Solving AotP

Ruckly

Presently during prime-time NA Vivec an 80 man group sweeps across dc territory taking all keeps in its path. Fighting this group head on results in siege not firing and disconnects. In is also difficult to kill 80 that fight in echelons since negate will never hit all 80 and you can only bomb a chunk at a time plus all the heal stacking. The current solution is to back cap and try and fight half at a time. However at the same time the 80 man group sweeps across the map a 40 man AD group will take the keep that needs to be back capped.

Problem: How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects? Or if that is not possible how do you create time to fight 40 man group defending keep that needs to be back capped without losing scrolls?

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

Recremen

Ruckly wrote: »

Presently during prime-time NA Vivec an 80 man group sweeps across dc territory taking all keeps in its path. Fighting this group head on results in siege not firing and disconnects. In is also difficult to kill 80 that fight in echelons since negate will never hit all 80 and you can only bomb a chunk at a time plus all the heal stacking. The current solution is to back cap and try and fight half at a time. However at the same time the 80 man group sweeps across the map a 40 man AD group will take the keep that needs to be back capped.

Problem: How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects? Or if that is not possible how do you create time to fight 40 man group defending keep that needs to be back capped without losing scrolls?

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

EDIT :

I take it back, I thought you were talking about lag in general, I didn't realize "AotP" was the rebranded name for Pact Militia. The quality of fights have really gone dowhill since they started stacking this many. It's shameful, and the amount of rude and unsportspersonlike behavior they encourage in their players is despicable.

Ruckly

Recremen wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Presently during prime-time NA Vivec an 80 man group sweeps across dc territory taking all keeps in its path. Fighting this group head on results in siege not firing and disconnects. In is also difficult to kill 80 that fight in echelons since negate will never hit all 80 and you can only bomb a chunk at a time plus all the heal stacking. The current solution is to back cap and try and fight half at a time. However at the same time the 80 man group sweeps across the map a 40 man AD group will take the keep that needs to be back capped.

Problem: How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects? Or if that is not possible how do you create time to fight 40 man group defending keep that needs to be back capped without losing scrolls?

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

If you're talking about PC NA on Vivec, there are plenty of very competent DC guilds who can help lead the defense. If your faction isn't trying to coordinate with them during primetime to field an equivalent force wherever this "80-person group" is showing up, then it's time to have a discussion with your faction about why that's happening. We've seen time and again that DC usually has no problem getting 80 people to show up to a keep, so just get back to wherever that was with your people.

As for siege not firing/disconnects, that's being experienced by everyone, not just DC. Same for facing a war on two fronts. We've all got that issue. Coordinate, try to use the new destructible bridges/milegates to your advantage, etc.

This does not solve the stated problem. If siege does not fire(primary defense against numbers in a keep) then fielding an equal force might create a stalemate if the courtyard is held but really 80 vs 80 with unreliable siege is a coin flip and AotP throws waves so odds are in the attackers favor and all this takes time. Besides that the fielded defense of 80 uses all of DC's resources and the 40 man AD group gets a free hand. Furthermore glade outer can be sieged from a position that can't be counter-sieged. If a keep can't be defended with less defenders than attackers then the point of a keep is defeated.

On top of this AotP gets the initiative since they chose where they are and where they are not. They show up at a keep, 15 seconds later it is flagged. Unless all DC stand at transitus waiting for AotP to show up somewhere then all port at the same time to tender said 80 man defense said 80 man defense will not materialize. If all DC is standing at transitus waiting for one 80 man group they have to counter-play.

Your solution does not work.

NBrookus

For those who don't know, AP is Crow's new(ish) guild and picks up randoms in zone.

At a certain time of the day, DC stacks up to 5 raids deep.
Lately, AD has had this hive mind thing going on and forms a single multi-guild zerg everywhere.
Then late prime, AP rolls and no doubt has a train of surfers, too. The lag is unplayable at that hour anyway.

Every faction gets double-teamed and every faction forms zergs. If it's a 3-way pop-lock as it usually is in prime time, you aren't actually outnumbered, you just have an internal coordination problem. (As does every faction.)

I want to see Innocents Abroad and Army of the Pact log on at the same time of day and go head to head once. From a safe distance, where I won't need to attempt to cast any skills or move out of the way...

