Shadowy Disguise (Cloak) Adjustment

Savos_Saren

I've said this before on other posts- so I'll say it here:

Cloak shouldn't have a cast time or a cool down. It shouldn't, however, make you invulnerable to previously applied DOTs. The problem with cloak is that the "immunity" duration makes engaging, disengaging, and reengaging a fight too quick for an opponent to fight back.

Currently, my NB can cloak up to an opponent, land a string of attacks, and- if the enemy survives-, I can cast a heal then cloak away (ignore all DOTs the enemy might have tried to apply while healing up), and then reengage the attack very quickly.

There's no decisiveness to it. If my NB were to engage my DK- I can ignore all of my DK's DOTs and keep the pressure on him. I don't have to "turtle up" by disengaging and giving myself ample time to heal up.

DDuke

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I've said this before on other posts- so I'll say it here:

Cloak shouldn't have a cast time or a cool down. It shouldn't, however, make you invulnerable to previously applied DOTs. The problem with cloak is that the "immunity" duration makes engaging, disengaging, and reengaging a fight too quick for an opponent to fight back.

Currently, my NB can cloak up to an opponent, land a string of attacks, and- if the enemy survives-, I can cast a heal then cloak away (ignore all DOTs the enemy might have tried to apply while healing up), and then reengage the attack very quickly.

There's no decisiveness to it. If my NB were to engage my DK- I can ignore all of my DK's DOTs and keep the pressure on him. I don't have to "turtle up" by disengaging and giving myself ample time to heal up.

I understand how players might feel their DoTs are made meaningless (atleast until you reveal the target) and I think it'd be fine if DoTs still kept dealing damage, but in return NBs would need more healing as they aren't built to outheal damage currently like other classes - less healing skills, mitigation/healing passives etc.

On stam sorc for instance you have essentially "two Vigors" with Crit Surge, higher weapon dmg/stamina from passives/bound armaments (and thus bigger heals), incentives for blocking etc.

This is why a stamina sorcerer in medium has a chance to live even after being hit by a DBOS from one of those 7k weapon dmg Fury/7th builds while a stamina NB in medium (especially one that doesn't run 2H & Rally) just crumbles if cloak doesn't mitigate the DBOS DoT.

It's the same for stam DKs, stam Wardens, stamplars - all can mitigate (DoT) damage better than a NB.


So if DoTs were to go through cloak, you'd have to do something like make Dark Cloak heal a base effect of the skill. Otherwise you'd be looking at a class that dies to the first Dawnbreaker to land, or DK/magplar DoTs+a few Skoria procs etc without anything they can do about it (no counterplay whatsoever).


Also I remember when cloak actually used to cleanse debuffs entirely... now that was broken and there wasn't much you could do to make your DoTs stick (compared to current situation where you can atleast keep revealing opponent to deal damage with them).

usmguy1234

High burst and good survivability (both arguable imo) are the reasons sorcs got nerfed to the ground this patch so why do nightblades get to have their cake and eat it too?

Gilvoth

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usmguy1234 wrote: »

High burst and good survivability (both arguable imo) are the reasons sorcs got nerfed to the ground this patch so why do nightblades get to have their cake and eat it too?

we do not have the survival and damage output that sorcerers have.
sorcerers do more damage and they also survive better because of shield stacking as well as not being forced to wear impen, and instead allowed to wear full set of divines. (more damage output)
on both issues, nightblade simply is weaker in comparison to sorcerers.

Tonturri

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

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usmguy1234 wrote: »

High burst and good survivability (both arguable imo) are the reasons sorcs got nerfed to the ground this patch so why do nightblades get to have their cake and eat it too?

we do not have the survival and damage output that sorcerers have.
sorcerers do more damage and they also survive better because of shield stacking as well as not being forced to wear impen, and instead allowed to wear full set of divines. (more damage output)
on both issues, nightblade simply is weaker in comparison to sorcerers.

Aaaand my own contribution. I think DDuke's suggestion is great - revealing by damage and preventing spamming - as long as it only applies to direct aoe attacks, as opposed to ground AoEs. So, Impulse would reveal the NB and prevent them from recloaking for a short bit, but Wall would just reveal and not prevent recasting.

Secondly, perhaps the NB passive that gives increased spell/weapon damage while in stealth can be changed a bit. Have it linger for x seconds after you pop out of stealth, and add in a small healing bonus so that the NB can heal a bit better in stealth and stay offensive a bit longer. Maybe scale the duration of how long the buff lingers with how long the NB spent in stealth so that they're rewarded for using cloak and not being immediately pulled out. Alternatively, have the buff only linger after cloak ends if the NB ends their stealth, but they don't get the buff if someone pulls them out of it somehow.

If we're going to reward people more for utilizing counterplay to cloak, I think that justifies rewarding the nightblade a little bit more when they avoid counterplay.

mojomood

Buzo wrote: »

Since the introduction of the short „force miss“ time frame when the skill is casted, it offers too much.

This force miss can negate damage/control components of skills, that are supposed to work reliably as counter to cloak, entierly.

A good example is Dawnbreaker of Smiting: When DBoS is casted about simoultaneously as cloak it „misses“ - no damage, no cc, just vanished.

While I think this mechanic is absurd and totally op, I‘m aware this was ZOS‘ only option to the uncloaking problematic the skill suffered from when an attack registered right before you went invisible and thus pulled you out of invisibility.

What I propose:

• The skill should surpress any type of regeneration while it‘s active, as it already surpresses dots.
• Nightblades should not be able to retain invisibility while casting any ability during Shadowy Disguise, except Shadowy Disguise.

/e
@DDuke also has a good proposal, ofc this should not be in conjunction with what I suggested:

DDuke wrote: »

I'd welcome a cooldown (similar to interrupting cast/channel, locks you out of using the skill again for a few seconds) on cloak if you get revealed by damage while in cloak.

This would reward skillful play by both the opponent and the NB and casting Cloak at the right time would matter, while cheesy zero dmg cloak spammers with 3k mag regen who abuse the skill to force misses on projectiles and what not wouldn't be a thing anymore.

