Shadowy Disguise (Cloak) Adjustment

ManDraKE

I love the argument about stamblades spamming cloak with no investment.

Having enought magika sustain to "spam" cloak takes a lot of investment, to have a decent magika sustain (not enought to "spam cloak" but good enought to sustain the use of cloak/fear to acceptable levels in high pressure situations) you at least need 12-15k magika pool and over 800magika recovery on medium (numbers change a little bit if you use heavy). So at minimium, you need 5+1+1, 3 to 5 tristat enchants and 1 magika recovery glyph (or atro mundus), and the only thing the attackers need to do to counter that is to have ONE aoe ability on their bars. And don´t even try to sustain those high cost magika abilities on non-cp withouth proper investment in magika sustain

There are people that plays with minimum magika sustain and invest all in damage, and those builds can't use cloak and fear more than once or twice before running out of magika completly, those kind of builds trend to not perform well on solo scenarios when you need cloak to survive.

This is another example of the "fix incap by putting the stun health threshold" fiasco, people asked that change for years and it didn´t took more than 5 minutes of test to realize it was an stupid change. As usual, most of the people posting in these threads don´t have a clue about nighblades. Having a rank10 AVA nighblade that you created thinking that you where going to be a 1vX god and abondoned one week latter after failing miserably doesn´t make you an authority in nighblade knowledge

Nicko_Lps

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Ragnarock41

Buzo wrote: »

@Maryal

Dude you already tried to defend the lazy coding of skills with „Elder Scrolls lore“. Now you‘re trying it with pseudo factuality and a text wall of unrelated stuff.

You‘re already nominated for the Golden Fedora. You can stop trying now.

I'm starting to like you more and more.

DDuke

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

Ragnarock41

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

You forget that stamDk gets nothing but pure defense meanwhile stamblade has the best offensive abilities+passives in the game. Even with this fact stamblade gives stamDk a run for his money when it comes to survival.

Also listing everything a class has without going into the detail is meaningless. Also thinking of battle roar as a burst heal... lol. You're trying your damn hardest to make sDk sound close to stamblade.. I'm amazed by your dedication.

DDuke

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

You forget that stamDk gets nothing but pure defense meanwhile stamblade has the best offensive abilities+passives in the game. Even with this fact stamblade gives stamDk a run for his money when it comes to survival.

If you pay attention to bolded sections, I'm specifically talking about defense as relates to the whole claim:

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

^
This is simply not factual and not corroborated by my in game experiences playing with stamblade or playing against stamblades (on any class). Cyrodiil is filled with cloak spammers who practically just roll over and die when you screw up their cheesy spam oriented playstyles by slotting spin2win, det pots or any of the other (some less obvious, such as slotting overwhelming surge that targets cloaked NBs) effective counters.

Ragnarock41 wrote:

Also listing everything a class has without going into the detail is meaningless. Also thinking of battle roar as a burst heal... lol. You're trying your damn hardest to make sDk sound close to stamblade.. I'm amazed by your dedication.

They aren't, not when it comes to killing potential, debuffs etc. But when it comes to survival... do you really think a medium armor stamblade (assuming cloak gets countered) is tankier than a medium armor... anything else? That's delirious.

Ragnarock41

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

You forget that stamDk gets nothing but pure defense meanwhile stamblade has the best offensive abilities+passives in the game. Even with this fact stamblade gives stamDk a run for his money when it comes to survival.

If you pay attention to bolded sections, I'm specifically talking about defense as relates to the whole claim:

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

^
This is simply not factual and not corroborated by my in game experiences playing with stamblade or playing against stamblades (on any class). Cyrodiil is filled with cloak spammers who practically just roll over and die when you screw up their cheesy spam oriented playstyles by slotting spin2win, det pots or any of the other (some less obvious, such as slotting overwhelming surge that targets cloaked NBs) effective counters.

Ragnarock41 wrote:

Also listing everything a class has without going into the detail is meaningless. Also thinking of battle roar as a burst heal... lol. You're trying your damn hardest to make sDk sound close to stamblade.. I'm amazed by your dedication.

They aren't, not when it comes to killing potential, debuffs etc. But when it comes to survival... do you really think a medium armor stamblade (assuming cloak gets countered) is tankier than a medium armor... anything else? That's delirious.