WaltherCarraway

solve bee swarm midnight pst before this kthx

Ruckly

NBrookus wrote: »

For those who don't know, AP is Crow's new(ish) guild and picks up randoms in zone.

At a certain time of the day, DC stacks up to 5 raids deep.
Lately, AD has had this hive mind thing going on and forms a single multi-guild zerg everywhere.
Then late prime, AP rolls and no doubt has a train of surfers, too. The lag is unplayable at that hour anyway.

Every faction gets double-teamed and every faction forms zergs. If it's a 3-way pop-lock as it usually is in prime time, you aren't actually outnumbered, you just have an internal coordination problem. (As does every faction.)

I want to see Innocents Abroad and Army of the Pact log on at the same time of day and go head to head once. From a safe distance, where I won't need to attempt to cast any skills or move out of the way...

Ideally every DC player where ever they are as long as they are in combat can spam Equilibrium and drink a ravage health pot and bloodport to defend a keep or even use a 20k AP keep recall stone(not happening over and over) in order to field an equal number against AotP at a particular keep and be coordinated but this is an ideal solution. A real applicable solution gets the check mark.

Said situation happens during prime-time which makes it worse. Without a real applicable solution the whole game is pulled over for one group until they are spent then normal pvp can resume. Logging out for 2 hours while DC gets gated and going outside to do yardwork or whatever does work as an ideal solution but at a point loss and makes the idea of PPT and playing for 1st a vain one.

NirnStorm

NBrookus wrote: »

I want to see Innocents Abroad and Army of the Pact log on at the same time of day and go head to head once. From a safe distance, where I won't need to attempt to cast any skills or move out of the way...

pzschrek

I know when AotP is running because I have skill lag at the gate. I go somewhere else

NBrookus

Shhhhh, @NirnStorm . I heard AP and DIG gvg'd and the server's didn't die. Although afterwards one hamster had to be retired early.

Ruckly wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

For those who don't know, AP is Crow's new(ish) guild and picks up randoms in zone.

At a certain time of the day, DC stacks up to 5 raids deep.
Lately, AD has had this hive mind thing going on and forms a single multi-guild zerg everywhere.
Then late prime, AP rolls and no doubt has a train of surfers, too. The lag is unplayable at that hour anyway.

Every faction gets double-teamed and every faction forms zergs. If it's a 3-way pop-lock as it usually is in prime time, you aren't actually outnumbered, you just have an internal coordination problem. (As does every faction.)

I want to see Innocents Abroad and Army of the Pact log on at the same time of day and go head to head once. From a safe distance, where I won't need to attempt to cast any skills or move out of the way...

Ideally every DC player where ever they are as long as they are in combat can spam Equilibrium and drink a ravage health pot and bloodport to defend a keep or even use a 20k AP keep recall stone(not happening over and over) in order to field an equal number against AotP at a particular keep and be coordinated but this is an ideal solution. A real applicable solution gets the check mark.

Said situation happens during prime-time which makes it worse. Without a real applicable solution the whole game is pulled over for one group until they are spent then normal pvp can resume. Logging out for 2 hours while DC gets gated and going outside to do yardwork or whatever does work as an ideal solution but at a point loss and makes the idea of PPT and playing for 1st a vain one.

I sympathize with the pain. There's nothing like 50% of EP pointlessly being at Ales farm when we are losing scrolls. All I can say is that it happens to every faction. I've played all 3 at varying times of the day, so that's not a guess but a fact of Cyrodiil.

For something you, as a DC player in prime time, can do? Talk to some of the DC guilds who'd rather stealth at a resource and 20v1 while you are getting zerged at Ales. Good luck, you'll need it. But there's no reason some of those guilds who aim to farm AP shouldn't be trying to draw aggro away from your sensitive keeps. If they are decently organized, it's better AP for them, too. Win win.

If you are a solo player, you can troll siege strategic transit points or just to draw off numbers. It's a suicide mission, but it can be quite effective.

Ruckly

50% of EP being at ales farm makes sense since they are typically pushing ales and into dc territory and dc has to push back(at prime time with even populations). Splitting half your forces against one faction and half against the other gets lag down and results in better battles.

As far as AP farming goes someone has to pay for the forward camps. I don't think this affects DC's defense when AotP starts firing their echelons. And hence is not a solution to the above stated problem.

