Shadowy Disguise (Cloak) Adjustment

DDuke

ku5h wrote: »

Why not just give it a Streak treatment?! StamNBs wont be able to abuse it with little to none investment to mag and magBlades will be able to keep it up, but will drain as fast as Sorcs do when spaming.
I think it would be fair, even though when next patch hits I'll probably play some form of NB, if i'll play at all.

1. Cloak already has plenty of counters that make blanket nerfs to the skill (no matter how it's used) unnecessary.
2. Stamblades don't abuse it with little to none investment. I'll refer you to this clip where my cloak gets countered and practically does nothing except waste my magicka (and health, because I could've been dodging or spamming more Vigors instead): https://youtu.be/fIkz-AOoVHA?t=25s. You can see I get 3 cloaks off before I'm completely out of magicka. That's with the base magicka regen.
   
   Let's say you want 4 cloaks in a row on a stamblade. Assuming you get one magicka regen tick (611 base) during each 3705 cost cloak, you consume 9282 magicka & would thus need either 12 987 magicka pool (full tri-stat gear=10 557 in noCP) or additional 617 magicka regen on top of the base 611 mag regen (i.e. a total of 1228 magicka regen) to make up for the cost of that 4th cloak during the previous three. Needless to say, getting 611 magicka regen is a huge investment for a stamina build and that doesn't even let you "permacloak", that just lets you cast it one more time in a row.
   
   In order to "permacloak" on a stamina NB (i.e. regain the magicka you spent while in cloak) you would need around 2482 magicka regen, which while possible, completely kills off your damage and turns you into a bad troll build that dies to first person who spin2wins or another counter (as casting cloak every second would require 7410 magicka regen in such scenario, and you'd still take damage from the AoEs).
   
3. Streak always does something when you use the skill. I.e. you always (bugs aside) get the benefit of repositioning your character. Cloak many times does nothing when cast as you instantly get hit by AoE.
   
4. You would reward toxic zergs chasing solo players with such changes (who are already hit by the mobility nerfs next patch), as those are the scenarios where multiple cloaks are usually cast in a row in order to drop combat & get back into sneak rather than get 20v1'd (not everyone plays a heavy armor 7th Fury Troll King build that just tanks them all, not yet anyhow).
   
5. Medium armor, non-2H builds rely on it as much as sorcs rely on shields or healers rely on burst heals. I.e. when your healing is limited to an average 1,4k'ish/second (stacking weapon dmg/stamina to buff the tooltip) with Vigor, you need ways to survive getting bursted. Let's say you're hit by DBOS (in medium armor): if you just stand there and block because you can't cast cloak again due to some stacking cost modifier, you're just dead to executes and literally anything. If you dodge, you still die to jabs spam, jbeam, Fury explosion, Skoria proc etc or you know, just the DBOS DoT tick (which alone outdamages Vigor) & bleeds, Poison Injection etc.
   
6. The most broken meta stamblade builds don't even run cloak. It doesn't synergize with 7th Fury & Troll King as you want to be taking damage with those sets. Not that you'd even need to cast it since you can tank anything in that gear and still deal the same damage as builds that have to work their *** off just to survive. It is already not a good thing if you're forced to spam cloaks in a fight - it means you're taking pressure from opponent or fear getting one shot and "spamming" those cloaks (again, already established it's not possible to use them much on a stamina build) means you're spending global cooldowns not dealing damage to your opponent and letting them recover or set up defenses (or you know, just reveal you with AoE or det pot/poison to finish you off).

These are all reasons why a "stacking cost modifier" would completely kill off medium stamblades (especially non-meta ones that don't have a burst heal in Rally, though tbh these days all medium stamblades could be considered non-meta) and would cause a mass exodus to the actually problematic, overperforming heavy armor setups, which already only stand to get stronger next patch.


That said, I've been on the other end of the spectrum as well, playing with builds that have limited (or not strong enough) counters to Cloak and as one of the few who still main a medium stamblade I'd welcome a cooldown (similar to interrupting cast/channel, locks you out of using the skill again for a few seconds) on cloak if you get revealed by damage while in cloak.

This would reward skillful play by both the opponent and the NB and casting Cloak at the right time would matter, while cheesy zero dmg cloak spammers with 3k mag regen who abuse the skill to force misses on projectiles and what not wouldn't be a thing anymore.

A practical scenario with such change in place: imagine you're playing a magicka DK and you have your Volatile to break someone out of cloak, right? Well, no longer would one have to spam that skill with low impact damage and high cost to counter cloak, usually running out of magicka before the NB does.

Same goes for say, hitting a NB with Shalks on stamina Warden. You'd now have few seconds where they can't cloak again and that'd be the burst window.


I.e. skillful play should be rewarded and very often casting cloak multiple times in a row while dodging AoEs is that. Casting cloak while getting hit by those AoEs? Not so much, and I'd also like to see that punished more.

olsborg

Buff dark cloak and make it more attractive over cowardly disguise:)

Feanor

It’s funny. The very first class rep meeting was about Cloak bring either OP or useless. Half a year later defense of other classes see numerous nerfs. Cloak stays as is.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

It’s funny. The very first class rep meeting was about Cloak bring either OP or useless. Half a year later defense of other classes see numerous nerfs. Cloak stays as is.

Probably because it's still useless a lot of the time, where as defensive mechanics such as shields, streak etc are always useful and do what you want them to do. Nothing has changed in that regard apart from the Piercing Mark nerf, but then on the other end of the spectrum mobility changes make it more difficult to avoid the cloak breaking PBAoEs.