Stamblades may be able to survive this change because they can roll dodge but magblades wouldn't. Cloak can be used as a magic based roll dodge, but it's a class in light armor with melee range skills and ZERO snare removals available (unless you want to die to fire and DBs instantly). That's like saying a magDK should have a block cooldown or a templar should have a BoL cooldown. Cloak is not cheap. Those 3k regen cloak spammers have no damage. The class burst tool requires 5 light attacks. That's a minimum 5 GCDs to react. 2 classes have skills to 100% negate that burst (warden and DK).

The real issue is a magblade's defense is mobility, which it aweful compared to heavy stam speed pot FM builds. In a 1v1, magblade is super strong because of the pressure and burst which is why no good duelers even slot cloak.

At most, the miss mechanic could be nerfed to only work if your max magicka is your highest resource.

Gilvoth

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Tonturri wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

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usmguy1234 wrote: »

High burst and good survivability (both arguable imo) are the reasons sorcs got nerfed to the ground this patch so why do nightblades get to have their cake and eat it too?

we do not have the survival and damage output that sorcerers have.
sorcerers do more damage and they also survive better because of shield stacking as well as not being forced to wear impen, and instead allowed to wear full set of divines. (more damage output)
on both issues, nightblade simply is weaker in comparison to sorcerers.

Aaaand my own contribution. I think DDuke's suggestion is great - revealing by damage and preventing spamming - as long as it only applies to direct aoe attacks, as opposed to ground AoEs. So, Impulse would reveal the NB and prevent them from recloaking for a short bit, but Wall would just reveal and not prevent recasting.

Secondly, perhaps the NB passive that gives increased spell/weapon damage while in stealth can be changed a bit. Have it linger for x seconds after you pop out of stealth, and add in a small healing bonus so that the NB can heal a bit better in stealth and stay offensive a bit longer. Maybe scale the duration of how long the buff lingers with how long the NB spent in stealth so that they're rewarded for using cloak and not being immediately pulled out. Alternatively, have the buff only linger after cloak ends if the NB ends their stealth, but they don't get the buff if someone pulls them out of it somehow.

If we're going to reward people more for utilizing counterplay to cloak, I think that justifies rewarding the nightblade a little bit more when they avoid counterplay.

here again (in the noted above comment) where we see another comment example of a class that received a nerf, and out of spite and anger against that nerf, they scheme and create ideas and wordings to enhance their request for similar nerfs to happen to nightblade class out of Spite and Anger and Retaliation.
and No desire for balance, no, just a Nerf just out of Retaliation.

so again i want to Elaborate a fact one Fact that took place this patch ...
we helped you and stood with you Guys about the shield nerf, asking to stop the 1 second delay on shields and the devs listened.
in turn, you guys ask for our defense to be ruined.

in addition to that, you Guys keep spamming this forum with nerf requests.

Tonturri

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

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Tonturri wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

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usmguy1234 wrote: »

High burst and good survivability (both arguable imo) are the reasons sorcs got nerfed to the ground this patch so why do nightblades get to have their cake and eat it too?

we do not have the survival and damage output that sorcerers have.
sorcerers do more damage and they also survive better because of shield stacking as well as not being forced to wear impen, and instead allowed to wear full set of divines. (more damage output)
on both issues, nightblade simply is weaker in comparison to sorcerers.

Aaaand my own contribution. I think DDuke's suggestion is great - revealing by damage and preventing spamming - as long as it only applies to direct aoe attacks, as opposed to ground AoEs. So, Impulse would reveal the NB and prevent them from recloaking for a short bit, but Wall would just reveal and not prevent recasting.

Secondly, perhaps the NB passive that gives increased spell/weapon damage while in stealth can be changed a bit. Have it linger for x seconds after you pop out of stealth, and add in a small healing bonus so that the NB can heal a bit better in stealth and stay offensive a bit longer. Maybe scale the duration of how long the buff lingers with how long the NB spent in stealth so that they're rewarded for using cloak and not being immediately pulled out. Alternatively, have the buff only linger after cloak ends if the NB ends their stealth, but they don't get the buff if someone pulls them out of it somehow.

If we're going to reward people more for utilizing counterplay to cloak, I think that justifies rewarding the nightblade a little bit more when they avoid counterplay.

here again (in the noted above comment) where we see another comment example of a class that received a nerf, and out of spite and anger against that nerf, they scheme and create ideas and wordings to enhance their request for similar nerfs to happen to nightblade class out of Spite and Anger and Retaliation.
and No desire for balance, no, just a Nerf just out of Retaliation.

so again i want to Elaborate a fact one Fact that took place this patch ...
we helped you and stood with you Guys about the shield nerf, asking to stop the 1 second delay on shields and the devs listened.
in turn, you guys ask for our defense to be ruined.

in addition to that, you Guys keep spamming this forum with nerf requests.

I've duel mained sorc and NB since 3 months after launch, so no matter what happens I tend to lose.

This isn't some sort of mob cartel deal where we slip you some nightblade buff money under the table, you slip us some sorc buff money under the table while cackling about ZOS and how we're both gonna campaign for buffs to each other's classes.

Nerfs and buffs should happen because there's a well thought out argument and supporting evidence, not because some 'we helped you and stood with you but you ask for nerfs to our thing'. What utter nonsense.

usmguy1234

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

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usmguy1234 wrote: »

High burst and good survivability (both arguable imo) are the reasons sorcs got nerfed to the ground this patch so why do nightblades get to have their cake and eat it too?

we do not have the survival and damage output that sorcerers have.
sorcerers do more damage and they also survive better because of shield stacking as well as not being forced to wear impen, and instead allowed to wear full set of divines. (more damage output)
on both issues, nightblade simply is weaker in comparison to sorcerers.

This may be the case for your personal build but well built nightblades of both types are equally as strong if not stronger than sorcerers.

