Shadowy Disguise (Cloak) Adjustment

starkerealm

brandonv516 wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

Since the introduction of the short „force miss“ time frame when the skill is casted, it offers too much.
This force miss can negate damage/control components of skills, that are supposed to work reliably as counter to cloak, entierly.
A good example is Dawnbreaker of Smiting: When DBoS is casted about simoultaneously as cloak it „misses“ - no damage, no cc, just vanished.

While I think this mechanic is absurd and totally op, I‘m aware this was ZOS‘ only option to the uncloaking problematic the skill suffered from when an attack registered right before you went invisible and thus pulled you out of invisibility.

What I propose:

• The skill should surpress any type of regeneration while it‘s active, as it already surpresses dots.
• Any ability casted during cloak invisibility should unveil the nightblade.
• With the force miss mechanic there should be more occasional counters to cloak, for example a Meteor should not simply vanish. Potl explosions should break it just as Haunting Curse, Skoria procs should uncloak etc.

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

I'm kinda bummed that Acid Spray's DoT will no longer force NBs back out of cloak. That used to be a reliable way to force them to stay visible. But, yeah, @brandonv516's correct here.

The only nitpick is that the buffs that will break cloak, vs the ones that won't is entirely idiosyncratic. You do, kinda, learn over time what you can buff up in stealth and what you can't. Sometimes this makes sense, but other times it's just strange.

lucky_dutch

lol no. You have bad opinions.

Maryal

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.


Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).


It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.


NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.


NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

You've said nothing that is factual.
Your statements are all opinion based. To be factual, you need to identify the source from from which you derived your information (and that source needs to be information objectively gathered). Factual information is objective information - it can be checked and verified by reviewing the sources from which it was obtained. Your information is subjective opinion and nothing more.

Rukzadlithau

DDuke wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

Oh boy... the good old "but NBs get those things from a passive and don't need to waste a skill slot!" argument again.

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"? Hurricane? Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)? Channeled Focus?

None of these are a "waste of a skill slot" - if anything the Major Ward/Resolve is a waste of a passive.


Also, are you next going to complain about Templars getting passive Minor Protection by using Aedric Spear abilities next patch? Much stronger buff than Major Ward/Resolve too.

Buzo wrote: »

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

I see people do just as well on stam sorc, stam warden, stamplar etc.

Major Evasion (no longer unique to stamblades when it comes to heavy armor builds next patch) is one of the reasons why heavy stamblade is competitive, Incap & Assassin's Will being the other reasons.

Other classes get their own good stuff (like Major Mending+more heals on stam warden, Hurricane & Implosion on stam sorc etc).


Cloak, or atleast the invisibility morph, doesn't even exist in this equation - it's a waste of a skill slot for builds that aim to take dmg in order to proc their sets.

The only thing that's been proven is that you have no idea how theorycrafting works.

Buzo wrote: »

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

Any class in a heavy armor meta build has better defensive capabilites than most of the random pugs around that person.

This is why almost every PvP video (regardless of class) out there these days has a player that's tanking 5+ people while his/her health bar is practically frozen due to all the mitigation & HoTs - after which the player then instagibs those pugs with Dawnbreakers or Incaps.

Buzo wrote: »

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

One big flaw in that theory: I play all classes.

Here's my destro/resto mDK for instance:


...and here's the class with "better defensive capabilities than most classes"...



Perhaps you should just learn how to counter some of the easiest kills that exist in Cyrodiil (cloak spamming NBs) and stop QQ'ing.

@DDuke

The only guy calling these skills a „waste“ is you. I never disregarded the viability of other skills, but the way to access the buffs they provide is mostly not as convenient as on NB.

Major Evasion is still exclusive to NB on heavy armor builds if someone decides not to opt for Dual wield. How you illustrate things is simply not correct.

You respond with your magdk to the callout of playing another medium armor toon than stamblade and your youtube channel is flooded with stamblade videos...

Your kill statistic has nothing to do with classes survivability but rather with their popularity.

Again, I have no problem to counter cloak.
This topic is not mainly about counters to cloak. This topic is about cloak being too easy and efficent of a source to too many defensive measures.

idk

It seems the OP was prepared hastily.

The first suggestion has nothing to do with what OP described. We will deem it irrelevant.

As for any skill fired during the cloak should unveil the NB, that is rather over powered. Any skill, I use Igneous shield and for some reason the NB is revealed. Maybe OP meant to word it differently, but this seems to be a very wrong.

I would also like to suggest to OP that there are skills readily available to everyone to pull that NB out of stealth.

It will not fix the DBoS but that is a separate issue and the specifics to that were discovered just this past year. I believe the server still registers the attack but it does not register client side. Basically, the player can appear to have 24k health but only have 12k in this situation.

Rukzadlithau

@idk

There‘s no suggestion to fix the DBoS issue.
I‘m aware that this is how ZOS wants cloak to work and stated the reason why. What I‘m saying is: because it works this way and enforces such occasions it offers too much.