Point is, you're not supposed to be tankier than a stamDk to begin with. The fact that medium armor stamblades can blow someone up and walk away with zero risks involved thanks to shade/cloak is delirious.

DDuke

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

You forget that stamDk gets nothing but pure defense meanwhile stamblade has the best offensive abilities+passives in the game. Even with this fact stamblade gives stamDk a run for his money when it comes to survival.

If you pay attention to bolded sections, I'm specifically talking about defense as relates to the whole claim:

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

^
This is simply not factual and not corroborated by my in game experiences playing with stamblade or playing against stamblades (on any class). Cyrodiil is filled with cloak spammers who practically just roll over and die when you screw up their cheesy spam oriented playstyles by slotting spin2win, det pots or any of the other (some less obvious, such as slotting overwhelming surge that targets cloaked NBs) effective counters.

Ragnarock41 wrote:

Also listing everything a class has without going into the detail is meaningless. Also thinking of battle roar as a burst heal... lol. You're trying your damn hardest to make sDk sound close to stamblade.. I'm amazed by your dedication.

They aren't, not when it comes to killing potential, debuffs etc. But when it comes to survival... do you really think a medium armor stamblade (assuming cloak gets countered) is tankier than a medium armor... anything else? That's delirious.

Point is, you're not supposed to be tankier than a stamDk to begin with. The fact that medium armor stamblades can blow someone up and walk away with zero risks involved thanks to shade/cloak is delirious.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. When cloak gets countered stamblade is one of, if not the weakest class defensively.

Thank you for acknowledging the reality.


Now, I do sympathize with people who have limited (or less effective damage wise) counters to cloak.

I was just playing my mDK yesterday when I met this stain on the NB class - some 3k magicka regen sniper (with beyond pathetic damage, like 2-3k snipes at most on a light armor destro/resto DK) who would run away every time I approached and returned only to spam snipe at me when I fought other people.

I would volatile to reveal him (or proc overwhelming) only for that coward to keep spamming cloak 4... 5... 6.. times in a row until I was the one who had to stop to Meditate for resources.


I did kill that sniper several times, but these kinds of cowardly, toxic builds need to be addressed and a very simple and good way would be cooldown on recloaking if you're revealed by damage.

Ragnarock41

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

You forget that stamDk gets nothing but pure defense meanwhile stamblade has the best offensive abilities+passives in the game. Even with this fact stamblade gives stamDk a run for his money when it comes to survival.

If you pay attention to bolded sections, I'm specifically talking about defense as relates to the whole claim:

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

^
This is simply not factual and not corroborated by my in game experiences playing with stamblade or playing against stamblades (on any class). Cyrodiil is filled with cloak spammers who practically just roll over and die when you screw up their cheesy spam oriented playstyles by slotting spin2win, det pots or any of the other (some less obvious, such as slotting overwhelming surge that targets cloaked NBs) effective counters.

Ragnarock41 wrote:

Also listing everything a class has without going into the detail is meaningless. Also thinking of battle roar as a burst heal... lol. You're trying your damn hardest to make sDk sound close to stamblade.. I'm amazed by your dedication.

They aren't, not when it comes to killing potential, debuffs etc. But when it comes to survival... do you really think a medium armor stamblade (assuming cloak gets countered) is tankier than a medium armor... anything else? That's delirious.

Point is, you're not supposed to be tankier than a stamDk to begin with. The fact that medium armor stamblades can blow someone up and walk away with zero risks involved thanks to shade/cloak is delirious.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. When cloak gets countered stamblade is one of, if not the weakest class defensively.

Thank you for acknowledging the reality.


Now, I do sympathize with people who have limited (or less effective damage wise) counters to cloak.

I was just playing my mDK yesterday when I met this stain on the NB class - some 3k magicka regen sniper (with beyond pathetic damage, like 2-3k snipes at most on a light armor destro/resto DK) who would run away every time I approached and returned only to spam snipe at me when I fought other people.

I would volatile to reveal him (or proc overwhelming) only for that coward to keep spamming cloak 4... 5... 6.. times in a row until I was the one who had to stop to Meditate for resources.


I did kill that sniper several times, but these kinds of cowardly, toxic builds need to be addressed and a very simple and good way would be cooldown on recloaking if you're revealed by damage.

