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Bleed is killing PVP
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CatchMeTrolling✭✭✭✭✭
✭Think the main issue with bleeds is the fact they’re too easy to apply without any real sacrifice.2 -
Nemeliom✭✭✭✭Now that enchant procs are over I'm not encountering many bleed builds.Baradur Morker - Level 50 Bosmer Nightblade
Le-Duck - Level 50 Dark Elf Dragonknight
Boom-Stormer - Level 50 High Elf Sorcerer
Nemeliom the Great - Level 50 Redguard Warden
Crazy Little Maggie - Level 50 High Elf Templar0 -
Lutallo✭✭✭Hahaha the MagDK permablocker complaining about his only counter to an almost impenetrable defence. The forums never fail to disappoint."Rock is too OP, please nerf"
Sincerely, Scissors.8 -
TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's funny keeping up with this thread and the one i'll link below.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/444781/i-really-dont-get-how#latest
The issue I see with builds is Master DW. They should make the damage scale with how much resist/health your opponents have, and they maybe should tone down the axe and battle axe passive dots.PC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD2 -
Stigant✭✭✭✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Well neither blocking nor heavy armor does reduce the bleed ticks....
indeed!
So they are going exactly what the are supposed to, what's the problem?0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »Bleeds alone aren't really overpowered. You can do the same or more damage with your dots as a mDK with burning embers in light armor than a stam toon stacking weapon damage with rending.
The problem is other modifiers to bleeds. Master axes instantly makes rending outperform all other dots in pvp. Add to that the free bleed you get from axe passives, and then bleeds become a tad bit overwhelming compared to other dots.
Master axes are difficult to get, so I understand their power. The axe passive though is ridiculous when you think about balance. Originally, axes lent towards sustained damage, with swords for burst, and maces for tanky targets. Now with bleeds ignoring resists, maces have lost their niche. I think the damage for the bleed procs should be lowered and proc chance increased to better orient them to the dps niche.
All that matters is the final result and not how you got it.
And that, my fellow players, is the mantra of the ZOS balance team.
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Patro✭✭✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Well neither blocking nor heavy armor does reduce the bleed ticks....
indeed!
So they are going exactly what the are supposed to, what's the problem?
Bleed should work differently.0 -
Undefwun✭✭✭✭✭Why is insane 2-3 shot burst ok?Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC
Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP
Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Shuffle for the win
Rise of the DW mag builds0 -
WeylandLabs✭✭✭✭✭😂 Sounds like another class rep nerf incoming... They cant 1vX or win in duels so they nerf you all. Let's have another blackrose meta all over again. Or did you all forget about that ? Bleeds countered permablock high damage supertank builds in 2016. If you want that back, bring back proc set crits and every other cancerous thing in the game. Bleeds are fine just way they are... and it's good to have in PvE. But I took a long break, so I really don't care if it's nerfed or not. I just feel bad for the new players, everyone is one dementional now.
[Edit to remove reference to real-world politics]Edited by [Deleted User] on November 17, 2018 7:26PM1 -
Skander✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stop Permablocking.
Your welcome.
You don't understand. Block is the only thing that sets a dk alive.I meme, but my memes are so truthful they hurt
-Elder Nightblades Online
Want competitive pvp while being outnumbered? Tough luck, the devs clearly said you have to die in those situations1 -
NuarBlack✭✭✭✭Step one: Buff maces so they aren't worthless. Maybe up to 25-30% armor reduction and add greater stamina drain to blockers. In other words make maces the counter to high resistances and blockers so bleeds don't have to be.
Step two: make resistance mitigate bleeds but then buff bleeds slightly to be back in line with other dots in pve and so you actually have to devote some effort and make sacrifices elsewhere to make them work in pvp.0 -
iCelticOwnU✭✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Just make a templar and you can purge all those bleeds and DOTs off with purifying ritual, problem solved0 -
CompM4s✭✭✭✭✭Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.2 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.
Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.1 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Are they OP or is it just because a lot of folks run them?
Let's say all the folks who run them swapped to magsorcs, would there be threads crying about them because their death recaps would be filled with sorcy skills (ignoring obvious lolnerfsorc meme here)?They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.
Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.
Bleeds are not overpowered. They are improperly tuned, the difference being that bleeds are significantly stronger against squishier targets than they are the hard targets they were adjusted to counter. This needs to be fixed.
Dual Wield as a whole is absolutely absurd (I still do not understand the justification behind why having two smaller weapons yields > damage than a giant 2H weapon).
2H's Carve isn't much weaker than rending, and the HWB is the same tooltip as TB&B. No one cares about 2H bleeds because bleeds are not the fundamental problem at hand - DW is.0331
06021 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭True, bleeds are insane and is the definition of "a good offense is a good defense" right now. Fought some bleed builds in BGs and the damage output is insane that I am forced to just disengage when I see them.2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Because that's just what PvP on this game needed, more damage.
I do agree though, the bleeds/enchants are just ridiculous. They have completed ruined non-CP PvP with these changes. It's such a bad joke I could even program a better combat system.
Edited by Jeremy on November 16, 2018 12:19PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭iCelticOwnU wrote: »The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Just make a templar and you can purge all those bleeds and DOTs off with purifying ritual, problem solved
haha
Yeah...1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.
Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.
A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?
Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).8 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭
The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.
Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.
A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?
Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).
Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.
Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.
That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.
The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.
4 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭BlackMadara wrote: »
The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.
Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.
A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?
Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).
Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.
Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.
That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.
The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.
I color coded the blacking-out of players' names to differentiate them, and I'd consider all 3 that are showing up on the recap to be pretty solid. A few things to note:
1. The original screenshot is from October 29th, which is before I switched my Jewelry over to Protective (which would help vs Burning Embers, but not the bleeds).
2. Given the numbers I'm seeing, I had some combination of Minor Protection, Major Protection, and/or the Undeath Passive from Vampire active while I was taking this damage.
3. I'm a Stage 4 Vampire, so this flame damage from the DK is after receiving a substantial boost. Yet 5 ticks still did barely more damage than 2 ticks of a bleed.
I also have another screenshot from last night where I took 2x Rending Slashes ticks from 2 different players, coming in at 3,331 and 3,649, while a Mag DK's Flame Lash hit for 3,073. Who's getting better use out of their globals against a Stage 4 Vampire with substantial resists?
PS
I'm not saying that Mag DK needs some giant buffs or something; there are some that are capable of putting out some really heavy damage. But Stam has ruled the roost in Battlegrounds since BGs have been a thing, and the current overpoweredness of bleeds is a big contributing factor to that continued dominance.
Edit:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons. 'Course, it's hard for me to say that with any level of certainty since essentially all Stam at the high MMR in BGs are using Master DW...what sort of damage numbers are non-Master bleeds even doing?
Combining Master DW with Rending Slashes and proc'd bleeds, plus the lack of sacrifice to other facets of PvP that such a setup entails, puts Stam in a pretty ridiculous place right now. The difference in difficulty I face between fighting good Stam players vs good Magicka players is night and day, and bleeds are a big part of that.Edited by wheem_ESO on November 16, 2018 6:11PM2
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nDw3E9EgW5I
