Shadowy Disguise (Cloak) Adjustment

Ragnaroek93

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

People don't realize how much of a nerf the change to shadowy disguise so it didn't make heals crit was.

I know it was unintended and had to be fixed... but it revealed how absolutely awful medium armor nightblade heals are without it.

The only way to heal yourself up reliably is cloak and vigor and rally as medium... that's an awful lot of requirements that many other classes don't require.

Medium armor in general is terrible. Cloak currently feels more like a bandaid fix to make medium armor and bow viable (on one class).

enzoisadog

nerf cloak pl0x

Maryal

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

People don't realize how much of a nerf the change to shadowy disguise so it didn't make heals crit was.

I know it was unintended and had to be fixed... but it revealed how absolutely awful medium armor nightblade heals are without it.

The only way to heal yourself up reliably is cloak and vigor and rally as medium... that's an awful lot of requirements that many other classes don't require.

Medium armor in general is terrible. Cloak currently feels more like a bandaid fix to make medium armor and bow viable (on one class).

If medium armor feels terrible to you, then definitely don't wear it. People should wear the type of armor that enhances their play style. I love medium armor and wouldn't wear anything else.

Rukzadlithau

So we have a player that defends the ability mainly from the standpoint of one spec he plays. Said player even edits videos that supposedly show how „bad“ the skill performs.

The other guy says it‘s „shadow magic“ and because that‘s lore it can‘t be op.

Another one advocates to keep silent on adjusting other skills if people keep silent on op Nightblade skills.

That‘s the baseline of the most vocal players in this thread.

@rfennell_ESO
Even if medium armor was buffed and becomes widely used again in pvp, Shadowy Disguise (the way it performs now) would still make NB stand out as most powerful with it.

Tirps

As someone who mains magicka nightblade, yes I agree that cloak needs adjustment, BUT at this point cloak is almost mandatory for NB to survive because of everyone deals so much damage and nb doesn't really have any other ways to migitate damage (except dodge roll and damage shields that will be crittable in next patch)

Also cloak has already enough counters, basically all aoes break the cloak and detect pots and all skills that pull from stealth make it useless. So cloak is either the best or the worst defense in game.

And anyways, which one is more op? NB that can cloak and get away from 5 people or stamden that can just tank those 5 players and burst them down and just walk away?

Nicko_Lps

Tirps wrote: »

As someone who mains magicka nightblade, yes I agree that cloak needs adjustment, BUT at this point cloak is almost mandatory for NB to survive because of everyone deals so much damage and nb doesn't really have any other ways to migitate damage (except dodge roll and damage shields that will be crittable in next patch)

Also cloak has already enough counters, basically all aoes break the cloak and detect pots and all skills that pull from stealth make it useless. So cloak is either the best or the worst defense in game.

And anyways, which one is more op? NB that can cloak and get away from 5 people or stamden that can just tank those 5 players and burst them down and just walk away?

cloak is not mandatory for stam or mag nightblades to survive.

They have many more defensive's than a cloak.

The class with the less defensives in this game is magsorc, 1shield+streak. Yes its true.

While your magblade has at least 7+ defensives more than sorc you dont like critable shields? Imagine how sorcs like it then.


PS
Im not a fan to any nerfs as long as its not heavy armor ofc.
DBoS tanklings in zerg formation focusing 5 ultis on 1 person have gone too far.

NyassaV

Yeah... No... I'm not even kidding when I say on live dodge roll does a very similar thing (that is being adjusted in this next patch)

NyassaV

Also with the changes to healing ward this patch it is 100% necessary cloak stays the way it is. Previously I could say that some arguments could be made but not after the change to healing ward. Otherwise magblade would be the new magwarden

kaithuzar

Can we get a damage cap on dawnbreaker that is % based on the attackers health pool

Feel free to apply this to subterranean assault as well

IZZEFlameLash

Lol the defense force's wrath is great. DoT shouldn't be suppressed and my NB will still live its long shady life even with that.

Amdar_Godkiller

Xvorg wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

You're either not knowledgable about the game or willfully dishonest.

1.

Maryal wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

Facts

1.

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Nightblade alone can access major and minor ward and resolve as well as evasion by hitting two skills, one of which is their spammable and the other one buffs crit damage passively: mirage https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mirage and surprise attack via the shadow barrier passive https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Shadow+Barrier . Please indicate all the other classes that can do this? Oh, there aren't any...

I also neglected to mention that NBs can activate all these plus major protection using mirage then the Shadow ultimate. So the truth is, I'm understating NB defensive capabilities, not overstating.

2.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending.

In order:

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Consuming+Darkness
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Dark+Cloak
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Soul+Siphon
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Swallow+Soul
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Healthy+Offering

3. How Nightblades can reach the speed cap while crouched:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438935/why-balance-always-fails#latest


So, once again, I'm not the one who is wrong here, @Maryal. You on the other hand are fake news.

OK:

1- Major Ward and Major resolve are useless for DD NB on its spammable and its main defensive tool. NB is all about kill you as fast as possible, so, is the buff useful when the other one already died?
Then, why is that buff there? Because NBs also can tank somewhat decently and the buff was quite useful for NBs healers. Do you think a NB brawler can take advantage of the buff? It can't be casted outside of combat without telling everyone around that you are a NB. Sure, you can use a shade to get the buff, but unless you run in heavy, it last 6 secs, which is not enough to take advantage of it.