The same issue also occurs on other abilities that are supposed to uncloak when they hit simoultaneously as the NB enters invisibility, such as the 1. tick of WoE, a hit of Deep Fissure etc.

The health desynch is also not always true, this should be clear as a cc component also vanishes and is not incorrectly displayed by client side, rather it just never happened.

What I meant by: „Any ability casted during cloak invisibility should unveil the nightblade“ is that NB‘s should not be able to cast skills during cloak invisibility and stay invisible. Thanks for pointing out this is worded bad, I will edit accordingly.

Ragnaroek93

The next patch is very worrying. They remove the passive dodge chance from Major Evasion and also reduce the invisibility frames from dodgeroll which is a huge nerf to all medium armor builds while they are buffing Cloak by nerfing Mark Target (which is a good nerf tho because hard counters are lazy game design). However, it's not difficult to see there this will end: Med armor being once again only viable for Nbs because other classes lack the tools to survive or to adapt while wearing medium armor.
I don't think that medium armor stamnb is super overpowered it's more like bad game design to combine high frontloaded burst with stealth. That's the difference why Cloak on magnb is fine while it's toxic on stamnb. Magnb doesn't have frontloaded burst, in this case Cloak becomes a purely defensive skill. When a stamnb Cloaks it's not only a defensive mechanism, it pushes you into defense and to waste resources because the stamnb can burst most of your health down with a heavy attack and an Incap.

The best solution would be to shift some survivability from Cloak to medium armor and bow builds (maybe buff medium armor instead of nerfing it, like you promised earlier @ZOS ???????). You don't even need to play another class in medium armor, just take the heal morph of Cloak instead and it will be extremely obvious how strong Cloak actually is and how weak medium armor is (you'll get toasted by bleeds, procs, pressure builds and lolassault).

I don't think that your suggestions to Cloak are the right approaches tho: They punish magnb's too hard, it would probably be better to give Cloak some scaling with magicka and spelldmg. However, something needs to happen about it, many Nbs don't want to hear this but otherwise the class will get hit as hard as magsorcs one day and lose their class identity.

DDuke

Buzo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

Oh boy... the good old "but NBs get those things from a passive and don't need to waste a skill slot!" argument again.

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"? Hurricane? Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)? Channeled Focus?

None of these are a "waste of a skill slot" - if anything the Major Ward/Resolve is a waste of a passive.


Also, are you next going to complain about Templars getting passive Minor Protection by using Aedric Spear abilities next patch? Much stronger buff than Major Ward/Resolve too.

Buzo wrote: »

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

I see people do just as well on stam sorc, stam warden, stamplar etc.

Major Evasion (no longer unique to stamblades when it comes to heavy armor builds next patch) is one of the reasons why heavy stamblade is competitive, Incap & Assassin's Will being the other reasons.

Other classes get their own good stuff (like Major Mending+more heals on stam warden, Hurricane & Implosion on stam sorc etc).


Cloak, or atleast the invisibility morph, doesn't even exist in this equation - it's a waste of a skill slot for builds that aim to take dmg in order to proc their sets.

The only thing that's been proven is that you have no idea how theorycrafting works.

Buzo wrote: »

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

Any class in a heavy armor meta build has better defensive capabilites than most of the random pugs around that person.

This is why almost every PvP video (regardless of class) out there these days has a player that's tanking 5+ people while his/her health bar is practically frozen due to all the mitigation & HoTs - after which the player then instagibs those pugs with Dawnbreakers or Incaps.

Buzo wrote: »

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

One big flaw in that theory: I play all classes.

Here's my destro/resto mDK for instance:


...and here's the class with "better defensive capabilities than most classes"...



Perhaps you should just learn how to counter some of the easiest kills that exist in Cyrodiil (cloak spamming NBs) and stop QQ'ing.

@DDuke

The only guy calling these skills a „waste“ is you. I never disregarded the viability of other skills, but the way to access the buffs they provide is mostly not as convenient as on NB.

It is convenient enough. Compare this to what loops a NB has to go through to get Major Mending for instance, which a Warden would get for practically free from Accelerated Growth, or how NB has to slot Dark Cloak for Minor Protection while Templars will get it passively from Spear Wall.


Sorry but this whole passive argument just simply doesn't work.

Buzo wrote: »

Major Evasion is still exclusive to NB on heavy armor builds if someone decides not to opt for Dual wield. How you illustrate things is simply not correct.

...and how many meta heavy armor builds do not run DW right now? Pretty much all of them run Master DW and/or spin2win.

Next patch Quick Cloak will be one of the best sources of Major Expedition and can be used in tandem with Blackrose DW (probably replacing Master DW) to keep 100% Major Expedition/Major Protection up time, to be rotated with Forward Momentum.

Buzo wrote: »

You respond with your magdk to the callout of playing another medium armor toon than stamblade and your youtube channel is flooded with stamblade videos...