Also, another defense that hasn't been addressed at all are the mitigation+healing based builds that have been the meta top dogs for years now (ok, magicka NBs actually did get a nerf in this department as they lost Minor Vitality from Swallow Soul). They state that they want to make light and medium more worth using, yet heavy has never seemed more appealing than after this patch...

Feanor

@DDuke

Cloak is still extremely potent with the current version of Shadow Image. A PBAoE doesn’t help in that regard - only detect pots do now.

I agree on the failure to balance armor weights though. Heavy looks indeed best for most classes in the upcoming patch.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Cloak is still extremely potent with the current version of Shadow Image. A PBAoE doesn’t help in that regard - only detect pots do now.

I agree on the failure to balance armor weights though. Heavy looks indeed best for most classes in the upcoming patch.

Shadow Image is strong in many situations, but it is far from factual to assume it is always there for a NB to fall back to. Many times you're simply out of its range or the duration runs out before you find a good time to use it. Imagine for example that you're just about to get a kill on someone, but Shadow Image has 2 seconds left on timer so you can't both reposition (assuming there's other 3-4 people chasing you) and get a kill.

Most of the time however it's just too tedious to drop one down for every fight (finding some LOS to hide behind to prevent getting instantly focused as it takes you out of stealth when cast).

That's NB life in a nutshell when you're using Shadow Image (which I personally hate btw & unslot whenever possible) and it's a strong skill with or without cloak, especially in those cheesy tower farms people like to do.

If it's Shadow Image that's causing problems for people to deal with NBs, then maybe that should be the target of "nerf this" posts rather than cloak.

kaithuzar

BalticBlues wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Is cloak OP in pvp? No.

LOL. Cloak is the most OP skill of the entire game.
And everybody knows this.
Therefore about 60-80% of PvP consists of NB

In PvE, with Cloak you bypass almost all gameplay mechanisms in Solo play.
In PvP, with Cloak you almost play in god-mode, because
- you decide where to start a fight (cloak until you get there)
- you decide when to start a fight (cloak until it is the right time)
- you decide who will be attacked (cloak until your victim is weak)
- you decide when to end a fight (cloak when you screw even godmode up)

Playing my NB is easy-mode, especially in Imperial Sewers. The only worthy foes are Sorcs because of their shields, mobility and versatility. But now that Sorcs are nerfed into the ground, the last worthy foes also will be gone...

Because I’m really tired of reading this & not hearing “validity & reason for comparison”. So I’m going to say it’s my opinion that the statement:
“Cloak is the most OP skill of the entire game.
And everybody knows this.”

Is a flat out lie.
My argument is that there are tons of nightblades because there are tons of role playing ninjas, NOT because they are being successful fighting the tanks of Cyrodiil.
By my stance EVERYONE loves to fight a nb because it’s like free AP for them.

Tanks of Cyrodiil:
Sorc - shield spamming tank
Templar - healbot tank
Dk - original tank
Warden - Dps tank w/trees “Superman”


My answers marked below yours:

In PvP, with Cloak you almost play in god-mode, because
- you decide where to start a fight (cloak until you get there)
Not true, The random zerg spamming steel tornado, other AOE’s, or detection potions determines when the fight starts.
It’s pretty difficult to start a fight when you’re constantly running away.

- you decide when to start a fight (cloak until it is the right time)
See my above answer.

- you decide who will be attacked (cloak until your victim is weak)
Is not having cloak somehow taking away your ability to determine who you want to attack???
I’m pretty sure the game doesn’t take away free will...

- you decide when to end a fight (cloak when you screw even godmode up)
boo hoo, my free ap escaped!
So if they take away cloak are you going to complain about shadow image next?
My free ap still escaped!
If you are going to complain about how it’s so powerful to disappear, then you’re going to tell me how you’re using invisibility potions, you are using those right? because if I find tripots on your bar, I’m going to smack you for being an idiot.

Rukzadlithau

DDuke wrote: »

I'd welcome a cooldown (similar to interrupting cast/channel, locks you out of using the skill again for a few seconds) on cloak if you get revealed by damage while in cloak.

This would reward skillful play by both the opponent and the NB and casting Cloak at the right time would matter, while cheesy zero dmg cloak spammers with 3k mag regen who abuse the skill to force misses on projectiles and what not wouldn't be a thing anymore.

@DDuke

Totally agree, I proposed kind of the same idea for magicka shields after they are cast to keep their instant protection and avoid absurd recasts/stacking.

But ZOS proved with 4.2.2 that such solutions are not in their realm of logic and thus takes other approaches to how they want things adjusted.

What I proposed takes into consideration of how cloak works right now and how ZOS usually adjusts things.

But yeah, if we could have logical, playerskill rewarding solutions I totally agree your proposal is better than mine. But reality is different and we‘re 2 patch cycles away from what will be set in stone for Murkmire.

Zelos

Yep let's do this change totally so we force all stamblades into heavy impreg tk so that we get any kind of healing. Then you can complain about that too.

Maryal

Cloak is the NB's defensive pairing skill - a skill paired with a self healing skill that allows you to be defensive. Cloak allows your healing to do it's thing - it suppresses DOT ticks for 2.75 seconds per cast and being invisible prevents you from being re-targeted for 2.75 seconds. In order to effectively suppress a DOT, cloak must be spammed 2-3 times in a row. It was intentionally created this way. By having to spam cloak to suppress the DOT, the devs, in essence, upped the cost of this 'purge-like' effect (cloak used to have an actual purge ... you only had to cast it 1x for the purge). For most stamblades, cloaking 2-3 times in a row pretty much eats up your entire magica pool.

Stamblades building for a bigger magica pool loose out on damage. You could build this way to be an annoyance, a 'distraction' as it were, and I have no doubt that there are NBs who do just that - but they are relatively few. Most NBs who stealth don't build to be 'an annoyance'. The bulk of the players who do build for the annoyance factor (to be a distraction) are generally tank builds with very high health, are extremely difficult to kill, and are very visible (i.e., not hidden).

