Bleed is killing PVP

Ragnarock41

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

wheem_ESO

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

Minno wrote: »

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

The only way you're going to touch that level of crit resist in no-CP is with 7 pieces of Impenetrable gear and Impregnable + Transmutation (though the latter could be provided by someone else, if he always runs premades).

And of course it's not always easy to get both Minor and Major Protection. But as someone who has access to both (via Ice Fortress and Pirate Skeleton), I can still get wrecked by Bleeds. I've said it before, but the difference in surviving against Magicka builds and surviving against Stamina builds is night and day, and it's largely due to Bleeds (and also Dawnbreaker bombs).

BlackMadara wrote: »

The main problem with bleeds are master's axes and the damage from free weapon bleeds. Master's axes give a large increase in damage, which is partially justified by them being a hard to acquire item in an mmorpg.

I don't think it's really justified, since they're obtained through non-trivial PvE content. It's fine if they're amazing in PvE, but they should never be top tier in PvP. That would be like telling dedicated PvE players that they're forced to put together a 4 man premade in BGs, and go 4v4v4 against two other full premades that are actually good, and win, just to get a chance at the best PvE weapons for their build.

Minno

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

So stop playing in nCP?
Nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, increasing the crit resists/major protection availability is.

But what do I know, I just play ESO casually.

Minno

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

Minno wrote: »

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

The only way you're going to touch that level of crit resist in no-CP is with 7 pieces of Impenetrable gear and Impregnable + Transmutation (though the latter could be provided by someone else, if he always runs premades).

And of course it's not always easy to get both Minor and Major Protection. But as someone who has access to both (via Ice Fortress and Pirate Skeleton), I can still get wrecked by Bleeds. I've said it before, but the difference in surviving against Magicka builds and surviving against Stamina builds is night and day, and it's largely due to Bleeds (and also Dawnbreaker bombs).

BlackMadara wrote: »

The main problem with bleeds are master's axes and the damage from free weapon bleeds. Master's axes give a large increase in damage, which is partially justified by them being a hard to acquire item in an mmorpg.

I don't think it's really justified, since they're obtained through non-trivial PvE content. It's fine if they're amazing in PvE, but they should never be top tier in PvP. That would be like telling dedicated PvE players that they're forced to put together a 4 man premade in BGs, and go 4v4v4 against two other full premades that are actually good, and win, just to get a chance at the best PvE weapons for their build.

Missing the last component, HOTS+reposition. Mag builds don't really have an answer to either (except magplar with purge+burst heal+purfying light vigor style AOE heal). But I stopped playing nCP though once I realized a NB can still get a 1.7 modifer on 1800 crit resists lol.

They need more sources of escaping/repositioning outside of vampire for mag builds. That plus my other suggestions will help pvp the most; not nerfs like all your nerds keep suggesting lol.

wheem_ESO

Minno wrote: »

So stop playing in nCP?

And PvP only in the CP-Cyrodiil campaign? I'd rather quit and uninstall.

Ragnarock41

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

So stop playing in nCP?
Nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, increasing the crit resists/major protection availability is.

But what do I know, I just play ESO casually.

İncreasing crit resist/major protection avaliability is a nice way to doom every build that doesn't use bleeds, as if there are any left as far as stamina is concerned. If nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, then the answer is making every other dot perform like bleeds because It doesn't do justice that my class specific dots do less than free proc dots.

Minno

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

So stop playing in nCP?
Nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, increasing the crit resists/major protection availability is.

But what do I know, I just play ESO casually.

İncreasing crit resist/major protection avaliability is a nice way to doom every build that doesn't use bleeds, as if there are any left as far as stamina is concerned. If nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, then the answer is making every other dot perform like bleeds because It doesn't do justice that my class specific dots do less than free proc dots.

They already did increase major pro availability. Still not seeing any issues, as the more mitigation you tack on, the less effective it is. Penetration > than bleeds for those that don't have access to them, and if you are rocking a staff there isn't much reason to try to outdo stamina's access to higher weapon damage, when you have higher access to spell penetration via staff passives+the best major breach access in the game.

I don't think the community appreciates the greater picture on some of these systems. I think the only thing they should do is tone down the weapon passives giving bleeds via axes or look into their uptime. But that is it.

HallowedUndead

Lol, i use bleed builds and good players can easily survive my stacks of bleed. Not impossible

Ragnarock41

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

So stop playing in nCP?
Nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, increasing the crit resists/major protection availability is.

But what do I know, I just play ESO casually.

