Shadowy Disguise (Cloak) Adjustment

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Since the introduction of the short „force miss“ time frame when the skill is casted, it offers too much.

This force miss can negate damage/control components of skills, that are supposed to work reliably as counter to cloak, entierly.

A good example is Dawnbreaker of Smiting: When DBoS is casted about simoultaneously as cloak it „misses“ - no damage, no cc, just vanished.

While I think this mechanic is absurd and totally op, I‘m aware this was ZOS‘ only option to the uncloaking problematic the skill suffered from when an attack registered right before you went invisible and thus pulled you out of invisibility.

What I propose:

The skill should surpress any type of regeneration while it‘s active, as it already surpresses dots.
Nightblades should not be able to retain invisibility while casting any ability during Shadowy Disguise, except Shadowy Disguise.

/e
@DDuke also has a good proposal, ofc this should not be in conjunction with what I suggested:

DDuke wrote: »

I'd welcome a cooldown (similar to interrupting cast/channel, locks you out of using the skill again for a few seconds) on cloak if you get revealed by damage while in cloak.

This would reward skillful play by both the opponent and the NB and casting Cloak at the right time would matter, while cheesy zero dmg cloak spammers with 3k mag regen who abuse the skill to force misses on projectiles and what not wouldn't be a thing anymore.

kypranb14_ESO · October 2018

I saw a video on this, I believe it still deals it's damage, and causes a health desync. I could be wrong though.

brandonv516 · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Since the introduction of the short „force miss“ time frame when the skill is casted, it offers too much.
This force miss can negate damage/control components of skills, that are supposed to work reliably as counter to cloak, entierly.
A good example is Dawnbreaker of Smiting: When DBoS is casted about simoultaneously as cloak it „misses“ - no damage, no cc, just vanished.

While I think this mechanic is absurd and totally op, I‘m aware this was ZOS‘ only option to the uncloaking problematic the skill suffered from when an attack registered right before you went invisible and thus pulled you out of invisibility.

What I propose:
The skill should surpress any type of regeneration while it‘s active, as it already surpresses dots.

Any ability casted during cloak invisibility should unveil the nightblade.

With the force miss mechanic there should be more occasional counters to cloak, for example a Meteor should not simply vanish. Potl explosions should break it just as Haunting Curse, Skoria procs should uncloak etc.

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Xvorg · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Hyzock · October 2018

First of all, when you use a dawnbreaker on a nb in cloak, the game tells you it misses while it actually hits and desyncs the nb's health.

And are you seriously asking for a streak nerf? The skill of the recently heavily nerfed sorcs that increases in cost by 50% every time it is spammed? Using streak more than 3 times in a row is basically suicide because of the cost and any stam build with a source of major expedition can keep up anyway.

On the cloak changes you proposed:

The first one would destroy nb sustain, not hard to see why.
The second one would just make nb a lot clunkier, because they mostly just buff up in cloak. I suppose you could argue about rally, but if that decloaked you, I'd assume nbs would just stay in cloak longer while a vigor used right before cloak keeps ticking? Anyway, it would just make everything clunkier and combat slower.
The third one kinda confuses me, meteor still hits when a nb enters cloak? Do you suggest nbs not being able to cloak while a meteor is on them? And the last bit confuses me as both curse and potl pull a nb out of cloak.

I guess we could conclude here that you don't really know what you're talking about, so all in all this is a pretty pointless thread.

Gilvoth · October 2018

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

@Xvorg

It‘s not like my suggested changes render the ability useless.
Also don‘t Nightblades get a huge boon to survivability with the supposed Major Evasion changes already (only class that has this buff natively)?

brandonv516 · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Disagree. It should be treated the same.

I literally just got my cloak broken by a PotL hours ago. It still happens and is likely intended similar to Curse.

It's not much effort to cast an AoE more than once. These "bleeding dancing queens" don't seem to have an issue.

The "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" is what you talked about - I gave it a title. Nerf dodge roll, it too can negate the damage!

You are biased because it's something you cannot overcome.