Savos_Saren

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I've said this before on other posts- so I'll say it here:

Cloak shouldn't have a cast time or a cool down. It shouldn't, however, make you invulnerable to previously applied DOTs. The problem with cloak is that the "immunity" duration makes engaging, disengaging, and reengaging a fight too quick for an opponent to fight back.

Currently, my NB can cloak up to an opponent, land a string of attacks, and- if the enemy survives-, I can cast a heal then cloak away (ignore all DOTs the enemy might have tried to apply while healing up), and then reengage the attack very quickly.

There's no decisiveness to it. If my NB were to engage my DK- I can ignore all of my DK's DOTs and keep the pressure on him. I don't have to "turtle up" by disengaging and giving myself ample time to heal up.

I understand how players might feel their DoTs are made meaningless (atleast until you reveal the target) and I think it'd be fine if DoTs still kept dealing damage, but in return NBs would need more healing as they aren't built to outheal damage currently like other classes - less healing skills, mitigation/healing passives etc.

On stam sorc for instance you have essentially "two Vigors" with Crit Surge, higher weapon dmg/stamina from passives/bound armaments (and thus bigger heals), incentives for blocking etc.

This is why a stamina sorcerer in medium has a chance to live even after being hit by a DBOS from one of those 7k weapon dmg Fury/7th builds while a stamina NB in medium (especially one that doesn't run 2H & Rally) just crumbles if cloak doesn't mitigate the DBOS DoT.

It's the same for stam DKs, stam Wardens, stamplars - all can mitigate (DoT) damage better than a NB.


So if DoTs were to go through cloak, you'd have to do something like make Dark Cloak heal a base effect of the skill. Otherwise you'd be looking at a class that dies to the first Dawnbreaker to land, or DK/magplar DoTs+a few Skoria procs etc without anything they can do about it (no counterplay whatsoever).


Also I remember when cloak actually used to cleanse debuffs entirely... now that was broken and there wasn't much you could do to make your DoTs stick (compared to current situation where you can atleast keep revealing opponent to deal damage with them).

Whether I'm on my MagBlade or my StamBlade- I'll pop Healing Ward and then cloak through the damage or I'll pop Forward Momentum (to gain immunity and a lingering heal) then pop Vigor and cloak. The initial heals allow me to heal up damn near fully while I ignore the DOTs. Then- I can reengage the target (who I've already applied bleeds to) before they can heal up and/or cleanse.

As for the bolded part @DDuke it's needs to be the same as Sorc's shields. Cloak is supposed to be applied before a fight to engage or applied during a fight to disengage in order to get away and heal. Not disengage a fight only to immediately reengage. That's why Sorc shields took a hard nerf. It was too easy to burst and opponent, push your "oh ***" button, and reengage.

Maryal

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

usmcjdking

I would actually prefer if NBs cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage. In addition to that, making the hard cloak counters more reliable (Radiant Magelight is the only non-garbage hard cloak counter) i.e. skills dedicated to breaking cloak.

Evil Hunter: No longer prevents cloaking but provides 15m detection radius for 6 seconds.

Sentry: Increase detection radius to a FIXED 10m (Sentry outright doesn't work vs. Khajiit and Bosmer).

Way of Air: Increase detection radius by 5m (melee radius).

Flare (base skill): Remove travel time.

Lingering Flare: Cast on self as well as location.

Maryal

usmcjdking wrote: »

I would actually prefer if NBs cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage. In addition to that, making the hard cloak counters more reliable (Radiant Magelight is the only non-garbage hard cloak counter) i.e. skills dedicated to breaking cloak.

Evil Hunter: No longer prevents cloaking but provides 15m detection radius for 6 seconds.

Sentry: Increase detection radius to a FIXED 10m (Sentry outright doesn't work vs. Khajiit and Bosmer).

Way of Air: Increase detection radius by 5m (melee radius).

Flare (base skill): Remove travel time.

Lingering Flare: Cast on self as well as location.

If NB cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage, NBs would loose a significant portion of their defense. If cloak no longer suppressed DOTS, we would need to be able to self-heal (cast vigor and/or alliance skill purge) while cloaked without either of them breaking cloak (stealth). Back in the day, cloak used to purge and we used to be able to cast vigor without it breaking cloak (actually without it breaking stealth). Around the time we got IC, purge was removed from cloak and replaced with the DOT suppression (upping the cost of being able to have a purge like effect) ... but we could still cast vigor and we could use the alliance war purge without it breaking stealth. But, later on, things got changed and we were no longer able to cast vigor or purge without it breaking stealth. If the DOT suppression is removed, it has to be replaced with something comparable. Stripping away the NB's defense like this would be like telling DKs they could only use 1 wing ... having only part of a defense is tantamount to having no defense.

Gilvoth

Maryal wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I would actually prefer if NBs cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage. In addition to that, making the hard cloak counters more reliable (Radiant Magelight is the only non-garbage hard cloak counter) i.e. skills dedicated to breaking cloak.

Evil Hunter: No longer prevents cloaking but provides 15m detection radius for 6 seconds.

Sentry: Increase detection radius to a FIXED 10m (Sentry outright doesn't work vs. Khajiit and Bosmer).

Way of Air: Increase detection radius by 5m (melee radius).

Flare (base skill): Remove travel time.

Lingering Flare: Cast on self as well as location.

If NB cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage, NBs would loose a significant portion of their defense. If cloak no longer suppressed DOTS, we would need to be able to self-heal (cast vigor and/or alliance skill purge) while cloaked without either of them breaking cloak (stealth). Back in the day, cloak used to purge and we used to be able to cast vigor without it breaking cloak (actually without it breaking stealth). Around the time we got IC, purge was removed from cloak and replaced with the DOT suppression (upping the cost of being able to have a purge like effect) ... but we could still cast vigor and we could use the alliance war purge without it breaking stealth. But, later on, things got changed and we were no longer able to cast vigor or purge without it breaking stealth. If the DOT suppression is removed, it has to be replaced with something comparable. Stripping away the NB's defense like this would be telling DKs they could only use 1 wing ... having only part of a defense is tantamount to having no defense.

that's exactly what they want.
nightblades completely defenseless and out in the open and killed.
they have been trying and trying for years to get this but recently with the fresh round of nerfs they have increased these type threads and requests.

do not be deceived, they know exactly what they are asking for. and it is always about the death of our defenses as well as the death of our damage output.