My channel isn't flooded with anything unfortunately, I have the time/inclination to make maybe one or two videos per patch and I don't see what that has to do with anything. I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on what my last two videos have been about.

Buzo wrote: »

Your kill statistic has nothing to do with classes survivability but rather with their popularity.

Again, I have no problem to counter cloak.
This topic is not mainly about counters to cloak. This topic is about cloak being too easy and efficent of a source to too many defensive measures.

Actually it has everything to do with their survivability. If it was about popularity, sorcerers would be the first class in that list, especially considering how much I played during the Rune Cage meta


If you don't have problems against cloak, I don't have problems against cloak ... then pardon my french but what the bloody hell is wrong with it then?

You say it's "source to too many defensive measures", yet all it does when countered is proc Shadow Barrier for Resolve/Ward - something you would already proc with Surprise Attack, Fear, Shadow Image.

In other words: it does nothing when countered.


Also... efficient? It costs 3780 magicka for a stamina build - that's almost half the magicka pool a stamina build has in noCP . The most successive cloaks one can cast with base magicka regen is between 3 to 4 assuming you manage to stretch out the duration to maximum 2,8s or dodge roll inbetween cloaks.

As can be seen here (7 tri-stat enchants on that particular build, so magicka pool is at 10 557): https://youtu.be/fIkz-AOoVHA?t=24s


I'm yet to meet a cloak spammer in PvP who would live longer than 10-20 seconds vs my spin2win.

lucky_dutch

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The next patch is very worrying. They remove the passive dodge chance from Major Evasion and also reduce the invisibility frames from dodgeroll which is a huge nerf to all medium armor builds while they are buffing Cloak by nerfing Mark Target (which is a good nerf tho because hard counters are lazy game design). However, it's not difficult to see there this will end: Med armor being once again only viable for Nbs because other classes lack the tools to survive or to adapt while wearing medium armor.
I don't think that medium armor stamnb is super overpowered it's more like bad game design to combine high frontloaded burst with stealth. That's the difference why Cloak on magnb is fine while it's toxic on stamnb. Magnb doesn't have frontloaded burst, in this case Cloak becomes a purely defensive skill. When a stamnb Cloaks it's not only a defensive mechanism, it pushes you into defense and to waste resources because the stamnb can burst most of your health down with a heavy attack and an Incap.

The best solution would be to shift some survivability from Cloak to medium armor and bow builds (maybe buff medium armor instead of nerfing it, like you promised earlier @ZOS ???????). You don't even need to play another class in medium armor, just take the heal morph of Cloak instead and it will be extremely obvious how strong Cloak actually is and how weak medium armor is (you'll get toasted by bleeds, procs, pressure builds and lolassault).

I don't think that your suggestions to Cloak are the right approaches tho: They punish magnb's too hard, it would probably be better to give Cloak some scaling with magicka and spelldmg. However, something needs to happen about it, many Nbs don't want to hear this but otherwise the class will get hit as hard as magsorcs one day and lose their class identity.

You concerns when it comes to stamblades are warranted but remember they only usually get 2-3 casts of cloak before they're out of juice. As you've correctly pointing out though, Magblades are absolutely trash on the PTS so you have nothing to fear from them.

Rukzadlithau

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The next patch is very worrying. They remove the passive dodge chance from Major Evasion and also reduce the invisibility frames from dodgeroll which is a huge nerf to all medium armor builds while they are buffing Cloak by nerfing Mark Target (which is a good nerf tho because hard counters are lazy game design). However, it's not difficult to see there this will end: Med armor being once again only viable for Nbs because other classes lack the tools to survive or to adapt while wearing medium armor.
I don't think that medium armor stamnb is super overpowered it's more like bad game design to combine high frontloaded burst with stealth. That's the difference why Cloak on magnb is fine while it's toxic on stamnb. Magnb doesn't have frontloaded burst, in this case Cloak becomes a purely defensive skill. When a stamnb Cloaks it's not only a defensive mechanism, it pushes you into defense and to waste resources because the stamnb can burst most of your health down with a heavy attack and an Incap.

The best solution would be to shift some survivability from Cloak to medium armor and bow builds (maybe buff medium armor instead of nerfing it, like you promised earlier @ZOS ???????). You don't even need to play another class in medium armor, just take the heal morph of Cloak instead and it will be extremely obvious how strong Cloak actually is and how weak medium armor is (you'll get toasted by bleeds, procs, pressure builds and lolassault).

I don't think that your suggestions to Cloak are the right approaches tho: They punish magnb's too hard, it would probably be better to give Cloak some scaling with magicka and spelldmg. However, something needs to happen about it, many Nbs don't want to hear this but otherwise the class will get hit as hard as magsorcs one day and lose their class identity.

@Ragnaroek93
Thanks for staying constructive as a longterm stamblade player.