No it will still be the class with best murdering tools. Even without the invisibility from cloak, nightblade still offers a lot compared to stamina Dk.

You have to keep in mind that most cloak countering abilities, purely exist for the sake of countering cloak, yet they still do a very bad job at it.

If you think surviving without cloak in medium is too difficult, yes, you are right. Thats not very different for stamDK, just like stamblade, stamDK in medium also lacks the tools to survive burst.. Absurd healing is meaningless when you can die with two hits. And guess which class hurts the most when I'm in medium.. I'll give you a hint: Its referred to as ''sNb''

DDuke

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

You forget that stamDk gets nothing but pure defense meanwhile stamblade has the best offensive abilities+passives in the game. Even with this fact stamblade gives stamDk a run for his money when it comes to survival.

If you pay attention to bolded sections, I'm specifically talking about defense as relates to the whole claim:

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

^
This is simply not factual and not corroborated by my in game experiences playing with stamblade or playing against stamblades (on any class). Cyrodiil is filled with cloak spammers who practically just roll over and die when you screw up their cheesy spam oriented playstyles by slotting spin2win, det pots or any of the other (some less obvious, such as slotting overwhelming surge that targets cloaked NBs) effective counters.

Ragnarock41 wrote:

Also listing everything a class has without going into the detail is meaningless. Also thinking of battle roar as a burst heal... lol. You're trying your damn hardest to make sDk sound close to stamblade.. I'm amazed by your dedication.

They aren't, not when it comes to killing potential, debuffs etc. But when it comes to survival... do you really think a medium armor stamblade (assuming cloak gets countered) is tankier than a medium armor... anything else? That's delirious.

Point is, you're not supposed to be tankier than a stamDk to begin with. The fact that medium armor stamblades can blow someone up and walk away with zero risks involved thanks to shade/cloak is delirious.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. When cloak gets countered stamblade is one of, if not the weakest class defensively.

Thank you for acknowledging the reality.


Now, I do sympathize with people who have limited (or less effective damage wise) counters to cloak.

I was just playing my mDK yesterday when I met this stain on the NB class - some 3k magicka regen sniper (with beyond pathetic damage, like 2-3k snipes at most on a light armor destro/resto DK) who would run away every time I approached and returned only to spam snipe at me when I fought other people.

I would volatile to reveal him (or proc overwhelming) only for that coward to keep spamming cloak 4... 5... 6.. times in a row until I was the one who had to stop to Meditate for resources.


I did kill that sniper several times, but these kinds of cowardly, toxic builds need to be addressed and a very simple and good way would be cooldown on recloaking if you're revealed by damage.

No it will still be the class with best murdering tools. Even without the invisibility from cloak, nightblade still offers a lot compared to stamina Dk.

You have to keep in mind that most cloak countering abilities, purely exist for the sake of countering cloak, yet they still do a very bad job at it.

If you think surviving without cloak in medium is too difficult, yes, you are right. Thats not very different for stamDK, just like stamblade, stamDK in medium also lacks the tools to survive burst.. Absurd healing is meaningless when you can die with two hits. And guess which class hurts the much when I'm in medium.. I'll give you a hint: Its referred to as ''sNb''

Never said they didn't have good offensive power, or that they were worse than stam DK or bad in any manner.

I'm simply making the case that defensively NBs don't have much when you counter their cloak, and are thus very easy to kill in PvP when you have those counters slotted.

Contrary to what people like

Amdar_Godkiller wrote:

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

...would have you believe.


This is not a "stam DK>stamblade" argument, don't interpret it as such.

Nicko_Lps

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

A GOOD stamDK cant escape 10 zerglings trying to kill and get 10 AP each. Only a sorc has a small potential and nightblades. Thats how DK's pay the price for their tankiness in 1v1.

StamDK's have probably not even the half burst stamblades have. Yet you had to complain right?

Thank you for correcting me that the class you mentioned that has 1 defensive only has another one i forgot. Even the light attacks their dps filler heals them+restores resourses+procs the hardest hitting skill ingame.

Cloak can be countered indeed, but if you slot the most OP thing nightblades use against me that is called shade and saves you+debuffs me you can evade my pots. Just drop shade, roll roll roll roll roll roll TP to shade cloak and vanish. L2P if they get you with pots.