DDuke

Savos_Saren wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

I've said this before on other posts- so I'll say it here:

Cloak shouldn't have a cast time or a cool down. It shouldn't, however, make you invulnerable to previously applied DOTs. The problem with cloak is that the "immunity" duration makes engaging, disengaging, and reengaging a fight too quick for an opponent to fight back.

Currently, my NB can cloak up to an opponent, land a string of attacks, and- if the enemy survives-, I can cast a heal then cloak away (ignore all DOTs the enemy might have tried to apply while healing up), and then reengage the attack very quickly.

There's no decisiveness to it. If my NB were to engage my DK- I can ignore all of my DK's DOTs and keep the pressure on him. I don't have to "turtle up" by disengaging and giving myself ample time to heal up.

I understand how players might feel their DoTs are made meaningless (atleast until you reveal the target) and I think it'd be fine if DoTs still kept dealing damage, but in return NBs would need more healing as they aren't built to outheal damage currently like other classes - less healing skills, mitigation/healing passives etc.

On stam sorc for instance you have essentially "two Vigors" with Crit Surge, higher weapon dmg/stamina from passives/bound armaments (and thus bigger heals), incentives for blocking etc.

This is why a stamina sorcerer in medium has a chance to live even after being hit by a DBOS from one of those 7k weapon dmg Fury/7th builds while a stamina NB in medium (especially one that doesn't run 2H & Rally) just crumbles if cloak doesn't mitigate the DBOS DoT.

It's the same for stam DKs, stam Wardens, stamplars - all can mitigate (DoT) damage better than a NB.


So if DoTs were to go through cloak, you'd have to do something like make Dark Cloak heal a base effect of the skill. Otherwise you'd be looking at a class that dies to the first Dawnbreaker to land, or DK/magplar DoTs+a few Skoria procs etc without anything they can do about it (no counterplay whatsoever).


Also I remember when cloak actually used to cleanse debuffs entirely... now that was broken and there wasn't much you could do to make your DoTs stick (compared to current situation where you can atleast keep revealing opponent to deal damage with them).

Whether I'm on my MagBlade or my StamBlade- I'll pop Healing Ward and then cloak through the damage or I'll pop Forward Momentum (to gain immunity and a lingering heal) then pop Vigor and cloak. The initial heals allow me to heal up damn near fully while I ignore the DOTs. Then- I can reengage the target (who I've already applied bleeds to) before they can heal up and/or cleanse.

Good grief... GCD spent on Forward Momentum on a medium stamblade, after having been hit by DBOS? Well done, you just died to Rev Slice or Killer's Blade. Beginner's mistake that you see often in PvP. Know those players who get CC'd by Incap or DBOS, take a while to CC Break and then just stand there for a second (maybe backpedaling and reaching for the block button) and... die? You don't want to be one of those players, lest you want to wind up in someone's 1vX video.

The proper response to burst is CC Break+Dodge Roll & then either sprint out of spin2win range or cloak immediately depending on the situation. Considering you likely have: Master DW Bleed, Twin Blade & Blunt Bleed, DBOS DoT & possibly something like Sheer Venom, Viper, Sload or Toxic Claw etc on you, casting cloak in that situation mitigates more damage than spending 2s+ (since you have to dodge roll cancel as well to not get hit by execute) to cast Vigor & then cloak.

Here's what medium armor Vigor heals for in noCP:


If you think that's enough to outheal bleeds & DBOS DoT, I don't know what to tell you... That's without any defiles even, which are extremely common in PvP.

31.2% crit chance in noCP means 1290 healing/second on average. Take a 8k DBOS to the face & that's 6,2 seconds just to get back to full health when you're taking zero damage (successfully cloaked).

You think it's possible to outheal this:

+750/tick from Master DW, not shown on tooltip

...this:

...and this?


...the DBOS alone is dealing 5466 damage over 5 seconds to someone in medium armor with Major Ward up (1093 damage/second), where as Master DW Rending Slashes would be 1293 damage/second & Twin Blade & Blunt 800 damage/second for a total of 3186 damage/second if you cannot cloak it.

3186-1290=1896

Congratulations, you're dead in 5 seconds if you cannot mitigate even 3 extremely common DoTs (let alone DoTs from multiple people).

And that's assuming none of them crit and the build used here for the DoTs isn't even the typical 7th Fury with 6-7k weapon dmg, but a significantly lower (DoT) damage Automaton+Sword Singer+Balorgh (not active when I acquired these non-CP tooltips) setup with 4050 weapon damage, 4,5k'ish Physical Damage with Automaton.

Savos_Saren wrote: »

As for the bolded part @DDuke it's needs to be the same as Sorc's shields. Cloak is supposed to be applied before a fight to engage or applied during a fight to disengage in order to get away and heal. Not disengage a fight only to immediately reengage. That's why Sorc shields took a hard nerf. It was too easy to burst and opponent, push your "oh ***" button, and reengage.

Always funny when players who don't play a class (or maybe have an alt with 5-10 days /played) presume to be the authority on how they're "supposed to be" played. I'll have you know that in no MMORPG I've played has stealth only been some cowardly escaping tool - it has always had in-combat applications because that's how you separate an assassin character from a regular brawler and cater to that different audience.

Also, interesting contradiction as you say you want cloak to be like dmg shields (effectively a burst heal), but then say it should be used only before/after fight, unlike dmg shields which btw weren't made useless (or even nerfed necessarily) despite the cries of some bad players who instead of coming up with a plan to counter those builds (I have no problem bursting through sorc shields on Live) decided to QQ about them.


Last I checked I was able to burst your main (mDK) on my own magicka DK as well in less than 10 seconds (Summerset PTS, we had several duels if you recall), so I wouldn't complain about stamina NBs bursting opponents and then using defensive skills such as cloak when same can be done in different formats on other classes (e.g. Healing Ward instead of Cloak as survivability tool).

