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Bleed is killing PVP
Patro
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The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
30
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raasdal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stop Permablocking.
Your welcome.PC - EU
Gromag Gro-Molag - Sorcerer - EP
Dexion Velus - Dragonknight - AD
Chalaux Erissa - Nightblade - AD
Firiel Erissa - Templar - AD35 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bleeds specifically exist to counter heavy armor block builds. There’s an argument to be made that they’e somewhat over performing against non-tank builds, but in your specific case it sounds like they’re doing the job ZOS wants them to do.
Just keep practicing and tweaking your build and eventually you’ll find ways to deal with your spec’s natural counters. This is the path of the gitgud and we all must walk it.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.33 -
Checkmath✭✭✭✭✭
✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Well neither blocking nor heavy armor does reduce the bleed ticks....10 -
Patro✭✭✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Well neither blocking nor heavy armor does reduce the bleed ticks....
indeed!2 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭The counter to bleeds is major protection, critical resistance and if you are in a champion point enabled zone champion points. Bleeds only ignore armor resistance. When those are ignored in non-champ zones the full protection of major protection comes into effect, giving 30% damage reduction to the bleeds. If your critical resistance can cancel out their critical damage it further reduces the incoming damage.5
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Patro✭✭✭The counter to bleeds is major protection, critical resistance and if you are in a champion point enabled zone champion points. Bleeds only ignore armor resistance. When those are ignored in non-champ zones the full protection of major protection comes into effect, giving 30% damage reduction to the bleeds. If your critical resistance can cancel out their critical damage it further reduces the incoming damage.
Major protection and critical resistance are useful for any kind of damage.
The problem is the amount of exaggerated damage caused by every tick of bleed dot.Edited by Patro on November 7, 2018 1:13PM9 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes they are OP, I doubt that any competitive PvP player denies that.
On top of that they make DoT builds very effective and here is the funny part.
If you ask which class is the DoT class in ESO, most of the people will say DKs.
But the DoT build for DKs are not the best builds in PvP right now.
Anyway, the bleed mechanic is a legacy from the perma block builds before the block cost changes.Because I can!9 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The counter to bleeds is major protection, critical resistance and if you are in a champion point enabled zone champion points. Bleeds only ignore armor resistance. When those are ignored in non-champ zones the full protection of major protection comes into effect, giving 30% damage reduction to the bleeds. If your critical resistance can cancel out their critical damage it further reduces the incoming damage.
Major Protection isn’t a counter. It’s too rare for that. You can get it via some ultimates, two monster set procs, and channeling a Psijic skill with the corresponding passive. Bleeds are everywhere in contrast and easy to apply. That’s part of the problem - the ease.
Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.12 -
Patro✭✭✭Yes they are OP, I doubt that any competitive PvP player denies that.
On top of that they make DoT builds very effective and here is the funny part.
If you ask which class is the DoT class in ESO, most of the people will say DKs.
But the DoT build for DKs are not the best builds in PvP right now.
Anyway, the bleed mechanic is a legacy from the perma block builds before the block cost changes.
Block mechanic has changed, bleed should change too.
11 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭The counter to bleeds is major protection, critical resistance and if you are in a champion point enabled zone champion points. Bleeds only ignore armor resistance. When those are ignored in non-champ zones the full protection of major protection comes into effect, giving 30% damage reduction to the bleeds. If your critical resistance can cancel out their critical damage it further reduces the incoming damage.
Major Protection isn’t a counter. It’s too rare for that. You can get it via some ultimates, two monster set procs, and channeling a Psijic skill with the corresponding passive. Bleeds are everywhere in contrast and easy to apply. That’s part of the problem - the ease.
Major protection can have a high up time when used correctly. I use major protection on my tankblade to counter the bleed builds and it does well. If by everywhere you mean multiple players attacking one target at once then that doesn’t just apply to bleeds; if skills then ones with bleed are not everywhere. In one vs one scenarios bleeds can be countered.0 -
Idinuse✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bleeds specifically exist to counter heavy armor block builds. There’s an argument to be made that they’e somewhat over performing against non-tank builds, but in your specific case it sounds like they’re doing the job ZOS wants them to do.
