Bleed is killing PVP

Sharee

wheem_ESO wrote: »

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons.

Wish they would disable them in PvP. Best weapons for PvP-ing coming from pure PvE is completely backwards.

wheem_ESO

Sharee wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons.

Wish they would disable them in PvP. Best weapons for PvP-ing coming from pure PvE is completely backwards.

Yea, I'd somewhat liken it to needing to beat 2x tryhard premade teams in a Battleground to have a chance at getting the best PvE-oriented weapons.

Minno

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.

Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.

The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.

A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?

Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).

Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.

Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.

That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.

The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.

I color coded the blacking-out of players' names to differentiate them, and I'd consider all 3 that are showing up on the recap to be pretty solid. A few things to note:

1. The original screenshot is from October 29th, which is before I switched my Jewelry over to Protective (which would help vs Burning Embers, but not the bleeds).

2. Given the numbers I'm seeing, I had some combination of Minor Protection, Major Protection, and/or the Undeath Passive from Vampire active while I was taking this damage.

3. I'm a Stage 4 Vampire, so this flame damage from the DK is after receiving a substantial boost. Yet 5 ticks still did barely more damage than 2 ticks of a bleed.

I also have another screenshot from last night where I took 2x Rending Slashes ticks from 2 different players, coming in at 3,331 and 3,649, while a Mag DK's Flame Lash hit for 3,073. Who's getting better use out of their globals against a Stage 4 Vampire with substantial resists?

PS
I'm not saying that Mag DK needs some giant buffs or something; there are some that are capable of putting out some really heavy damage. But Stam has ruled the roost in Battlegrounds since BGs have been a thing, and the current overpoweredness of bleeds is a big contributing factor to that continued dominance.

Edit:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons. 'Course, it's hard for me to say that with any level of certainty since essentially all Stam at the high MMR in BGs are using Master DW...what sort of damage numbers are non-Master bleeds even doing?

Combining Master DW with Rending Slashes and proc'd bleeds, plus the lack of sacrifice to other facets of PvP that such a setup entails, puts Stam in a pretty ridiculous place right now. The difference in difficulty I face between fighting good Stam players vs good Magicka players is night and day, and bleeds are a big part of that.

That second blood craze is 1156 per tick. That is half the tooltip of wall of elements.

And that was baby DK damage; ive had burning embers hit me for 750 per tick. And bigger picture, what's your crit resists?

wheem_ESO

Minno wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.

Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.

The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.

A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?

Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).

Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.

Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.

That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.

The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.

I color coded the blacking-out of players' names to differentiate them, and I'd consider all 3 that are showing up on the recap to be pretty solid. A few things to note:

1. The original screenshot is from October 29th, which is before I switched my Jewelry over to Protective (which would help vs Burning Embers, but not the bleeds).

2. Given the numbers I'm seeing, I had some combination of Minor Protection, Major Protection, and/or the Undeath Passive from Vampire active while I was taking this damage.

3. I'm a Stage 4 Vampire, so this flame damage from the DK is after receiving a substantial boost. Yet 5 ticks still did barely more damage than 2 ticks of a bleed.

I also have another screenshot from last night where I took 2x Rending Slashes ticks from 2 different players, coming in at 3,331 and 3,649, while a Mag DK's Flame Lash hit for 3,073. Who's getting better use out of their globals against a Stage 4 Vampire with substantial resists?

PS
I'm not saying that Mag DK needs some giant buffs or something; there are some that are capable of putting out some really heavy damage. But Stam has ruled the roost in Battlegrounds since BGs have been a thing, and the current overpoweredness of bleeds is a big contributing factor to that continued dominance.

Edit:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons. 'Course, it's hard for me to say that with any level of certainty since essentially all Stam at the high MMR in BGs are using Master DW...what sort of damage numbers are non-Master bleeds even doing?

Combining Master DW with Rending Slashes and proc'd bleeds, plus the lack of sacrifice to other facets of PvP that such a setup entails, puts Stam in a pretty ridiculous place right now. The difference in difficulty I face between fighting good Stam players vs good Magicka players is night and day, and bleeds are a big part of that.

That second blood craze is 1156 per tick. That is half the tooltip of wall of elements.

And that was baby DK damage; ive had burning embers hit me for 750 per tick. And bigger picture, what's your crit resists?

I have 6/7 Impen, and self buff to ~30k Spell Resist and ~24.5k Physical Resist (plus Minor Protection, along with Major Protection coming from Pirate Skeleton, and the Undeath passive from Vampire). Without the two big boy damage reductions active, I see bleed ticks between 1.6k and 2k all day long. And that's each individual bleed, not all of them stacked together. The only other DOT I can think of that I've seen get anywhere close comes from a Dawnbreaker (and if I wasn't a Vampire that probably wouldn't be the case).

Patro

Bleed dot and fire dot (of magicka DK) are not comparable! I can get a maximum of 1k tick on players with very low resistance with my fire dots.

Minno

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.

Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.

The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.

A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?

Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).

Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.

Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.

That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.

The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.

I color coded the blacking-out of players' names to differentiate them, and I'd consider all 3 that are showing up on the recap to be pretty solid. A few things to note:

1. The original screenshot is from October 29th, which is before I switched my Jewelry over to Protective (which would help vs Burning Embers, but not the bleeds).

2. Given the numbers I'm seeing, I had some combination of Minor Protection, Major Protection, and/or the Undeath Passive from Vampire active while I was taking this damage.

3. I'm a Stage 4 Vampire, so this flame damage from the DK is after receiving a substantial boost. Yet 5 ticks still did barely more damage than 2 ticks of a bleed.