It's easy to forget, or overlook the fact that each class is set up with their own class-specific defensive-pairing abilities. To have a decent defense you need, at a minimum, the ability to self heal and an ability that can help your self-heal to do its thing. DKs have wings, Sorcs have shields and their zoom-zoom ability, Warden has a spammable purge, spammable shield (along with having the best HOTs in the game), Templars have their awesome purge ability and NBs have cloak.

Any defensive ability is equally capable of being used offensively -- there's no way of getting around that. This is true of every class.

Cloak is not OP ... it is not over performing in the least. It may be annoying, extremely frustrating, but it's not OP.

There are many counters to cloak - the problem is there is also a lot of misinformation and confusion regarding the difference between cloak, sneak, and invisibility (there is also vampire's mist, but I'm not addressing that here). People use these terms interchangeable as if they were all the same thing, but they are not. An effective counter to one doesn't necessarily mean it will be effective against all of them. It's important to understand the difference between these and also to carefully read the description of the counter you are using (skill, ability, potion, or equipment).

Another important thing to note is that players who 'hide' don't necessarily accomplish this through one single means. Methods of hiding include sneak (crouching / sneak eye closed), invs. pots, and/or cloak. A person 'hiding' could use one or any combination of these methods. To reveal hidden enemies in your proximity, you need use the right type of detection method and the 'right one' depends on how the enemy is hidden.

People get frustrated when they don't 'catch' hidden enemies by spamming their detection skill. Detection skills have a dual effect - they reveal hidden enemies in close proximity to the 'spammer' AND they deter enemies in hiding from entering the area being spammed. The deterrent effect is just, if not more effective in this regard.

Rukzadlithau

@Maryal

Dude you already tried to defend the lazy coding of skills with „Elder Scrolls lore“. Now you‘re trying it with pseudo factuality and a text wall of unrelated stuff.

You‘re already nominated for the Golden Fedora. You can stop trying now.

killahsin

zenimax please ban me from the forums so i can stop reading all this crybaby nerf everything crap going on on these forums. You are all a bunch of whining children trying to destroy everything good about this game. Every single one of you are petulant children who should be grounded and have their internet access revoked. These forums are absolutely full of this disenfranchised nonsense. This is what you have done with all this nerfing garbage zenimax. Learn to balance classes by offering counter-play because your nerf everything approach has turned these forums into an absolute cess pool of atrocious behavior and constant calling for everything to be nerfed. This is destructive to the game and the community in kind.

ku5h

DDuke wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

Why not just give it a Streak treatment?! StamNBs wont be able to abuse it with little to none investment to mag and magBlades will be able to keep it up, but will drain as fast as Sorcs do when spaming.
I think it would be fair, even though when next patch hits I'll probably play some form of NB, if i'll play at all.

1. Cloak already has plenty of counters that make blanket nerfs to the skill (no matter how it's used) unnecessary.
2. Stamblades don't abuse it with little to none investment. I'll refer you to this clip where my cloak gets countered and practically does nothing except waste my magicka (and health, because I could've been dodging or spamming more Vigors instead): https://youtu.be/fIkz-AOoVHA?t=25s. You can see I get 3 cloaks off before I'm completely out of magicka. That's with the base magicka regen.
   
   Let's say you want 4 cloaks in a row on a stamblade. Assuming you get one magicka regen tick (611 base) during each 3705 cost cloak, you consume 9282 magicka & would thus need either 12 987 magicka pool (full tri-stat gear=10 557 in noCP) or additional 617 magicka regen on top of the base 611 mag regen (i.e. a total of 1228 magicka regen) to make up for the cost of that 4th cloak during the previous three. Needless to say, getting 611 magicka regen is a huge investment for a stamina build and that doesn't even let you "permacloak", that just lets you cast it one more time in a row.
   
   In order to "permacloak" on a stamina NB (i.e. regain the magicka you spent while in cloak) you would need around 2482 magicka regen, which while possible, completely kills off your damage and turns you into a bad troll build that dies to first person who spin2wins or another counter (as casting cloak every second would require 7410 magicka regen in such scenario, and you'd still take damage from the AoEs).
   
3. Streak always does something when you use the skill. I.e. you always (bugs aside) get the benefit of repositioning your character. Cloak many times does nothing when cast as you instantly get hit by AoE.
   
4. You would reward toxic zergs chasing solo players with such changes (who are already hit by the mobility nerfs next patch), as those are the scenarios where multiple cloaks are usually cast in a row in order to drop combat & get back into sneak rather than get 20v1'd (not everyone plays a heavy armor 7th Fury Troll King build that just tanks them all, not yet anyhow).
   
5. Medium armor, non-2H builds rely on it as much as sorcs rely on shields or healers rely on burst heals. I.e. when your healing is limited to an average 1,4k'ish/second (stacking weapon dmg/stamina to buff the tooltip) with Vigor, you need ways to survive getting bursted. Let's say you're hit by DBOS (in medium armor): if you just stand there and block because you can't cast cloak again due to some stacking cost modifier, you're just dead to executes and literally anything. If you dodge, you still die to jabs spam, jbeam, Fury explosion, Skoria proc etc or you know, just the DBOS DoT tick (which alone outdamages Vigor) & bleeds, Poison Injection etc.
   