Vapirko

You go play BGs, migrate to another campaign or log off.

frozywozy

Like mentioned in this thread already, there is a certain guild in EP formed by a player who enjoy stacking 3 raids on top of each other willingly. He does it because he enjoys to lead as many people as possible, no matter the consequences. He does not care if the server performances are super chaotic while he rolls around Cyrodiil spamming healing springs and purges on 60-80players, he does not care about the lag for everyone, it makes him laugh.

While I understand that every faction can come up with 60-80players at the same place, I haven't seen DIG run that many players in Vivec in a very long time and if they do, it's very rare. This being said, 60-80players spamming aoes in a coordinated manner is the biggest factor that can have drastic consequences in Cyrodiil. Especially when all the populations are maxed and even worse when there are multiple fights happening on the map at once.

There are two things that will kill this game. First, ZOS not investing and putting the resources to fix the game. Second, the players who blame it on ZOS 100% and won't do any effort to make it better for everyone.

barshemm

If AotP is actually managing to coordinate aoe and run like ball groups with that many pugs, that's pretty amazing. Maybe if they do it enough ZOS will finally either fix their code or do something to discourage the ball groups that screw up the server.

IA was always sheer numbers and good at dropping siege for bursting a keep. Not very coordinated in combat at all. Lots and lots of heals but not much damage.

VaranisArano

Cyrodiil is designed to encourage players to stack at important objectives. When I (and many others) disconnect 5 times trying to dethrone an emperor at a keep that has our scroll, thats not the fault of the players stacking there for two important objectives.

Its ZOS's fault for failing to fix the performance issues with Cyrodiil.

Ultimately, the fix has to come from ZOS. No amount of complaining about players faction stacking is going to change that.

Recremen

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is designed to encourage players to stack at important objectives. When I (and many others) disconnect 5 times trying to dethrone an emperor at a keep that has our scroll, thats not the fault of the players stacking there for two important objectives.

Its ZOS's fault for failing to fix the performance issues with Cyrodiil.

Ultimately, the fix has to come from ZOS. No amount of complaining about players faction stacking is going to change that.

The socially-conscious person in me wants to agree with frozy and say that we all have a responsibility to each other as members of the community, and we should probably try to not stack quite so much. The realist in me knows that on average people can't be counted on to individually come to this conclusion on their own, regrets that we have no good central location to raise awareness of the issue because not everyone is on the forums/reddit/etc., and is ultimately resigned to joining the stack on occasion if the objective is important enough/we keep facing overwhelming numbers when trying to break off on our own.

Ramber

Isn't this taking advantage of a glitch or broken part of the game and shouldn't a stop be put to it? I mean if people are knowingly taking advantage of other aspects of the game people get punished or they submit an incremental patch to fix it? or is that just when you make too much gold or something?

IDK i just hate that i cant PvP.. maybe we could throttle abilities to lesson the burden on the servers causing lag? yeah yeah we can just give everyone 3 abilities instead of 5 per bar and see how that works??

i think i'm on to something there

_Crow

My guild (AP not AoTOP ), Is pulling players into Cyro that have never played before, people are logging in to just play with us in mass. What's funny is that WAY more people like Zerging then don't... which is why Zergs are a thing LOL.

People hate on us every night, but the funny thing is, the other big guilds that bring in the most players into PvP that actually do stuff in cyro and make PvP better, don't hate us, and even want to GvG us! The people hating on us are the "Zone generals" that no one wants around anymore because Guilds have taken over, and solo players that zerg surf, cry about zergs, and don't go play in Shor for some reason.

AP helps players that guilds have closed their doors to, that like teamwork, like a chill environment, and want to learn more about the basics of PvP

We now split up our 72+ man raids when we need to and take multiple keeps at once, and if AD or DC stack, we are going to stack when we need to. We are growing bigger every day and we are going to keep helping new players, and we are going to keep getting more powerful, so get used to seeing us

HaroniNDeorum

72, oh my god...

idk

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

Ruckly

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

It might sound statistically inaccurate but it in fact happened.

Ruckly

_Crow wrote: »

My guild (AP not AoTOP ), Is pulling players into Cyro that have never played before, people are logging in to just play with us in mass. What's funny is that WAY more people like Zerging then don't... which is why Zergs are a thing LOL.