I do agree a total rework of the skill would be the better solution, for example cloak could give a significant snare reduction for every piece of light armor worn while it‘s active, to give light armor mag NB‘s better mobility and skill signature. (Similar to the duration increase to Major Ward/Resolve by wearing heavy armor.)

Medium armor really is in a dire place, we both know that as we’ve been loyal to it even during heavy armor meta. I think something the passives should do is extend the „invincibility“ frames before and after a dodge roll instead of reducing their cost, because the game offers too many ways to effectively bring down dodge roll cost already, even in heavy armor. Maybe grant permanent minor expedition instead of the sprint speed/cost and add a flat value of weapon damage.

But as it stands right now an overhaul of the ability is most likely not going to happen. The only thing that can be done is point out where and how the ability overperforms - ofc this is going to be disputed by over sensationalizing players that are too comfortable using said mechanics. But as you said, if nothing is done soon this will only lead to an unhealthy spike in this class’ popularity and eventually lead to an unhealthy adjustment of the class‘ identifying skill.

Ragnaroek93

Buzo wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

The next patch is very worrying. They remove the passive dodge chance from Major Evasion and also reduce the invisibility frames from dodgeroll which is a huge nerf to all medium armor builds while they are buffing Cloak by nerfing Mark Target (which is a good nerf tho because hard counters are lazy game design). However, it's not difficult to see there this will end: Med armor being once again only viable for Nbs because other classes lack the tools to survive or to adapt while wearing medium armor.
I don't think that medium armor stamnb is super overpowered it's more like bad game design to combine high frontloaded burst with stealth. That's the difference why Cloak on magnb is fine while it's toxic on stamnb. Magnb doesn't have frontloaded burst, in this case Cloak becomes a purely defensive skill. When a stamnb Cloaks it's not only a defensive mechanism, it pushes you into defense and to waste resources because the stamnb can burst most of your health down with a heavy attack and an Incap.

The best solution would be to shift some survivability from Cloak to medium armor and bow builds (maybe buff medium armor instead of nerfing it, like you promised earlier @ZOS ???????). You don't even need to play another class in medium armor, just take the heal morph of Cloak instead and it will be extremely obvious how strong Cloak actually is and how weak medium armor is (you'll get toasted by bleeds, procs, pressure builds and lolassault).

I don't think that your suggestions to Cloak are the right approaches tho: They punish magnb's too hard, it would probably be better to give Cloak some scaling with magicka and spelldmg. However, something needs to happen about it, many Nbs don't want to hear this but otherwise the class will get hit as hard as magsorcs one day and lose their class identity.

@Ragnaroek93
Thanks for staying constructive as a longterm stamblade player.

I do agree a total rework of the skill would be the better solution, for example cloak could give a significant snare reduction for every piece of light armor worn while it‘s active, to give light armor mag NB‘s better mobility and skill signature. (Similar to the duration increase to Major Ward/Resolve by wearing heavy armor.)

Medium armor really is in a dire place, we both know that as we’ve been loyal to it even during heavy armor meta. I think something the passives should do is extend the „invincibility“ frames before and after a dodge roll instead of reducing their cost, because the game offers too many ways to effectively bring down dodge roll cost already, even in heavy armor. Maybe grant permanent minor expedition instead of the sprint speed/cost and add a flat value of weapon damage.

But as it stands right now an overhaul of the ability is most likely not going to happen. The only thing that can be done is point out where and how the ability overperforms - ofc this is going to be disputed by over sensationalizing players that are too comfortable using said mechanics. But as you said, if nothing is done soon this will only lead to an unhealthy spike in this class’ popularity and eventually lead to an unhealthy adjustment of the class‘ identifying skill.

Would prefer to give medium armor a bit crit resistance per med armor piece worn and to give Shuffle a small hot effect.

Xvorg

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

You remind me how I used to think about NBs 4 years ago. Someone told me that the best way to dea with NBs is to learn how the class is played. It took me 2 years to figure out how the class is played and in that time I only learnt to play mageblade.

Yes, the defensive buffs NBs have access are a lot, but they cannot and will never have all of them at the same time, unless you resign to use heals or dmg skills. It's one at a time. Yes, they do have access to major expedition, but slotting blur means you are not slotting a CC or a Heal or Mark.

If you die as a mageblade in a 1v1 fight it doesn't mean you are a potato, just means that the other guy knew what he had to do against you. The main problem in this game regarding NBs is the fact that people refuses to learn the class, and thus, they refuse to learn how to deal with them.

Now, to the first point, let's remove cloak, then what will you give NBs as a defensive skill keeping its rogue identity?

Maryal

Cloak is fine and, for a variety of reasons, it needs to stay.