6. The most broken meta stamblade builds don't even run cloak. It doesn't synergize with 7th Fury & Troll King as you want to be taking damage with those sets. Not that you'd even need to cast it since you can tank anything in that gear and still deal the same damage as builds that have to work their *** off just to survive. It is already not a good thing if you're forced to spam cloaks in a fight - it means you're taking pressure from opponent or fear getting one shot and "spamming" those cloaks (again, already established it's not possible to use them much on a stamina build) means you're spending global cooldowns not dealing damage to your opponent and letting them recover or set up defenses (or you know, just reveal you with AoE or det pot/poison to finish you off).

These are all reasons why a "stacking cost modifier" would completely kill off medium stamblades (especially non-meta ones that don't have a burst heal in Rally, though tbh these days all medium stamblades could be considered non-meta) and would cause a mass exodus to the actually problematic, overperforming heavy armor setups, which already only stand to get stronger next patch.


That said, I've been on the other end of the spectrum as well, playing with builds that have limited (or not strong enough) counters to Cloak and as one of the few who still main a medium stamblade I'd welcome a cooldown (similar to interrupting cast/channel, locks you out of using the skill again for a few seconds) on cloak if you get revealed by damage while in cloak.

This would reward skillful play by both the opponent and the NB and casting Cloak at the right time would matter, while cheesy zero dmg cloak spammers with 3k mag regen who abuse the skill to force misses on projectiles and what not wouldn't be a thing anymore.

A practical scenario with such change in place: imagine you're playing a magicka DK and you have your Volatile to break someone out of cloak, right? Well, no longer would one have to spam that skill with low impact damage and high cost to counter cloak, usually running out of magicka before the NB does.

Same goes for say, hitting a NB with Shalks on stamina Warden. You'd now have few seconds where they can't cloak again and that'd be the burst window.


I.e. skillful play should be rewarded and very often casting cloak multiple times in a row while dodging AoEs is that. Casting cloak while getting hit by those AoEs? Not so much, and I'd also like to see that punished more.

Insightful!

evoniee

honestly, who sloting shadowy disguise on main hand anyway ?

also, casting cloak to dodge direct damage too often as stamblade is not possible cause we need to save it for 'disengage and recover' from trading damage.

leepalmer95

Thogard wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I think suppressing heals only would be a good place to start instead of all regen.

Yes! Either this or make cloak bashable. NBs can reset the fight too easily, and trying to chase them down with Stam spammables just means that when they do re-engage, they’re at full Stam and the chaser is at 0.

DDuke wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

Oh boy... the good old "but NBs get those things from a passive and don't need to waste a skill slot!" argument again.

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"? Hurricane? Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)? Channeled Focus?

None of these are a "waste of a skill slot" - if anything the Major Ward/Resolve is a waste of a passive.


Also, are you next going to complain about Templars getting passive Minor Protection by using Aedric Spear abilities next patch? Much stronger buff than Major Ward/Resolve too.

Buzo wrote: »

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

I see people do just as well on stam sorc, stam warden, stamplar etc.

Major Evasion (no longer unique to stamblades when it comes to heavy armor builds next patch) is one of the reasons why heavy stamblade is competitive, Incap & Assassin's Will being the other reasons.

Other classes get their own good stuff (like Major Mending+more heals on stam warden, Hurricane & Implosion on stam sorc etc).


Cloak, or atleast the invisibility morph, doesn't even exist in this equation - it's a waste of a skill slot for builds that aim to take dmg in order to proc their sets.

The only thing that's been proven is that you have no idea how theorycrafting works.

Buzo wrote: »

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

Any class in a heavy armor meta build has better defensive capabilites than most of the random pugs around that person.

This is why almost every PvP video (regardless of class) out there these days has a player that's tanking 5+ people while his/her health bar is practically frozen due to all the mitigation & HoTs - after which the player then instagibs those pugs with Dawnbreakers or Incaps.

Buzo wrote: »

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

One big flaw in that theory: I play all classes.

Here's my destro/resto mDK for instance:


...and here's the class with "better defensive capabilities than most classes"...



Perhaps you should just learn how to counter some of the easiest kills that exist in Cyrodiil (cloak spamming NBs) and stop QQ'ing.

You are confusing the most played class for the easiest to kill class.

No he's right.

As soon as you counter cloak most nb's crumble. It's just the countering cloak that seems to elude most of this forum. Didn't realise slotting an aoe was such hard work.

Maryal

Buzo wrote: »

@Maryal

Dude you already tried to defend the lazy coding of skills with „Elder Scrolls lore“. Now you‘re trying it with pseudo factuality and a text wall of unrelated stuff.

You‘re already nominated for the Golden Fedora. You can stop trying now.

I'm not interested in responding to an 'insult' ... people resort to insults when they can't come up with a legitimate counter to what has been said.

If, however, you have a legitimate rebuttal or counter opinion, I'd be happy to hear it. Other than that, I have better things to do with my time than to engage in forum pvp.

Rukzadlithau

Maryal wrote: »

Cloak is fine and, for a variety of reasons, it needs to stay.

Cloak comes from shadow magic (the basis of most NB abilities). Like it or not, many class abilities and passives are rooted in Elder Scrolls lore.

This game has been and still is first and foremost an online mmorpg . Many pve'ers love to get immersed and RP in this game. RP'ing doesn't necessarily mean getting together with a group of people and chatting 'in character' ... it also includes players who get so immersed in the game its as if they actually exist in this virtual world doing the things their toon is doing. It's fun imaginative gameplay. Many pve'ers come to this game after having played one or more single player ES games ... and all ES games are drenched in lore.

That being said, it's important to keep in mind that historically (lore wise) NBs are the sneaky thieves and covert assassins in the ES universe. Their abilities are rooted in shadow magic (teleportation, shadow image, cloak, siphoning abilities, etc.). Of all NB abilities, cloaking is the most iconic NB ability there is - it defines the NB class.