You said nightblades have only 1 defensive, yet how i embarrassed myself while they have almost 10 and you corrected me adding another one?

DDuke

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

A GOOD stamDK cant escape 10 zerglings trying to kill and get 10 AP each. Only a sorc has a small potential and nightblades. Thats how DK's pay the price for their tankiness in 1v1.

StamDK's have probably not even the half burst stamblades have. Yet you had to complain right?

Thank you for correcting me that the class you mentioned that has 1 defensive only has another one i forgot. Even the light attacks their dps filler heals them+restores resourses+procs the hardest hitting skill ingame.

Cloak can be countered indeed, but if you slot the most OP thing nightblades use against me that is called shade and saves you+debuffs me you can evade my pots. Just drop shade, roll roll roll roll roll roll TP to shade cloak and vanish. L2P if they get you with pots.


You said nightblades have only 1 defensive, yet how i embarrassed myself while they have almost 10 and you corrected me adding another one?

Except nowhere did I say NBs "have only 1 defensive" - this is what I said and I stand by it:

DDuke wrote:

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

If you want your own "Shadow Image" that you don't have to micromanage every time, one that doesn't restrict your mobility by it's range limitation or timer, then slot Temporal Guard (or the other morph). Available to any class in the game and even many NBs replace Shadow Image on their back bar with it as it frees up a skill slot for something else (while offensively you still have Incap for most scenarios).

In maybe 1% of the fights I have against NBs in Cyrodiil is Shadow Image (or Temporal Guard/Precognition) any kind of a factor, vast majority of people don't know how to use them.

rfennell_ESO

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

LoL.

I didn't know this was competition to make the most misleading statements in a thread, but you will be hard to be dethroned.

The only defensive buff they have access to is shadow barrier.

The only get minor vitality for slotting one morph (swallow soul). They don't have access to minor or major mending except for slotting malevolent offering, and that's only minor.

Furthermore, it's like you look at the list of minor and majors and see nightblade has *access* to them, but don't realize that, in many cases, it's only through morphs that aren't going to be used nor on the same build. Facts are facts though, and no nightblade reasonably has any of these minors and majors.

Rukzadlithau

@DDuke

NB‘s slot that because it‘s one of their best choices for a defensive ultimate on bow/dw/2h as backbar. Not to replicate the effect of a class ability lol.

Shade can be treated as one of the most effective Major Ward/Resolve buffs:

• Shadow Barrier
• Minor Maim
• Unpurgable „dot“
• Drains block
• Depletes Scales / Shimmering Shield
• LOS ignoring mobility

The „micromanagement“ argument only becomes true if you chose to build with too many „buffs“.

And NB is still nowhere near the weakest class in terms of defensive measures if you exclude Shadowy Disguise.

DDuke

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

NB‘s slot that because it‘s one of their best choices for a defensive ultimate on bow/dw/2h as backbar. Not to replicate the effect of a class ability lol.

Shade can be treated as one of the most effective Major Ward/Resolve buffs:

• Shadow Barrier
• Minor Maim
• Unpurgable „dot“
• Drains block
• Depletes Scales / Shimmering Shield
• LOS ignoring mobility

The „micromanagement“ argument only becomes true if you chose to build with too many „buffs“.

And NB is still nowhere near the weakest class in terms of defensive measures if you exclude Shadowy Disguise.

But that's precisely what Temporal Guard does: it replicates the (main) effect of Shadow Image - and is available for everyone. Does it have Minor Maim (against one opponent, half the time a sorc or warden pet) or a pitifully small DoT? No, but it restores your resources which is incredibly strong and makes sure you have resources to cast your other defensive abilities after you port with it (which isn't always the case after using your Shadow Image).

Point is, Shadow Image is good but it's not something other classes can't have if they wish so. I run it on my stam sorc and stam DK (and 3/4 of my current stamblade builds).

The "micromanagement" refers to not just having too many buffs (I think other classes have it worse tbh when it comes to rebuffing, especially wardens), but also to the fact you need to keep track of the timer and your distance to the Shadow Image as failing either likely gets you killed when instead of teleporting you drop a new shadow image and die to a zerg. This limits your movement and the time you have to pressure target(s).