İncreasing crit resist/major protection avaliability is a nice way to doom every build that doesn't use bleeds, as if there are any left as far as stamina is concerned. If nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, then the answer is making every other dot perform like bleeds because It doesn't do justice that my class specific dots do less than free proc dots.

They already did increase major pro availability. Still not seeing any issues, as the more mitigation you tack on, the less effective it is. Penetration > than bleeds for those that don't have access to them, and if you are rocking a staff there isn't much reason to try to outdo stamina's access to higher weapon damage, when you have higher access to spell penetration via staff passives+the best major breach access in the game.

I don't think the community appreciates the greater picture on some of these systems. I think the only thing they should do is tone down the weapon passives giving bleeds via axes or look into their uptime. But that is it.

I don't think there is anything to be appreciated in a meta where the best healing over time sources and the best damage over time sources are also the easiest ones to use. I don't think there is a ''greater picture'' in the ''TK-bleed-stack weapon damage'' meta we're having. It exists because they've nerfed everything else to a point where they cannot compete anymore.

Crit resist, minor/major protection,minor/major maim, CP passives, those things applies to all the dots damage. Though I don't expect you to try and understand that, considering your talk of the ''bigger picture'' while ignoring who's totally ignored in this meme of a meta.

A 9 year old can realize zenimax is clueless. There is no bigger picture.

Juhasow

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Master dual wield is somewhat a proc set. It have non scaled numeric dmg component in it same like many other sets commonly called proc sets. The difference is this proc component can crit and deals bleed dmg - strongest dmg type after oblivion dmg.

Raudgrani

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

Thogard

Raudgrani wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

I think what wheem is trying to say is that after the bleeds are applied, the attacker begins using more traditional types of damage that stack with the bleeds... they don’t just sit there and watch after getting the bleeds on someone.

Raudgrani

Thogard wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

I think what wheem is trying to say is that after the bleeds are applied, the attacker begins using more traditional types of damage that stack with the bleeds... they don’t just sit there and watch after getting the bleeds on someone.

Well that doesn't change anything, does it? It's like in real life, someone has a bad breath - stay away. You don't necessarily need to stand on their feet.

wheem_ESO

Raudgrani wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

We're not necessarily on the same page, since Thaumaturge is 100% irrelevant to all of the PvP I do. You can have 0 points or 100 points into it, and it won't make an iota of difference since CP isn't going to be in effect. The only thing that matters for a "Bleed Build" in Battlegrounds or Sotha Sil is equipping axes; preferably Master DW Axes. That's all. There's no big sacrifice; your other abilities aren't going to do less damage, survivability remains the same, your mobility isn't going to suffer, etc...You simply gain 1-2 proc DOTs that are better than every other DOT in the game, except for your activated DOT + Snare.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

I think what wheem is trying to say is that after the bleeds are applied, the attacker begins using more traditional types of damage that stack with the bleeds... they don’t just sit there and watch after getting the bleeds on someone.

Well that doesn't change anything, does it? It's like in real life, someone has a bad breath - stay away. You don't necessarily need to stand on their feet.

Yea, cause Magicka is more mobile than Stamina and spammable gap closers are just a figment of our imagination.

Raudgrani

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

We're not necessarily on the same page, since Thaumaturge is 100% irrelevant to all of the PvP I do. You can have 0 points or 100 points into it, and it won't make an iota of difference since CP isn't going to be in effect. The only thing that matters for a "Bleed Build" in Battlegrounds or Sotha Sil is equipping axes; preferably Master DW Axes. That's all. There's no big sacrifice; your other abilities aren't going to do less damage, survivability remains the same, your mobility isn't going to suffer, etc...You simply gain 1-2 proc DOTs that are better than every other DOT in the game, except for your activated DOT + Snare.

Raudgrani wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Bleeds can be strong on a dedicated bleed build, but that guy can't make you bleed unless you let him too close to you, so don't do that. If they specialize in this, they will lack a lot of other offensive capabilities.

The only thing required for a "dedicated bleed build" is equipping axes (with Master DW obviously being the best), there's no big trade off involved. And you're saying "don't let him get close to you" in regards to a Stamina build in Elder Scrolls Online PvP? You're trolling us, right?

No. You are doing the trolling, or you haven't tried making a bleed build. Using axes and using rending slashes won't cause any fatal type of bleeds, unless you are completely new to the game. If you are gonna bleed somedone dry for real, you need to invest an unnatural amount of points into Thamuaturge for example, and many of them will use DW/2H with axes on both, meaning they will probably lack decent ranged abilities.
If they killed you with some total of 15k bleeds a minute ago, are you really stupid enough to face them within 5-7 meters again? Take him out ranged, stun him or knock him down and give him burst - or stay away and pick someone else. I don't rush up to a MagDk first thing either, because I don't want to get rooted and whipped. It doesn't turn me on even a little bit.