Just keep practicing and tweaking your build and eventually you’ll find ways to deal with your spec’s natural counters. This is the path of the gitgud and we all must walk it.
Except the bleed cheese don't have to "gitgud". The argument has been used to exhaustion for every other skills that needed "gitgud", usually magicka based, but I guess Stam needs to pwn, I get it.Sed ut perspiciatis unde omnis iste natus error sit voluptatem accusantium dolorem que laudantium, totam rem aperiam, eaque ipsa quae ab illo inventore veritatis et quasi architecto beatae vitae dicta sunt explicabo. Nemo enim ipsam voluptatem quia voluptas sit aspernatur aut odit aut fugit, sed quia consequuntur magni dolores eos qui ratione voluptatem sequi nesciunt. Neque porro quisquam est, qui dolorem ipsum quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non numquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem. Ut enim ad minima veniam, quis nostrum exercitationem ullam corporis suscipit laboriosam, nisi ut aliquid ex ea commodi consequatur? Quis autem vel eum iure reprehenderit qui in ea voluptate velit esse quam nihil molestiae consequatur, vel illum qui dolorem eum fugiat quo voluptas nulla pariatur?11 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bleed-damage in general: Not really
Certain sources of bleed-damage: Yes. I would tune down twin-blade and blunt + heavy weapon passive tooltip.1 -
raistin87✭✭✭Bleeds specifically exist to counter heavy armor block builds. There’s an argument to be made that they’e somewhat over performing against non-tank builds, but in your specific case it sounds like they’re doing the job ZOS wants them to do.
Just keep practicing and tweaking your build and eventually you’ll find ways to deal with your spec’s natural counters. This is the path of the gitgud and we all must walk it.
Well, it seems that bleed counter everything, not just heavy and block
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes they are OP, I doubt that any competitive PvP player denies that.
On top of that they make DoT builds very effective and here is the funny part.
If you ask which class is the DoT class in ESO, most of the people will say DKs.
But the DoT build for DKs are not the best builds in PvP right now.
Anyway, the bleed mechanic is a legacy from the perma block builds before the block cost changes.
Block mechanic has changed, bleed should change too.
That is what I pointed.Because I can!1 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭Bleeds alone aren't really overpowered. You can do the same or more damage with your dots as a mDK with burning embers in light armor than a stam toon stacking weapon damage with rending.
The problem is other modifiers to bleeds. Master axes instantly makes rending outperform all other dots in pvp. Add to that the free bleed you get from axe passives, and then bleeds become a tad bit overwhelming compared to other dots.
Master axes are difficult to get, so I understand their power. The axe passive though is ridiculous when you think about balance. Originally, axes lent towards sustained damage, with swords for burst, and maces for tanky targets. Now with bleeds ignoring resists, maces have lost their niche. I think the damage for the bleed procs should be lowered and proc chance increased to better orient them to the dps niche.1 -
Nser✭✭✭pvp in this game is dead even mdk class if u want to enjoy go stamina nb cancer like everyone
you gonna have:
-bleed dots
-enchants proc d/w damage health
-poisons proc 2h
-viper proc
-sload set proc damage health proc
-monster set w/e proc
-hight sustain and heals vigor and damage
everything in 1 sec
Nice balance Worbel what mdk can do with this ?
good luck in pvp
@ZOS_Wrobel
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Starlight_Knight✭✭✭✭✭
✭Permablocking died a long time ago.
Now it’s possible to block only a few attacks.
i second this, Perma blocking is a fiction. especially in BG's where its non cp.. i wish it wasn't as that was a satisfying game play style for some people.. You can even run all sturdy and still only be able to block a small about of damage before you get destroyed.2 -
The_Brosteen✭✭✭✭✭It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
Well thats kind of the point, its meant to be a counter to builds that mainly block most of the time for defense. Remember when everyone complained about "unkillable permablockers?"