It's also a skill you can't cast from sneak or cloak without letting the entire enemy zerg know you're there, so finding a wall to hide behind before dropping it becomes another micromanagement aspect of playing with Shadow Image - atleast in solo play.

Frankly there's a lot of reasons I prefer to run Temporal Guard over it on most builds, and I don't even run the usual morph of Fear (which applies Minor Maim, which overlaps with Shadow Image).


...and yes, NB is still the weakest class defensively when cloak gets countered and I'd be happy to fight any medium stamblade you can find on PC EU with my spin2win stamblade to prove my point. I can guarantee you stam DKs with Major Mending, +12% passive healing etc live longer, as do stamplars who can cleanse my Incaps, Sheer Venoms & PIs etc and stam sorcs who can BoL away from the spin2win. No comment about Wardens who get like 3 times more healing than a stamblade.


I'm not complaining btw, that's how NBs are designed: high offense, but squishy & reliant on mobility/cloak to live (unless they slot the usual heavy meta sets in which case they're just as unkillable as other classes in same gear).

Rukzadlithau

@DDuke

Dude if someone slots Shadow Image he mainly wants the mobility component to be a crucial element of his playstyle, de- and offensively. You are not going to replicate that with an 120 point ultimate on NB or other classes.

Your text wall won‘t change this either.

DDuke

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

Dude if someone slots Shadow Image he mainly wants the mobility element to be a crucial element of his playstyle, de- and offensively. You are not going to replicate that with an 120 point ultimate on NB or other classes.

Your text wall won‘t change this either.

I guess you'll feel pretty silly then after I release build video for what I'm doing right now


Also there's plenty of good players already running it in place of Shadow Image (Moontan for example, biggest NB streamer atm for this game afaik).

Rukzadlithau

@DDuke

It is a defensive ultimate, it‘s not as frequently usable and you won‘t have your offensive ultimate ready once you „teleported“. The effect is way more obvious than Shadow Image and can be backtracked easier. Also you lose the option for other ultimates with defensive features.

But sure, edit videos when it actually worked to your favour and back your theory with other peoples credit. I truly feel silly already.

kaithuzar

I think the point everyone seems to be missing here is this:

Damage as far as “who wins the fight” is a complicated algorithm. Part of that equation is “can I mitigate enough of my opponents dps so that when we are just hitting each other with skills 1:1, that my damage comes out ahead.
This is a primary

Mitigation can be defined as tanky, shield stacking, out healing their dps or other.

Brutusmax1mus

Add a 1 second cast time....duuuuhhhhhh

DDuke

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

It is a defensive ultimate, it‘s not as frequently usable and you won‘t have your offensive ultimate ready once you „teleported“. The effect is way more obvious than Shadow Image and can be backtracked easier. Also you lose the option for other ultimates with defensive features.

But sure, edit videos when it actually worked to your favour and back your theory with other peoples credit. I truly feel silly already.

...and how often do you need your offensive ultimate when you're escaping a zerg? I will rather take my resources back tyvm. And I also like not feeling tied to the Shadow Image, having a 20s window before I have to stop attacking or lose the Image.

Also 128 ultimate is nothing, you get that in 36 seconds with just normal 3 ulti/s + 20 from potion - not that you'd usually even start from 0. It's very close to Shadow Image in terms of how often it can be used - with the difference that it doesn't have to be used.


...but yeah, what am I talking. Of course you (a random nobody) know better than people who, you know, actually play NB and create top tier builds for it.

Rukzadlithau

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Add a 1 second cast time....duuuuhhhhhh

*cooldown when uncloaked

Gilvoth

we helped you and stood with you asking to stop the 1 second delay on shields and the devs listened.
you return that favor to us by asking for our defense to be ruined, add a 1 second cast time and delay and cooldown as your response.
and in addition you Guys keep spamming this forum with nerf requests.

Rukzadlithau

DDuke wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

It is a defensive ultimate, it‘s not as frequently usable and you won‘t have your offensive ultimate ready once you „teleported“. The effect is way more obvious than Shadow Image and can be backtracked easier. Also you lose the option for other ultimates with defensive features.

But sure, edit videos when it actually worked to your favour and back your theory with other peoples credit. I truly feel silly already.

...and how often do you need your offensive ultimate when you're escaping a zerg? I will rather take my resources back tyvm. And I also like not feeling tied to the Shadow Image, having a 20s window before I have to stop attacking or lose the Image.