I also have another screenshot from last night where I took 2x Rending Slashes ticks from 2 different players, coming in at 3,331 and 3,649, while a Mag DK's Flame Lash hit for 3,073. Who's getting better use out of their globals against a Stage 4 Vampire with substantial resists?

PS
I'm not saying that Mag DK needs some giant buffs or something; there are some that are capable of putting out some really heavy damage. But Stam has ruled the roost in Battlegrounds since BGs have been a thing, and the current overpoweredness of bleeds is a big contributing factor to that continued dominance.

Edit:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons. 'Course, it's hard for me to say that with any level of certainty since essentially all Stam at the high MMR in BGs are using Master DW...what sort of damage numbers are non-Master bleeds even doing?

Combining Master DW with Rending Slashes and proc'd bleeds, plus the lack of sacrifice to other facets of PvP that such a setup entails, puts Stam in a pretty ridiculous place right now. The difference in difficulty I face between fighting good Stam players vs good Magicka players is night and day, and bleeds are a big part of that.

That second blood craze is 1156 per tick. That is half the tooltip of wall of elements.

And that was baby DK damage; ive had burning embers hit me for 750 per tick. And bigger picture, what's your crit resists?

I have 6/7 Impen, and self buff to ~30k Spell Resist and ~24.5k Physical Resist (plus Minor Protection, along with Major Protection coming from Pirate Skeleton, and the Undeath passive from Vampire). Without the two big boy damage reductions active, I see bleed ticks between 1.6k and 2k all day long. And that's each individual bleed, not all of them stacked together. The only other DOT I can think of that I've seen get anywhere close comes from a Dawnbreaker (and if I wasn't a Vampire that probably wouldn't be the case).

resist stacking main weakness are bleeds. You probably wont see much difference if you dropped physical to 18k-21k but if you gained 4k crit resists you might see less peak damage, at least enough for you to LOS/heal.

Most encounters remove your advantage as soon as another enemy is added into the mix. Max most can handle is about 4 (BG size), because 4 times a 1k dots per second = 4k per second which will kill you in about 5 seconds.

Nothing is going to save you in those 5 seconds except turning that 4v1 into 1v1 where bleeds are manageable.

BlackMadara

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.

Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.

The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.

A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?

Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).

Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.

Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.

That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.

The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.

I color coded the blacking-out of players' names to differentiate them, and I'd consider all 3 that are showing up on the recap to be pretty solid. A few things to note:

1. The original screenshot is from October 29th, which is before I switched my Jewelry over to Protective (which would help vs Burning Embers, but not the bleeds).

2. Given the numbers I'm seeing, I had some combination of Minor Protection, Major Protection, and/or the Undeath Passive from Vampire active while I was taking this damage.

3. I'm a Stage 4 Vampire, so this flame damage from the DK is after receiving a substantial boost. Yet 5 ticks still did barely more damage than 2 ticks of a bleed.

I also have another screenshot from last night where I took 2x Rending Slashes ticks from 2 different players, coming in at 3,331 and 3,649, while a Mag DK's Flame Lash hit for 3,073. Who's getting better use out of their globals against a Stage 4 Vampire with substantial resists?

PS
I'm not saying that Mag DK needs some giant buffs or something; there are some that are capable of putting out some really heavy damage. But Stam has ruled the roost in Battlegrounds since BGs have been a thing, and the current overpoweredness of bleeds is a big contributing factor to that continued dominance.

Edit:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons. 'Course, it's hard for me to say that with any level of certainty since essentially all Stam at the high MMR in BGs are using Master DW...what sort of damage numbers are non-Master bleeds even doing?

Combining Master DW with Rending Slashes and proc'd bleeds, plus the lack of sacrifice to other facets of PvP that such a setup entails, puts Stam in a pretty ridiculous place right now. The difference in difficulty I face between fighting good Stam players vs good Magicka players is night and day, and bleeds are a big part of that.

About those recaps. Twin slashes ticks every 2s, so you took about 1k damage per tick, or 500 dps. Burning embers ticks every second, so you took almost 500 dps from that DK. Embers scales better with SD than twin does with WD, and factoring in your high spell resist, being a vamp, and his spell pen, that looks about right. You just see bigger numbers with twin slashes due to the tick rate compared to most other dots.

I don't think those players were using masters axes btw. If they had high WD and masters weapons, you would be taking about 400 more damage a tick I think, based on your defensive buff up times.

Minno

BlackMadara wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

CompM4s wrote: »

Bleed builds are strong, but not impossible to kill. I havent seen any overpowered unkillable builds this patch. So far its rock paper scissors.

Yup. Strong but not egregiously overpowered like people make it out to be. The only really valid criticism is that they do too much damage for too little input. Which is why I have reiterated over and over that the proc bleeds could be tuned down but twin slashes must remain strong as it is.

The only way I could maybe agree with leaving Twin Slashes un-nerfed would be if the Master dual wield weapons get redesigned for some other type of bonus. I'm sorry, but people being able to push ~2k damage/tick from an ability that's that cheap, applies a 50% snare, ignores all resistances, and stacks with everything else, is simply too strong.

A Warden's Fetcher Infection can be double-cast for +50% damage, and it still doesn't reach the same numbers as Rending Slashes. Plus it has a slow projectile, can be reflected, and if only single cast will frequently be < 1k/tick on any halfway tanky target. It's a similar story for DK DOTs as well; every Stam DK that I've seen in BGs has done far more damage to me with Bleeds than they have with their class DOTs, and significantly more damage than their Mag DK brethren do as well, even though I'm a Stage 4 Vampire. If DKs are supposed to be the "DOT Class," why are generic bleeds that are available to everyone else so much stronger than their supposedly class defining tools?