Tonturri

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

Gilvoth

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

being able to do More Damage from stealth is something i believe should be removed from nightblade abilities.

DDuke

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

being able to do More Damage from stealth is something i believe should be removed from nightblade abilities.

The +10% spell/weapon dmg is a pretty insignificant passive anyway for the most part: only applies to the first attack that lands (as you're taken out of stealth by that attack) - the follow up does not gain anything from that passive.

What does this mean in practice? It means the passive might as well read: "when engaging from stealth, your first light attack deals 200 more damage". Wow...


The khajiit/bosmer Stealthy passive suffers from the same problem - the only real use for it & Master Assassin is in max range snipes & dizzying swing or wrecking blow openers where the LA (or heavy attack) doesn't land first.

Tonturri

DDuke wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

being able to do More Damage from stealth is something i believe should be removed from nightblade abilities.

The +10% spell/weapon dmg is a pretty insignificant passive anyway for the most part: only applies to the first attack that lands (as you're taken out of stealth by that attack) - the follow up does not gain anything from that passive.

What does this mean in practice? It means the passive might as well read: "when engaging from stealth, your first light attack deals 200 more damage". Wow...


The khajiit/bosmer Stealthy passive suffers from the same problem - the only real use for it & Master Assassin is in max range snipes & dizzying swing or wrecking blow openers where the LA (or heavy attack) doesn't land first.

This is why I'd like it to linger a bit. It doesn't actually do much to begin with, and if cloak is to get a bit more punishment for failing to use it properly in the form of being unable to cloak immediately after being revealed by an AoE of some sort, then I think it's balanced that the NB also be rewarded appropriately for not being revealed in the form of lingering spell/wpn dmg, and possibly some sorta defensive boost (Idk, someone else can math it out) to compensate for the overall decreased spamming of the skill.

If we're going to punish mindless spam, we also need to reward deliberate, skillful usage (a concept that ZOS has utterly failed to apply to Bolt Escape, for example)

usmcjdking

Maryal wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I would actually prefer if NBs cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage. In addition to that, making the hard cloak counters more reliable (Radiant Magelight is the only non-garbage hard cloak counter) i.e. skills dedicated to breaking cloak.

Evil Hunter: No longer prevents cloaking but provides 15m detection radius for 6 seconds.

Sentry: Increase detection radius to a FIXED 10m (Sentry outright doesn't work vs. Khajiit and Bosmer).

Way of Air: Increase detection radius by 5m (melee radius).

Flare (base skill): Remove travel time.

Lingering Flare: Cast on self as well as location.

If NB cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage, NBs would loose a significant portion of their defense. If cloak no longer suppressed DOTS, we would need to be able to self-heal (cast vigor and/or alliance skill purge) while cloaked without either of them breaking cloak (stealth). Back in the day, cloak used to purge and we used to be able to cast vigor without it breaking cloak (actually without it breaking stealth). Around the time we got IC, purge was removed from cloak and replaced with the DOT suppression (upping the cost of being able to have a purge like effect) ... but we could still cast vigor and we could use the alliance war purge without it breaking stealth. But, later on, things got changed and we were no longer able to cast vigor or purge without it breaking stealth. If the DOT suppression is removed, it has to be replaced with something comparable. Stripping away the NB's defense like this would be like telling DKs they could only use 1 wing ... having only part of a defense is tantamount to having no defense.

Not being targetable is incredibly huge defense as is.

Savos_Saren

DDuke wrote: »

Always funny when players who don't play a class (or maybe have an alt with 5-10 days /played) presume to be the authority on how they're "supposed to be" played. I'll have you know that in no MMORPG I've played has stealth only been some cowardly escaping tool - it has always had in-combat applications because that's how you separate an assassin character from a regular brawler and cater to that different audience.

Also, interesting contradiction as you say you want cloak to be like dmg shields (effectively a burst heal), but then say it should be used only before/after fight, unlike dmg shields which btw weren't made useless (or even nerfed necessarily) despite the cries of some bad players who instead of coming up with a plan to counter those builds (I have no problem bursting through sorc shields on Live) decided to QQ about them.


Last I checked I was able to burst your main (mDK) on my own magicka DK as well in less than 10 seconds (Summerset PTS, we had several duels if you recall), so I wouldn't complain about stamina NBs bursting opponents and then using defensive skills such as cloak when same can be done in different formats on other classes (e.g. Healing Ward instead of Cloak as survivability tool).

1. For the first bolded part: Don't assume.




90 days on each. It may not be as much as some people- but I also have 14 characters. Mag/Stam versions of each class. So, I wouldn't say I'm "an authority"- but I can give an unbiased opinion on what might be OP and what might need to be buffed.

2. For the second bolded part: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/436847/overcome-adapt-and-try-to-be-fluid-current-live-sorc-pvp-build-for-upcoming-shield-changes/p1 It may not have been the best build. But I immediately tried to give people ideas for overcoming the shield nerf.

3. And for the third bolded part: You know damn well that when we dueled- I told you that I run AvA builds- not duelist builds. Also- correct me if I'm wrong- but you were testing the original Mantle of Siroria set (the broken one that caused a ring of fire underneath your enemy)- and you even remarked that it was broken AF.

Don't get me wrong- I want my NB to succeed... but I can also acknowledge that cloak is overpowered. I also know that you main a StamBlade and run on a MagDK too.

Maryal

usmcjdking wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

I would actually prefer if NBs cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage. In addition to that, making the hard cloak counters more reliable (Radiant Magelight is the only non-garbage hard cloak counter) i.e. skills dedicated to breaking cloak.

Evil Hunter: No longer prevents cloaking but provides 15m detection radius for 6 seconds.

Sentry: Increase detection radius to a FIXED 10m (Sentry outright doesn't work vs. Khajiit and Bosmer).

Way of Air: Increase detection radius by 5m (melee radius).

Flare (base skill): Remove travel time.

Lingering Flare: Cast on self as well as location.

