Bleed is killing PVP

Ragnarock41

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Heres my 2 cents. Bleeds are balanced in CP and too strong in no-CP, I would like to see more of a middle by keeping bleeds the same in CP and nerfing them in no-CP. I think bleeds in CP could be strong but with how overturned healing is in CP you don't notice the DoT pressure as you do in no-CP. Bleed stacking in no-CP (particularly battlegrounds), against any class besides templars is absurd. Throw on 2-master axes, double DoT poisons, valkyn skoria, your choice of two bleed abilities (typically rending, poison injection, carve unless playing DK) and watch people just melt. You don't even need a spammable, make reverse slice or spin2win your spammable and if you're a DK add petrify, if not add reverb bash. #Outskilled

Once again the issue is CP being a crutch for any build and the game is being balanced on that crutch. Me and many of my friends playing in no-cp ended up using bleed builds because everything else is just inferior in no-cp. Bleeds provide the easiest damage with little to no sustain hits, while troll king provides the easiest healing with again little to no sustain hits.

Again, you can use a bow or SnB or 2h uppercut, but lets get real, why bother when you can have a free spammable via bleeds? Or why not combine bleeds with a spammable? There is no reason not to use axes.

This creates a situation where a player not using TK and bleeds is at a MASSIVE disadvantage compared to one using them. Both of these things need a nerf, and no, buffing other things won't solve this issue. Both doing damage and healing should require an effort, a player not using his vigor correctly should price the pay, a player who can't properly use spammables should not beat the one who does.

Not to mention these bleed procs are literally RNG. And everybody knows what people think of RNG in any somewhat competitive game.

As for the problematic, very low TTK in CP campaign; I think its obvious that CP is to blame for this. Its too much power, too much sustain, too much healing. This whole system needs a rework. It can stay the same in PvE, however it should be seriously tuned down for PvP.

How is it obvious? When I group que for no CP BGs, its a snoozefest if I'm matched-up Vs a premade because they and other people who know what they are doing usually don;t die unless it's an ultimate bomb or proc sets. You're making that assertion because of your own personal biases, which you made quite clear by calling CP a "crutch."

The Morrowind patch with all of it's nerfs was awful and now you want to "seriously tune down" sustain and power even more? How exactly is that going to improve the game? Do you envision after nerfing the crap out of people's power, sustain, and healing, they are going to all of a sudden run out a farm offensive glass cannon oriented sets and everyone will kill and die faster? Why would they do that? If I have no sustain, I'm farming sustain sets. If you nerf my healing, I'm wearing Earth-gore or Troll King. If you nerf my power, I'm going to wear a proc set because now it's the only way I can get power because of all the nerfs. It's not a bug mystery that gear sets, specially procs, are huge problems in a no CP environment because our power and sustain is too limited to rely on our (already) nerfed abilities. You'd just make the problem worse.

Morrowind was awful cause it did nerf classes, items and other not cp related things to deal with the power creep created via the CP system.

Non-CP PvP was really fun outside of all the proc sets, classes were strong, It was easy to stack penetration, ttk was a lot higher in cp while it was a lot lower in no-cp and I never felt like bleeds were an issue back then cause other dots would also ignore a big chunk of resists aswell, due to penetration being easy to access. It was balanced that way.

Now you are here calling me biased for telling my personal opinion despite the fact you think bleeds should stay the way they are cause TTK is too long in CP campaign, which is what I believe you said in a previous post. Why do I get labeled as biased for telling my opinion but yours is fact again?

Yes, those coordinated groups won't die to them cause they have dedicated templar healers with them.

You didn't even read my post properly or you are bending the facts on purpose, I said cp makes this all a problem, yes abilities and healing is too weak in no-cp, because it was nerfed to make CP feel more balanced.

I want those things to be strong again, I couldn't care less about the lame CP system which slowly killed this game.

But go ahead, call me biased and whatever you want for having an actual taste when it comes to gameplay. Its too late to change this anyways.

Kadoin

People still haven't realized that bleeds are most overpowered on the exact builds they were meant to counter or hybrid ones...? Wow.

SodanTok

Bleeds would be all fine if the best way to survive bleeds wouldnt be the same builds they are supposed to counter. If they are all supposed to wear down tanky people the best counter to them shouldnt be stacking a lot of healing exactly what tanky people have access to ^^

No reason bleeds need to be long DoT on cheap (very spammable) ability, RNG procced by any light attack or on undodgeable AoE. The last thing one struggles with is hitting tanky players, so why are they made so easy to apply.

Joy_Division

StShoot wrote: »

Joy_Division
The Morrowind patch with all of it's nerfs was awful and now you want to "seriously tune down" sustain and power even more? How exactly is that going to improve the game? Do you envision after nerfing the crap out of people's power, sustain, and healing, they are going to all of a sudden run out a farm offensive glass cannon oriented sets and everyone will kill and die faster? Why would they do that? If I have no sustain, I'm farming sustain sets. If you nerf my healing, I'm wearing Earth-gore or Troll King. If you nerf my power, I'm going to wear a proc set because now it's the only way I can get power because of all the nerfs. It's not a bug mystery that gear sets, specially procs, are huge problems in a no CP environment because our power and sustain is too limited to rely on our (already) nerfed abilities. You'd just make the problem worse.