Maybe 2k damage/tick would be somewhat OK if their other damage output was significantly reduced by going for their "bleed build," but it isn't. There's no real sacrifice made in switching to Master DW and using axes in general. They're still just as mobile, tanky, bursty, and have the same healing power as the other non-archer Stam setups that aren't running a "bleed build." Not that there are really any Stam players not using bleed-heavy setups in the high MMR BGs (barring some archers here and there).

Twin slashes alone isn't an issue. Even stacking high amounts of weapon damage, its dps is not much higher than a light armor DKs Burning Embers. It seems much stronger due to ticking every 2s, which means higher ticks.

Master's axes blows its damage up to the crazy levels. I don't think there is a way to build enough damage to match the damage increase it gives. Then twin slashes outperforms other dots heavily.

That said, this is an mmo. People that farm the best gear tend to perform better. Should master's buff be further adjusted? Maybe but that's up to ZoS.

The real problem with bleeds are the passives. Those have very strong scaling and are easy to apply. The bleed passive outperforms the mace armor pen passive in pvp, and that shouldn't be the case. We have two options in stam weapons for dealing with high armor targets, and one is severely outperforming the other.

I color coded the blacking-out of players' names to differentiate them, and I'd consider all 3 that are showing up on the recap to be pretty solid. A few things to note:

1. The original screenshot is from October 29th, which is before I switched my Jewelry over to Protective (which would help vs Burning Embers, but not the bleeds).

2. Given the numbers I'm seeing, I had some combination of Minor Protection, Major Protection, and/or the Undeath Passive from Vampire active while I was taking this damage.

3. I'm a Stage 4 Vampire, so this flame damage from the DK is after receiving a substantial boost. Yet 5 ticks still did barely more damage than 2 ticks of a bleed.

I also have another screenshot from last night where I took 2x Rending Slashes ticks from 2 different players, coming in at 3,331 and 3,649, while a Mag DK's Flame Lash hit for 3,073. Who's getting better use out of their globals against a Stage 4 Vampire with substantial resists?

PS
I'm not saying that Mag DK needs some giant buffs or something; there are some that are capable of putting out some really heavy damage. But Stam has ruled the roost in Battlegrounds since BGs have been a thing, and the current overpoweredness of bleeds is a big contributing factor to that continued dominance.

Edit:
In case it wasn't clear, I'm not exactly disagreeing with @BlackMadara - Rending Slashes may not be too much of an issue if not for Master Weapons. 'Course, it's hard for me to say that with any level of certainty since essentially all Stam at the high MMR in BGs are using Master DW...what sort of damage numbers are non-Master bleeds even doing?

Combining Master DW with Rending Slashes and proc'd bleeds, plus the lack of sacrifice to other facets of PvP that such a setup entails, puts Stam in a pretty ridiculous place right now. The difference in difficulty I face between fighting good Stam players vs good Magicka players is night and day, and bleeds are a big part of that.

About those recaps. Twin slashes ticks every 2s, so you took about 1k damage per tick, or 500 dps. Burning embers ticks every second, so you took almost 500 dps from that DK. Embers scales better with SD than twin does with WD, and factoring in your high spell resist, being a vamp, and his spell pen, that looks about right. You just see bigger numbers with twin slashes due to the tick rate compared to most other dots.

I don't think those players were using masters axes btw. If they had high WD and masters weapons, you would be taking about 400 more damage a tick I think, based on your defensive buff up times.

and some of those numbers are potentially crits. As far I know, the death recap doesn't distinguish between the two, so you kinda have to assume about half of the ticks are crits the other normal ticks.

Ragnarock41

Patro wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Stop Permablocking.

Your welcome.

You don't understand. Block is the only thing that sets a dk alive.

I've given up on blocking long time ago. Dodge rolls are the king of mitigation.

Can't talk for magDks because magDks are soulless pyromaniacs so...

Currently roll dodge is much more effective than blocking.

I already know. SnB is in a pathetic state for open world.

Unsustainable, built in self snare when you block and you still eat tons of damage anyways.

The mobility nerfs also played a big role in this because blocking makes you a sitting duck now. Literally.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Bleeds should be hard to obtain and not be readily available for pressing one button for it to proc. People who defend bleeds can't play an actual build and will go to any degree to make excuses like the imaginary "heavy armor" meta when the truth is the only things that counter this is purge and resto ult. Master dual wield also needs to be toned down as it makes bleeds even more ridiculous. because 3-4k ticks with no real counter for just pressing rending slashes!? The block excuse would've worked like two years ago but these days a lot of things are unblockable and its actually better to dodge roll....

wheem_ESO

Minno wrote: »

resist stacking main weakness are bleeds. You probably wont see much difference if you dropped physical to 18k-21k but if you gained 4k crit resists you might see less peak damage, at least enough for you to LOS/heal.

Most encounters remove your advantage as soon as another enemy is added into the mix. Max most can handle is about 4 (BG size), because 4 times a 1k dots per second = 4k per second which will kill you in about 5 seconds.

Nothing is going to save you in those 5 seconds except turning that 4v1 into 1v1 where bleeds are manageable.

I know that bleeds ignore resists, which is one gripe I have with them. Switching to 3x Protective Jewelry was done for all the other damage Stam players are doing, alongside their 1 activated bleed and 1-2 proc'd bleeds (per player).

And when you say "gained 4k crit resists," I assume you mean bring the total crit resist up to 4k? Because getting to ~5.5k for Battlegrounds just isn't happening. I don't remember the numbers for Impregnable and Transmutation off the top of my head, but even that wouldn't quite get you there I don't think. Stacking the Impregnable set with 7/7 Impenetrable traits might get you somewhere in the ballpark of 4k total, but that's hardly a "cure" for the bleed epidemic in BGs.

