Solving AotP

idk

Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

It might sound statistically inaccurate but it in fact happened.

Did I say it never happens? No.

You said it is usually the case and that is what is incorrect. I doubt any server is that consistent.

If ash is yellow then ash will usually not be under siege. If it is blue both ash and a back keep get hit at the same time. Ash is usually under siege because DC forces are drawn away to the north to fight EP. It might be under siege by pugs but if it is blue it usually happens while this is going on. And it will be the pugs(+ maybe guild) that usually attack along that lane and are meeting less resistance. It may happen that ash falls first then a back keep is targeted or both at the same time it depends on the ebb and flow and calculus of pug/guild movements. I left out "if ash is blue it is usually under siege at the same time".

I find it odd your campaign lacks the dynamics I see in my Vivec campaign. Each faction, depending on the day and time, tends to push out from their home keeps or gets pushed back. When they push out they may go more in one direction than another since the faction are not perfectly balanced in numbers or organization so consistently as you seem to describe.

Must be hard for your alliance to never crown anyone Emperor which would be so difficult with what you describe is a virtual constant in your campaign.

Sorry to hear that.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

Wow. I guess that I am not the only one who is very frustrated by the poor performance and the 80+ zergs. It is getting where the game is completely unplayable. The PVP guild I am in can barely get 12 to 16 on any given night and we constantly run into these multiple stacked groups. It takes no skill to blob kill a smaller group. No challenge at all. Yes, I sometimes find it amusing that a 50+ year old arthritic disabled woman like me has to have a group of more than 8 people to kill me. Really? 8 to 1? Wow, either that 8 are extremely poor players or I am better than I thought.

Mind you, ZOS did try to fix things by giving us three more outposts. It isn't working. The server performance is horrific and being disconnected from the game multiple times is really getting old. Maybe ZOS needs to start LOWERING the amount of AP gained if there is over a certain number of players in one area. You know if you have more than a 3 to 1 ratio, then you get only 50% of the amount of AP and go upwards from there. If you have over 6 to 1 odds or greater, then no AP gain at all. That might stop the 80+ zergs.

Anyways, the horrible performance and overwhelming blob groups are causing the other players to not want to play or log in. Several people have decided to take a break if not leave completely. I myself logged out tonight not sure if I want to ever log back in. PVP is basically all I do in ESO, and I just got my 5 year badge. This has been my only MMO ever. I will probably log in tomorrow as my guild needs me, but I will be just as frustrated with the game.

Sparr0w

Was horrible last night, 2 bars of each faction at 1 place... was disconnect central.

Thoragaal

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

Mind you, ZOS did try to fix things by giving us three more outposts. It isn't working. The server performance is horrific and being disconnected from the game multiple times is really getting old. Maybe ZOS needs to start LOWERING the amount of AP gained if there is over a certain number of players in one area. You know if you have more than a 3 to 1 ratio, then you get only 50% of the amount of AP and go upwards from there. If you have over 6 to 1 odds or greater, then no AP gain at all. That might stop the 80+ zergs.

Even if all AP was removed you would still have people running in huge groups because of the momentum it brings.

What you Could do, is having some sort of "event" happening. Let's say you're in a group of 80, attacking a keep of 30, there could be like a random "zap" mechanic from Molag Bal (or what ever) that kills Everything (camps, siege weapons) and Everyone (including defenders) at the same time on, let's say, the area around Ash.

It would completely disrupt the momentum of said group. It would encourage people to spread out on the map, because having 80 players suddenly die costs the alliance a lot of potential gain.
People are playing to avoid losing, not so much to actually gain as much AP as possible.

Kadoin

Thoragaal wrote: »

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

Mind you, ZOS did try to fix things by giving us three more outposts. It isn't working. The server performance is horrific and being disconnected from the game multiple times is really getting old. Maybe ZOS needs to start LOWERING the amount of AP gained if there is over a certain number of players in one area. You know if you have more than a 3 to 1 ratio, then you get only 50% of the amount of AP and go upwards from there. If you have over 6 to 1 odds or greater, then no AP gain at all. That might stop the 80+ zergs.

Even if all AP was removed you would still have people running in huge groups because of the momentum it brings.

What you Could do, is having some sort of "event" happening. Let's say you're in a group of 80, attacking a keep of 30, there could be like a random "zap" mechanic from Molag Bal (or what ever) that kills Everything (camps, siege weapons) and Everyone (including defenders) at the same time on, let's say, the area around Ash.