Just curious did you just say, that high heal/dmg procs are okay if ppl cant manage to play without it xD?
The Problem is that the game ALLOWS those high procs....

Regarding the dmg that was "lost" with morrowind, the dmg never was higher... (in pve AND pvp)

But if i interpret your "Zos please update Templars" thread right you are maining a templar, so i understand why you dont see the problem with bleeding dmg ;D

No, I said that if you nerf the crap out of my character, I am going to use heal/dmg proc sets because my character is nerfed to crap and I don;t like playing weak builds.

If I do something because I am a competitive person, that does not mean I personally feel it's compelling game-play or it's "okay" philosophically. It means I am a competitive person and I don;t like to play weak builds. I'll play a decent build and refrain from using Sloads or other crap, but if only I can make a decent build. If ZOS is going to nerf everything I can do, sorry, I'm wearing proc sets.

Yes, the damage is higher, but the gameplay is not nearly as enjoyable. In PvE, people get carried by proc sets like Relequen and sioria and spend a lot of time heavy attacking, which is so boring half the end-game raiders left the game. In PvP, I just wear armor sets that make up for ZOS's nerfs, so the nerfs just had the effect of reducing build options. But that's the thing in general, our damage and character power are stronger, but it's not because the game-play or design is better, it's because ZOS introduces powerful gear sets to get us to buy DLCs and also the CP cap has gone up quite a bit since Morrowind.

Like just about everyone else, I play multiple characters and I spend more time in PvP on non-templars than I do on my templar, so your assumption is not correct. Besides, if you actually read my thread on templars, I make it a point that ZOS needs to update (read: not "buff") templars in the context of other classes and how the game has changed. I wrote that a year ago and probably should remove it form my sig as of right now templars are fine, in fact the only class I feel ZOS improved since the rep program began. It's mostly there as a reminder that ZOS had once ruined templars and can easily do so again if it reverts to its habit of indiscriminate nerfs.

In general, I don't have much of a problem with 95% of all the things that players ask to nerf on these threads because the end result of all these nerfs have made it such that people feel compelled to use bleeds and proc sets or roll out meta specs to actually kill experienced players. I don;t think the game-play has improved with the "whack a nerf" philosophy that many in PvP community seem to have. Let's put aside the fact that this nerf oriented philosophy has zero consideration for PvE and don't care at all now that PvE game-play is now so tedious and narrow because of these continuous nerfs. I don't believe for a second the nerf requests will stop if ZOS nerfs bleeds, oblivion damage, and spin2win - the three things PvPers seem to hate the most. After that they are going to go after heals and tanks because the TTK will be way too long and they won't be able to kill anything. And then Wrobel will come out with some overpowered damage monster or proc set to get us to buy the latest DLC as a "counter" to tanky players. Just go and check the last 3 years of patch notes if you don;t believe me.

Hochstapler

Just to sum things up in a non-diplomatic blunt way, since I don't care about opinions of delicate snowflakes on a forum:

Nerfing stuff to accommodate the lowest common denominator's inabilities to play video games = dumbing down the game and if it continues for long, it will reach autistic levels at which point there's an exodus and game slowly dies.

This is what we see time and time again, MMOs that've survived for decades are the ones that haven't followed the pattern that much.

Joy_Division

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Heres my 2 cents. Bleeds are balanced in CP and too strong in no-CP, I would like to see more of a middle by keeping bleeds the same in CP and nerfing them in no-CP. I think bleeds in CP could be strong but with how overturned healing is in CP you don't notice the DoT pressure as you do in no-CP. Bleed stacking in no-CP (particularly battlegrounds), against any class besides templars is absurd. Throw on 2-master axes, double DoT poisons, valkyn skoria, your choice of two bleed abilities (typically rending, poison injection, carve unless playing DK) and watch people just melt. You don't even need a spammable, make reverse slice or spin2win your spammable and if you're a DK add petrify, if not add reverb bash. #Outskilled

Once again the issue is CP being a crutch for any build and the game is being balanced on that crutch. Me and many of my friends playing in no-cp ended up using bleed builds because everything else is just inferior in no-cp. Bleeds provide the easiest damage with little to no sustain hits, while troll king provides the easiest healing with again little to no sustain hits.

Again, you can use a bow or SnB or 2h uppercut, but lets get real, why bother when you can have a free spammable via bleeds? Or why not combine bleeds with a spammable? There is no reason not to use axes.

This creates a situation where a player not using TK and bleeds is at a MASSIVE disadvantage compared to one using them. Both of these things need a nerf, and no, buffing other things won't solve this issue. Both doing damage and healing should require an effort, a player not using his vigor correctly should price the pay, a player who can't properly use spammables should not beat the one who does.

Not to mention these bleed procs are literally RNG. And everybody knows what people think of RNG in any somewhat competitive game.

As for the problematic, very low TTK in CP campaign; I think its obvious that CP is to blame for this. Its too much power, too much sustain, too much healing. This whole system needs a rework. It can stay the same in PvE, however it should be seriously tuned down for PvP.