If NB cloak no longer suppressed damage, but no longer broke on damage, NBs would loose a significant portion of their defense. If cloak no longer suppressed DOTS, we would need to be able to self-heal (cast vigor and/or alliance skill purge) while cloaked without either of them breaking cloak (stealth). Back in the day, cloak used to purge and we used to be able to cast vigor without it breaking cloak (actually without it breaking stealth). Around the time we got IC, purge was removed from cloak and replaced with the DOT suppression (upping the cost of being able to have a purge like effect) ... but we could still cast vigor and we could use the alliance war purge without it breaking stealth. But, later on, things got changed and we were no longer able to cast vigor or purge without it breaking stealth. If the DOT suppression is removed, it has to be replaced with something comparable. Stripping away the NB's defense like this would be like telling DKs they could only use 1 wing ... having only part of a defense is tantamount to having no defense.

Not being targetable is incredibly huge defense as is.

It's still only half of a defense.

Although not directed specifically at you @usmcjdking, it boggles my mind as to how many people don't use disclosure poisons ... they complain of NBs cloaking mid battle ... use disclosure poisons! While you're at it, pop a disclosure pot if you are fighting a NB. Deadly cloak or even quick cloak can be used offensively as well as defensively against invisible players. Heck, use all three! There are many effective ways to deal with cloaking, sneaking, or invisible players ... and I'm not talking about the 'usual list' ... it helps to think outside-the-box AND be knowledgeable about the game.

Maryal

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

Pop an invisibility pot to get it the Master Assassin passive ... don't need cloak for that. Be in stealth (crouched and sneak eye closed) to trigger the passive ... don't need cloak for that. Justifying a nerf to Cloak by associating it with a class passive that can easily be triggered without using cloak isn't right.

All classes have one or more (usually more) passives that up their damage for doing something related to class abilities. Class passives synergize with class abilities on purpose. That's why it's preferable to use as many class abilities as possible. Heck, even guild skills have passives that reward extra damage for using/slotting a guild skill. Max out the Mages guild passive Might of the Guild and use inner light (or the other morph) 5 seconds before attacking to up your damage by 20%. Psijic has the passive called Spell Orbs that generating damage dealing orbs just for continued use of any type skill in that skill line; Fighters Guild has the passive called Skilled Tracker that increases damage done by Fighters Guild skills by 20% against undead, daedra and WW ... AND it has the Slayer Passive which ups your damage by 3% for every fighters guild skill slotted (you don't have to actually use the fighter guild skill to get the slayer damage boost).

Tonturri

Maryal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

Pop an invisibility pot to get it the Master Assassin passive ... don't need cloak for that. Be in stealth (crouched and sneak eye closed) to trigger the passive ... don't need cloak for that. Justifying a nerf to Cloak by associating it with a class passive that can easily be triggered without using cloak isn't right.

All classes have one or more (usually more) passives that up their damage for doing something related to class abilities. Class passives synergize with class abilities on purpose. That's why it's preferable to use as many class abilities as possible. Heck, even guild skills have passives that reward extra damage for using/slotting a guild skill. Max out the Mages guild passive Might of the Guild and use inner light (or the other morph) 5 seconds before attacking to up your damage by 20%. Psijic has the passive called Spell Orbs that generating damage dealing orbs just for continued use of any type skill in that skill line; Fighters Guild has the passive called Skilled Tracker that increases damage done by Fighters Guild skills by 20% against undead, daedra and WW ... AND it has the Slayer Passive which ups your damage by 3% for every fighters guild skill slotted (you don't have to actually use the fighter guild skill to get the slayer damage boost).

There's a large opportunity cost to using your potion for invis, and stealthing before combat is a one time thing . DDuke has already explained how the passive isn't really 'all that' before combat. Compared to WITH cloak, heck no, you're 100% wrong - there's no way you will EVER get even close to the use out of the passive that a cloak user will if you're comparing it to before combat and a 45 sec CD potion. And I'm not associating it with a class passive, I'm suggesting not-insignificant buffs to the passive in order to encourage more spread out use of cloak IN combat so that proper use of cloak will give NBs the extra boost they need if they do it right.

Maryal

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

Pop an invisibility pot to get it the Master Assassin passive ... don't need cloak for that. Be in stealth (crouched and sneak eye closed) to trigger the passive ... don't need cloak for that. Justifying a nerf to Cloak by associating it with a class passive that can easily be triggered without using cloak isn't right.

All classes have one or more (usually more) passives that up their damage for doing something related to class abilities. Class passives synergize with class abilities on purpose. That's why it's preferable to use as many class abilities as possible. Heck, even guild skills have passives that reward extra damage for using/slotting a guild skill. Max out the Mages guild passive Might of the Guild and use inner light (or the other morph) 5 seconds before attacking to up your damage by 20%. Psijic has the passive called Spell Orbs that generating damage dealing orbs just for continued use of any type skill in that skill line; Fighters Guild has the passive called Skilled Tracker that increases damage done by Fighters Guild skills by 20% against undead, daedra and WW ... AND it has the Slayer Passive which ups your damage by 3% for every fighters guild skill slotted (you don't have to actually use the fighter guild skill to get the slayer damage boost).

There's a large opportunity cost to using your potion for invis, and stealthing before combat is a one time thing . DDuke has already explained how the passive isn't really 'all that' before combat. Compared to WITH cloak, heck no, you're 100% wrong - there's no way you will EVER get even close to the use out of the passive that a cloak user will if you're comparing it to before combat and a 45 sec CD potion. And I'm not associating it with a class passive, I'm suggesting not-insignificant buffs to the passive in order to encourage more spread out use of cloak IN combat so that proper use of cloak will give NBs the extra boost they need if they do it right.