Cloak comes from shadow magic (the basis of most NB abilities). Like it or not, many class abilities and passives are rooted in Elder Scrolls lore. This game has been and still is first and foremost an online mmorpg . Many pve'ers love to get immersed and RP in this game. RP'ing doesn't necessarily mean getting together with a group of people and chatting 'in character' ... it also includes players who get so immersed in the game its as if they actually exist in this virtual world doing the things their toon is doing. It's fun imaginative gameplay. Many pve'ers come to this game after having played one or more single player ES games ... and all ES games are drenched in lore.

That being said, it's important to keep in mind that historically (lore wise) NBs are the sneaky thieves and covert assassins in the ES universe. Their abilities are rooted in shadow magic (teleportation, shadow image, cloak, siphoning abilities, etc.). Of all NB abilities, cloaking is the most iconic NB ability there is - it defines the NB class.

Cloaking is the NBs primary defensive tool, and, as with any defensive tool (for any class), it can also be used offensively.
When a NB cloaks, they imbue themselves in a cloak of invisibility for a brief time. The invisibility allows for a quick escape when they are in trouble, and it also allows them to position themselves near a target to carry out an assassination. NBs are thieves and Cloak is ever so helpful in being able to slip past those pesky guards when on a heist for 'the guild'.

So, let's not forget, all you pvp'ers out there -- we all share our class skills with our pve community (and visa versa) ... meaning we need to take into account the effect any suggested change has on both communities.

Is cloak OP in pvp? No. It is actually fine the way it is. All classes have some basic 'defensive tools' in their class kit ... we all have an ability to heal and we all have one or more abilities that help facilitate our ability to self heal (Templars have their purge, DKs have their wings, Sorcs have their shields as well as their zoom-zoom (LOS), wardens have their netch (spammable purge), spammable shield, wings to facilitate distance (LOS), and some of the best HOTs this game has. What do NBs have? A sub-optimal HOT (especially if you are a stamblade) and cloak. Cloak lets us LOS and suppress dot damage but only so long as we are able to spam it (which isn't very long for stamblades). Without cloak we'd be like sitting ducks.

Side note: the 'new evasion' and NBs -- First of all, we didn't ask for this change and I for one don't even want it. Anyone can mitigate AOE damage via the weapon skill line or by using a specific armor set. Big deal. Blurr should give NBs something unique ... something other than AOE damage mitigation (because you know the pvp meta will shift focus away from AOE damage and more toward single target damage (which includes DOTs). This will result in making slotting 'evasion' (blurr) a wasted bar space in pvp.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Medium armor really is in a dire place, we both know that as we’ve been loyal to it even during heavy armor meta. I think something the passives should do is extend the „invincibility“ frames before and after a dodge roll instead of reducing their cost, because the game offers too many ways to effectively bring down dodge roll cost already, even in heavy armor. Maybe grant permanent minor expedition instead of the sprint speed/cost and add a flat value of weapon damage.

There's always the Crusader set for medium users. Its use might actually be buffed since there is now a hard time cap of 1 second on the dodge roll. Have you tried that out yet to check effectiveness now?

Xvorg

Arkangeloski wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Potl does and the Magicka version same so does curse , sap essence , steeltornado , sweeps , jabs , caltrops , mark target , meteor on impact , volatile armor , detect pot , radiant mage light and morphs , alliance war skill lines have 2 counters to stealth , evil Hunter (bad) but is still one and it prevents you from cloaking like mage light , bombard and packs a snare , arms of relequen not intended , noxious breath and morphs, mark poison(bad), blade cloak both morphs , hurricane and overwhelming surge... If I forget something please quote and add I'm bad with numbers but I think that's 21 not counting morphs. Some of those are better than others but still are legit counters so please do some research and you will see how easy is deal with cloak.

you forgot my favorite one: Inevitable deto. It could have a lower cast time though, but it's great.

When cloak used to purge it was even better but people didn't know how to use it. Instead of asking for a removal of purge, they could have asked for a faster cast time

BalticBlues

Maryal wrote: »

Is cloak OP in pvp? No.

LOL. Cloak is the most OP skill of the entire game.
And everybody knows this.
Therefore about 60-80% of PvP consists of NB

In PvE, with Cloak you bypass almost all gameplay mechanisms in Solo play.
In PvP, with Cloak you almost play in god-mode, because
- you decide where to start a fight (cloak until you get there)
- you decide when to start a fight (cloak until it is the right time)
- you decide who will be attacked (cloak until your victim is weak)
- you decide when to end a fight (cloak when you screw even godmode up)

Playing my NB is easy-mode, especially in Imperial Sewers. The only worthy foes are Sorcs because of their shields, mobility and versatility. But now that Sorcs are nerfed into the ground, the last worthy foes also will be gone...

idk

Buzo wrote: »

@idk

There‘s no suggestion to fix the DBoS issue.
I‘m aware that this is how ZOS wants cloak to work and stated the reason why. What I‘m saying is: because it works this way and enforces such occasions it offers too much.

The same issue also occurs on other abilities that are supposed to uncloak when they hit simoultaneously as the NB enters invisibility, such as the 1. tick of WoE, a hit of Deep Fissure etc.