People hate on us every night, but the funny thing is, the other big guilds that bring in the most players into PvP that actually do stuff in cyro and make PvP better, don't hate us, and even want to GvG us! The people hating on us are the "Zone generals" that no one wants around anymore because Guilds have taken over, and solo players that zerg surf, cry about zergs, and don't go play in Shor for some reason.

AP helps players that guilds have closed their doors to, that like teamwork, like a chill environment, and want to learn more about the basics of PvP

We now split up our 72+ man raids when we need to and take multiple keeps at once, and if AD or DC stack, we are going to stack when we need to. We are growing bigger every day and we are going to keep helping new players, and we are going to keep getting more powerful, so get used to seeing us

I haven't heard anyone say they don't want me around . It might be possible people don't want me around. I'm not going to insinuate anything from what you say. I don't know you. I certainly did not expect this thread to take a cosmopolitan spin. The intent of the thread was to look for a solution to the above stated problem.

Problem: How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects? Or if that is not possible how do you create time to fight 40 man group defending keep that needs to be back capped without losing scrolls?

idk

Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

It might sound statistically inaccurate but it in fact happened.

Did I say it never happens? No.

You said it is usually the case and that is what is incorrect. I doubt any server is that consistent.

Ruckly

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

It should be noted ash is usually under siege at the same time so it's a double faction stack.

I do not know what server you are on and it really does not matter. This last sentence in the OP seems to be statistically inaccurate. Often one side has pushed further than the other side so both of the keeps you speak of would usually not be under attack at the same time.

More importantly, as has been pointed out, it takes leadership of groups and coordination between them to stop large groups such as those described in the OP. Heck, the group that is mentioned in the OP is obviously coordinating among their leadership and nothing short of that should be expected for countering them.

Of the couple servers I have played on there have been capable leaders in each faction and I expect that is the case across the board, but I may be wrong because IDK.

It might sound statistically inaccurate but it in fact happened.

Did I say it never happens? No.

You said it is usually the case and that is what is incorrect. I doubt any server is that consistent.

If ash is yellow then ash will usually not be under siege. If it is blue both ash and a back keep get hit at the same time. Ash is usually under siege because DC forces are drawn away to the north to fight EP. It might be under siege by pugs but if it is blue it usually happens while this is going on. And it will be the pugs(+ maybe guild) that usually attack along that lane and are meeting less resistance. It may happen that ash falls first then a back keep is targeted or both at the same time it depends on the ebb and flow and calculus of pug/guild movements. I left out "if ash is blue it is usually under siege at the same time".

biminirwb17_ESO

My experience of guilds running multiple groups (as mentioned 72+) is that they disband. It is fun for a while to steamroll the map, win every battle do as you please, but it gets boring.

Have fun while it lasts, cos it will end, it always does.

frozywozy

_Crow wrote: »

My guild (AP not AoTOP ), Is pulling players into Cyro that have never played before, people are logging in to just play with us in mass. What's funny is that WAY more people like Zerging then don't... which is why Zergs are a thing LOL.

People hate on us every night, but the funny thing is, the other big guilds that bring in the most players into PvP that actually do stuff in cyro and make PvP better, don't hate us, and even want to GvG us! The people hating on us are the "Zone generals" that no one wants around anymore because Guilds have taken over, and solo players that zerg surf, cry about zergs, and don't go play in Shor for some reason.

AP helps players that guilds have closed their doors to, that like teamwork, like a chill environment, and want to learn more about the basics of PvP

We now split up our 72+ man raids when we need to and take multiple keeps at once, and if AD or DC stack, we are going to stack when we need to. We are growing bigger every day and we are going to keep helping new players, and we are going to keep getting more powerful, so get used to seeing us

Your post is full of positivism, empathy, ambition and devotion for the community but not once mentioned how bad performances have been since you have started running with that many players.

Before you made your guild, I spent some time with Vae-Victus officers, providing them with assistance in hope they would reduce their numbers and stop the crashes when approaching a keep where they were.

Then they decided to take a break from the game and you took over where they left and made it even worse. Not only because you run twice their numbers but also because you actually have no intention to reduce your numbers, even if your group get better. You enjoy that playstyle, no matter the consequences.