BlackMadara wrote: »

About those recaps. Twin slashes ticks every 2s, so you took about 1k damage per tick, or 500 dps. Burning embers ticks every second, so you took almost 500 dps from that DK. Embers scales better with SD than twin does with WD, and factoring in your high spell resist, being a vamp, and his spell pen, that looks about right. You just see bigger numbers with twin slashes due to the tick rate compared to most other dots.

I don't think those players were using masters axes btw. If they had high WD and masters weapons, you would be taking about 400 more damage a tick I think, based on your defensive buff up times.

Rending Slashes does a small amount of damage when applied, then after 1 second passes, begins ticking once every 2 seconds. If we take the number from the screenshot (which, remember, is with basically as much damage reduction for bleeds as is possible in a Battleground, short of someone having Guard on you), we end up with a little over 2k damage in 3 seconds from the weakest bleed. Compare that to Burning Embers, which took literally twice as long (assuming it also waits 1 second after application before the first DOT tick happens?) to do < 300 more total damage. And that's with a significant damage boost from me being a Stage 4 Vampire.

If you're correct about those two players not using Master Weapons, that makes the damage swing even more in favor of bleeds for those who are using them. I assumed that the bleed numbers in that screenshot were so low because I had Minor Protection, Major Protection, and Undeath all running at the same time. Discounting Undeath for a moment, we could expect a 2k/tick bleed to be brought down to 1,288 by having both Minor and Major Protection up at the same time, while a 1.6k/tick bleed would come out to 1,030 with the same defenses. It's hard to calculate Undeath's effect on the numbers, since we don't know exactly what HP % I was at when the damage was calculated.

But as I said before, these are not typical bleed numbers, I just used that screenshot because it also contained the same Mag DK DOT that you mentioned, and from a player that I know for sure has some damage. The other two bleeds I mentioned before (3,331 and 3,649, at x2 each) are more representative of what I typically see, but still aren't the absolute highest. But since you mentioned Burning Embers, I posted the above screenshot.

CyrusArya

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I already know. SnB is in a pathetic state for open world.

Unsustainable, built in self snare when you block and you still eat tons of damage anyways.

The mobility nerfs also played a big role in this because blocking makes you a sitting duck now. Literally.

Sword and board builds are incredible in the right hands, for both stamina and magicka builds. You’re doing something horribly wrong if you think they are in a pathetic state, but I can point you towards many players on both NA and EU that can show you how it’s done. For stam builds, sword and board makes for the superior spec 1v1 and is also quite capable open world as well.

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Bleeds should be hard to obtain and not be readily available for pressing one button for it to proc. People who defend bleeds can't play an actual build and will go to any degree to make excuses like the imaginary "heavy armor" meta when the truth is the only things that counter this is purge and resto ult. Master dual wield also needs to be toned down as it makes bleeds even more ridiculous. because 3-4k ticks with no real counter for just pressing rending slashes!? The block excuse would've worked like to years ago but these days a lot of things are unblockable and its actually better to dodge roll....

That’s a logically fallacious argument rooted in emotions and not sense. I play with and without bleeds and find success in both formats- as do many people. For someone who claims to be an “extinct”solo player, it’s funny that you are ignorant to how bleeds are not exceptionally powerful when 1vX. They are also quite manageable in duels. The only place where bleeds are particularly oppressive is when outnumbered, but many things are tough to deal with in that scenario. But I mean if you think rending or any bleed can tick for 3-4k, than how valid are any of your claims?

As I have said and will stand by, the stacking of bleeds is an issue. Rending as a skill is completely fine. What the both of you and most people who cry about bleeds need to see is that while bleeds and dual wield are very strong, sword and board is also very powerful when played right. The problem is, the mouthpieces who whine the most about bleeds also underplay the strength of sword and board as these two comments demonstrate.

Joy_Division

I may hold an unpopular opinion, but I think cyrodiil needs strong, particularly damage, mechanics.

What exactly is going to kill you aside from that 2.5K tick when you're heavy armor block build can mitigate the vast majority of attacks that people use? Are people suppose to use liquid lightning and ask nicely that you stay inside it? Or is it only acceptable that it takes 4 to 5 people wailing on heavy armor block builds and overcoming them via sheer brute force?

My biggest issue with bleeds is that it's one of the few means of attack that is actually reasonable effective. If it stands out, the issue is most of the other mechanics out there are bad in comparison, not necessarily because it's too strong

Game has gone downhill because the vast majority of posts are one of two things:

1. I cant kill people using X, it has to be nerfed
2. I got killed by people using Y, it has to be nerfed.

Sharee

Joy_Division wrote: »

I may hold an unpopular opinion, but I think cyrodiil needs strong, particularly damage, mechanics.

What exactly is going to kill you aside from that 2.5K tick when you're heavy armor block build can mitigate the vast majority of attacks that people use? Are people suppose to use liquid lightning and ask nicely that you stay inside it? Or is it only acceptable that it takes 4 to 5 people wailing on heavy armor block builds and overcoming them via sheer brute force?

My biggest issue with bleeds is that it's one of the few means of attack that is actually reasonable effective. If it stands out, the issue is most of the other mechanics out there are bad in comparison, not necessarily because it's too strong

Game has gone downhill because the vast majority of posts are one of two things:

1. I cant kill people using X, it has to be nerfed
2. I got killed by people using Y, it has to be nerfed.

The problem is that bleeds are just as powerful against builds which are not such tanks, and which can already be killed just fine without bleeds. Add bleeds to that, and its goodnight.

montjie

To anyone defending bleeds in its current state I suggest you hop in a nocp fight against someone running axes, master dw, viper and let him slap a troll king set on there just for good measures...
If you stand by your opinion after that fight I'd really would like to know why.