How is it obvious? When I group que for no CP BGs, its a snoozefest if I'm matched-up Vs a premade because they and other people who know what they are doing usually don;t die unless it's an ultimate bomb or proc sets. You're making that assertion because of your own personal biases, which you made quite clear by calling CP a "crutch."

The Morrowind patch with all of it's nerfs was awful and now you want to "seriously tune down" sustain and power even more? How exactly is that going to improve the game? Do you envision after nerfing the crap out of people's power, sustain, and healing, they are going to all of a sudden run out a farm offensive glass cannon oriented sets and everyone will kill and die faster? Why would they do that? If I have no sustain, I'm farming sustain sets. If you nerf my healing, I'm wearing Earth-gore or Troll King. If you nerf my power, I'm going to wear a proc set because now it's the only way I can get power because of all the nerfs. It's not a bug mystery that gear sets, specially procs, are huge problems in a no CP environment because our power and sustain is too limited to rely on our (already) nerfed abilities. You'd just make the problem worse.

Morrowind was awful cause it did nerf classes, items and other not cp related things to deal with the power creep created via the CP system.

Non-CP PvP was really fun outside of all the proc sets, classes were strong, It was easy to stack penetration, ttk was a lot higher in cp while it was a lot lower in no-cp and I never felt like bleeds were an issue back then cause other dots would also ignore a big chunk of resists aswell, due to penetration being easy to access. It was balanced that way.

Now you are here calling me biased for telling my personal opinion despite the fact you think bleeds should stay the way they are cause TTK is too long in CP campaign, which is what I believe you said in a previous post. Why do I get labeled as biased for telling my opinion but yours is fact again?

Yes, those coordinated groups won't die to them cause they have dedicated templar healers with them.

You didn't even read my post properly or you are bending the facts on purpose, I said cp makes this all a problem, yes abilities and healing is too weak in no-cp, because it was nerfed to make CP feel more balanced.

I want those things to be strong again, I couldn't care less about the lame CP system which slowly killed this game.

But go ahead, call me biased and whatever you want for having an actual taste when it comes to gameplay. Its too late to change this anyways.

I didn't say my point of view was fact.

I'll quote:

Joy_Division wrote:

I may hold an unpopular opinion, but I think cyrodiil needs strong, particularly damage, mechanics.

How can I make it more any clearer? Hell I said it was unpopular because I know it's just that, an opinion that most people do not share.

So no, my opinion is not fact. It's the same thing as yours, an opinion.

I called yours biased because by using words like "crutch," you are going outside the boundaries of empirical observation and fact, and injecting snide remarks about a particular system in the game. Do you think that is not fair?

As far as your assessment of Morrowind and CP, you did not say anything about all those things to be strong again. You didn't. If you did, I would not have disagreed with you.

You just mentioned that because of CP players had "too much power, too much sustain, too much healing" and that "should be seriously tuned down for PvP". How am I - or the devs - supposed to interpret that in any other way that you much prefer no CP gameplay - with all the accompanying nerfs that came with it - and the game would be better if players had less power, less sustain, and less healing? Especially when we know those Morrowind nerfs came about because of precisely the complaints of the sort you're making: players have too much power and the CP is a "crutch." Go ahead and read the devs rationale again.

If what you mean is you feel it's the WAY in which that power is accessed (i.e., it's too easy from the CP system), well that is something very different. And something I agree with and something I have said for years that ZOS ought to do. But if that's what you want, then you ought to take the time to actually say that. Because we have ample evidence how ZOs has interpreted "CP is just a crutch that gives way to much power." Look at how no CP is set up: it's just no CP. We didn't get anything back that they nerfed. And again remember what they did in Morrowind: they nerfed CP and our classes.

From what you say now, we don;t really disagree as far as what we want. Our primary difference I am guessing is our assessment of what PvP would be like if ZOS nerfed the crap out of bleeds. Yeah, no CP gameplay would be really fun outside of all the proc sets, classes were strong. OK, but proc sets have always ruined no CP PvP (and will do so more if bleeds are nerfed) and our classes have only gotten weaker. How are you going to kill those coordinated groups with a dedicated healer? People are going to beg Wrobel to nerf heals, nerf tanking, and he will do so along with adding more cancerous proc sets. We know how this plays out. How do you think we got shield-breaker and Oblivion damage?

wheem_ESO

Hochstapler wrote: »

Just to sum things up in a non-diplomatic blunt way, since I don't care about opinions of delicate snowflakes on a forum:

Nerfing stuff to accommodate the lowest common denominator's inabilities to play video games = dumbing down the game and if it continues for long, it will reach autistic levels at which point there's an exodus and game slowly dies.

This is what we see time and time again, MMOs that've survived for decades are the ones that haven't followed the pattern that much.

More tripe. Lowering the damage and/or healing numbers on various abilities would most certainly be considered nerfing, but wouldn't necessarily mean "dumbing down" the game. In fact, it could be quite the opposite; the difference between facerolling your keyboard for super fast kills, vs having to set up your burst, CC, positioning, etc...properly. Your frequent contention that all nerfs are called for only by "bad" players is just laughable nonsense.