Cloaking is the NBs primary defensive tool, and, as with any defensive tool (for any class), it can also be used offensively.
When a NB cloaks, they imbue themselves in a cloak of invisibility for a brief time. The invisibility allows for a quick escape when they are in trouble, and it also allows them to position themselves near a target to carry out an assassination. NBs are thieves and Cloak is ever so helpful in being able to slip past those pesky guards when on a heist for 'the guild'.

So, let's not forget, all you pvp'ers out there -- we all share our class skills with our pve community (and visa versa) ... meaning we need to take into account the effect any suggested change has on both communities.

Is cloak OP in pvp? No. It is actually fine the way it is. All classes have some basic 'defensive tools' in their class kit ... we all have an ability to heal and we all have one or more abilities that help facilitate our ability to self heal (Templars have their purge, DKs have their wings, Sorcs have their shields as well as their zoom-zoom (LOS), wardens have their netch (spammable purge), spammable shield, wings to facilitate distance (LOS), and some of the best HOTs this game has. What do NBs have? A sub-optimal HOT (especially if you are a stamblade) and cloak. Cloak lets us LOS and suppress dot damage but only so long as we are able to spam it (which isn't very long for stamblades). Without cloak we'd be like sitting ducks.

Side note: the 'new evasion' and NBs -- First of all, we didn't ask for this change and I for one don't even want it. Anyone can mitigate AOE damage via the weapon skill line or by using a specific armor set. Big deal. Blurr should give NBs something unique ... something other than AOE damage mitigation (because you know the pvp meta will shift focus away from AOE damage and more toward single target damage (which includes DOTs). This will result in making slotting 'evasion' (blurr) a wasted bar space in pvp.

Maryal wrote: »

click bait

@Maryal

The way you respond to a technical issue that is well explained in the first post and throughout the thread is first and foremost an insult to any constructive discussion.

Not only that, your responses are completely out of context, purposedly twist the topic and you ignore what people try to explain to you in a mannerful way.

It‘s also obnoxious that you think an elaborate write up of the non sensical content in your messages validates them somehow.

And before you ask - yes, the Golden Fedora is a gender neutral award.

leepalmer95

Buzo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Cloak is fine and, for a variety of reasons, it needs to stay.

Cloak comes from shadow magic (the basis of most NB abilities). Like it or not, many class abilities and passives are rooted in Elder Scrolls lore.

This game has been and still is first and foremost an online mmorpg . Many pve'ers love to get immersed and RP in this game. RP'ing doesn't necessarily mean getting together with a group of people and chatting 'in character' ... it also includes players who get so immersed in the game its as if they actually exist in this virtual world doing the things their toon is doing. It's fun imaginative gameplay. Many pve'ers come to this game after having played one or more single player ES games ... and all ES games are drenched in lore.

That being said, it's important to keep in mind that historically (lore wise) NBs are the sneaky thieves and covert assassins in the ES universe. Their abilities are rooted in shadow magic (teleportation, shadow image, cloak, siphoning abilities, etc.). Of all NB abilities, cloaking is the most iconic NB ability there is - it defines the NB class.

Cloaking is the NBs primary defensive tool, and, as with any defensive tool (for any class), it can also be used offensively.
When a NB cloaks, they imbue themselves in a cloak of invisibility for a brief time. The invisibility allows for a quick escape when they are in trouble, and it also allows them to position themselves near a target to carry out an assassination. NBs are thieves and Cloak is ever so helpful in being able to slip past those pesky guards when on a heist for 'the guild'.

So, let's not forget, all you pvp'ers out there -- we all share our class skills with our pve community (and visa versa) ... meaning we need to take into account the effect any suggested change has on both communities.

Is cloak OP in pvp? No. It is actually fine the way it is. All classes have some basic 'defensive tools' in their class kit ... we all have an ability to heal and we all have one or more abilities that help facilitate our ability to self heal (Templars have their purge, DKs have their wings, Sorcs have their shields as well as their zoom-zoom (LOS), wardens have their netch (spammable purge), spammable shield, wings to facilitate distance (LOS), and some of the best HOTs this game has. What do NBs have? A sub-optimal HOT (especially if you are a stamblade) and cloak. Cloak lets us LOS and suppress dot damage but only so long as we are able to spam it (which isn't very long for stamblades). Without cloak we'd be like sitting ducks.

Side note: the 'new evasion' and NBs -- First of all, we didn't ask for this change and I for one don't even want it. Anyone can mitigate AOE damage via the weapon skill line or by using a specific armor set. Big deal. Blurr should give NBs something unique ... something other than AOE damage mitigation (because you know the pvp meta will shift focus away from AOE damage and more toward single target damage (which includes DOTs). This will result in making slotting 'evasion' (blurr) a wasted bar space in pvp.

Maryal wrote: »

click bait

@Maryal

The way you respond to a technical issue that is well explained in the first post and throughout the thread is first and foremost an insult to any constructive discussion.

Not only that, your responses are completely out of context, purposedly twist the topic and you ignore what people try to explain to you in a mannerful way.

It‘s also obnoxious that you think an elaborate write up of the non sensical content in your messages validates them somehow.

And before you ask - yes, the Golden Fedora is a gender neutral award.

What is your main class?

I'm going to go ahead and say mag templar right?

bpmachete

Spamcloakblades some of the weakest players. I see a spamblade, I know he is high into magicka recovery (aka he weaksauce) I switch to my Vitality Detect pots, fight normally and hold on to that Dawnbreaker... block their weaksauce combo, hold block spam light attack for their fear incoming, then go offensive, when he cloaks use AOE, he tries to cloak and is just taken out of it repeatedly, dawnbreaker... if he survives maybe detect pot that if he gets an incap off negates his major defile time...