It also triggers simply by being in sneak mode (crouched sneak eye closed). Getting the assassin passive to proc is a one time thing in that it only benefits your first attack from sneak or invisibility. It's a craaapppee passive anyway. A person would be better off going with the mages guild passive 'might of the guild' for twice the passive damage increase (20%) and slotting a mages guild skill to proc it (cast mage light, or better yet, cast the skill that lays down a rune which causes your enemy to pop into the air) ... the best thing is that you don't need to be in stealth or invisibility to use it (you can use in combat)! With regard to the invis pot cool down -- there is a jewelry enchantment that reduces the cool down time on potions as well as a jewelry trait that boosts your jewelry enchantment.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm glad you are thinking of ways to make things different. You need to look at more than what that passive offers ... you also have to look at other available alternatives a NB as to boost their damage. If an alternative is better that what is suggested, then the suggested change provides no incentive.

Lastly, cloak is the NBs defense, but as with any class's defense, it can also be used offensively. When cloak is used offensively, it represents a particular play style. Not all NBs play the class the same way and many don't even use cloak for offensive purposes. Incentivizing a particular offensive playstyle involving cloak (at the expense of it's current defensive function) ends up hurting NBs who ONLY use cloak defensively -- it takes away from them without giving anything of equal value in return (think Fullmetal Alchemist .. the law of equivalent exchange).

Tonturri

Maryal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

Pop an invisibility pot to get it the Master Assassin passive ... don't need cloak for that. Be in stealth (crouched and sneak eye closed) to trigger the passive ... don't need cloak for that. Justifying a nerf to Cloak by associating it with a class passive that can easily be triggered without using cloak isn't right.

All classes have one or more (usually more) passives that up their damage for doing something related to class abilities. Class passives synergize with class abilities on purpose. That's why it's preferable to use as many class abilities as possible. Heck, even guild skills have passives that reward extra damage for using/slotting a guild skill. Max out the Mages guild passive Might of the Guild and use inner light (or the other morph) 5 seconds before attacking to up your damage by 20%. Psijic has the passive called Spell Orbs that generating damage dealing orbs just for continued use of any type skill in that skill line; Fighters Guild has the passive called Skilled Tracker that increases damage done by Fighters Guild skills by 20% against undead, daedra and WW ... AND it has the Slayer Passive which ups your damage by 3% for every fighters guild skill slotted (you don't have to actually use the fighter guild skill to get the slayer damage boost).

There's a large opportunity cost to using your potion for invis, and stealthing before combat is a one time thing . DDuke has already explained how the passive isn't really 'all that' before combat. Compared to WITH cloak, heck no, you're 100% wrong - there's no way you will EVER get even close to the use out of the passive that a cloak user will if you're comparing it to before combat and a 45 sec CD potion. And I'm not associating it with a class passive, I'm suggesting not-insignificant buffs to the passive in order to encourage more spread out use of cloak IN combat so that proper use of cloak will give NBs the extra boost they need if they do it right.

It also triggers simply by being in sneak mode (crouched sneak eye closed). Getting the assassin passive to proc is a one time thing in that it only benefits your first attack from sneak or invisibility. It's a craaapppee passive anyway. A person would be better off going with the mages guild passive 'might of the guild' for twice the passive damage increase (20%) and slotting a mages guild skill to proc it (cast mage light, or better yet, cast the skill that lays down a rune which causes your enemy to pop into the air) ... the best thing is that you don't need to be in stealth or invisibility to use it (you can use in combat)! With regard to the invis pot cool down -- there is a jewelry enchantment that reduces the cool down time on potions as well as a jewelry trait that boosts your jewelry enchantment.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm glad you are thinking of ways to make things different. You need to look at more than what that passive offers ... you also have to look at other available alternatives a NB as to boost their damage. If an alternative is better that what is suggested, then the suggested change provides no incentive.

I'm not entirely certain what you're getting at here. It's a bad passive, that's the point. I've been posting about trying to get it buffed to the point where the nerf to cloak is compensated for (other passives could use similar attention, obviously, but baby steps). The ultimate goal is to help cloak with its massive variance in effectiveness - where sometimes it's amazing, sometimes it's just godawful, and it can be just a pain in the butt if someone is stacking magicka regen and spamming it no matter how many times you break their cloak - making it less strong in some areas, stronger in others, resulting in a more balanced, consistent skill.

I'm not saying nerf cloak because the passive exists in its current incarnation.

Nicko_Lps

KingJ wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

I love it how people that whine for sorc nerfs in PTS + live sorc forum threats defend their nightblade skills like arena gladiators in ancient Rome

So you mean like all the Magsorc mains who on the forums daily you called the original Rune cage change Problematic and shouldn't have went live which caused the nerf in the first place.

@Feanor how is the rune cage change they made this patch does.I'm sure no matter what they do doesn't offset the shield change but is it at least better now.

I never used RC brother, RC makes a sorc use 6 abilities and perfectly line them up to kill a decent player. Many smallscalers that run besides templars tanks and rollerblades used it but as i never group i could never afford to NEED to land down 6 perfectly timed abilities to score a kill.

To the RC+comeet combo only dummies die tbh, as far as i recall tho i died to that kind magsorc burst from comet just once and thats because my foodbuff run out + i was repairing.

Maryal

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Tonturri

You do realize that the increased damage from cloak is the crit. NBs can build for crit, just like any one else can, they don't need cloak for the crit. They could remove crit from cloak for all I care. If a NB also happens to be in stealth when cloaked, they will get a stealth damage bonus, but that bonus is available to anyone hitting from stealth.

A person dosen't need cloak to sneak up on you and attack you to get the stealth damage bonus ... anyone can use an invis. pot and sneak up to you in stealth to attack (proximity won't reveal them). If they build for crit, well, they could do burst damage on par with that of a cloaked/stealthed NB. And, if they timed their invis. pot just right, they could also return to invisibility a second or two after their burst attack if it didn't result in death. Non-NBs are doing this now, you all just don't realize it.

As far as preventing a NB (or anyone else) from hiding via invisibility after being attacked, there are poisons that do this. I use them and they work really well.

As far as adding 'a little heal' ummm, a 'little' heal would be worthless. Too many DOTs deal significant damage per tick and those ticks typically last 6 seconds. Cloak IS the NBs defense. Either cloak gives a huge burst heal and a huge HOT, or NBs would have to have purge returned to cloak with a HOT ... if, as suggested, there were a mechanism preventing them from immediately returning to cloak's invisibility, they should still be able to cast the skill for a purge AND a decent HOT.