I honestly think bleeds should just do more damage based on the physical resistance of who its applied on like mauls do. Or just dont have it ignore physical resistance.
The bottom line is that bleeds havent changed at all in the damage they do for some time now, they just happen to be popular recently.
People always call for nerfs on whats popular, because its what they see most often on their death recaps.2 -
Patro✭✭✭BlackMadara wrote: »Bleeds alone aren't really overpowered. You can do the same or more damage with your dots as a mDK with burning embers in light armor than a stam toon stacking weapon damage with rending.
The problem is other modifiers to bleeds. Master axes instantly makes rending outperform all other dots in pvp. Add to that the free bleed you get from axe passives, and then bleeds become a tad bit overwhelming compared to other dots.
Master axes are difficult to get, so I understand their power. The axe passive though is ridiculous when you think about balance. Originally, axes lent towards sustained damage, with swords for burst, and maces for tanky targets. Now with bleeds ignoring resists, maces have lost their niche. I think the damage for the bleed procs should be lowered and proc chance increased to better orient them to the dps niche.
All that matters is the final result and not how you got it.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The counter to bleeds is major protection, critical resistance and if you are in a champion point enabled zone champion points. Bleeds only ignore armor resistance. When those are ignored in non-champ zones the full protection of major protection comes into effect, giving 30% damage reduction to the bleeds. If your critical resistance can cancel out their critical damage it further reduces the incoming damage.
Major protection and critical resistance are useful for any kind of damage.
The problem is the amount of exaggerated damage caused by every tick of bleed dot.
Well the equation changed a little, but not much to impact bleeds. There are still changes that help even it out a little:
- additional sources of major protection available, where before there was only pirate skeleton or ironblood with resto skill giving it to only one person (warden ultimate as well as nightblade/templar ultimates).
- shields are critted against, but also benefit from crit resists. No longer are bleeds dealing closer to true damage, unless their CHD modifer is higher than your puny resists (3300 is bare bones, 4000-4700 is the new minimum).
- healing is higher in CP due to the CP boosts and elfborn/percise strikes actually impacts healing. Much easier to deal with bleeds in CP than in a BG/nCP.
What doesn't help:
- speed got nerfed. The best counter for alot of stuff got reduced hard. I can't tell people to kite and heal now lol.
- weapons that give a bleed or increase the strength of bleeds. Dots in general ignore GCD as their primary benefit and the tooltips that show each tick per second instead of x over 10 seconds are generally terrible to reduce via percentage based mitigation (% sucks against small numbers if you are looking for a large gain). Having sets increase these by double, aren't helping.
- not alot of GCD ignoring hots in the game, at least for a solo build to stack together without heavy tradeoffs but there are 3 ways to stack bleeds per person.
Solution?:
-wyrd tree purge cooldown dropped to 10 second + add resists to the 5pc to make it a nice defensive set option,
- add life steal access to another set or two,
- resto siphon spirit skill to be instant cast,
- return speed to classes that need it, and
- add a few extra ways to cancel out crit hit damage (jewel traits).
1.7/1.8 modifier doesn't take much trade-off in CP (just stack CP on your free 50% base CHD and add a skill from your passive if you are templar/nb or minor force), but you have to waste an entire 5pc set+CP+Trait stack to fully counter it to zero. Life steal wants to be the counter to bleeds, but has no viable application outside groups nor AOE application. resto siphon spirit underperforms compared to ele drain, because of the cast time. purge isnt available cheaply, even for templars so wyrd tree can fill this void; especially for templars looking to swap out their required (but costly) skill to fit something more offensive or speed related. Speed needs to be looked at again.