Minno

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

resist stacking main weakness are bleeds. You probably wont see much difference if you dropped physical to 18k-21k but if you gained 4k crit resists you might see less peak damage, at least enough for you to LOS/heal.

Most encounters remove your advantage as soon as another enemy is added into the mix. Max most can handle is about 4 (BG size), because 4 times a 1k dots per second = 4k per second which will kill you in about 5 seconds.

Nothing is going to save you in those 5 seconds except turning that 4v1 into 1v1 where bleeds are manageable.

I know that bleeds ignore resists, which is one gripe I have with them. Switching to 3x Protective Jewelry was done for all the other damage Stam players are doing, alongside their 1 activated bleed and 1-2 proc'd bleeds (per player).

And when you say "gained 4k crit resists," I assume you mean bring the total crit resist up to 4k? Because getting to ~5.5k for Battlegrounds just isn't happening. I don't remember the numbers for Impregnable and Transmutation off the top of my head, but even that wouldn't quite get you there I don't think. Stacking the Impregnable set with 7/7 Impenetrable traits might get you somewhere in the ballpark of 4k total, but that's hardly a "cure" for the bleed epidemic in BGs.

BlackMadara wrote: »

About those recaps. Twin slashes ticks every 2s, so you took about 1k damage per tick, or 500 dps. Burning embers ticks every second, so you took almost 500 dps from that DK. Embers scales better with SD than twin does with WD, and factoring in your high spell resist, being a vamp, and his spell pen, that looks about right. You just see bigger numbers with twin slashes due to the tick rate compared to most other dots.

I don't think those players were using masters axes btw. If they had high WD and masters weapons, you would be taking about 400 more damage a tick I think, based on your defensive buff up times.

Rending Slashes does a small amount of damage when applied, then after 1 second passes, begins ticking once every 2 seconds. If we take the number from the screenshot (which, remember, is with basically as much damage reduction for bleeds as is possible in a Battleground, short of someone having Guard on you), we end up with a little over 2k damage in 3 seconds from the weakest bleed. Compare that to Burning Embers, which took literally twice as long (assuming it also waits 1 second after application before the first DOT tick happens?) to do < 300 more total damage. And that's with a significant damage boost from me being a Stage 4 Vampire.

If you're correct about those two players not using Master Weapons, that makes the damage swing even more in favor of bleeds for those who are using them. I assumed that the bleed numbers in that screenshot were so low because I had Minor Protection, Major Protection, and Undeath all running at the same time. Discounting Undeath for a moment, we could expect a 2k/tick bleed to be brought down to 1,288 by having both Minor and Major Protection up at the same time, while a 1.6k/tick bleed would come out to 1,030 with the same defenses. It's hard to calculate Undeath's effect on the numbers, since we don't know exactly what HP % I was at when the damage was calculated.

But as I said before, these are not typical bleed numbers, I just used that screenshot because it also contained the same Mag DK DOT that you mentioned, and from a player that I know for sure has some damage. The other two bleeds I mentioned before (3,331 and 3,649, at x2 each) are more representative of what I typically see, but still aren't the absolute highest. But since you mentioned Burning Embers, I posted the above screenshot.

In CP, u are fighting 1.7, 1.8 and with minor force 1.9.

In nCP you are going after 1.5, 1.6, and minor force 1.7.

Both have 40% crit chance on builds.
You don't need to fully counter crits, just make sure the typical builds aren't turning 15k tooltips into easy 20k hits every other attack.

pieratsos

Joy_Division wrote: »

I may hold an unpopular opinion, but I think cyrodiil needs strong, particularly damage, mechanics.

What exactly is going to kill you aside from that 2.5K tick when you're heavy armor block build can mitigate the vast majority of attacks that people use? Are people suppose to use liquid lightning and ask nicely that you stay inside it? Or is it only acceptable that it takes 4 to 5 people wailing on heavy armor block builds and overcoming them via sheer brute force?

My biggest issue with bleeds is that it's one of the few means of attack that is actually reasonable effective. If it stands out, the issue is most of the other mechanics out there are bad in comparison, not necessarily because it's too strong

Game has gone downhill because the vast majority of posts are one of two things:

1. I cant kill people using X, it has to be nerfed
2. I got killed by people using Y, it has to be nerfed.

The situation u are describing is similar with shieldbreaker and oblivion dmg crap in general. Please dont tell me that our class rep advocates for those stupid mechanics as well because "they are a necessary evil".

Softcaps. Thats ur solution. The issue isnt whether mechanic A is overperforming or not. The issue is that the game has no caps and people push builds to the extreme which as a result can make mechanic A severely overperforming and completely useless at the same time. This is clearly evident from the fact that you can literally tickle one guy with a full combo and then one shot the next one with one hit. Without softcaps to keep things in check the game will never be even remotely close to balanced and the endless cycle of fixing one thing that unintentionally breaks 10 more in the process will continue cause simply there are way too many variables for ZOS to take into consideration everytime they do balance changes.

If you didnt understand the relevance of all that with ur statement, then simply the issue isnt that you cant do anything against those unkillable tanks. The issue is that the game allows those builds to exist in the first place.

Extinct_Solo_Player

CyrusArya wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I already know. SnB is in a pathetic state for open world.

Unsustainable, built in self snare when you block and you still eat tons of damage anyways.

The mobility nerfs also played a big role in this because blocking makes you a sitting duck now. Literally.

Sword and board builds are incredible in the right hands, for both stamina and magicka builds. You’re doing something horribly wrong if you think they are in a pathetic state, but I can point you towards many players on both NA and EU that can show you how it’s done. For stam builds, sword and board makes for the superior spec 1v1 and is also quite capable open world as well.