I've died countless times to Nightblades using it but I still defend it because it has counters that you refuse to try.

usmcjdking · October 2018

The forced misses are not problematic IMO. The forced misses while a target is revealed via Piercing Mark, Detect Pot - the incredibly long delay in reveal with Evil Hunter and Mage Light and the garbage that is called Sentry/Way of Air/Flare are far more problematic.

rfennell_ESO · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Since the introduction of the short „force miss“ time frame when the skill is casted, it offers too much.
This force miss can negate damage/control components of skills, that are supposed to work reliably as counter to cloak, entierly.
A good example is Dawnbreaker of Smiting: When DBoS is casted about simoultaneously as cloak it „misses“ - no damage, no cc, just vanished.

While I think this mechanic is absurd and totally op, I‘m aware this was ZOS‘ only option to the uncloaking problematic the skill suffered from when an attack registered right before you went invisible and thus pulled you out of invisibility.

What I propose:
The skill should surpress any type of regeneration while it‘s active, as it already surpresses dots.

Any ability casted during cloak invisibility should unveil the nightblade.

With the force miss mechanic there should be more occasional counters to cloak, for example a Meteor should not simply vanish. Potl explosions should break it just as Haunting Curse, Skoria procs should uncloak etc.

Sorry they changed shields.

Obviously, amirite?

Xvorg · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@Xvorg

It‘s not like my suggested changes render the ability useless.
Also don‘t Nightblades get a huge boon to survivability with the supposed Major Evasion changes already (only class that has this buff natively)?

Cloak is a "binary" ability. If you touch it or it becomes OP, or it becomes useless. I think this is the most balanced version of the skill. It doesn't purges (as the original dark cloak) neither is the bugged skill that was broken by almost anything some years ago.

Just leave it that way.

A good tip against NBs, immedialetly after you hear a dmg cue outta nowhere, block and use a stun.

DDuke · October 2018

Oh yeah, let's nerf cloak - so "overpowered"

https://youtu.be/fIkz-AOoVHA

Here's a list of things that counter cloak:
Steel Tornado
Detection Pots/Poisons
Bombard/Acid Spray
Piercing Mark
Curse
POTL (yes, it breaks cloak)
DBOS (health desyncs occur sometimes, but it always deals damage if it lands) - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/415646/vid-thogard-gilliam-find-your-missing-and-cloaked-dawnbreakers/p1
Impulse (Elemental Ring is really strong undodgeable/uncloakable ability in Murkmire)
WoE
...literally any AoE.

If you can't counter it, that's on you. Slot a skill that helps you deal with it or use detection potions (they exist for a reason).

The only thing they could do (apart from completely reworking stealth) to make things more fair for builds that have limited counters (like mDK with only Volatile Armor) would be adding a 4s cooldown to casting cloak if you're revealed by damage (similar to how interrupting casts/channels works).

That rewards skillful use of it (and successful reveals, i.e. skill), while it'd punish people who abuse it with cheesy 3k mag regen builds (that deal zero damage) with more heal over times than the AoEs used to reveal deal damage.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

Hyzock wrote: »

First of all, when you use a dawnbreaker on a nb in cloak, the game tells you it misses while it actually hits and desyncs the nb's health.

And are you seriously asking for a streak nerf? The skill of the recently heavily nerfed sorcs that increases in cost by 50% every time it is spammed? Using streak more than 3 times in a row is basically suicide because of the cost and any stam build with a source of major expedition can keep up anyway.

On the cloak changes you proposed:
The first one would destroy nb sustain, not hard to see why.

The second one would just make nb a lot clunkier, because they mostly just buff up in cloak. I suppose you could argue about rally, but if that decloaked you, I'd assume nbs would just stay in cloak longer while a vigor used right before cloak keeps ticking? Anyway, it would just make everything clunkier and combat slower.

The third one kinda confuses me, meteor still hits when a nb enters cloak? Do you suggest nbs not being able to cloak while a meteor is on them? And the last bit confuses me as both curse and potl pull a nb out of cloak.

I guess we could conclude here that you don't really know what you're talking about, so all in all this is a pretty pointless thread.

I never asked for a Streak nerf, no clue where you‘re coming from. Maybe some trauma you endured when the Magsorc Runecage meta ended idk.