As of right now, players do not have the tools to counter bleeds and that is why it's too prevalent.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Patro✭✭✭The counter to bleeds is major protection, critical resistance and if you are in a champion point enabled zone champion points. Bleeds only ignore armor resistance. When those are ignored in non-champ zones the full protection of major protection comes into effect, giving 30% damage reduction to the bleeds. If your critical resistance can cancel out their critical damage it further reduces the incoming damage.
Major protection and critical resistance are useful for any kind of damage.
The problem is the amount of exaggerated damage caused by every tick of bleed dot.
Well the equation changed a little, but not much to impact bleeds. There are still changes that help even it out a little:
- additional sources of major protection available, where before there was only pirate skeleton or ironblood with resto skill giving it to only one person (warden ultimate as well as nightblade/templar ultimates).
- shields are critted against, but also benefit from crit resists. No longer are bleeds dealing closer to true damage, unless their CHD modifer is higher than your puny resists (3300 is bare bones, 4000-4700 is the new minimum).
- healing is higher in CP due to the CP boosts and elfborn/percise strikes actually impacts healing. Much easier to deal with bleeds in CP than in a BG/nCP.
What doesn't help:
- speed got nerfed. The best counter for alot of stuff got reduced hard. I can't tell people to kite and heal now lol.
- weapons that give a bleed or increase the strength of bleeds. Dots in general ignore GCD as their primary benefit and the tooltips that show each tick per second instead of x over 10 seconds are generally terrible to reduce via percentage based mitigation (% sucks against small numbers if you are looking for a large gain). Having sets increase these by double, aren't helping.
- not alot of GCD ignoring hots in the game, at least for a solo build to stack together without heavy tradeoffs but there are 3 ways to stack bleeds per person.
Solution?:
-wyrd tree purge cooldown dropped to 10 second + add resists to the 5pc to make it a nice defensive set option,
- add life steal access to another set or two,
- resto siphon spirit skill to be instant cast,
- return speed to classes that need it, and
- add a few extra ways to cancel out crit hit damage (jewel traits).
1.7/1.8 modifier doesn't take much trade-off in CP (just stack CP on your free 50% base CHD and add a skill from your passive if you are templar/nb or minor force), but you have to waste an entire 5pc set+CP+Trait stack to fully counter it to zero. Life steal wants to be the counter to bleeds, but has no viable application outside groups nor AOE application. resto siphon spirit underperforms compared to ele drain, because of the cast time. purge isnt available cheaply, even for templars so wyrd tree can fill this void; especially for templars looking to swap out their required (but costly) skill to fit something more offensive or speed related. Speed needs to be looked at again.
As of right now, players do not have the tools to counter bleeds and that is why it's too prevalent.
The solution is very simple: change the bleed mechanics.
The nerf at speed was a positive thing for magicka DK.Edited by Patro on November 7, 2018 6:54PM2 -
Ender1310✭✭✭✭The bleed builds have now reached absurd levels. It's also unacceptable to take 2.5k every tick of bleed damage in heavy armor while blocking.
My main character is a magicka dk and there's an excessive disproportion between bleed and fire dots.
I'm not the only one to complain about it, I hope ZOS decides to do something about it!
Well neither blocking nor heavy armor does reduce the bleed ticks....
That's his point I think...
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Sarousse✭✭✭✭✭
✭Permablocking died a long time ago.
Now it’s possible to block only a few attacks.
Just LOL.
Permablocking cancerbuilds have never been that powerful since Murkmire patch.
Without bleeds and oblivion damage it would be just impossible to kill them.Edited by Sarousse on November 7, 2018 7:32PM6 -
Patro✭✭✭
There are no more magick builds that are able to permablocking and do good damage.Edited by Patro on November 7, 2018 7:45PM5 -
CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
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There are no more magick builds that are able to permablocking and do good damage.
You don’t need to permablock if you know how to selectively block well. It will always be there when you need it. Good luck to any stam build that tries to kill my magplar without bleeds...it’s never gonna happen unless I mess up.1