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Bleeds should be hard to obtain and not be readily available for pressing one button for it to proc. People who defend bleeds can't play an actual build and will go to any degree to make excuses like the imaginary "heavy armor" meta when the truth is the only things that counter this is purge and resto ult. Master dual wield also needs to be toned down as it makes bleeds even more ridiculous. because 3-4k ticks with no real counter for just pressing rending slashes!? The block excuse would've worked like to years ago but these days a lot of things are unblockable and its actually better to dodge roll....

That’s a logically fallacious argument rooted in emotions and not sense. I play with and without bleeds and find success in both formats- as do many people. For someone who claims to be an “extinct”solo player, it’s funny that you are ignorant to how bleeds are not exceptionally powerful when 1vX. They are also quite manageable in duels. The only place where bleeds are particularly oppressive is when outnumbered, but many things are tough to deal with in that scenario. But I mean if you think rending or any bleed can tick for 3-4k, than how valid are any of your claims?

As I have said and will stand by, the stacking of bleeds is an issue. Rending as a skill is completely fine. What the both of you and most people who cry about bleeds need to see is that while bleeds and dual wield are very strong, sword and board is also very powerful when played right. The problem is, the mouthpieces who whine the most about bleeds also underplay the strength of sword and board as these two comments demonstrate.

Aw did i hurt your feelings by saying the truth? You think i'm lying about 3-4k bleed ticks when i have combat metric reports of it? Are you so in favour of bleeds that you do not see that its ruining 1vx/outnumbered gameplay? Lmfao im literally done. And before you start calling me some scrub who cant l2p then come to pc eu and see how you last when all you will see is recaps of bleeds done by people who literally only press rending xv1.

CyrusArya

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Aw did i hurt your feelings by saying the truth? You think i'm lying about 3-4k bleed ticks when i have combat metric reports of it? Are you so in favour of bleeds that you do not see that its ruining 1vx/outnumbered gameplay? Lmfao im literally done. And before you start calling me some scrub who cant l2p then come to pc eu and see how you last when all you will see is recaps of bleeds done by people who literally only press rending xv1.

Your biased and hysterical opinions are not the objective truth. Bleeds are strong but you are way exaggerating the issue. Please do show me 3-4k ticks of rending slashes. Which if they do exist, are on an extreme example that is not representative of the reality. Screenshots and death recaps never tell the full story, as there is never any context provided. Just a picture of damage in a vacuum. This is especially misleading for bleeds, which because they tick every two seconds as opposed to every one like most DoTs, appear to be much stronger than they actually are.

When I say bleeds are not that good 1vX, I mean for when you are the solo player. Yes they are oppressive when you are outnumbered, but so are a lot of things. But ruining solo and small scale? Nah myself and plenty of people are still finding success in this area. And while I do like high pressure builds that utilize bleeds, I have been advocating for nerfs to passive proc axe bleeds for a while. I just can’t stand people who speak in hyperbole to push biased narratives.

Extinct_Solo_Player

CyrusArya wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Aw did i hurt your feelings by saying the truth? You think i'm lying about 3-4k bleed ticks when i have combat metric reports of it? Are you so in favour of bleeds that you do not see that its ruining 1vx/outnumbered gameplay? Lmfao im literally done. And before you start calling me some scrub who cant l2p then come to pc eu and see how you last when all you will see is recaps of bleeds done by people who literally only press rending xv1.

Your biased and hysterical opinions are not the objective truth. Bleeds are strong but you are way exaggerating the issue. Please do show me 3-4k ticks of rending slashes. Which if they do exist, are on an extreme example that is not representative of the reality. Screenshots and death recaps never tell the full story, as there is never any context provided. Just a picture of damage in a vacuum. This is especially misleading for bleeds, which because they tick every two seconds as opposed to every one like most DoTs, appear to be much stronger than they actually are.

When I say bleeds are not that good 1vX, I mean for when you are the solo player. Yes they are oppressive when you are outnumbered, but so are a lot of things. But ruining solo and small scale? Nah myself and plenty of people are still finding success in this area. And while I do like high pressure builds that utilize bleeds, I have been advocating for nerfs to passive proc axe bleeds for a while. I just can’t stand people who speak in hyperbole to push biased narratives.

yeah well PC NA which is nothing compared to PC EU pvp lmfao. I shouldn't entertain hypocrites who call others biased. Everything you say is fact and if anyone else has their say with experiences vs bleeds obviously is hysterical and biased lmfao.

CyrusArya

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

yeah well PC NA which is nothing compared to PC EU pvp lmfao. I shouldn't entertain hypocrites who call others biased. Everything you say is fact and if anyone else has their say with experiences vs bleeds obviously is hysterical and biased lmfao.

I mean look at your verbiage, you’re too emotional for constructive dialogue. Yes I have biases, everyone does. I also try to be aware of that and look at matters objectively and wholistically. But please do point out where I claimed my opinions to be facts or the “truth” as you have. If you read what I have written calmly without getting upset, you’d see that I agree bleed damage as a whole could be toned down, the passive procs in particular. I just disagree with the degree to which people like you exaggerate the issue. Still waiting to see your 4k rending ticks on a properly built PvP character.

Regarding NA vs EU, I gather that people are ultra tryhard on EU from the top to the bottom. Having not played on both tho I can’t comment on that conclusively. Even still I’ve seen plenty of evidence of good EU small scalers finding success. Guess you’re not one of them huh? Guess that why you choose that username: Darwinism in action.

NuarBlack

Joy_Division wrote: »

I may hold an unpopular opinion, but I think cyrodiil needs strong, particularly damage, mechanics.