It would completely disrupt the momentum of said group. It would encourage people to spread out on the map, because having 80 players suddenly die costs the alliance a lot of potential gain.
People are playing to avoid losing, not so much to actually gain as much AP as possible.

I'd rather have negating sieges. Let me cover the world with negate without being a sorc. I don't care if it only drops at dolmen in Cyrodil or cost 5K AP each, I'd farm them just to punish ball groups.

Thoragaal

Kadoin wrote: »

I'd rather have negating sieges. Let me cover the world with negate without being a sorc. I don't care if it only drops at dolmen in Cyrodil or cost 5K AP each, I'd farm them just to punish ball groups.

Yeah that would be cool.
But it doesn't solve the issue of having so many people at the same area that everything lags to bits; bar-swapping doesn't work, can't break free of CC's, siege weapons wont fire.

Ranger209

evivnada wrote: »

Your analogy is absurd. Most of us pay to play a game.. they are getting paid to maintain the game.

It would be absurd for you to think we should walk on eggshells because they don't fix the game.

No its not, every engine has its limits, to purposely drive that engine beyond its limits and expect everything to be ok is absurd

Ranger209

Recremen wrote: »

_Crow wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

_Crow wrote: »

We split up our raids more then half the time tonight, and DC and AD still could not even get their scrolls back while we were on LOL, before you guys judge us, maybe you should run in one of our raids and see for yourself how it is . Our doors are always opened!

Anyway, see you guys out there!

Honey, people are trying to be polite over here. It's not a good idea to poke the lion, as it were.

Sweetie, I have been leading raids of all kinds for 3+ years, and I have learned that all the toxic and pathetic small man AD/DC groups, and failed "zone generals" are just above the FD NPC's as far as their impact in Cyro and zone chat goes. Not to mention they are pure cancer for the PvP community. The only opinion I give 2 craps about are other raid leads of guilds that make PvP worth playing and my amazing guild members

Cool, then maybe respect my opinion, as one of the raid leads for Fantasia, when I tell you that people are trying to be polite here and that gloating about a single good night is in incredibly poor form, by your own standards, by disparaging the efforts of an entire faction. And I don't know how it is on EP, as I rarely play my EP character, but the "zone generals" on AD are not especially toxic and average out to be somewhere around "pretty chill". It's rather rude to go calling these well-meaning people "pure cancer" when on average they help vocalize valuable map objectives and get the ball rolling on faction coordination.

People generally project themselves onto others.

VaranisArano

Ranger209 wrote: »

evivnada wrote: »

Your analogy is absurd. Most of us pay to play a game.. they are getting paid to maintain the game.

It would be absurd for you to think we should walk on eggshells because they don't fix the game.

No its not, every engine has its limits, to purposely drive that engine beyond its limits and expect everything to be ok is absurd

The problem I have with this argument is that its not beyond the limits of the engine, unless ZOS broke Cyrodiil and can't fix it.

Cyrodiil was better than this in the past. Certainly ZOS made changes from the beginning, but I would say that PC/NA Vivec is worse now performance-wise than at the end of Trueflame or even at Morrowind when we had a higher PVP population.

If ZOS can't fix Cyrodiil, I think its time for them to admit it and change the objectives to account for the lower overall population.

But until ZOS actually admits that and changes the objectives, I'm going to continue playing the way I like to play - large scale objective based play - because thats what Cyrodiil is there for. And I will continue to hold ZOS accountable for fixing the game so I and everyone else can play how its intended.

Hold ZOS accountable - either for fixes or honesty that they can't fix it. Otherwise, we aren't going to get either fixes or a change in player behavior.

gabriebe

As a 99% DC player, I'm just wondering where those 5 raids of DC you're talking about are. The only real zerg we got is IA, and they run 2 groups for like 3 hours at best. Every other time, it's mostly semi-closed guild groups capping around 15. And they dont always run at the same time, so a lot of em just call it early because they're the only ones pushing anything,


We've all seen the AotP zombie zerg... some real creativity went into stacking 70 players with 32k HP on flags.

NBrookus

Kadoin wrote: »

If someone wants to stack a bunch of idiots to chase one to three people, I say let them. But when the servers are empty and they roll around with no competition, they should not come to the forums and start talking about "how to save PvP,"

Sadly, we've had that discussion in the past. The people who zerg a server into the toilet where the other factions kust leave call that "winning." See also: Shor. Guilds that care about performance and balance have a history of re-rolling factions to help balance things out.