Spamblades are the easiest kills unless they are amazing players that could beat you with any class. Magicka night blade same type of thing but snare them as well... they in trouble if they can't burst...

Tbh if they mess up their cloak I doubt they could survive as it can already be countered by so many things... sometimes they can run away, who cares... same if I take an invis pot and run 🏃

Maryal

@Buzo

1.) I did not perceive your original comment to be technical, perhaps you did, but I didn't.

2.) You are not the only one who has posted in this thread - many many people have. You yourself have made numerous comments not strictly limited to the parameters of your first post in this thread. Throughout this thread there have been many comments regarding cloak.

3.) You are still choosing to respond via an insult, but since your response was not entirely composed of an insult, I am taking the time to respond:

There are a lot of people who are quick to jump on the nerf cloak bandwagon for a variety of reasons ranging from those that simply like to stir up trouble, to the mis-informed, to those who, with no ill-intent, genuinely feel the skill is OP.

Given the nature of these forums, I realize my viewpoint (that cloak is fine the way it is) is not a popular one. I also realize that the majority of people participating on the forums are pvp'ers who tend to look at skills/abilities/passives/gear/etc. through a 'pvp lense' and advocate for changes they feel would benefit pvp without regard to the effect it has on the majority of players who happen to be pve'ers.

You may not like that what I said in my previous posts, you may not agree with what I said -- but, understand that I am not trying to change your mind, or anyone else's. I say what I do because it is my viewpoint -- what I say often (but not always) represents a more 'pve' side of the coin, and as such, it wouldn't exactly support an initial pvp'ish 'call to action' as it were. I'm not asking for people to agree with my viewpoint, and I'm certainly not trying to force or bully them into adopting my viewpoint .... all I can hope is that reasonable people consider it and understanding where I'm coming from -- at the end of the day that's all anyone can ask.

All that being said, maybe it's time we simply agree to disagree - I'm really not interested in belaboring the point further.

lucky_dutch

How is this thread even still alive? We established that the OP's argument had more holes that swiss cheese by page 2

usmguy1234

I think the current dodgeroll + cloak is slightly op. I've been playing more of my dot/aoe magplar and nightblades built for cloak spam are much easier to handle. I think the changes to dodgeroll will be sufficient enough nerf. I'm more worried about all the stamden super tank hits like a truck builds running around in ball groups in cyrodiil.

Gilvoth

if you guys remove your nerf request threads and your "change this skill" threads from the skill lines, then the devs can do their work. please stop making these type of threads, it is killing eso.

Gilvoth

lucky_dutch wrote: »

How is this thread even still alive? We established that the OP's argument had more holes that swiss cheese by page 2

this ^

Maryal

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Cloak is fine and, for a variety of reasons, it needs to stay.

Cloak comes from shadow magic (the basis of most NB abilities). Like it or not, many class abilities and passives are rooted in Elder Scrolls lore.

This game has been and still is first and foremost an online mmorpg . Many pve'ers love to get immersed and RP in this game. RP'ing doesn't necessarily mean getting together with a group of people and chatting 'in character' ... it also includes players who get so immersed in the game its as if they actually exist in this virtual world doing the things their toon is doing. It's fun imaginative gameplay. Many pve'ers come to this game after having played one or more single player ES games ... and all ES games are drenched in lore.

That being said, it's important to keep in mind that historically (lore wise) NBs are the sneaky thieves and covert assassins in the ES universe. Their abilities are rooted in shadow magic (teleportation, shadow image, cloak, siphoning abilities, etc.). Of all NB abilities, cloaking is the most iconic NB ability there is - it defines the NB class.

Cloaking is the NBs primary defensive tool, and, as with any defensive tool (for any class), it can also be used offensively.
When a NB cloaks, they imbue themselves in a cloak of invisibility for a brief time. The invisibility allows for a quick escape when they are in trouble, and it also allows them to position themselves near a target to carry out an assassination. NBs are thieves and Cloak is ever so helpful in being able to slip past those pesky guards when on a heist for 'the guild'.

So, let's not forget, all you pvp'ers out there -- we all share our class skills with our pve community (and visa versa) ... meaning we need to take into account the effect any suggested change has on both communities.

Is cloak OP in pvp? No. It is actually fine the way it is. All classes have some basic 'defensive tools' in their class kit ... we all have an ability to heal and we all have one or more abilities that help facilitate our ability to self heal (Templars have their purge, DKs have their wings, Sorcs have their shields as well as their zoom-zoom (LOS), wardens have their netch (spammable purge), spammable shield, wings to facilitate distance (LOS), and some of the best HOTs this game has. What do NBs have? A sub-optimal HOT (especially if you are a stamblade) and cloak. Cloak lets us LOS and suppress dot damage but only so long as we are able to spam it (which isn't very long for stamblades). Without cloak we'd be like sitting ducks.

Side note: the 'new evasion' and NBs -- First of all, we didn't ask for this change and I for one don't even want it. Anyone can mitigate AOE damage via the weapon skill line or by using a specific armor set. Big deal. Blurr should give NBs something unique ... something other than AOE damage mitigation (because you know the pvp meta will shift focus away from AOE damage and more toward single target damage (which includes DOTs). This will result in making slotting 'evasion' (blurr) a wasted bar space in pvp.

Maryal wrote: »

click bait

@Maryal

The way you respond to a technical issue that is well explained in the first post and throughout the thread is first and foremost an insult to any constructive discussion.

Not only that, your responses are completely out of context, purposedly twist the topic and you ignore what people try to explain to you in a mannerful way.

It‘s also obnoxious that you think an elaborate write up of the non sensical content in your messages validates them somehow.