I think what wheem is trying to say is that after the bleeds are applied, the attacker begins using more traditional types of damage that stack with the bleeds... they don’t just sit there and watch after getting the bleeds on someone.

Well that doesn't change anything, does it? It's like in real life, someone has a bad breath - stay away. You don't necessarily need to stand on their feet.

Yea, cause Magicka is more mobile than Stamina and spammable gap closers are just a figment of our imagination.

Well, as stated previously - let them close then if you're in no CP. I don't step into either MagDK's close range, or people I see doing nothing but Subassault, Steel Tornado and Dawnbreaker. They really shouldn't need to change the game in order for you to play the way you want and win. I don't know how you manage to see bleeds as some huge problem. I can't remember when i DIED from bleeds in BG's, probably never. It might show up on recap, yes. But that's far from the main cause, neither in BG's or CP Cyrodiil; other than meeting someone who's really focusing on bleeds. You can deal with them too you know. There are snares, roots and knocking people down, ranged attacks and simply attacking them when they are busy with others.

This "we got to nerf" nonsense reallt gotta go. A game can't be about nerfing and buffing classes, abilities and sets all the time. It never stops. You have to adjust.

barshemm

Umm, slotting axes over other weapon choices does have an impact.

Mace and sword is going to increase the damage of my other dots and direct damage skills. If it's a Stam sorc, they are giving up potential healing and damage by not slotting a dagger. Even other classes get a healing benefit from more crit.

In the heavy meta, bleeds are probably the best choice on average. Against lower resist targets daggers really are probably the best choice because they improve burst and healing, which is probably why crit was the meta for so long before bleeds.

wheem_ESO

barshemm wrote: »

Umm, slotting axes over other weapon choices does have an impact.

Mace and sword is going to increase the damage of my other dots and direct damage skills. If it's a Stam sorc, they are giving up potential healing and damage by not slotting a dagger. Even other classes get a healing benefit from more crit.

In the heavy meta, bleeds are probably the best choice on average. Against lower resist targets daggers really are probably the best choice because they improve burst and healing, which is probably why crit was the meta for so long before bleeds.

What I mean is that the trade off is a total no-brainer. There's technically an opportunity cost in not using any particular weapon type, but it's obvious that axes are vastly superior right now. It's not like you're making a decision between having proc bleeds and a weak Dawnbreaker, vs no procs but far better burst. Like I keep saying, there are reasons that essentially every last Stamina player in Battlegrounds - at least in the upper MMR brackets - is using axes over any other weapon type.

One would think that a "heavy armor meta" would mean maces have a decent place as well, but everyone knows they don't compare to axes.

amir412

Everyone saying that bleeds exists to counter heavy armor bleeds, but guess what, what if top tier heavy armor tank use bleeds himself?
You can literally make a build focused around tankiness and nothing else, slot master axes on 1 bar, and walla, ure good to slay everything in ur path.

Bleeds made to counter perma-block builds, which does not exists anymore (unless ure on troll build and even then.)
Should get a slight nerf, especially to master axes - no other weapon in game gives as much damage as it.
STOP the carry, its gone to absurd lvls now.

paulychan

Ikr? Eeeertime I get stabbed I bleed. Super annoying.

Chilly-McFreeze

amir412 wrote: »

Everyone saying that bleeds exists to counter heavy armor bleeds, but guess what, what if top tier heavy armor tank use bleeds himself?
You can literally make a build focused around tankiness and nothing else, slot master axes on 1 bar, and walla, ure good to slay everything in ur path.

Bleeds made to counter perma-block builds, which does not exists anymore (unless ure on troll build and even then.)
Should get a slight nerf, especially to master axes - no other weapon in game gives as much damage as it.
STOP the carry, its gone to absurd lvls now.

Right. Well, do that without master axes and see how your tanky build works out then. In b4 "but master axes are earned through difficult content".

pieratsos

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

So stop playing in nCP?
Nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, increasing the crit resists/major protection availability is.

But what do I know, I just play ESO casually.

So let me get this straight, the solution to bleeds is to make everyone a tank with a ton of crit resists and major protection?
*Rollseyes*

Minno

pieratsos wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Is it just confusing death recaps or is the Rending bleed effect really this powerful?



By all appearances it seems like a bigger issue than proc sets.