Thoragaal wrote: »

Even if all AP was removed you would still have people running in huge groups because of the momentum it brings.

Agree, people don't zerg for AP. You can make much better AP getting zerged than the other way around as long as you are getting kills.

Thoragaal wrote: »

What you Could do, is having some sort of "event" happening. Let's say you're in a group of 80, attacking a keep of 30, there could be like a random "zap" mechanic from Molag Bal (or what ever) that kills Everything (camps, siege weapons) and Everyone (including defenders) at the same time on, let's say, the area around Ash.

Like a veilstorm?

Elong

_Crow wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

_Crow wrote: »

We split up our raids more then half the time tonight, and DC and AD still could not even get their scrolls back while we were on LOL, before you guys judge us, maybe you should run in one of our raids and see for yourself how it is . Our doors are always opened!

Anyway, see you guys out there!

Honey, people are trying to be polite over here. It's not a good idea to poke the lion, as it were.

Sweetie, I have been leading raids of all kinds for 3+ years, and I have learned that all the toxic and pathetic small man AD/DC groups, and failed "zone generals" are just above the FD NPC's as far as their impact in Cyro and zone chat goes. Not to mention they are pure cancer for the PvP community. The only opinion I give 2 craps about are other raid leads of guilds that make PvP worth playing and my amazing guild members

It's always charming to see someone bite the hand that fed you.

You do you though Crow, just don't forget that you told me the real reason you run 80 people is because it's fun to lag the server and you're aiming for 100 people. That it's not for training new people in pvp, it's for your ego. I still remember that whisper, your original post here is unfortunately a facade.

Quite a few EP have permanently swapped factions due to your actions too which is sad for everyone involved and makes EP a weaker faction.

But all the best, it's summer here, I'll be out enjoying the weather at the time you destroy people's ability to pvp on an already broken server

Thoragaal

Ranger209 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

What you Could do, is having some sort of "event" happening. Let's say you're in a group of 80, attacking a keep of 30, there could be like a random "zap" mechanic from Molag Bal (or what ever) that kills Everything (camps, siege weapons) and Everyone (including defenders) at the same time on, let's say, the area around Ash.

Like a veilstorm?

I'm not entierly sure what a veilstorm is, but yeah. As long as it just kills everything and everyone, forcing people to run there if they wanna risk it all again
It's just a random idea I came up with on the spot. But making people spread out more can be done. That's the point.

Sanct16

Guys, I have the solution: Let's nerf ball groups!

Ruckly

Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

It might sound statistically inaccurate but it in fact happened.

Did I say it never happens? No.

You said it is usually the case and that is what is incorrect. I doubt any server is that consistent.

If ash is yellow then ash will usually not be under siege. If it is blue both ash and a back keep get hit at the same time. Ash is usually under siege because DC forces are drawn away to the north to fight EP. It might be under siege by pugs but if it is blue it usually happens while this is going on. And it will be the pugs(+ maybe guild) that usually attack along that lane and are meeting less resistance. It may happen that ash falls first then a back keep is targeted or both at the same time it depends on the ebb and flow and calculus of pug/guild movements. I left out "if ash is blue it is usually under siege at the same time".

I find it odd your campaign lacks the dynamics I see in my Vivec campaign. Each faction, depending on the day and time, tends to push out from their home keeps or gets pushed back. When they push out they may go more in one direction than another since the faction are not perfectly balanced in numbers or organization so consistently as you seem to describe.

Must be hard for your alliance to never crown anyone Emperor which would be so difficult with what you describe is a virtual constant in your campaign.

Sorry to hear that.

_Crow

Elong wrote: »

_Crow wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

_Crow wrote: »

We split up our raids more then half the time tonight, and DC and AD still could not even get their scrolls back while we were on LOL, before you guys judge us, maybe you should run in one of our raids and see for yourself how it is . Our doors are always opened!

Anyway, see you guys out there!

Honey, people are trying to be polite over here. It's not a good idea to poke the lion, as it were.

Sweetie, I have been leading raids of all kinds for 3+ years, and I have learned that all the toxic and pathetic small man AD/DC groups, and failed "zone generals" are just above the FD NPC's as far as their impact in Cyro and zone chat goes. Not to mention they are pure cancer for the PvP community. The only opinion I give 2 craps about are other raid leads of guilds that make PvP worth playing and my amazing guild members

It's always charming to see someone bite the hand that fed you.