What exactly is going to kill you aside from that 2.5K tick when you're heavy armor block build can mitigate the vast majority of attacks that people use? Are people suppose to use liquid lightning and ask nicely that you stay inside it? Or is it only acceptable that it takes 4 to 5 people wailing on heavy armor block builds and overcoming them via sheer brute force?

My biggest issue with bleeds is that it's one of the few means of attack that is actually reasonable effective. If it stands out, the issue is most of the other mechanics out there are bad in comparison, not necessarily because it's too strong

Game has gone downhill because the vast majority of posts are one of two things:

1. I cant kill people using X, it has to be nerfed
2. I got killed by people using Y, it has to be nerfed.

I agree with you in general but disagree that it is block builds causing the problems. As block builds haven't been an issue for quite some time. To me it is the heavy armor passives mixed with troll king and vigor that make everyone so hard to kill. They all synergize so well.

But you are right about so many skills being so lackluster. Bleeds haven't been buffed that I recall. Just everything else has been nerfed that they have came up in comparison. Now some classes have stuff that is still good. NB and stamden for sure. As that is the only way to kill people now is to 100-0 them in a couple of globals and those two classes have the best burst combos. As my bet is you are not really dying to bleeds no matter what the recap says. The reality is that bleeds are there to push you into that burst combo range. While I think this is a legitimate play style and mechanic it is annoying that it is the only way to get kills cause everything else is just healed through.

Minno

CyrusArya wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

yeah well PC NA which is nothing compared to PC EU pvp lmfao. I shouldn't entertain hypocrites who call others biased. Everything you say is fact and if anyone else has their say with experiences vs bleeds obviously is hysterical and biased lmfao.

I mean look at your verbiage, you’re too emotional for constructive dialogue. Yes I have biases, everyone does. I also try to be aware of that and look at matters objectively and wholistically. But please do point out where I claimed my opinions to be facts or the “truth” as you have. If you read what I have written calmly without getting upset, you’d see that I agree bleed damage as a whole could be toned down, the passive procs in particular. I just disagree with the degree to which people like you exaggerate the issue. Still waiting to see your 4k rending ticks on a properly built PvP character.

Regarding NA vs EU, I gather that people are ultra tryhard on EU from the top to the bottom. Having not played on both tho I can’t comment on that conclusively. Even still I’ve seen plenty of evidence of good EU small scalers finding success. Guess you’re not one of them huh? Guess that why you choose that username: Darwinism in action.

I want to see that screenshot too. I'm willing to bet it's 1tick and crit off with a 1.9 modifier against his 2500 lol.

BuddyAces

CyrusArya wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

yeah well PC NA which is nothing compared to PC EU pvp lmfao. I shouldn't entertain hypocrites who call others biased. Everything you say is fact and if anyone else has their say with experiences vs bleeds obviously is hysterical and biased lmfao.

I mean look at your verbiage, you’re too emotional for constructive dialogue. Yes I have biases, everyone does. I also try to be aware of that and look at matters objectively and wholistically. But please do point out where I claimed my opinions to be facts or the “truth” as you have. If you read what I have written calmly without getting upset, you’d see that I agree bleed damage as a whole could be toned down, the passive procs in particular. I just disagree with the degree to which people like you exaggerate the issue. Still waiting to see your 4k rending ticks on a properly built PvP character.

Regarding NA vs EU, I gather that people are ultra tryhard on EU from the top to the bottom. Having not played on both tho I can’t comment on that conclusively. Even still I’ve seen plenty of evidence of good EU small scalers finding success. Guess you’re not one of them huh? Guess that why you choose that username: Darwinism in action.

Ouch lol

TimeDazzler

Heres my 2 cents. Bleeds are balanced in CP and too strong in no-CP, I would like to see more of a middle by keeping bleeds the same in CP and nerfing them in no-CP. I think bleeds in CP could be strong but with how overturned healing is in CP you don't notice the DoT pressure as you do in no-CP. Bleed stacking in no-CP (particularly battlegrounds), against any class besides templars is absurd. Throw on 2-master axes, double DoT poisons, valkyn skoria, your choice of two bleed abilities (typically rending, poison injection, carve unless playing DK) and watch people just melt. You don't even need a spammable, make reverse slice or spin2win your spammable and if you're a DK add petrify, if not add reverb bash. #Outskilled

RinaldoGandolphi

Like @Minno and @CyrusArya have said.

Yes, Bleeds are probably too strong when you have multiple people applying them to you, but thats probably true of most of the games mechanics. Master Axes could probably use a very slight adjustment, but bleeds on non-master axe setups are manageable to deal with unless you have 3-4 people putting separate bleeds on you, in that case you would struggle no matter what it was.

I think folks blow things out of proportion when it comes to how strong bleeds are from a single source. I have never seen a 3-4k per tick bleed in my playing time, i'd love to see a screenshot if someone has one.

The best counters to bleeds are purges, Major Protection, and Minor maim, Major Protection and Minor maim are pretty easy to get on mag builds (Wizard Riposte, Choking Talons, Pirate Skeleton, and Lights champion off the top of my head.

if you got multiple anything on you from multiple people and you can't LOS, or somehow relieve pressure, then good luck. Your not going to survive very long, it is what is is. If we nerf everything nothing will ever die.

Ragnarock41

Cries wrote: »

Heres my 2 cents. Bleeds are balanced in CP and too strong in no-CP, I would like to see more of a middle by keeping bleeds the same in CP and nerfing them in no-CP. I think bleeds in CP could be strong but with how overturned healing is in CP you don't notice the DoT pressure as you do in no-CP. Bleed stacking in no-CP (particularly battlegrounds), against any class besides templars is absurd. Throw on 2-master axes, double DoT poisons, valkyn skoria, your choice of two bleed abilities (typically rending, poison injection, carve unless playing DK) and watch people just melt. You don't even need a spammable, make reverse slice or spin2win your spammable and if you're a DK add petrify, if not add reverb bash. #Outskilled

Once again the issue is CP being a crutch for any build and the game is being balanced on that crutch. Me and many of my friends playing in no-cp ended up using bleed builds because everything else is just inferior in no-cp. Bleeds provide the easiest damage with little to no sustain hits, while troll king provides the easiest healing with again little to no sustain hits.