And before you ask - yes, the Golden Fedora is a gender neutral award.

What is your main class?

I'm going to go ahead and say mag templar right?

stamblade all the way 3+ years
stamden (played 4 months then stopped, not my cup of tea)
stamsorc (played 3 months then stopped, not my cup of tea)

bpmachete

Maryal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Cloak is fine and, for a variety of reasons, it needs to stay.

Cloak comes from shadow magic (the basis of most NB abilities). Like it or not, many class abilities and passives are rooted in Elder Scrolls lore.

This game has been and still is first and foremost an online mmorpg . Many pve'ers love to get immersed and RP in this game. RP'ing doesn't necessarily mean getting together with a group of people and chatting 'in character' ... it also includes players who get so immersed in the game its as if they actually exist in this virtual world doing the things their toon is doing. It's fun imaginative gameplay. Many pve'ers come to this game after having played one or more single player ES games ... and all ES games are drenched in lore.

That being said, it's important to keep in mind that historically (lore wise) NBs are the sneaky thieves and covert assassins in the ES universe. Their abilities are rooted in shadow magic (teleportation, shadow image, cloak, siphoning abilities, etc.). Of all NB abilities, cloaking is the most iconic NB ability there is - it defines the NB class.

Cloaking is the NBs primary defensive tool, and, as with any defensive tool (for any class), it can also be used offensively.
When a NB cloaks, they imbue themselves in a cloak of invisibility for a brief time. The invisibility allows for a quick escape when they are in trouble, and it also allows them to position themselves near a target to carry out an assassination. NBs are thieves and Cloak is ever so helpful in being able to slip past those pesky guards when on a heist for 'the guild'.

So, let's not forget, all you pvp'ers out there -- we all share our class skills with our pve community (and visa versa) ... meaning we need to take into account the effect any suggested change has on both communities.

Is cloak OP in pvp? No. It is actually fine the way it is. All classes have some basic 'defensive tools' in their class kit ... we all have an ability to heal and we all have one or more abilities that help facilitate our ability to self heal (Templars have their purge, DKs have their wings, Sorcs have their shields as well as their zoom-zoom (LOS), wardens have their netch (spammable purge), spammable shield, wings to facilitate distance (LOS), and some of the best HOTs this game has. What do NBs have? A sub-optimal HOT (especially if you are a stamblade) and cloak. Cloak lets us LOS and suppress dot damage but only so long as we are able to spam it (which isn't very long for stamblades). Without cloak we'd be like sitting ducks.

Side note: the 'new evasion' and NBs -- First of all, we didn't ask for this change and I for one don't even want it. Anyone can mitigate AOE damage via the weapon skill line or by using a specific armor set. Big deal. Blurr should give NBs something unique ... something other than AOE damage mitigation (because you know the pvp meta will shift focus away from AOE damage and more toward single target damage (which includes DOTs). This will result in making slotting 'evasion' (blurr) a wasted bar space in pvp.

Maryal wrote: »

click bait

@Maryal

The way you respond to a technical issue that is well explained in the first post and throughout the thread is first and foremost an insult to any constructive discussion.

Not only that, your responses are completely out of context, purposedly twist the topic and you ignore what people try to explain to you in a mannerful way.

It‘s also obnoxious that you think an elaborate write up of the non sensical content in your messages validates them somehow.

And before you ask - yes, the Golden Fedora is a gender neutral award.

What is your main class?

I'm going to go ahead and say mag templar right?

stamblade all the way 3+ years
stamden (played 4 months then stopped, not my cup of tea)
stamsorc (played 3 months then stopped, not my cup of tea)

This guy is so on point. It used to purge, hello it's super nerfed and most of us already know how to counter it hardcore. Assasins should have this in ESO, it's actually pretty awesome, get good and stop getting assasinated.

leepalmer95

Maryal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Cloak is fine and, for a variety of reasons, it needs to stay.

Cloak comes from shadow magic (the basis of most NB abilities). Like it or not, many class abilities and passives are rooted in Elder Scrolls lore.

This game has been and still is first and foremost an online mmorpg . Many pve'ers love to get immersed and RP in this game. RP'ing doesn't necessarily mean getting together with a group of people and chatting 'in character' ... it also includes players who get so immersed in the game its as if they actually exist in this virtual world doing the things their toon is doing. It's fun imaginative gameplay. Many pve'ers come to this game after having played one or more single player ES games ... and all ES games are drenched in lore.

That being said, it's important to keep in mind that historically (lore wise) NBs are the sneaky thieves and covert assassins in the ES universe. Their abilities are rooted in shadow magic (teleportation, shadow image, cloak, siphoning abilities, etc.). Of all NB abilities, cloaking is the most iconic NB ability there is - it defines the NB class.

Cloaking is the NBs primary defensive tool, and, as with any defensive tool (for any class), it can also be used offensively.
When a NB cloaks, they imbue themselves in a cloak of invisibility for a brief time. The invisibility allows for a quick escape when they are in trouble, and it also allows them to position themselves near a target to carry out an assassination. NBs are thieves and Cloak is ever so helpful in being able to slip past those pesky guards when on a heist for 'the guild'.

So, let's not forget, all you pvp'ers out there -- we all share our class skills with our pve community (and visa versa) ... meaning we need to take into account the effect any suggested change has on both communities.

Is cloak OP in pvp? No. It is actually fine the way it is. All classes have some basic 'defensive tools' in their class kit ... we all have an ability to heal and we all have one or more abilities that help facilitate our ability to self heal (Templars have their purge, DKs have their wings, Sorcs have their shields as well as their zoom-zoom (LOS), wardens have their netch (spammable purge), spammable shield, wings to facilitate distance (LOS), and some of the best HOTs this game has. What do NBs have? A sub-optimal HOT (especially if you are a stamblade) and cloak. Cloak lets us LOS and suppress dot damage but only so long as we are able to spam it (which isn't very long for stamblades). Without cloak we'd be like sitting ducks.