You do you though Crow, just don't forget that you told me the real reason you run 80 people is because it's fun to lag the server and you're aiming for 100 people. That it's not for training new people in pvp, it's for your ego. I still remember that whisper, your original post here is unfortunately a facade.

Quite a few EP have permanently swapped factions due to your actions too which is sad for everyone involved and makes EP a weaker faction.

But all the best, it's summer here, I'll be out enjoying the weather at the time you destroy people's ability to pvp on an already broken server

Elong... if you don't understand sarcasm or that 99% of what i say is me joking... then you are too far gone

Mintaka5

I'd also like to note that @_Crow also kicks players from his guild without warrant, and really only caters to his buddies in AP

_Crow wrote: »

AP helps players that guilds have closed their doors to, that like teamwork, like a chill environment, and want to learn more about the basics of PvP

LIES ^^^^^

NBrookus

Thoragaal wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

Thoragaal wrote: »

What you Could do, is having some sort of "event" happening. Let's say you're in a group of 80, attacking a keep of 30, there could be like a random "zap" mechanic from Molag Bal (or what ever) that kills Everything (camps, siege weapons) and Everyone (including defenders) at the same time on, let's say, the area around Ash.

Like a veilstorm?

I'm not entierly sure what a veilstorm is, but yeah. As long as it just kills everything and everyone, forcing people to run there if they wanna risk it all again
It's just a random idea I came up with on the spot. But making people spread out more can be done. That's the point.

It's a major mechanic in an upcoming RvR MMO, where the Veil is a sentient (non-friendly) entity that gets irritated by too much magic in one place and causes a storm which can have various levels of power and effects and changing spells. The Veil is also where the "invisibility" class goes, except they can all see each other there.

Basically, exactly what you said.

Red_Nine

Hey this thread is getting pretty circular. Let's call a stalemate. Some of us think others should play a certain way to make up for deficiencies in the game, others don't. Seems like no amount of discussion is going to change that.

What we should really be focusing on is putting pressure on ZOS to stabilize the game. There was a time when hundreds of players could be in the same area at the same time without severe lag.

zyk

Faction stacks can happen organically without any coordination. They suck, but ultimately the design of the game is to blame when they happen like this.

However, the individuals who lead massive raids and make the decision to stack 48-72+ players in one place are disgusting.

pzschrek

Why are we whining? Play someplace else while they’re on. I do.

usmcjdking

I literally cannot imagine the mindset I would need to ruin the actual gaming performance/experience for a ton of people for no other reason than it's fun.

Sounds like someone who failed the incredibly unfailable ASVAB and is trying to make up for it elsewhere.

barshemm

I've been having fun in shor prime time

VaranisArano

usmcjdking wrote: »

I literally cannot imagine the mindset I would need to ruin the actual gaming performance/experience for a ton of people for no other reason than it's fun.

Sounds like someone who failed the incredibly unfailable ASVAB and is trying to make up for it elsewhere.

Try this on for a thought exercise. You like playing as coordinated team of 12 to 24 players, fighting other organized groups for campaign objectives. The enemy has one last emp keep and one of your scrolls.

You aren't going to bring just one raid because the enemy won't. You arent going to ignore the dethrone. You want your scroll back. Fun for you means fighting for that dethrone and the scroll against a very spirited defense, plus the other faction weighing in.

And yes, that last emp keep dethrone and scroll take turns into a fustercluck of lag and disconnects because ZOS can't happen it when its 3 raids vs 2 raids vs 1 raid all in the same location fighting for the dethrone/scroll take.

That fight is Cyrodiil's objectives working as designed, pulling in tons of players for important things like the dethrone, who defense, and a scroll now worth 10 points.

The fight is also a ton of fun for anyone who doesn't DC 5 times the second they get close to the keep. (That was me)

The lag and disconnects are ZOS hands down failing to handle something they designed into the game - players swarming to take important objectives.


It doesn't take deliberate action to produce game crippling lag anymore. All it takes is players going "look, a dethrone and a scroll! Those are important! We should go there!" Which is exactly what campaign minded players are supposed to do!

But maybe you think we shouldn't stack up on important objectives and should play ring around the resource instead? That certainly produces less lag....

ShadowProc

Sanct16 wrote: »

Guys, I have the solution: Let's nerf ball groups!