PS
WoW has nerfed a lot of things over the years, and as far as I know is still the most-played MMO around...14 years after release.

Hochstapler

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Your frequent contention that all nerfs are called for only by "bad" players is just laughable nonsense.

But they are.
Let's look at you for example.
You play a tank that get's killed by snipers and bleeds so instead of building a counter for that, you support nerf calls for snipe and bleeds on forums.
I also play a tank and I do NOT get killed by snipers and bleeds, because I build for that.
Counter to bleeds are HoTs, many counters for snipers are.. we discussed that in the other train wreck of a thread didn't we?

Periodically changes to game mechanics happen in every MMO ever made and they affect players in different ways.
Some players try to work with and around it and try to adjust without throwing their favorite class out the window (if possible).
Other players take a different, more childish approach, act like victims and scream for nerfs.

Personally I don't have a problem with players that learn something from these threads because a lot of usefull info is given even to those that don't deserve it.
What annoys me to no end is the players that just can't drop their ego and realize that they aren't very good at this, which is the first step to improvement.

I'm bad at many things, including games like first person shooters but I'm also first to admit it.
I don't go to their forums crying and playing a victim asking them to change mechanics to my liking.
I just don't play them.

NuarBlack

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Hochstapler wrote: »

Just to sum things up in a non-diplomatic blunt way, since I don't care about opinions of delicate snowflakes on a forum:

Nerfing stuff to accommodate the lowest common denominator's inabilities to play video games = dumbing down the game and if it continues for long, it will reach autistic levels at which point there's an exodus and game slowly dies.

This is what we see time and time again, MMOs that've survived for decades are the ones that haven't followed the pattern that much.

More tripe. Lowering the damage and/or healing numbers on various abilities would most certainly be considered nerfing, but wouldn't necessarily mean "dumbing down" the game. In fact, it could be quite the opposite; the difference between facerolling your keyboard for super fast kills, vs having to set up your burst, CC, positioning, etc...properly. Your frequent contention that all nerfs are called for only by "bad" players is just laughable nonsense.

PS
WoW has nerfed a lot of things over the years, and as far as I know is still the most-played MMO around...14 years after release.

Bahahahahaha! Blizzard is literally the king of power creep. WoW has had 2 stat squishes that I know of because their numbers get so out of hand. And even then they try to keep stuff in proportion when they do that so it feels the same. And don't even get me started on Diablo 3. The only real major nerf was the wrath to cata changes and that was only bad for the wrath babies who hadn't played vanilla and BC. And by the end of Cata you could rofl stomp things just about the same as you did in wrath. You can quite literally and easily solo any raids from a previous expansion and while eso operates on different system last I checked people weren't soloing HRC even. Hell DKs used to be able to solo some trials before nerfs but not now. WoW gives every class and spec something new and powerful every expansion, some better than others obviously but with exception of maybe the earthquake fiasco for ele shamans it is something that makes them more powerful every time. Now of course nerfs still happen but Wow reached its peak susbcriber base during wrath when burst was king. It's gone up and down since and I'm fairly certain if you count all systems eso now has the higher player base especially since battle for azeroth is tanking.

wheem_ESO

Hochstapler wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Your frequent contention that all nerfs are called for only by "bad" players is just laughable nonsense.

But they are.
Let's look at you for example.
You play a tank

Laugh out loud.

Hochstapler

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Laugh out loud.

As long as you are laughing instead of crying, I'm happy for you bud.
We are making a progress here.

Jakx

Hochstapler wrote: »

Just to sum things up in a non-diplomatic blunt way, since I don't care about opinions of delicate snowflakes on a forum:

Nerfing stuff to accommodate the lowest common denominator's inabilities to play video games = dumbing down the game and if it continues for long, it will reach autistic levels at which point there's an exodus and game slowly dies.

This is what we see time and time again, MMOs that've survived for decades are the ones that haven't followed the pattern that much.

Have you seen WoW these days? Can play that game to the 99th percentile in dps with 1-4 on the keyboard. Pathetically skill-less

Ragnarock41

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Heres my 2 cents. Bleeds are balanced in CP and too strong in no-CP, I would like to see more of a middle by keeping bleeds the same in CP and nerfing them in no-CP. I think bleeds in CP could be strong but with how overturned healing is in CP you don't notice the DoT pressure as you do in no-CP. Bleed stacking in no-CP (particularly battlegrounds), against any class besides templars is absurd. Throw on 2-master axes, double DoT poisons, valkyn skoria, your choice of two bleed abilities (typically rending, poison injection, carve unless playing DK) and watch people just melt. You don't even need a spammable, make reverse slice or spin2win your spammable and if you're a DK add petrify, if not add reverb bash. #Outskilled

Once again the issue is CP being a crutch for any build and the game is being balanced on that crutch. Me and many of my friends playing in no-cp ended up using bleed builds because everything else is just inferior in no-cp. Bleeds provide the easiest damage with little to no sustain hits, while troll king provides the easiest healing with again little to no sustain hits.

Again, you can use a bow or SnB or 2h uppercut, but lets get real, why bother when you can have a free spammable via bleeds? Or why not combine bleeds with a spammable? There is no reason not to use axes.