You mentioned that sometimes you split your 3 raids to hit different keeps. This is fairly new and I am glad you are doing it. This is exactly how we won Thornblade so many times. By splitting groups and guilds and coordinate attacks on multiple objectives at once. Doing this have so many advantages. It helps performances on the server, it is extremely beneficial for the faction to gain territory and finally, it helps people get better at the game by not stacking with 60-80players.

I hope that you will keep training new raid leaders and send each group at a different spot. Stacking should never be a solution, even when the enemy does. Not until the servers get better and can support 60vs60 fights with organized / coordinated aoes.

courier

Does this happen on #weekdays?

VaranisArano

Recremen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cyrodiil is designed to encourage players to stack at important objectives. When I (and many others) disconnect 5 times trying to dethrone an emperor at a keep that has our scroll, thats not the fault of the players stacking there for two important objectives.

Its ZOS's fault for failing to fix the performance issues with Cyrodiil.

Ultimately, the fix has to come from ZOS. No amount of complaining about players faction stacking is going to change that.

The socially-conscious person in me wants to agree with frozy and say that we all have a responsibility to each other as members of the community, and we should probably try to not stack quite so much. The realist in me knows that on average people can't be counted on to individually come to this conclusion on their own, regrets that we have no good central location to raise awareness of the issue because not everyone is on the forums/reddit/etc., and is ultimately resigned to joining the stack on occasion if the objective is important enough/we keep facing overwhelming numbers when trying to break off on our own.

The problem with this idea is that practically it amounts to saying "Guys, in the interests of playability for everyone, AD will only send one raid to defend their last emperor keep, DC will send one raid to dethrone, and EP will send 1 raid for the dethrone and their scroll. Wait, EP can have a 2nd raid for the scroll, so AD gets a 2nd raid to defend the scroll. " and so on.

That's silly (and as you pointed out, unenforceable). In this case, it was Roebeck that was a scroll keep and the last emp keep, but I've seen it happen for DC at Ash and EP at BRK. Those are important objectives drawing in players exactly as designed.

Its a crying shame that the servers can't handle players playing exactly as designed.

Thoragaal

Ruckly wrote: »

The intent of the thread was to look for a solution to the above stated problem.

Yeah I don't think you'll find a solution.
Cyrodiil has always been promoted as large scale combat by ZOS. The solution is to make an even bigger and meaner group of people ready to do the same and pray that ZOS sort what ever is causing the disasterous lag, delay and disconnects which is the consequences of it.

Mrsinister2

We need to solve the giant AD group that farms the same 10 ep and dc from 4am to 7am every day as well

Sandman929

_Crow wrote: »

My guild (AP not AoTOP ), Is pulling players into Cyro that have never played before, people are logging in to just play with us in mass. What's funny is that WAY more people like Zerging then don't... which is why Zergs are a thing LOL.

People hate on us every night, but the funny thing is, the other big guilds that bring in the most players into PvP that actually do stuff in cyro and make PvP better, don't hate us, and even want to GvG us! The people hating on us are the "Zone generals" that no one wants around anymore because Guilds have taken over, and solo players that zerg surf, cry about zergs, and don't go play in Shor for some reason.

AP helps players that guilds have closed their doors to, that like teamwork, like a chill environment, and want to learn more about the basics of PvP

We now split up our 72+ man raids when we need to and take multiple keeps at once, and if AD or DC stack, we are going to stack when we need to. We are growing bigger every day and we are going to keep helping new players, and we are going to keep getting more powerful, so get used to seeing us

All that is pretty admirable, but you must realize what kind of horrible gaming experience those numbers creates. Offering relative safety and fun PvP experience to players new to Cyrodiil is great, I certainly prefer that the ego-maniacal pre-teen measuring contest that fills zone chat, but don't you think there should be a tiny bit of moderation?
I can't imagine the gameplay is very stellar from within such a large stack either.

DeadlyRecluse

Ruckly wrote: »

How do you defend 80 man blob with siege not firing and disconnects?

You don't.

It's literally not worth finding a solution to this as a player. A well-coordinated ball group will chew up a horde of pugs, but outside of that there's nothing worth doing--and even that style gets defeated by disconnects and lag.

Play in Sotha or Shor. Play BGs. Play different parts of the map then the blob.

If the performance stayed great in these fights, it would be super fun to tease out ways to hurt zergs, but even the cleverest player isn't going to do much with half-second input delays.