Also 128 ultimate is nothing, you get that in 36 seconds with just normal 3 ulti/s + 20 from potion - not that you'd usually even start from 0. It's very close to Shadow Image in terms of how often it can be used - with the difference that it doesn't have to be used.

...but yeah, what am I talking. Of course you (a random nobody) know better than people who, you know, actually play NB and create top tier builds for it.

Okay, I‘m sorry you video game authority.

Nicko_Lps

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

A GOOD stamDK cant escape 10 zerglings trying to kill and get 10 AP each. Only a sorc has a small potential and nightblades. Thats how DK's pay the price for their tankiness in 1v1.

StamDK's have probably not even the half burst stamblades have. Yet you had to complain right?

Thank you for correcting me that the class you mentioned that has 1 defensive only has another one i forgot. Even the light attacks their dps filler heals them+restores resourses+procs the hardest hitting skill ingame.

Cloak can be countered indeed, but if you slot the most OP thing nightblades use against me that is called shade and saves you+debuffs me you can evade my pots. Just drop shade, roll roll roll roll roll roll TP to shade cloak and vanish. L2P if they get you with pots.


You said nightblades have only 1 defensive, yet how i embarrassed myself while they have almost 10 and you corrected me adding another one?

Except nowhere did I say NBs "have only 1 defensive" - this is what I said and I stand by it:

DDuke wrote:

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

If you want your own "Shadow Image" that you don't have to micromanage every time, one that doesn't restrict your mobility by it's range limitation or timer, then slot Temporal Guard (or the other morph). Available to any class in the game and even many NBs replace Shadow Image on their back bar with it as it frees up a skill slot for something else (while offensively you still have Incap for most scenarios).

In maybe 1% of the fights I have against NBs in Cyrodiil is Shadow Image (or Temporal Guard/Precognition) any kind of a factor, vast majority of people don't know how to use them.

Thats why you whine on sorc threat forum for sorc nerfs, because you dont slot your ultimate defense against them.
L2P boi whine less. All good after.

DDuke

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

A GOOD stamDK cant escape 10 zerglings trying to kill and get 10 AP each. Only a sorc has a small potential and nightblades. Thats how DK's pay the price for their tankiness in 1v1.

StamDK's have probably not even the half burst stamblades have. Yet you had to complain right?

Thank you for correcting me that the class you mentioned that has 1 defensive only has another one i forgot. Even the light attacks their dps filler heals them+restores resourses+procs the hardest hitting skill ingame.

Cloak can be countered indeed, but if you slot the most OP thing nightblades use against me that is called shade and saves you+debuffs me you can evade my pots. Just drop shade, roll roll roll roll roll roll TP to shade cloak and vanish. L2P if they get you with pots.


You said nightblades have only 1 defensive, yet how i embarrassed myself while they have almost 10 and you corrected me adding another one?

Except nowhere did I say NBs "have only 1 defensive" - this is what I said and I stand by it:

DDuke wrote:

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

If you want your own "Shadow Image" that you don't have to micromanage every time, one that doesn't restrict your mobility by it's range limitation or timer, then slot Temporal Guard (or the other morph). Available to any class in the game and even many NBs replace Shadow Image on their back bar with it as it frees up a skill slot for something else (while offensively you still have Incap for most scenarios).

In maybe 1% of the fights I have against NBs in Cyrodiil is Shadow Image (or Temporal Guard/Precognition) any kind of a factor, vast majority of people don't know how to use them.

Thats why you whine on sorc threat forum for sorc nerfs, because you dont slot your ultimate defense against them.
L2P boi whine less. All good after.

Lmao. Where am I "whining for sorc nerfs" now? Are you still sad that Rune Cage got nerfed, an ability about which almost everyone in this game "whined" about?

If not, care to elaborate on my "whining for sorc nerfs"?


Also, reading comprehension: I still run Shadow Image on one of my (4) stamblade builds, and I'd say I do better on the other three builds than the people who use Shadow Image when it comes to KDR.

If you're bursted by let's say a sorc, it's always been far better to use Psijic Ulti & get back all the resources than (maybe) port somewhere with the Shadow Image. These days of course it's easier to just CC break, dodge & cloak after sorc burst.