The health desynch is also not always true, this should be clear as a cc component also vanishes and is not incorrectly displayed by client side, rather it just never happened.

What I meant by: „Any ability casted during cloak invisibility should unveil the nightblade“ is that NB‘s should not be able to cast skills during cloak invisibility and stay invisible. Thanks for pointing out this is worded bad, I will edit accordingly.

So you use DBoS as an example but you are not concerned about fixing the known issue? Odd.

The health desync has been demonstrated, with DBoS and the CC component did not occur. So your claim that it is not always true does not hold water. Then again, you are not interested in fixing the issue with DBoS.

And again, your attempt to clarify "any ability" would really be resolved by fixing the issue with DBoS, but that is not what you are suggesting.

The thing is, to solve the issue one must figure out what the issue is, what is causing it and then fix it. Again, per your comments, this is not about fixing DBoS but doing a workaround which inherently would be flawed.

That is my point. You are going in the wrong direction.

leepalmer95

The skill is fine, just slot one of the dozens of counters to it.

The forced miss on db isn't a cloak problem, its a DB problem.

leepalmer95

BalticBlues wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Is cloak OP in pvp? No.

LOL. Cloak is the most OP skill of the entire game.
And everybody knows this.
Therefore about 60-80% of PvP consists of NB

In PvE, with Cloak you bypass almost all gameplay mechanisms in Solo play.
In PvP, with Cloak you almost play in god-mode, because
- you decide where to start a fight (cloak until you get there)
- you decide when to start a fight (cloak until it is the right time)
- you decide who will be attacked (cloak until your victim is weak)
- you decide when to end a fight (cloak when you screw even godmode up)

Playing my NB is easy-mode, especially in Imperial Sewers. The only worthy foes are Sorcs because of their shields, mobility and versatility. But now that Sorcs are nerfed into the ground, the last worthy foes also will be gone...

Oh look another guy claiming cloak is godlike with another made up fact about player % that has absolutely no proof.

Solo play pve is easy anyway, cloaking here doesn't mean the skill is OP at all, you can easily sneak past most of the mobs you can cloak past.

You cannot 'cloak until you get there' at all even mag nb's can't really do this. Cloak only lets you get an advantage over people who don't see you first, sneak does the same thing.

You're 2nd point is pretty much the same as your first.

Cloak until you victim is weak? That wont achieve anything unless you are just sitting there hoping someone else nearly kills them for you, Can't everyone just stand there in sneak and do this though?

Not at all, good players will run one of the many counters to cloak and i kill nb's all the time who rely on cloak far too much and become easy kills.

Oh you think mag sorc's are op... shows what tier of player you are i guess.

Why do threads like these exist lmao.

Arkangeloski

I'm getting bor

BalticBlues wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Is cloak OP in pvp? No.

LOL. Cloak is the most OP skill of the entire game.
And everybody knows this.
Therefore about 60-80% of PvP consists of NB

In PvE, with Cloak you bypass almost all gameplay mechanisms in Solo play.
In PvP, with Cloak you almost play in god-mode, because
- you decide where to start a fight (cloak until you get there)
- you decide when to start a fight (cloak until it is the right time)
- you decide who will be attacked (cloak until your victim is weak)
- you decide when to end a fight (cloak when you screw even godmode up)

Playing my NB is easy-mode, especially in Imperial Sewers. The only worthy foes are Sorcs because of their shields, mobility and versatility. But now that Sorcs are nerfed into the ground, the last worthy foes also will be gone...

In what platform are you in? so I can demonstrate how easily I will negate your cloak and give you a hard time.

Xvorg

Shatter soul is another counter to cloak, maybe better that Soul assault.

Being a skill that is channeled 1 second less that SA and having a tooltip which is 75% dmg of SA means that you deliver almost all the dmg during the channel. The NB has just 0.5 secs to react to the skill. If paired with a stun, it means teh NB is forced to go defensive without having the chance to cloak. SA on the other hand gives them a window to cloak, heal, and counterattack.

But people likes big numbers, and they use SA (which has weaker ticks). Then they complain about the NB killing them.

usmcjdking

Aa cloak fade time isn't out of the realm of balance.

lassitershawn

Really never understood all the cloak hate. Never found it hard to counter. On sorc I have the option to streak thru them + curse reveals, templar has jabs and massive AoE circle, other NBs have mark, DKs volatile armor and I guess fire breath, all stam has access to caltrops and steelnado, all mag has access to very strong mag+spell power+ detect pots, etc. It is a strong defensive skill but a strong defensive skill and strong skills in general is something every class should have access to imo. Cloak seems strong but not op. Kind of like the stun heartlessly ripped off cfrags but alas...

Thogard

Solariken wrote: »

I think suppressing heals only would be a good place to start instead of all regen.