Don't forget rending has an initial tooltip applied. You also took 8 seconds worth of damage, and anyone of those ticks can crit (and for lot, since percentage based mitigation against a single DMG tooltip is not as powerful as a percentage off a giant number).

I'd imagine, the first applied hit was heavily reduced (by armor+mitigation because it's physical DMG not a bleed) but each tick was dealing a 1.30 modifier (1.8 versus 3300 resists) assuming you have no impreg/trans.

What's the highest rending tooltip someone can get? 2.5-3k each second? If so, and it crits, that's 3250 on that tick, then it ignores armor so that gets ignored in the calc. Then if you only had Hardy/thick skin, you are only reducing that tooltip down to 1170. 1170 times 8 = 9360.

If you had major/minor, that crit turns into 807.3 x 8 = 6458.

If you had 4080k crit resist, that 1.3 modifer turns into 1.2, so 2.5k tooltip turns into 3k. 3k turns into 1080 after battlespirit+Hardy+thick skin for a total of 8640 (this is looking closer to the screenshot actually) But if youadd major/minor protection, 745.2 x8= 5961.

Conclusion:
Stop being lazy and add major/minor protection lol

So basically your conclusion isn't even a conclusion, Its just you assuming its possible to hit 4k crit resist in non-cp(surely you can run impreg and have someone provide transmutation, but if that is going to be super effective against any crit, not just bleeds) and also assuming everyone is playing a warden.

You're taking a 8k bleed recap(which is pretty low as far as what I've personally seen) and you're acting like it happened in CP campaign. If this isn't bending the facts, Idk what is. Posts like this one is a good way of making yourself sound ignorant.

So stop playing in nCP?
Nerfing bleeds isn't the answer, increasing the crit resists/major protection availability is.

But what do I know, I just play ESO casually.

So let me get this straight, the solution to bleeds is to make everyone a tank with a ton of crit resists and major protection?
*Rollseyes*

My solution is to not touch them at all because you already have those tools lol.

WreckfulAbandon

You can't build completely tanky then just use bleeds and "slay everything in your path." That's an absolutely absurd statement.

If maces are underperforming then they need to be buffed. There could be a change that lets maces add their pen before other sources to get a higher penetration number out of it.

Before any sources of damage can get nerfed healing has to get nerfed. Befoul is too oppressive against some builds and totally needed against others and that determination is often class based. Healing and befoul both need to be toned down then we can see which sources of damage are really overperforming at that point.

evoniee

bleeds and tempar are over performing.
everyone who said nor are lying and not wanted to make this game balanced

Emma_Overload

The problem with bleed damage ISN'T how it works, when it works or even how much damage it does.

The problem with bleed damage IS that it allows stamina builds to do more real damage per second than magicka builds. Bleed damage makes it mathematically impossible for a magicka build to win against certain stamina builds when all other things are equal. That's not right!

If ZOS won't nerf bleeds because they're "needed" to counter perma-blockers, then how about giving magicka users a similar mechanic so we can fight on even ground?

Waffennacht

Why I have an "issue" with bleeds:

When designed, balanced, etc... they were not as effective against shield users. There was a drawback by using bleeds as a primary focus.

Now that Shields are balanced around resistance; bleeds are equally effective against all builds (tanks, light armor, medium)

I don't see any drawback using Rending/Axe bleed like, WW, etc. The efficiency is too much when compared to other sources of damage (except Oblivion damage - which s mathematically capped unlike bleeds)

There's no reason in diversity when dealing with bleeds

Chilly-McFreeze

Waffennacht wrote: »

Why I have an "issue" with bleeds:

When designed, balanced, etc... they were not as effective against shield users. There was a drawback by using bleeds as a primary focus.

Now that Shields are balanced around resistance; bleeds are equally effective against all builds (tanks, light armor, medium)

I don't see any drawback using Rending/Axe bleed like, WW, etc. The efficiency is too much when compared to other sources of damage (except Oblivion damage - which s mathematically capped unlike bleeds)

There's no reason in diversity when dealing with bleeds

Good point. The shield changes diminished diversity. No I have little to no reason to invest into pen, crit or bleeds at all. I don't like where this is going but whatever, only a few weeks left to go until we can see the latest ideas on how the devs streamline this game into a shooter.

usmcjdking

Can you imagine the outrage if Destructive Reach applied a 10k tooltip dot that ignored resistances, which on every damage instance had a chance to proc another 10k dot?

Minno

usmcjdking wrote: »

Can you imagine the outrage if Destructive Reach applied a 10k tooltip dot that ignored resistances, which on every damage instance had a chance to proc another 10k dot?

Sounds like next DLC's arena weapons lol

heavier