2- Have you ever seen a NB using Consuming Darkness in PvP? It's a wonderful skill for tanks. I saw it a couple times 3 or 4 years ago and also used it to catch noobs in resource towers (VoB morph). Not very useful and quite expensive. Soul Siphon is something similar but for healers. If you want to nerf the 2 most useful ultis for NB Tank and Healer, go ahead and let the whole PvE community get another nerf they don't need.
That leaves Swallow as the only "useful" buff for a DD (MO isn't worth to be considered) and you know it will be nerfed the comming patch? Then, what's the complaint? Mageblades get extra healing but stamblades... I still have to find a stamblade that use swallow front bar.

3- Just this:

Now my question: Have you ever played NB?

It is easy to talk about the "strong points" of a class based on what the book says, but it's a different story when you have to play the class. Honestly I invite you to try the class and after you learn how it is played, you will be better positioned to come here and give your insights, otherwise you are just barking at the wrong tree.

1. Are you serious? It gets cast whenever you activate your spammable. That's ridiculously useful and means it is always active.

2. I have but since the other two ultimates are in the running for best ultimate in the game, its understandably not the most frequently used. That being said, I don't always use minor evasion on my wardens, but I still include it when discussing the class as a build option. You are literally at this point arguing that you don't use OP buffs because you have too many OP options.

3. I have two of them that I play quite frequently.

Tonturri

Unless your opponent dies instantly, without any chance to retaliate, Major armor buffs on a spammable are extremely useful.

And if your opponent does die instantly, you're either ganking or they suck. Possibly both - and in which case nothing really matters.

Kadoin

I love using invis pot on NBs to give them a taste of how it feels when cloak forces misses. I always use it right before incap or when I'm about to die, emerge with full health and then cover the area with AoEs and kill them. Never gets old. If NBs don't think its a problem, well you have to use it against them. I happen to love that it forces miss, next patch my shield stacking NB will be even better. Can't wait!

idk

I find it interesting how people call for an nerf (adjustment) yet totally ignore the counters to the said skill. It really says a lot about what is really being requested.

Funny how just this week I came across a NB that kept going into stealth. He that until I ensured he was not returning to stealth and surprisingly he died.

It is amazing what can happen when we use what is already available to us.

leepalmer95

idk wrote: »

I find it interesting how people call for an nerf (adjustment) yet totally ignore the counters to the said skill. It really says a lot about what is really being requested.

Funny how just this week I came across a NB that kept going into stealth. He that until I ensured he was not returning to stealth and surprisingly he died.

It is amazing what can happen when we use what is already available to us.

Apparently slotting a single AOE is far above the skill level of this forum.

I 80% blame this forum for the state of the game now, it's full of people crying for nerfs who have barely played the game.

Mayrael

ManDraKE wrote: »

I love the argument about stamblades spamming cloak with no investment.

Having enought magika sustain to "spam" cloak takes a lot of investment, to have a decent magika sustain (not enought to "spam cloak" but good enought to sustain the use of cloak/fear to acceptable levels in high pressure situations) you at least need 12-15k magika pool and over 800magika recovery on medium (numbers change a little bit if you use heavy). So at minimium, you need 5+1+1, 3 to 5 tristat enchants and 1 magika recovery glyph (or atro mundus), and the only thing the attackers need to do to counter that is to have ONE aoe ability on their bars. And don´t even try to sustain those high cost magika abilities on non-cp withouth proper investment in magika sustain

There are people that plays with minimum magika sustain and invest all in damage, and those builds can't use cloak and fear more than once or twice before running out of magika completly, those kind of builds trend to not perform well on solo scenarios when you need cloak to survive.

This is another example of the "fix incap by putting the stun health threshold" fiasco, people asked that change for years and it didn´t took more than 5 minutes of test to realize it was an stupid change. As usual, most of the people posting in these threads don´t have a clue about nighblades. Having a rank10 AVA nighblade that you created thinking that you where going to be a 1vX god and abondoned one week latter after failing miserably doesn´t make you an authority in nighblade knowledge

So much this I have tried to play magblade 4 times (after playing magsorc and magplar for few years) and always I was quitting the idea, untill few months ago. I forced my self to do it and ironically I finally managed to make it viable when sload broke the cloak and when my main was ridiculously OP (magsorc). This got me tougher. What's the point of my post?

By learning how magblade is being played, I have learned how to kill them. It was never as easy for me, I literally cheer when I see NB because I'm almost sure I got a kill. So before posting any nerf thread, not only nerfNB threads, you all should go and play the toon you want to be nerfed for at least month. Then we can have a constructive discussion, otherwise it's pointless because you have no idea what you're talking about, you have no idea how much effort requires to stay in cloak , maintain shields, heal through bleeds etc. What you can see is your inability to overcome other player, that's all.

ZOS_Mika

We have removed a great deal of baiting and flaming from this thread. Because the discussion has derailed, we will be closing it down.