Still waiting to see these "unkillable cloak spammer shadow image NBs" from you or @Buzo . From what I know you neither of you have even leveled a NB, let alone played 400 days on one.

KingJ

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve.

Magblade defensives: Cloak for days+shade debuff+Refreshing path+swallow soul heal+shield+teleport for days+mutagen+Passive major ward/resolve+Passively perm major expedition.

These are the defensive skills+passive GOOD nightblades use.


As always my friend @DDuke youre highly in contact with reality im sure you will need a nightblade defense buff soon in your bow ganking build.

Stamblade defensives : Cloak+Suffle+endlessrolls+vigor+rally+Teleport+Shade debuff+Passive major ward/resolve+leeching strikes and/or meditate heals.

You forgot something. Now let's compare to... idk, stam DK?

Stam DK defenses: Major Evasion (Quick Cloak)+Vigor+Rally+Major Ward/Resolve (Volatile/Hardened Armor)+Projectile Reflection/Snare & Root Removal (Reflective Plate)+12% more healing received+10% more blocked+3,3k Spell Resistance (i.e. 5% less spell dmg taken)+Major Mending+burst heal whenever ultimate is used+just as many dodge rolls as the NB.


...which one do you think is harder to kill when cloak is countered? Rhetorical question, don't bother embarrassing yourself.


When cloak is countered, stamblade is the squishiest of all classes and by far the easiest kills in Cyrodiil if you can tank/avoid their burst.

Yes, there are still tanky heavy armor stamblades that deal a lot of damage, but when you compare them to other classes in same gear you'll notice that they aren't more tanky than those, though they still have (arguably) more deadly pressure thanks to Incaps & the +20% dmg on bleeds etc that follows.

A GOOD stamDK cant escape 10 zerglings trying to kill and get 10 AP each. Only a sorc has a small potential and nightblades. Thats how DK's pay the price for their tankiness in 1v1.

StamDK's have probably not even the half burst stamblades have. Yet you had to complain right?

Thank you for correcting me that the class you mentioned that has 1 defensive only has another one i forgot. Even the light attacks their dps filler heals them+restores resourses+procs the hardest hitting skill ingame.

Cloak can be countered indeed, but if you slot the most OP thing nightblades use against me that is called shade and saves you+debuffs me you can evade my pots. Just drop shade, roll roll roll roll roll roll TP to shade cloak and vanish. L2P if they get you with pots.


You said nightblades have only 1 defensive, yet how i embarrassed myself while they have almost 10 and you corrected me adding another one?

Except nowhere did I say NBs "have only 1 defensive" - this is what I said and I stand by it:

DDuke wrote:

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

If you want your own "Shadow Image" that you don't have to micromanage every time, one that doesn't restrict your mobility by it's range limitation or timer, then slot Temporal Guard (or the other morph). Available to any class in the game and even many NBs replace Shadow Image on their back bar with it as it frees up a skill slot for something else (while offensively you still have Incap for most scenarios).

In maybe 1% of the fights I have against NBs in Cyrodiil is Shadow Image (or Temporal Guard/Precognition) any kind of a factor, vast majority of people don't know how to use them.

Thats why you whine on sorc threat forum for sorc nerfs, because you dont slot your ultimate defense against them.
L2P boi whine less. All good after.

From what I know you neither of you have even leveled a NB, let alone played 400 days on one.

Only 400 days

Insert pump those numbers up gifs.

IZZEFlameLash

Quick, NB defense force! Rally here! Lest Wrobel betrays his own kind!

Feanor

Frankly, I’ve come to accept the fact it doesn’t matter. The stamina/magicka gap in
PvP and especially in noCP has grown to an abyss recently. In the grand picture messing with Cloak won’t solve anything.

Sennecca

Why is it that when a person suggests that a offensive skill does not effect a defensive skill enough the first thought is to nerf the defensive skill. When nerfing a defensive skill, the player's surviveability is affected in every aspect of gameplay. why not buff an offensive skill to the one part of the one part of the defensive skill that is a problem (if it indeed IS a problem) to provide a counterplay (if there is none). Nerfing defensive abilities broad spectrum has been ZOS's response to any suggestion of one particular part of gameplay that has been a problem. Hence, we have the magicka players who's survivability has been hit hard because zos can't think of a way to buff healing to make it useful.