Again, you can use a bow or SnB or 2h uppercut, but lets get real, why bother when you can have a free spammable via bleeds? Or why not combine bleeds with a spammable? There is no reason not to use axes.

This creates a situation where a player not using TK and bleeds is at a MASSIVE disadvantage compared to one using them. Both of these things need a nerf, and no, buffing other things won't solve this issue. Both doing damage and healing should require an effort, a player not using his vigor correctly should price the pay, a player who can't properly use spammables should not beat the one who does.

Not to mention these bleed procs are literally RNG. And everybody knows what people think of RNG in any somewhat competitive game.

As for the problematic, very low TTK in CP campaign; I think its obvious that CP is to blame for this. Its too much power, too much sustain, too much healing. This whole system needs a rework. It can stay the same in PvE, however it should be seriously tuned down for PvP.

Joy_Division

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Cries wrote: »

Heres my 2 cents. Bleeds are balanced in CP and too strong in no-CP, I would like to see more of a middle by keeping bleeds the same in CP and nerfing them in no-CP. I think bleeds in CP could be strong but with how overturned healing is in CP you don't notice the DoT pressure as you do in no-CP. Bleed stacking in no-CP (particularly battlegrounds), against any class besides templars is absurd. Throw on 2-master axes, double DoT poisons, valkyn skoria, your choice of two bleed abilities (typically rending, poison injection, carve unless playing DK) and watch people just melt. You don't even need a spammable, make reverse slice or spin2win your spammable and if you're a DK add petrify, if not add reverb bash. #Outskilled

Once again the issue is CP being a crutch for any build and the game is being balanced on that crutch. Me and many of my friends playing in no-cp ended up using bleed builds because everything else is just inferior in no-cp. Bleeds provide the easiest damage with little to no sustain hits, while troll king provides the easiest healing with again little to no sustain hits.

Again, you can use a bow or SnB or 2h uppercut, but lets get real, why bother when you can have a free spammable via bleeds? Or why not combine bleeds with a spammable? There is no reason not to use axes.

This creates a situation where a player not using TK and bleeds is at a MASSIVE disadvantage compared to one using them. Both of these things need a nerf, and no, buffing other things won't solve this issue. Both doing damage and healing should require an effort, a player not using his vigor correctly should price the pay, a player who can't properly use spammables should not beat the one who does.

Not to mention these bleed procs are literally RNG. And everybody knows what people think of RNG in any somewhat competitive game.

As for the problematic, very low TTK in CP campaign; I think its obvious that CP is to blame for this. Its too much power, too much sustain, too much healing. This whole system needs a rework. It can stay the same in PvE, however it should be seriously tuned down for PvP.

How is it obvious? When I group que for no CP BGs, its a snoozefest if I'm matched-up Vs a premade because they and other people who know what they are doing usually don;t die unless it's an ultimate bomb or proc sets. You're making that assertion because of your own personal biases, which you made quite clear by calling CP a "crutch."

The Morrowind patch with all of it's nerfs was awful and now you want to "seriously tune down" sustain and power even more? How exactly is that going to improve the game? Do you envision after nerfing the crap out of people's power, sustain, and healing, they are going to all of a sudden run out a farm offensive glass cannon oriented sets and everyone will kill and die faster? Why would they do that? If I have no sustain, I'm farming sustain sets. If you nerf my healing, I'm wearing Earth-gore or Troll King. If you nerf my power, I'm going to wear a proc set because now it's the only way I can get power because of all the nerfs. It's not a bug mystery that gear sets, specially procs, are huge problems in a no CP environment because our power and sustain is too limited to rely on our (already) nerfed abilities. You'd just make the problem worse.

StShoot

Joy_Division
The Morrowind patch with all of it's nerfs was awful and now you want to "seriously tune down" sustain and power even more? How exactly is that going to improve the game? Do you envision after nerfing the crap out of people's power, sustain, and healing, they are going to all of a sudden run out a farm offensive glass cannon oriented sets and everyone will kill and die faster? Why would they do that? If I have no sustain, I'm farming sustain sets. If you nerf my healing, I'm wearing Earth-gore or Troll King. If you nerf my power, I'm going to wear a proc set because now it's the only way I can get power because of all the nerfs. It's not a bug mystery that gear sets, specially procs, are huge problems in a no CP environment because our power and sustain is too limited to rely on our (already) nerfed abilities. You'd just make the problem worse.

Just curious did you just say, that high heal/dmg procs are okay if ppl cant manage to play without it xD?
The Problem is that the game ALLOWS those high procs....

Regarding the dmg that was "lost" with morrowind, the dmg never was higher... (in pve AND pvp)

But if i interpret your "Zos please update Templars" thread right you are maining a templar, so i understand why you dont see the problem with bleeding dmg ;D

Hochstapler

"The dmg never was higher" is true in PVE, not so much in PVP.
The damage ( or power as Joy calls it) got a major boost with summerset was it?, after 2h weapons started counting as 2 pieces so all of a sudden PVE dps could equip 3 damage sets, something you can't do in PVP.
Well, you can but you are not going to have a good time lol.
Also, boosts to light attacks and making armor sets that promote excesive use of LAs is the other reason, also mainly PVE oriented change.

I agree with Joy on this issue.