If there is an issue with NBs in heavy armor cloaking repeatedly, or light armor magica users endlessly spamming cloak, one solution would be to tie the duration of cloak to the number of medium armor pieces worn. In other words, base cloak would last for 2 seconds and increase by .14 seconds for each piece of medium armor worn. Light armor magblades have much larger magica pools -- for them cloaking every 2 seconds (2.28 seconds if wearing 5/2) still provides defense, while at the same time reduces the number of times they could spam cloak to a more reasonable amount (still more than medium armor, but not as much as they are now). Likewise, heavy armor builds are more tanky and have less of a defensive need to repeatedly spam cloak, so the number of times they could spam it would likely be 2 or 3x.

Last, but not least is the other problem with the suggested inability to immediately re-cloak once brought out (via damage) -- it really interferes with pve RPing. You guys may not enjoy that aspect of the game, but there are many players who do and the suggestion really messes that up.

Pardon, I was talking about the Master Assassin passive for 10% spell/wpn dmg while sneaking or invis and making it a tad more interactive.

Pop an invisibility pot to get it the Master Assassin passive ... don't need cloak for that. Be in stealth (crouched and sneak eye closed) to trigger the passive ... don't need cloak for that. Justifying a nerf to Cloak by associating it with a class passive that can easily be triggered without using cloak isn't right.

All classes have one or more (usually more) passives that up their damage for doing something related to class abilities. Class passives synergize with class abilities on purpose. That's why it's preferable to use as many class abilities as possible. Heck, even guild skills have passives that reward extra damage for using/slotting a guild skill. Max out the Mages guild passive Might of the Guild and use inner light (or the other morph) 5 seconds before attacking to up your damage by 20%. Psijic has the passive called Spell Orbs that generating damage dealing orbs just for continued use of any type skill in that skill line; Fighters Guild has the passive called Skilled Tracker that increases damage done by Fighters Guild skills by 20% against undead, daedra and WW ... AND it has the Slayer Passive which ups your damage by 3% for every fighters guild skill slotted (you don't have to actually use the fighter guild skill to get the slayer damage boost).

There's a large opportunity cost to using your potion for invis, and stealthing before combat is a one time thing . DDuke has already explained how the passive isn't really 'all that' before combat. Compared to WITH cloak, heck no, you're 100% wrong - there's no way you will EVER get even close to the use out of the passive that a cloak user will if you're comparing it to before combat and a 45 sec CD potion. And I'm not associating it with a class passive, I'm suggesting not-insignificant buffs to the passive in order to encourage more spread out use of cloak IN combat so that proper use of cloak will give NBs the extra boost they need if they do it right.

It also triggers simply by being in sneak mode (crouched sneak eye closed). Getting the assassin passive to proc is a one time thing in that it only benefits your first attack from sneak or invisibility. It's a craaapppee passive anyway. A person would be better off going with the mages guild passive 'might of the guild' for twice the passive damage increase (20%) and slotting a mages guild skill to proc it (cast mage light, or better yet, cast the skill that lays down a rune which causes your enemy to pop into the air) ... the best thing is that you don't need to be in stealth or invisibility to use it (you can use in combat)! With regard to the invis pot cool down -- there is a jewelry enchantment that reduces the cool down time on potions as well as a jewelry trait that boosts your jewelry enchantment.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm glad you are thinking of ways to make things different. You need to look at more than what that passive offers ... you also have to look at other available alternatives a NB as to boost their damage. If an alternative is better that what is suggested, then the suggested change provides no incentive.

I'm not entirely certain what you're getting at here. It's a bad passive, that's the point. I've been posting about trying to get it buffed to the point where the nerf to cloak is compensated for (other passives could use similar attention, obviously, but baby steps). The ultimate goal is to help cloak with its massive variance in effectiveness - where sometimes it's amazing, sometimes it's just godawful, and it can be just a pain in the butt if someone is stacking magicka regen and spamming it no matter how many times you break their cloak - making it less strong in some areas, stronger in others, resulting in a more balanced, consistent skill.

I'm not saying nerf cloak because the passive exists in its current incarnation.

Wasn't there some change that put an icon over someone's head if they were using a detection skill or ability? If so, I've never seen it.

Cloak wouldn't have a massive variance in effectiveness if detection via skills/abilities were telegraphed ... like those mages in Hews Bane with that blue circle. Players in stealth would avoid the blue circles, which ultimately stabilizes the effectiveness of their stealth while at the same time the deterrent effect due to the visual projection ends up protecting players in the detection radius. As far as cloak spammers during battle, again, the person fighting the cloak spammer should use poison of detection along with wearing blade cloak -- it reduces the effectiveness of cloaking during melee battle without totally locking NBs out of the benefit of using cloak. Also, reducing the base duration of cloak to 2 seconds and tying increased duration to each piece of medium armor worn (.14 second increase for each medium piece worn) ends up increasing the cost of spamming cloak for magblades (generally in light armor with a high magica pool), which, in turn, reduces the number of times they can spam cloak.

I'm a NB and I get PO'ed when I am ganked from stealth. My 'go to' is casting fear runes (defensively as well as offensively) and using detection pots and detection poisons. People who aren't NBs can accomplish much of the same thing by substituting volcanic rune for the fear rune. Add deadly cloak for added protection.

Feanor

@KingJ

The Murkmire iteration of RC is completely useless. Granted, it’s undodgeable again for the initial hit. Due to the delay and the added visual anyone who isn’t out of stamina and not a complete potato will avoid the stun 100% of the time though. And that for skill costing 3k+ Magicka.

rfennell_ESO

People don't realize how much of a nerf the change to shadowy disguise so it didn't make heals crit was.

I know it was unintended and had to be fixed... but it revealed how absolutely awful medium armor nightblade heals are without it.

The only way to heal yourself up reliably is cloak and vigor and rally as medium... that's an awful lot of requirements that many other classes don't require.