Yes! Either this or make cloak bashable. NBs can reset the fight too easily, and trying to chase them down with Stam spammables just means that when they do re-engage, they’re at full Stam and the chaser is at 0.

DDuke wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

Oh boy... the good old "but NBs get those things from a passive and don't need to waste a skill slot!" argument again.

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"? Hurricane? Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)? Channeled Focus?

None of these are a "waste of a skill slot" - if anything the Major Ward/Resolve is a waste of a passive.


Also, are you next going to complain about Templars getting passive Minor Protection by using Aedric Spear abilities next patch? Much stronger buff than Major Ward/Resolve too.

Buzo wrote: »

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

I see people do just as well on stam sorc, stam warden, stamplar etc.

Major Evasion (no longer unique to stamblades when it comes to heavy armor builds next patch) is one of the reasons why heavy stamblade is competitive, Incap & Assassin's Will being the other reasons.

Other classes get their own good stuff (like Major Mending+more heals on stam warden, Hurricane & Implosion on stam sorc etc).


Cloak, or atleast the invisibility morph, doesn't even exist in this equation - it's a waste of a skill slot for builds that aim to take dmg in order to proc their sets.

The only thing that's been proven is that you have no idea how theorycrafting works.

Buzo wrote: »

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

Any class in a heavy armor meta build has better defensive capabilites than most of the random pugs around that person.

This is why almost every PvP video (regardless of class) out there these days has a player that's tanking 5+ people while his/her health bar is practically frozen due to all the mitigation & HoTs - after which the player then instagibs those pugs with Dawnbreakers or Incaps.

Buzo wrote: »

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

One big flaw in that theory: I play all classes.

Here's my destro/resto mDK for instance:


...and here's the class with "better defensive capabilities than most classes"...



Perhaps you should just learn how to counter some of the easiest kills that exist in Cyrodiil (cloak spamming NBs) and stop QQ'ing.

You are confusing the most played class for the easiest to kill class.

Thogard

leepalmer95 wrote: »

The skill is fine, just slot one of the dozens of counters to it.

The forced miss on db isn't a cloak problem, its a DB problem.

It’s both. There’s a missed DB problem, but there’s also a whole separate problem unique to cloak. The cloak problem is a health desync though.

Rukzadlithau

idk wrote: »

So you use DBoS as an example but you are not concerned about fixing the known issue? Odd.

The health desync has been demonstrated, with DBoS and the CC component did not occur. So your claim that it is not always true does not hold water. Then again, you are not interested in fixing the issue with DBoS.

And again, your attempt to clarify "any ability" would really be resolved by fixing the issue with DBoS, but that is not what you are suggesting.

The thing is, to solve the issue one must figure out what the issue is, what is causing it and then fix it. Again, per your comments, this is not about fixing DBoS but doing a workaround which inherently would be flawed.

That is my point. You are going in the wrong direction.

@idk
The known issue with DBoS occurs because it has a target check that collides with a line of sight check. I guess the reason for this is, so that some of it’s effects can’t potentially ignore terrain/obstacles. You see this happen with other AoE abilities that only have a line of sight check.

The „force miss“ on Shadowy Disguise fails both of these checks.
The force miss does that to many other skills too.
The force miss is there because ZOS didn‘t have another conclusion to fix the uncloaking problem.
The force miss is now here to stay, because otherwise the skill would be rendered „useless“ again.

This is not me „going into the wrong direction“, this is me being realistic about how these developers fix and leave things. This is me proposing adjustments, knowing that this new component of the skill will not change any time soon.

I mentioned other examples than DBoS too. Opposed to what you’re trying to say, this is not an outcry to fix DBoS or abilities that can be denied the same way. It‘s about what cloak offers ontop of this functionality that make it perform too well in PvP.

DDuke

Thogard wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I think suppressing heals only would be a good place to start instead of all regen.

Yes! Either this or make cloak bashable. NBs can reset the fight too easily, and trying to chase them down with Stam spammables just means that when they do re-engage, they’re at full Stam and the chaser is at 0.

DDuke wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

Oh boy... the good old "but NBs get those things from a passive and don't need to waste a skill slot!" argument again.

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"? Hurricane? Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)? Channeled Focus?

None of these are a "waste of a skill slot" - if anything the Major Ward/Resolve is a waste of a passive.


Also, are you next going to complain about Templars getting passive Minor Protection by using Aedric Spear abilities next patch? Much stronger buff than Major Ward/Resolve too.

Buzo wrote: »

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

I see people do just as well on stam sorc, stam warden, stamplar etc.

Major Evasion (no longer unique to stamblades when it comes to heavy armor builds next patch) is one of the reasons why heavy stamblade is competitive, Incap & Assassin's Will being the other reasons.

Other classes get their own good stuff (like Major Mending+more heals on stam warden, Hurricane & Implosion on stam sorc etc).


Cloak, or atleast the invisibility morph, doesn't even exist in this equation - it's a waste of a skill slot for builds that aim to take dmg in order to proc their sets.