This creates a situation where a player not using TK and bleeds is at a MASSIVE disadvantage compared to one using them. Both of these things need a nerf, and no, buffing other things won't solve this issue. Both doing damage and healing should require an effort, a player not using his vigor correctly should price the pay, a player who can't properly use spammables should not beat the one who does.

Not to mention these bleed procs are literally RNG. And everybody knows what people think of RNG in any somewhat competitive game.

As for the problematic, very low TTK in CP campaign; I think its obvious that CP is to blame for this. Its too much power, too much sustain, too much healing. This whole system needs a rework. It can stay the same in PvE, however it should be seriously tuned down for PvP.

How is it obvious? When I group que for no CP BGs, its a snoozefest if I'm matched-up Vs a premade because they and other people who know what they are doing usually don;t die unless it's an ultimate bomb or proc sets. You're making that assertion because of your own personal biases, which you made quite clear by calling CP a "crutch."

The Morrowind patch with all of it's nerfs was awful and now you want to "seriously tune down" sustain and power even more? How exactly is that going to improve the game? Do you envision after nerfing the crap out of people's power, sustain, and healing, they are going to all of a sudden run out a farm offensive glass cannon oriented sets and everyone will kill and die faster? Why would they do that? If I have no sustain, I'm farming sustain sets. If you nerf my healing, I'm wearing Earth-gore or Troll King. If you nerf my power, I'm going to wear a proc set because now it's the only way I can get power because of all the nerfs. It's not a bug mystery that gear sets, specially procs, are huge problems in a no CP environment because our power and sustain is too limited to rely on our (already) nerfed abilities. You'd just make the problem worse.

Morrowind was awful cause it did nerf classes, items and other not cp related things to deal with the power creep created via the CP system.

Non-CP PvP was really fun outside of all the proc sets, classes were strong, It was easy to stack penetration, ttk was a lot higher in cp while it was a lot lower in no-cp and I never felt like bleeds were an issue back then cause other dots would also ignore a big chunk of resists aswell, due to penetration being easy to access. It was balanced that way.

Now you are here calling me biased for telling my personal opinion despite the fact you think bleeds should stay the way they are cause TTK is too long in CP campaign, which is what I believe you said in a previous post. Why do I get labeled as biased for telling my opinion but yours is fact again?

Yes, those coordinated groups won't die to them cause they have dedicated templar healers with them.

You didn't even read my post properly or you are bending the facts on purpose, I said cp makes this all a problem, yes abilities and healing is too weak in no-cp, because it was nerfed to make CP feel more balanced.

I want those things to be strong again, I couldn't care less about the lame CP system which slowly killed this game.

But go ahead, call me biased and whatever you want for having an actual taste when it comes to gameplay. Its too late to change this anyways.

I didn't say my point of view was fact.

I'll quote:

Joy_Division wrote:

I may hold an unpopular opinion, but I think cyrodiil needs strong, particularly damage, mechanics.

How can I make it more any clearer? Hell I said it was unpopular because I know it's just that, an opinion that most people do not share.

So no, my opinion is not fact. It's the same thing as yours, an opinion.

I called yours biased because by using words like "crutch," you are going outside the boundaries of empirical observation and fact, and injecting snide remarks about a particular system in the game. Do you think that is not fair?

As far as your assessment of Morrowind and CP, you did not say anything about all those things to be strong again. You didn't. If you did, I would not have disagreed with you.

You just mentioned that because of CP players had "too much power, too much sustain, too much healing" and that "should be seriously tuned down for PvP". How am I - or the devs - supposed to interpret that in any other way that you much prefer no CP gameplay - with all the accompanying nerfs that came with it - and the game would be better if players had less power, less sustain, and less healing? Especially when we know those Morrowind nerfs came about because of precisely the complaints of the sort you're making: players have too much power and the CP is a "crutch." Go ahead and read the devs rationale again.

If what you mean is you feel it's the WAY in which that power is accessed (i.e., it's too easy from the CP system), well that is something very different. And something I agree with and something I have said for years that ZOS ought to do. But if that's what you want, then you ought to take the time to actually say that. Because we have ample evidence how ZOs has interpreted "CP is just a crutch that gives way to much power." Look at how no CP is set up: it's just no CP. We didn't get anything back that they nerfed. And again remember what they did in Morrowind: they nerfed CP and our classes.

From what you say now, we don;t really disagree as far as what we want. Our primary difference I am guessing is our assessment of what PvP would be like if ZOS nerfed the crap out of bleeds. Yeah, no CP gameplay would be really fun outside of all the proc sets, classes were strong. OK, but proc sets have always ruined no CP PvP (and will do so more if bleeds are nerfed) and our classes have only gotten weaker. How are you going to kill those coordinated groups with a dedicated healer? People are going to beg Wrobel to nerf heals, nerf tanking, and he will do so along with adding more cancerous proc sets. We know how this plays out. How do you think we got shield-breaker and Oblivion damage?