Side note: the 'new evasion' and NBs -- First of all, we didn't ask for this change and I for one don't even want it. Anyone can mitigate AOE damage via the weapon skill line or by using a specific armor set. Big deal. Blurr should give NBs something unique ... something other than AOE damage mitigation (because you know the pvp meta will shift focus away from AOE damage and more toward single target damage (which includes DOTs). This will result in making slotting 'evasion' (blurr) a wasted bar space in pvp.

Maryal wrote: »

click bait

@Maryal

The way you respond to a technical issue that is well explained in the first post and throughout the thread is first and foremost an insult to any constructive discussion.

Not only that, your responses are completely out of context, purposedly twist the topic and you ignore what people try to explain to you in a mannerful way.

It‘s also obnoxious that you think an elaborate write up of the non sensical content in your messages validates them somehow.

And before you ask - yes, the Golden Fedora is a gender neutral award.

What is your main class?

I'm going to go ahead and say mag templar right?

stamblade all the way 3+ years
stamden (played 4 months then stopped, not my cup of tea)
stamsorc (played 3 months then stopped, not my cup of tea)

You?

or the guy i asked?

Amdar_Godkiller

Maryal wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

You're either not knowledgable about the game or willfully dishonest.

1.

Maryal wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

Facts

1.

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Nightblade alone can access major and minor ward and resolve as well as evasion by hitting two skills, one of which is their spammable and the other one buffs crit damage passively: mirage https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mirage and surprise attack via the shadow barrier passive https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Shadow+Barrier . Please indicate all the other classes that can do this? Oh, there aren't any...

I also neglected to mention that NBs can activate all these plus major protection using mirage then the Shadow ultimate. So the truth is, I'm understating NB defensive capabilities, not overstating.

2.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending.

In order:

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Consuming+Darkness
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Dark+Cloak
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Soul+Siphon
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Swallow+Soul
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Healthy+Offering

3. How Nightblades can reach the speed cap while crouched:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438935/why-balance-always-fails#latest


So, once again, I'm not the one who is wrong here, @Maryal. You on the other hand are fake news.

Xvorg

bpmachete wrote: »

Spamcloakblades some of the weakest players. I see a spamblade, I know he is high into magicka recovery (aka he weaksauce) I switch to my Vitality Detect pots, fight normally and hold on to that Dawnbreaker... block their weaksauce combo, hold block spam light attack for their fear incoming, then go offensive, when he cloaks use AOE, he tries to cloak and is just taken out of it repeatedly, dawnbreaker... if he survives maybe detect pot that if he gets an incap off negates his major defile time...

Spamblades are the easiest kills unless they are amazing players that could beat you with any class. Magicka night blade same type of thing but snare them as well... they in trouble if they can't burst...

Tbh if they mess up their cloak I doubt they could survive as it can already be countered by so many things... sometimes they can run away, who cares... same if I take an invis pot and run 🏃

True, good NBs kill you anyway or at least give you a good fight. Spamblades is one of two, or they killed you quickly (catching you off guard) or they die quickly.

Most NBs don't know what to do when their burst don't work.

Xvorg

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

You're either not knowledgable about the game or willfully dishonest.

1.

Maryal wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

Facts

1.

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Nightblade alone can access major and minor ward and resolve as well as evasion by hitting two skills, one of which is their spammable and the other one buffs crit damage passively: mirage https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mirage and surprise attack via the shadow barrier passive https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Shadow+Barrier . Please indicate all the other classes that can do this? Oh, there aren't any...

I also neglected to mention that NBs can activate all these plus major protection using mirage then the Shadow ultimate. So the truth is, I'm understating NB defensive capabilities, not overstating.

2.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending.

In order:

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Consuming+Darkness
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Dark+Cloak
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Soul+Siphon
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Swallow+Soul
https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Healthy+Offering

3. How Nightblades can reach the speed cap while crouched:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/438935/why-balance-always-fails#latest


So, once again, I'm not the one who is wrong here, @Maryal. You on the other hand are fake news.

OK:

1- Major Ward and Major resolve are useless for DD NB on its spammable and its main defensive tool. NB is all about kill you as fast as possible, so, is the buff useful when the other one already died?
Then, why is that buff there? Because NBs also can tank somewhat decently and the buff was quite useful for NBs healers. Do you think a NB brawler can take advantage of the buff? It can't be casted outside of combat without telling everyone around that you are a NB. Sure, you can use a shade to get the buff, but unless you run in heavy, it last 6 secs, which is not enough to take advantage of it.

2- Have you ever seen a NB using Consuming Darkness in PvP? It's a wonderful skill for tanks. I saw it a couple times 3 or 4 years ago and also used it to catch noobs in resource towers (VoB morph). Not very useful and quite expensive. Soul Siphon is something similar but for healers. If you want to nerf the 2 most useful ultis for NB Tank and Healer, go ahead and let the whole PvE community get another nerf they don't need.
That leaves Swallow as the only "useful" buff for a DD (MO isn't worth to be considered) and you know it will be nerfed the comming patch? Then, what's the complaint? Mageblades get extra healing but stamblades... I still have to find a stamblade that use swallow front bar.

3- Just this:

Now my question: Have you ever played NB?

It is easy to talk about the "strong points" of a class based on what the book says, but it's a different story when you have to play the class. Honestly I invite you to try the class and after you learn how it is played, you will be better positioned to come here and give your insights, otherwise you are just barking at the wrong tree.