NB having the natively highest sustain that is furtherly buffed with the coming Murkmire changes should be toned down. Having the ability to offensively sustain absurdly, and defensively too with one of the strongest defensive skills is simply not healthy for balance. The proposed change not only affects the sustainability of the skill but also the op use of defensive sets with it, such as Trollking for example.

„The second one“ is tied right to the first one. Why should you be able to cast through an entire buff rotation during one of the strongest defensive mechanisms, while you regenerate, heal, potentially have Trollking up and easylie sustain the same mechanism wether it‘s your main or secondary resource. Combat speed is not affected by that, only easy access to overperformance.

PotL explosions do not uncloak or damage a NB inside of cloak the last time I checked, maybe I‘m wrong. Apologies if so.
By Meteor I meant the proc of Skoria, I got sloppy on the write up, but if it disvalidates what I‘m saying to you it‘s okay for me too.

I guess you are now playing Nightblade, so pretty pointless to get a constructive opinion from you.

brandonv516 · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

Hyzock wrote: »

First of all, when you use a dawnbreaker on a nb in cloak, the game tells you it misses while it actually hits and desyncs the nb's health.

And are you seriously asking for a streak nerf? The skill of the recently heavily nerfed sorcs that increases in cost by 50% every time it is spammed? Using streak more than 3 times in a row is basically suicide because of the cost and any stam build with a source of major expedition can keep up anyway.

On the cloak changes you proposed:
The first one would destroy nb sustain, not hard to see why.

The second one would just make nb a lot clunkier, because they mostly just buff up in cloak. I suppose you could argue about rally, but if that decloaked you, I'd assume nbs would just stay in cloak longer while a vigor used right before cloak keeps ticking? Anyway, it would just make everything clunkier and combat slower.

The third one kinda confuses me, meteor still hits when a nb enters cloak? Do you suggest nbs not being able to cloak while a meteor is on them? And the last bit confuses me as both curse and potl pull a nb out of cloak.

I guess we could conclude here that you don't really know what you're talking about, so all in all this is a pretty pointless thread.

I never asked for a Streak nerf, no clue where you‘re coming from. Maybe some trauma you endured when the Magsorc Runecage meta ended idk.

NB having the natively highest sustain that is furtherly buffed with the coming Murkmire changes should be toned down. Having the ability to offensively sustain absurdly, and defensively too with one of the strongest defensive skills is simply not healthy for balance. The proposed change not only affects the sustainability of the skill but also the op use of defensive sets with it, such as Trollking for example.

„The second one“ is tied right to the first one. Why should you be able to cast through an entire buff rotation during one of the strongest defensive mechanisms, while you regenerate, heal, potentially have Trollking up and easylie sustain the same mechanism wether it‘s your main or secondary resource. Combat speed is not affected by that, only easy access to overperformance.

PotL explosions do not uncloak or damage a NB inside of cloak the last time I checked, maybe I‘m wrong. Apologies if so.
By Meteor I meant the proc of Skoria, I got sloppy on the write up, but if it disvalidates what I‘m saying to you it‘s okay for me too.

I guess you are now playing Nightblade, so pretty pointless to get a constructive opinion from you.

You have a whopping 2.5 seconds of cloak time to cast that entire buff rotation that requires 1s cast time each.

Another reason I don't like your idea (no regeneration during cloak) is that it completely ruins sets like Lich for Magblade.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

@DDuke
I‘ve beaten you in every encounter we had on PC/EU on your nightblade. So why you‘re getting at me with „If you can‘t counter it, that‘s on you“ is beyond me. Doing a writeup of what is a counter to cloak as a defensive ability is as silly as if I‘d point out that every damage ability is a counter to almost every other defensive ability in the game and cloak reduces that to your mentioned skills. Detect potions also mean sacrifices and are counterable with the mobility a Nightblade can achieve. Cloak still has an opportunity counter to it‘s counters with the force miss, so thats where I‘m coming from.

If you‘d settle your bias because op Stamblade is what made ur special snowflake builds half viable you‘d actually see what I‘m saying. I have no trouble countering cloak on my builds.