To be honest, I just don't want to make a decision between absolute procfest with no sustain or so much sustain that fights last ages, which is the difference between no-CP and CP summed up shortly. The very existance of two separate pvp types goes to show there is a balance problem with this system. Otherwise there would not be a reason to have no-CP campaign or no-CP battlegrounds. As for why the word ''crutch'' triggers people so much I have no clue. It is what it is. CP makes the game easier , for everyone. Battles last longer and so on as a result, its literally a crutch. And thats not always a bad thing but when the doctor cuts down one of your legs to make that crutch neccessary thats where we start having issues. I think being able to get what you lack from CP is great and all but it offers way too much, like why do CP give us extra stats? Can't they give those stats to players by default? Would definitely help a lot with garbage sustain in no-cp. Again, just an example to my point.

When it comes to bleeds specificly though, there is literally no justification to why a free axe bleed that doesn't even take a skill slot to outdamage my venomous claws on a build that has 6K WEAPON DAMAGE. My own bleeds do more than my poison dots, and I'm doing these tests with about 10k penetration. Its ridicilous. This difference only grows larger on a class like stamblade that can get minor+major berserk and get another %20 damage amp, and another %20 if he wishes to run blooddrinker.

I'm running medium armor, running pure damage sets with barely minimum sustain, and some random stamblade in heavy armor hits me for 3k rending ticks, 5k suprise attacks and I can't even outheal it cause I sacrificed troll king to reach that weapon damage anyways, meanwhile that heavy nb can sustain troll king+lingering potions in heavy armor with no cost reduction required even in no-cp, with 3 extra bar space compared to me, cause class balance is oh so great, and you are telling me this BS is neccessary for the game balance or whatever it is that you believe makes this fine.

Yes you have a point, constant nerfs to everything won't solve anything and will make proc setups even stronger , which in general is correct, but what are my options? Ask Wrobel for fair balance changes, so that he can nerf noxious breath? Cause that is what he did in murkmire

Flame_of_Hades

So, reading through this, I have to say my "favorite" things in this game are TK and Bleeds.

Why? Because both lower the skill required to survive and/or get kills.

For a visual, lets say players "skill" was set on a scale of 1 to 100.

Now, for the sake of argument, everything in this game, every potion, armor set, and ability adds something to the "skill level" of every player.

Lets say a players "base skill is 50/100", and they are using potions, +5, using X offensive set, +5, using X defensive set, +5, using X monster set + 5. = 70.

Now, lets say a player has a "base skill of 30/100", they are using potions, + 5, using X BiS offensive set, +10, using X Bis defensive set, +10, using X monster set, +5. = 65.

Now, the less "skilled" player is still worse off than the more "skilled" player, even when running BiS items, as it should be.

But, here comes player C, with a "base skill of 20/30", lower than both of the other players. they are using, TK, +20, Bleeds, +15, X BiS set, +10, X BiS set, +10. = 75. now, the player with the LOWEST skill level, is higher up the "skill" rating, than the other players, due to over "Carry" sets.

Now, obviously, these numbers are made up to prove a point, skill can't honestly be rated on a scale of 1-100.

The point is, certain sets carry people much harder than others. Blood Spawn is a very powerful set, but it is not OP because it gives people resist, on a reasonable cool down, and ultimate, which said player must still use smart. Now TK, gives people 1548 health recovery, on top of their healing already, ON NO COOL DOWN.

Bleeds give (near) free damage, that out dps's many, if not all other dots. bleeds, designed to deal with tanky builds, are MORE effective vs. squishy builds that do not have the tools, such as high healing, that tanky builds have.

How to balance these two things? make the base bleed damage (applied from passives, not abilities) TINY, but scale it up based on the targets resistance. "deals 1000 damage over 8 seconds, scales up to 1000% more based on targets physical resistance" (people using bleeds are normally stamina based, thus spell resist, granted by light armor, should not effect the damage output of a stamina based damage type).

Give troll king a cool down, and make the effect it grants activate on the last tick of a HoT. that way, if a target is truly low on health, it gives them the healing buff they need. this way, this way, initial ticks from vigor/Rally would not proc this very strong heal, but, if it was needed, one could instantly re-cast rally(assuming you are not using FM), or vigor, in order to create a "final tick" situation and proc TK, making it more interactive and not brain dead.

How would you fix these problems? keep in mind that these things need to still be viable enough to fulfill the role they were placed within the game for, without still being hard carries for almost every situation.

CyrusArya

Thank you @Flame_of_Hades. Finally some constructive dialogue instead of mindless QQ. This is a great idea. But personally I’d rather axes be completely reworked and provide some kind of buff rather than proc damage.

AllegraLionheart

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Non faction locking and no ingame moderators is what’s killing pvp. Period.

Just restating this.

And it seems to me that having a buddy to help throw HoTs over the bleeds and CP to help mitigate DoTs/bleeds is the way for you to go. I don't have an answer for you for non-cp, however.

NuarBlack

AllegraLionheart wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Non faction locking and no ingame moderators is what’s killing pvp. Period.

Just restating this.

And it seems to me that having a buddy to help throw HoTs over the bleeds and CP to help mitigate DoTs/bleeds is the way for you to go. I don't have an answer for you for non-cp, however.