The only thing that's been proven is that you have no idea how theorycrafting works.

Buzo wrote: »

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

Any class in a heavy armor meta build has better defensive capabilites than most of the random pugs around that person.

This is why almost every PvP video (regardless of class) out there these days has a player that's tanking 5+ people while his/her health bar is practically frozen due to all the mitigation & HoTs - after which the player then instagibs those pugs with Dawnbreakers or Incaps.

Buzo wrote: »

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

One big flaw in that theory: I play all classes.

Here's my destro/resto mDK for instance:


...and here's the class with "better defensive capabilities than most classes"...



Perhaps you should just learn how to counter some of the easiest kills that exist in Cyrodiil (cloak spamming NBs) and stop QQ'ing.

You are confusing the most played class for the easiest to kill class.

Here's another character that doesn't run spin2win (bowblade)


:thinking:

By that logic Sorcs just became the most played class.

...and my mDK:


NB again the most killed class (by a really wide margin too btw), but that's because they're so easy to kill when you build for it. Full transparency: many of those mDK stamblade kills are from the undodgeable Power Lash days, but they're still easy enough to deal with when you slot Overwhelming to mess up their cloaks.


I think part of it is popularity, but there's also no denying that DKs, Templars & Wardens tend to build much tankier and harder to kill than squishy NBs and Sorcs that you can pretty much one shot whenever their defenses are low.


Would be nice to know some official statistics so people don't get tied up in these arguments.

I know GW2 & WoW for example keep track of what is the most popular class:
https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/global-stats/classes
https://gw2armory.com/statistics

starkerealm

leepalmer95 wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Is cloak OP in pvp? No.

LOL. Cloak is the most OP skill of the entire game.
And everybody knows this.
Therefore about 60-80% of PvP consists of NB

In PvE, with Cloak you bypass almost all gameplay mechanisms in Solo play.
In PvP, with Cloak you almost play in god-mode, because
- you decide where to start a fight (cloak until you get there)
- you decide when to start a fight (cloak until it is the right time)
- you decide who will be attacked (cloak until your victim is weak)
- you decide when to end a fight (cloak when you screw even godmode up)

Playing my NB is easy-mode, especially in Imperial Sewers. The only worthy foes are Sorcs because of their shields, mobility and versatility. But now that Sorcs are nerfed into the ground, the last worthy foes also will be gone...

Oh look another guy claiming cloak is godlike with another made up fact about player % that has absolutely no proof.

Not just no proof. Utterly comical if you've ever spent much time in PvP. *Continues spamming Mage's Wrath on everything that moves.*

So, my entirely unscientific system of watching which kill achievements tick off first... I'm inclined to say that the overall PvP balance between the base four classes is pretty even, with the Wardens trailing behind. (I'm guessing that's because they're a premium purchase. Same thing's true of Imperial kills.) Of course, this does assume I kill everyone I meet... which... yeah, actually that seems like a safe assumption. (At least on characters I'm comfortable with.)

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Solo play pve is easy anyway, cloaking here doesn't mean the skill is OP at all, you can easily sneak past most of the mobs you can cloak past.

Really minor nitpick, in tight corridors, like delves, you can usually ghost past things using cloak far more easily than sneaking. But, yeah, basically correct.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You cannot 'cloak until you get there' at all even mag nb's can't really do this. Cloak only lets you get an advantage over people who don't see you first, sneak does the same thing.

You're 2nd point is pretty much the same as your first.

Cloak until you victim is weak? That wont achieve anything unless you are just sitting there hoping someone else nearly kills them for you, Can't everyone just stand there in sneak and do this though?

Not at all, good players will run one of the many counters to cloak and i kill nb's all the time who rely on cloak far too much and become easy kills.

Yep. Same. It's actually easier to counterhunt a NB with a Stamblade, simply because the in class tools make your life easier.

That said, Haunting Curse and Mage's Wrath are pretty amusing ways to deal with someone trying to use cloak to escape.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Oh you think mag sorc's are op... shows what tier of player you are i guess.

Why do threads like these exist lmao.

Because it's easier to complain than to L2P.

Really, threads like this because it's easier.

ku5h

Why not just give it a Streak treatment?! StamNBs wont be able to abuse it with little to none investment to mag and magBlades will be able to keep it up, but will drain as fast as Sorcs do when spaming.
I think it would be fair, even though when next patch hits I'll probably play some form of NB, if i'll play at all.

starkerealm

ku5h wrote: »

Why not just give it a Streak treatment?! StamNBs wont be able to abuse it with little to none investment to mag and magBlades will be able to keep it up, but will drain as fast as Sorcs do when spaming.
I think it would be fair, even though when next patch hits I'll probably play some form of NB, if i'll play at all.

Because it's easier to counterplay against cloak than streak.

Especially easier than counterplay against Bolt Escape.