What I‘m saying is: The ability is too easy and efficent of an access for too many defensive favours.

DDuke · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke
I‘ve beaten you in every encounter we had on PC/EU on your nightblade. So why you‘re getting at me with „If you can‘t counter it, that‘s on you“ is beyond me. Doing a writeup of what is a counter to cloak as a defensive ability is as silly as if I‘d point out that every damage ability is a counter to almost every other defensive ability in the game and cloak reduces that to your mentioned skills. Detect potions also mean sacrifices and are counterable with the mobility a Nightblade can achieve. Cloak still has an opportunity counter to it‘s counters with the force miss, so thats where I‘m coming from.

If you‘d settle your bias because op Stamblade is what made ur special snowflake builds half viable you‘d actually see what I‘m saying. I have no trouble countering cloak on my builds.

What I‘m saying is: The ability is too easy and efficent of an access for too many defensive favours.

Lmao. I wasn't going to bring this up, but last I recall I one shot your heavy armor tank warden (or was it a stamplar?) in Vivec... 5 months ago? After which I received numerous hate whispers & QQ about NB being "op" as well as a request for a "duel" (against a medium armor bow build

).

Haven't seen your trash build since then, must've gone back to the drawing board.

Fact of the matter is that most NB builds these days don't even run cloak as it doesn't synergize with the usual 7th Legion+Fury+TK meta builds.

I.e. unkillable tank builds, which are the actual *** problem in this game.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

brandonv516 wrote: »

You have a whopping 2.5 seconds of cloak time to cast that entire buff rotation that requires 1s cast time each.

Another reason I don't like your idea (no regeneration during cloak) is that it completely ruins sets like Lich for Magblade.

Sry I forgot the skill can‘t be casted again to extend this window, is extremely expensive and unsustainable. Also I hallucinated about players doing this and having above average success with that the last 5 patches.

And having regeneration up while being almost untouchable and surpressing unlimited dots is exactly the problem.

brandonv516 · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

You have a whopping 2.5 seconds of cloak time to cast that entire buff rotation that requires 1s cast time each.

Another reason I don't like your idea (no regeneration during cloak) is that it completely ruins sets like Lich for Magblade.

Sry I forgot the skill can‘t be casted again to extend this window, is extremely expensive and unsustainable. Also I hallucinated about players doing this and having above average success with that the last 5 patches.

And having regeneration up while being almost untouchable and surpressing unlimited dots is exactly the problem.

It can be expensive. Players are successful because some still haven't adapted - you seem to be one of them.

Your bias is the problem and I'm done in your silly thread. Good luck.

Solariken · October 2018

I think suppressing heals only would be a good place to start instead of all regen.

Maryal · October 2018

click bait

MacCait · October 2018

OMFG another nerf Shadow thread... facepalm.

Amdar_Godkiller · October 2018

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

DDuke · October 2018

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.

Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).

It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.

NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Amdar_Godkiller · October 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Ok, nerf cloak, and in turn, what do you give to NBs to make them more survivable?

Because people here is quite irresponsible, they call for nerfs, but never give anything in turn.

Well that's because they are already the only class with access to every single defensive buff in the game and every single healing buff in the game, while being the only class capable of reaching the speed cap without sprinting, while being the class that scales best with CP (power creep), and the only class that can use the hardest 2 CCs in the game to break out of. Let's be fair, if you die as a magblade and you weren't outnumbered at least 5 to 1, then you are a scrub potato not worth the server lag you create.

Nghtblades have the best defenses in the game, and if cloak was completely removed from the game, they'd still be top 2 at worst.

What are you even on about? Defensively NB is one of the weakest classes in the game, if not the weakest (when the main defensive skill gets countered).

Every class in the game has access to the Major Ward/Resolve (Ice Fortress, Volatile Armor, Hurricane, Channeled Focus), Minor Protection (Psijic Ulti, Ice Fortress, Spear Wall), Minor Maim (Warden Frost Damage, Low Slash, Choking Talons, Shadowrend).

The difference is that those other classes also get much more heals from their respective toolkits and even buffs like Major Mending without having to slot resto staff & perform a full heavy attack.

Also last I checked NBs weren't any faster than other people, but rather ran at the speed cap like everyone else in the Swift+Speed Pot+Forward Momentum Fury 7th TK meta.

Nor do they have any secret modifiers to scale better with CPs than other classes (are you being serious right now?).

It just sounds to me like you decided to throw a bunch of hyperboles & unverified statements at the wall and see what sticks.

I'm quite surprised none of it sticks, usually people point out atleast something factual when complaining about NBs.

NB is a high burst class (though this will get more difficult with the new delay on Grim Focus) that when it comes to defense (and offense) gets carried by Troll King/7th & Fury just like every other meta build out there.

So yes, it'd still be good even without cloak (most actually don't even use the invisibility morph anymore...) - in those overperforming heavy armor builds. Go play it in medium & unslot cloak, let me know how that works out for you...

Yeah, but they aren't at all. Cloak is a defensive skill. Most players would argue it's the best.

While most classes have access to resolve and ward, only nightblade gets it passively, and no other class is able to active two skills and get major ward, resolve, and evasion along with minor ward and resolve. Nightblade can do it while spamming surprise attack.

Major protection, minor protection, major and minor vitality and minor mending. Mag has multiple heals that allow them to deal damage while healing and stam has access to vigor and rally, and doesn't really need any more.

They have the best sustain of any class for 2 years running, so not only do they have great defensive and healing buffs, but they don't have sacrifice damage as a result and ithey don't really run out of resources easily.

They are the only class at the speed cap while crouching! I have another post about it up currently.

NB's do have fewer heals, and thank god they do or this game would be unplayable for every other class.

I've said nothing that isn't factual.

Rukzadlithau · October 2018

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

arkansas_ESO · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

[*] With the force miss mechanic there should be more occasional counters to cloak, for example a Meteor should not simply vanish. Potl explosions should break it just as Haunting Curse, Skoria procs should uncloak etc.

Unless they've changed something recently, everything you've just listed will pull a Nightblade out of Cloak once they begin to do damage. If they're not pulling NBs out, then that's a bug and should be fixed, and doesn't warrant further nerfing a skill.

DDuke · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

@DDuke

The way NB has access to Major Ward/Resolve over passives and can keep it up either on offense or defense with skills that have another purpose is what makes it outstand to other classes already. The next thing is, NB can access most of these wanted buffs you mentioned over skills that are desired in the layout anyways. The way you illustrate the universal accessability to these buffs doesn‘t work as easy on other classes. They have to give up a skillslot for Major Ward/Resolve already or build accordingly for the mentioned buffs.

Oh boy... the good old "but NBs get those things from a passive and don't need to waste a skill slot!" argument again.

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"? Hurricane? Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)? Channeled Focus?

None of these are a "waste of a skill slot" - if anything the Major Ward/Resolve is a waste of a passive.

Also, are you next going to complain about Templars getting passive Minor Protection by using Aedric Spear abilities next patch? Much stronger buff than Major Ward/Resolve too.

Buzo wrote: »

NB has built in buff-management, strong permanent passives, and some of the most powerful skills in the game that provide: heavy attack sustain on blocking targets, unblockable cc, best defile, real empower, native Major Evasion etc. Thus your mentioned „op“ builds will almost always perform best on a NB. This is proven in PvE and PvP for quite some time now.

I see people do just as well on stam sorc, stam warden, stamplar etc.

Major Evasion (no longer unique to stamblades when it comes to heavy armor builds next patch) is one of the reasons why heavy stamblade is competitive, Incap & Assassin's Will being the other reasons.

Other classes get their own good stuff (like Major Mending+more heals on stam warden, Hurricane & Implosion on stam sorc etc).

Cloak, or atleast the invisibility morph, doesn't even exist in this equation - it's a waste of a skill slot for builds that aim to take dmg in order to proc their sets.

The only thing that's been proven is that you have no idea how theorycrafting works.

Buzo wrote: »

You also contradict yourself in your first and last paragraph. NB, regardless of armor type, still has better defensive capabilities than most classes - even without shadowy disguise. Go play another stam toon in medium, let us know how that works out for you...

Any class in a heavy armor meta build has better defensive capabilites than most of the random pugs around that person.

This is why almost every PvP video (regardless of class) out there these days has a player that's tanking 5+ people while his/her health bar is practically frozen due to all the mitigation & HoTs - after which the player then instagibs those pugs with Dawnbreakers or Incaps.

Buzo wrote: »

You campaign for an op class that made your innovative but less effective builds work, and now you‘re consumed by the illusion your builds are the reason you have success and not the class.

One big flaw in that theory: I play all classes.

Here's my destro/resto mDK for instance:

...and here's the class with "better defensive capabilities than most classes"...

Perhaps you should just learn how to counter some of the easiest kills that exist in Cyrodiil (cloak spamming NBs) and stop QQ'ing.

Amdar_Godkiller · October 2018

Since when has Volatile Armor been a "waste of a skill slot"?

See now I know you don't PVP, it was *** for some time. It's okay for mag dks now. not useful compared to other mag drops for stam dks

hurricane

Kind of proves the opposite point when you cite the only stam morph stamsorcs have. That being said sorcs and NBs are the two classes with this kind of design. sorcs also have great damage skills that inexplicably provide unrelated buffs, healing, or defensive capabilities.

Meanwhile Warden's get falcons swiftness nerfed, a skill that was already less than worthless when it began requiring double barring in order to receive minor berserk all the time. It literally requires twice as many slots as your merciless resolve, which also inexplicably causes super high damage.

Ice Fortress (even that one gets you 24s of Minor Protection and buffs up allies)?

This doubly proves his point, as the skill provides a single kind of benefit and requires sacrificing useful options to slot. It gets slotted on either of my wardens maybe 15% of the time, because my stam warden needs shimmering, one of the green balance skills, and deceptive predator. It cost 30% movement speed and 5% dodge chance, a useful hot, or the only skill that keeps wardens from being squishier than every other class, so can't really justify it.

Rune Focus is OP on magplar though.

Mystrius_Archaion · October 2018

They can't fix all these edge cases of perfect timing with cloak without completely rewriting cloak and combat itself in this game.
It just is not going to happen.

Cloak has its counters, including such high cost. Even if they do make your ultimate "miss" then they are still going to die shortly after because they can't use another skill to heal the damage that does go through while trying to spam cloak.

Arkangeloski · October 2018

Buzo wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

For the first bolded part, this same rule applies to players crouching. They are able to buff up with such things as Rally. Why should cloaking be any different?

For the second bolded part, PotL explosions already break cloak.

Cloaking does not suppress AoEs so you have plenty of options to slot one of them.

It should not suppress all regeneration, that's just silly. That would be like me countering with "okay that's fair but nothing should break cloak!"

Lastly, the "Dawnbreaker Anomaly" has been proven to happen with or without the use of cloak. Stop placing blame solely on this skill.

@brandonv516

Because croutching needs preparation and combat disengagement, cloak doesn‘t.

PotL explosions don‘t break cloak anymore since quite some time.

AoE‘s initial hit and a potential enchant proc can be negated by the force miss too, so their reactive „uncloaking“ viability take a huge hit, and most of these AoEs render almost useless due to movement too. „Plenty“ lol.

Cloak already isn‘t broken by an unlimited amount of on-target dots and also negates their damage, that actually is silly.

The „Dawnbreaker Anomaly“ you talk about is still enforced by cloaks behaviour.

Stop defending this skill soley because it’s so comfortable using it in it‘s current, overperformant state.

Potl does and the Magicka version same so does curse , sap essence , steeltornado , sweeps , jabs , caltrops , mark target , meteor on impact , volatile armor , detect pot , radiant mage light and morphs , alliance war skill lines have 2 counters to stealth , evil Hunter (bad) but is still one and it prevents you from cloaking like mage light , bombard and packs a snare , arms of relequen not intended , noxious breath and morphs, mark poison(bad), blade cloak both morphs , hurricane and overwhelming surge... If I forget something please quote and add

I'm bad with numbers but I think that's 21 not counting morphs. Some of those are better than others but still are legit counters so please do some research and you will see how easy is deal with cloak.