Nah pvp in ESO was dead from the get go. It was killed by rose tinted nostalgia goggles for Dark Age despite years of evidence from WoW and Rift and others that large scale never works. Cyro is what keeps ruining pvp. No one wants to play horse simulator so stuff has to keep getting nerfed. If getting back into the fight is quicker a low time to kill isn't a problem. It's the principle most fps operate on. It's also better for new players learning to pvp. Many repetitions in quick succession is how people learn. Cyro makes that hard. So when someone gets blown up in 5 seconds and spends 15 minutes or more playing horse simulator to only get blown up again eventually they decide to just hide in a zerg or cry for nerfs or abandon pvp altogether.

BGs offered a glimmer of hope at reviving pvp but proc sets and bleeds make learning harder. While they do have counters they have fewer counters than other aspects of the game. But I'll say I don't think they really need nerfed just maybe adjusted and really all the other stuff that got nerfed cause of cyro needs buffed back up so it is more intuitive to new players.

Minno

CyrusArya wrote: »

Thank you @Flame_of_Hades. Finally some constructive dialogue instead of mindless QQ. This is a great idea. But personally I’d rather axes be completely reworked and provide some kind of buff rather than proc damage.

That was really good feedback from him!

It's either add cooldowns to really strong abilities/passives or unstack axe bleeds. I'd sign up for either.

brandonv516

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Undefwun

My question, which I always post in the bleed nerf threads is, "Why is insane burst ok, but bleeds need a nerf?".

Besides the usual troll replies no one has ever given me a proper answer. Is the frustration of trying to heal through it vs just being dead? Or the annoyance that even if I die, the dots can still get you from beyond the grave?

It takes time to apply several bleeds/dots. The weapon ones are RNG. Then they have to actually tick... you have a chance to heal, shield, use potions, be saved by a team mate, pref a templar with extended ritual. And since BGs are not in a 1v1 vacuum, there will be damage coming my way. No shields, no cloak, speed and immov nerfed now too.

Meanwhile burst can be almost instant, 2-3s giving you almost no chance to heal.

So what's the difference. 20k instant vs over time.

wheem_ESO

Undefwun wrote: »

My question, which I always post in the bleed nerf threads is, "Why is insane burst ok, but bleeds need a nerf?".

Besides the usual troll replies no one has ever given me a proper answer. Is the frustration of trying to heal through it vs just being dead? Or the annoyance that even if I die, the dots can still get you from beyond the grave?

It takes time to apply several bleeds/dots. The weapon ones are RNG. Then they have to actually tick... you have a chance to heal, shield, use potions, be saved by a team mate, pref a templar with extended ritual. And since BGs are not in a 1v1 vacuum, there will be damage coming my way. No shields, no cloak, speed and immov nerfed now too.

Meanwhile burst can be almost instant, 2-3s giving you almost no chance to heal.

So what's the difference. 20k instant vs over time.

It's that they're hands down better than all other DOTs, and you only need 1 bar slot/global cooldown with very low resource cost in order to stack up to 3 bleeds. The boost from Master DW is too strong, and the proc'd bleeds are way too good for "free" damage that only requires an axe to be equipped. There are reasons that essentially all Stamina builds are running axes over swords or maces in Battlegrounds, and it's not the aesthetics.

And no, I don't think all burst damage is totally balanced right now. But the bleeds are so strong that they often feel like you're being bursted, even if it's nothing but light attacks, Rending Slashes, Dawnbreaker, and execute spam.

Undefwun

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's that they're hands down better than all other DOTs, and you only need 1 bar slot/global cooldown with very low resource cost in order to stack up to 3 bleeds. The boost from Master DW is too strong, and the proc'd bleeds are way too good for "free" damage that only requires an axe to be equipped. There are reasons that essentially all Stamina builds are running axes over swords or maces in Battlegrounds, and it's not the aesthetics.

And no, I don't think all burst damage is totally balanced right now. But the bleeds are so strong that they often feel like you're being bursted, even if it's nothing but light attacks, Rending Slashes, Dawnbreaker, and execute spam.

I made a 'death by a thousand cuts' build out of spite. I stayed away from proc sets, abiding by an 'honor code' of sorts that no one else could care less about. "If ZOS put it in the game it's ok to use" or "well everyone is doing it, i have to keep up" are the most polite reply I got when questioning ppl's builds. One night I had enough, so now I play by everyone else's rules.

So on the stam sorc I have 4 potential bleeds and 4 potential dots (+ skoria procs if I really feel like going glass cannon).

Well why am I not the most OP mofo in the game right now?

(Besides the fact that regardless of how much I play I will never be more than delightfully barely above average, from a mechanical perspective)

5 Medium makes me squish, so can't face tank. They nerfed swift, they nerfed speed pots, they nerfed FM, they sorta nerfed Dark Deal (they even deleted my overload bar). I can be range CC'd and burst down fast. In melee range, most the other melee classes have strong spamables and CCs. IF I don't get the drop and get everything ticking it's no different than a failed stamblade gank but I don't have cloak. I have to pray that the game lets me bar swap in combat with 320-350 (up to 400) ping and I can get a streak off to maybe get out of LOS. I don't have the 100% uptime on major expedition anymore to just Speedy Gonzales my way out of harms way.