I tried that. Suggested nerfing rapids to align with all other forms of speed nerfs .

unfortunately I got zerged down by a couple guilds. Oh well. I simply don’t log in anymore.

Ahtu

Ruckly wrote: »

Presently during prime-time NA Vivec an 80 man group sweeps across dc territory taking all keeps in its path. Fighting this group head on results in siege not firing and disconnects. In is also difficult to kill 80 that fight in echelons since negate will never hit all 80 and you can only bomb a chunk at a time plus all the heal stacking. The current solution is to back cap and try and fight half at a time. However at the same time the 80 man group sweeps across the map a 40 man AD group will take the keep that needs to be back capped.

Problem: How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects? Or if that is not possible how do you create time to fight 40 man group defending keep that needs to be back capped without losing scrolls?

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

How do you defeat an army? Form your own army and have competent raid leads. An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep.

frozywozy

Ahtu wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Presently during prime-time NA Vivec an 80 man group sweeps across dc territory taking all keeps in its path. Fighting this group head on results in siege not firing and disconnects. In is also difficult to kill 80 that fight in echelons since negate will never hit all 80 and you can only bomb a chunk at a time plus all the heal stacking. The current solution is to back cap and try and fight half at a time. However at the same time the 80 man group sweeps across the map a 40 man AD group will take the keep that needs to be back capped.

Problem: How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects? Or if that is not possible how do you create time to fight 40 man group defending keep that needs to be back capped without losing scrolls?

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

How do you defeat an army? Form you own army and have competent raid leads. An army of sheep led by a lion is better than an army of lions led by a sheep.

Lions don't need to stack with 80 sheeps to hunt thought.

Dreyloch

I know ZoS would never make this happen, but I'll put it out here anyway. The game needs a Dremoric faction of NPC's. I'm not talking about the AI of the pitiful guards at keeps now. I'm talking about full on Hard mode, epic vet trial mobs.

They could just suddenly portal out of nowhere, near a random Keep and use abilities instead of siege to take down walls or doors. Again, totally random. It could happen at any keep on the map. No favoritism towards any faction. Just a suitable location to spread forces out all over the map. Hopefully, enabling less lag across all of Cyrodiil. EDIT: They can actually take the Keep for less points to that faction, but not scrolls.

Another solution. Eliminate playing the faction our characters are. Your just tossed in at the start of the campaign. The server keeps track and turns off enrollment if one faction gets too many until things even out. You might play for AD one month, and DC the next. Kinda like the one tamriel idea of dungeon grps. This enables everyone to move around, without the hassle of making new toons to play on different factions, while equalizing the populations.Basically, new randomly picked forces for each faction each month. The current way things are simply needs to change. You can still form groups or raids, they just won't be consistently the same people. I know there are a lot of players out there that just don't give a crap about faction loyalty anymore. They just want to go out and have good battles. The only downside is maybe your current PvP guild doesn't get all it's players that month on the same side in Cyrodiil.

So there OP, a couple of solutions that ZoS will never make happen =/

Red_Nine

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me.

Ruckly

zyk wrote: »

Faction stacks can happen organically without any coordination. They suck, but ultimately the design of the game is to blame when they happen like this.

However, the individuals who lead massive raids and make the decision to stack 48-72+ players in one place are disgusting.

Here's someone who understands the teleological perspective. Organic vs. Mechanical systems. The game is definitely more fun with 10-20 man guilds making up the mechanical component and others(pugs maybe) making up the organic component. The result is a greater variety of outcomes. It does result in a collapse on critical objectives however even in that case how it works is the organic component forms the infantry/artillery component of the battlefield whereas the guilds form the cavalry component. This is sort of how DC plays prime-time and IMO is the most fun for everyone since everyone is a relevant piece in the grand war. The brute force mechanical 80 man echelons is reminiscent of the soviet doctrine of war and lacks spirit and art. If not for lag it could be defeated e.g.:

clever alchemist + war maiden + inevitable detonation(5+ second cast in lag)

clever alchemist + vicious death + soul shatter(requires a negate and pressure to offset heal stack but killing blow does ~35kish aoe damage for 100 ult)

scatter shot catapults(scattershot catapult is busy doesn't fire)

clever alchemist + swift/immovable pot + shalks + eye of the storm + elemental ring spam(getting all this in with lag should work if you have the numbers yourself to create even more lag and shut down enemy skills while this rolls over the enemy but negate in numbers stops this)

The hard counters don't work because of lag.