I'm an old dog, I learn slow so, there is alot of l2p still there for me for pvp, I know that, but I can see there is many ways to shut me down. BGs are NOT a vacuum and when you get to the better players, and the premades that move like they are attached to each other like in The Human Centipede, definitely do not feel OP.

Maybe in my case it's just evening the odds with my ping, skill and yolocopter* play style, maybe it's different when an actually good player is steering one of the bleed builds (I can see bleed blade being worse since they also have cloak and a hard hitting class melee spamable like surprise attack).

* "The Yolocopter" - seeing a group of enemies, screaming 'YOLO' and diving in hoping the stars will align in your favor. Usually resulting in a quick trip to respawn.

NuarBlack

Undefwun wrote: »

My question, which I always post in the bleed nerf threads is, "Why is insane burst ok, but bleeds need a nerf?".

Besides the usual troll replies no one has ever given me a proper answer. Is the frustration of trying to heal through it vs just being dead? Or the annoyance that even if I die, the dots can still get you from beyond the grave?

It takes time to apply several bleeds/dots. The weapon ones are RNG. Then they have to actually tick... you have a chance to heal, shield, use potions, be saved by a team mate, pref a templar with extended ritual. And since BGs are not in a 1v1 vacuum, there will be damage coming my way. No shields, no cloak, speed and immov nerfed now too.

Meanwhile burst can be almost instant, 2-3s giving you almost no chance to heal.

So what's the difference. 20k instant vs over time.

It's probably cause bleeds don't exist in a vacuum either. Bleed builds can still rock heavy burst too. Right now in fact bleeds are the best way to get someone into the burst zone effeciently. At least a good player who is built right won't be 100-0 by someone just running up and popping a standard burst combo. Bleed them down to 70-60% at no cost or real effort then pop burst and you see where bleeds really shine.

Now I tend to agree that we don't need a typical ZoS knee jerk nerf to bleeds as outside of master axes I don't see them as any more potent than other things out there. So maybe take a look at them and perhaps the axe passives.

Raudgrani

On Xbox EU, I've met ONE really strong dedicated bleed build. And I avoid that guy if I can. He is usually (really) good in both PVE and PVP, all-over leaderboard material. He basically puts on every bleed there is and dizzy swing you, and you bleed to death before you are even up on your feet again.
That's ONE guy on the entire server. One. I don't see this as a problem to be fair. Sure I have an occasional bleed dot on my death recap, but it's not like it's a problem for me at least.

Nser

basically we just need soft cap to come back on character stat like B4 & also we need to remove free damage sets, enchants, etc from the game ( if u want the pvp game to be alive and balanced) or from pvp at least so people can rely on there own skills.
now no one rely on skills just free damage base and bleed should be reduce process time and its should not be process multi times and dot for bleeding is so high no one can over heal this.

@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Vapirko

Checkmath wrote: »

Patro wrote: »

The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!

Well neither blocking nor heavy armor does reduce the bleed ticks....

Well duh. But if you can’t get through due to permablocking (and it is still possible to play an nearly permablock build) then bleeds are the answer hence why they exist. And bleeds really aren’t that bad, the master dw bleed is really strong when paired with other bleeds but that’s about it.

Raudgrani

Nser wrote: »

basically we just need soft cap to come back on character stat like B4 & also we need to remove free damage sets, enchants, etc from the game ( if u want the pvp game to be alive and balanced) or from pvp at least so people can rely on there own skills.
now no one rely on skills just free damage base and bleed should be reduce process time and its should not be process multi times and dot for bleeding is so high no one can over heal this.

@ZOS_Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Is ESO supposed to be one big snowflake experiment? Complain about what kills you, so "daddy" can remove the baddies for you, so you can enjoy the game YOUR way, without adjusting or changing YOUR build?
Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

When will people stop asking for "balance" by making every set and every ability useless? Where's the fun in that? THAT along with bad game/server performance it what kills the game. Not bleed builds. It's just a matter of time before someone finds something new - being or bordering to an exploit - and use that, until enough people complain so it's removed.

Haashhtaag

Make bleeds scale on max health. It wouldn’t effect the 19-23k Heath light armor user as much but would greatly effect the 30-40k block tank tremendously.

BlackMadara

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

The strongest displayed rending damage had an average damage tick of 1600. Rending ticks every two seconds, unlike other dots that tick every 1 second. That is about 800 damage on average per second. This damage in inline with other dots on a damage build. My mDK has similar number with burning embers and burning proc. The only difference in this instance is that bleeds ignore resistances, so those bleed numbers will not change against a heavy armor target, while my mDK numbers will.

The main problem with bleeds are master's axes and the damage from free weapon bleeds. Master's axes give a large increase in damage, which is partially justified by them being a hard to acquire item in an mmorpg. Weapon bleed passives have really high scaling, imo too high when compared to other damage procs such as burning and poisoned.

TLDR: The bleeds on your death recap are not overpowered, they are just artificially inflated due to ticking every 2 seconds instead of every 1 second.

Minno

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol