Why Balance always fails

Amdar_Godkiller

Darkstalker - Allows vampires to move at base movement speed while stealthed

+25% Concealed Weapon
+18% Swift
+30% Major Expedition
+10% Minor Expedition
+2% Windrunning
+15% Steed with divines
= +100% movement speed while stealthed


With all the unnecessary changes to speed, ZOS is still allowing Nightblade Vampires to achieve the movement speed cap while invisible!

How is this continually ignored?!

Absolute madness...

ScruffyWhiskers

LOL. No magicka build has vamp plus minor expedition plus steed with divines plus major expedition other than from a skill affect for a brief time (maybe a potion sometimes but more likely to run spell power or detect). Try running around in stealth and see what happens to your stamina even with all the legerdemain and CP points. This is a laughable straw man.

rfennell_ESO

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Darkstalker - Allows vampires to move at base movement speed while stealthed

+25% Concealed Weapon
+18% Swift
+30% Major Expedition
+10% Minor Expedition
+2% Windrunning
+15% Steed with divines
= +100% movement speed while stealthed


With all the unnecessary changes to speed, ZOS is still allowing Nightblade Vampires to achieve the movement speed cap while invisible!

How is this continually ignored?!

Absolute madness...

What's possible isn't what's actually in use.

Minor expedition is from a soso set(which is also a medium armor set). Steed on a vampire is useless on the health regen portion of it. A stamblade that doesn't use surprise attack and instead uses concealed weapon is just a runner/hider.

OrphanHelgen

You have no hp regen as vamp, which is why you don't slot steed mundus. Slotting the mundus just for the speed, is very poor and not worth.

Amdar_Godkiller

That's not the point. There are only two ways to reach the speed cap without sprinting, and cloak is one of them (WW with major/minor expedition, 2 swift, windrunning, steed mundus is the other). It makes absolutely no sense for the most powerful defensive mechanism in the game to also grant you the highest possible movement speed. That is broken.

And of course there aren't many magblades out there using the steed because of vampire passives, but a) that's not the point, and b) there are a decent amount of stamina gankblades that are exploiting this as well, and even without the steed, they can reach 197% movement speed without that mundus, and they can do it while stealthed with sets that negate the cost of sneaking.

Let's assume that invisibility being class-locked is fair. Okay, well it shouldn't also provide a) high resistance buffs (major and minor resolve), b) the ability to teleport without becoming visible, and c) movement speed while crouched and invisible to th enemy that are faster than he or she can realistically achieve while sprinting!

That's too OP and game-breakingly unbalanced.

There are two necessary options that ZOS can take here to fix the situation.

1. Give it the Shuffle treatment, by instead granting major expedition while slotting concealed weapon and stealthed- This option is actually a buff for NBs that don't go all out investing in movement speed because they will move 5% faster; however it fixes the exploit that allows the vamp passive, concealed weapon and major expedition to stack, and puts the skill in line with other recently nerfed skills.

2. Change the effect to "Reduces the movement penalty of sneak by 75%. This would be a buff to all non Vampire nightblades (besides those who use that set that causes the same effect.



And a third option,

3. Make the movement speed cap while stealthed significantly less than the movement speed cap while visible, walking, or sprinting. This just makes common sense.

.
It makes no sense that Nightblades can crawl while invisible faster than non nightblades can sprint!

Doomblaze

what good is movement speed without any sustain or other stats? Especially addressing vamps that are a really poor transformation choice to begin with.

Ganking and chasing after opponents? I suspect you'd be the one spamming cloak for survivability if you didn't run out of stamina already with this sustain-free build.

Unless you ACTUALLY tried it and are judging based on your conclusions, not just on paper of course.

Amdar_Godkiller

Well I do have both a mag blade and stam blade, so yeah, that's why I'm commenting on it.

If you don't understand that movement speed is currently the second best form of mitigation in PVP, then I don't believe you actually PVP much or recently. Cloak + high movement speed + major evasion = Miss, miss, dodge, miss, miss....

It's very easy to practically eliminate the cost of sneak with legerdemain CP and set bonuses.

The bigger issue is the fact that detection pots and detecting skills are totally outclassed by invisibility when you can move at the speed cap and teleport while invisible.

it takes a bad nightblade to die 1v1

Maryal

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Well I do have both a mag blade and stam blade, so yeah, that's why I'm commenting on it.

If you don't understand that movement speed is currently the second best form of mitigation in PVP, then I don't believe you actually PVP much or recently. Cloak + high movement speed + major evasion = Miss, miss, dodge, miss, miss....

It's very easy to practically eliminate the cost of sneak with legerdemain CP and set bonuses.

The bigger issue is the fact that detection pots and detecting skills are totally outclassed by invisibility when you can move at the speed cap and teleport while invisible.

it takes a bad nightblade to die 1v1

Whenever someone throws around the old 'good NBs do this' or 'bad NBs do that' well, you can be sure the sky is sure to fall.

Amdar_Godkiller

All I'm doing is asking why nerf everyone's movement speed but cloaked nightblades?

it's a curious omission at best, and at worst the absolute most unbalanced way to approach movement speed changes.

Honestly, I'd like some of the other nerfs either lessened or reversed more than I'd like to see this broken aspect of NB play removed, but I do feel like ignoring concealed weapon deserves some commentary from the developers.

Is having PVP filled with super fast invisible teleporting nightblades ideal while nerfing the speed of everyone else from PVP balance perspective? If so, could the combat team attempt to explain it. That's not unreasonable.

Amdar_Godkiller

Maryal wrote: »

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Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Well I do have both a mag blade and stam blade, so yeah, that's why I'm commenting on it.

If you don't understand that movement speed is currently the second best form of mitigation in PVP, then I don't believe you actually PVP much or recently. Cloak + high movement speed + major evasion = Miss, miss, dodge, miss, miss....

It's very easy to practically eliminate the cost of sneak with legerdemain CP and set bonuses.

The bigger issue is the fact that detection pots and detecting skills are totally outclassed by invisibility when you can move at the speed cap and teleport while invisible.

it takes a bad nightblade to die 1v1

Whenever someone throws around the old 'good NBs do this' or 'bad NBs do that' well, you can be sure the sky is sure to fall.

Well it's the most OP class at the moment in PVP for both mag and stam, so maybe we should look into repairing that sky...

rfennell_ESO

The only thing that's a bit of an anomaly is concealed weapon being 25% speed.

But... it's conditional speed, and that condition is stealth or invis.

Should you be able to move at speed cap while stealthed or invisible? Probably not, but not a lot of people are going for that and it's likely pretty rare as you give up a ton of stats to do it.

Amdar_Godkiller

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The only thing that's a bit of an anomaly is concealed weapon being 25% speed.

But... it's conditional speed, and that condition is stealth or invis.

Should you be able to move at speed cap while stealthed or invisible? Probably not, but not a lot of people are going for that and it's likely pretty rare as you give up a ton of stats to do it.

You'd be surprised. It's pretty common on XBOX One currently

Minno

Keep in mind windrunner is multiplicative and steed mundas with divines is both an offensive and defensive loss (base of10?).

Much better to be at 90% while still killing something. But your argument is sound; they should have just lowered the speed cap + reduced forward momentum duration instead of all the nerfs.

LegacyDM

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Darkstalker - Allows vampires to move at base movement speed while stealthed

+25% Concealed Weapon
+18% Swift
+30% Major Expedition
+10% Minor Expedition
+2% Windrunning
+15% Steed with divines
= +100% movement speed while stealthed


With all the unnecessary changes to speed, ZOS is still allowing Nightblade Vampires to achieve the movement speed cap while invisible!

How is this continually ignored?!

Absolute madness...

Speccing this way is seriously gimping yourself. Using steed in place of atronoch or mages stone seriously gimps you. Using full divines instead of impen is silly. As others pointed out, you are seriously giving up more important stats for getting minor expedition. It’s apparent you don’t play a mageblade at all or at least play non competitively which leads me to believe your fishing for an unsubstantiated nerf.

Amdar_Godkiller

Minno wrote: »

Keep in mind windrunner is multiplicative and steed mundas with divines is both an offensive and defensive loss (base of10?).

Much better to be at 90% while still killing something. But your argument is sound; they should have just lowered the speed cap + reduced forward momentum duration instead of all the nerfs.

I've head that about windrunning, I just haven't personally tested it, but yeah there was a rational way out.

Amdar_Godkiller

LegacyDM wrote: »

show previous quotes

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Darkstalker - Allows vampires to move at base movement speed while stealthed

+25% Concealed Weapon
+18% Swift
+30% Major Expedition
+10% Minor Expedition
+2% Windrunning
+15% Steed with divines
= +100% movement speed while stealthed


With all the unnecessary changes to speed, ZOS is still allowing Nightblade Vampires to achieve the movement speed cap while invisible!

How is this continually ignored?!

Absolute madness...

Speccing this way is seriously gimping yourself. Using steed in place of atronoch or mages stone seriously gimps you. Using full divines instead of impen is silly. As others pointed out, you are seriously giving up more important stats for getting minor expedition. It’s apparent you don’t play a mageblade at all or at least play non competitively which leads me to believe your fishing for an unsubstantiated nerf.

I'm not suggesting you should do it, I'm pointing out the sheer options for speed that nightblades still have including a 25% buff that costs nothing and allows them reach WW sprint speeds while crawling.

SugaComa

Actually balance fails cos the maths is too complicated

It needs simplifying

Very simple

Weapon and spell damage = how much damage you do ... Effects tool tips

Stamina and magic pool = how many time you can cast a skill, more you have more you can use

Health = how much life you have

Armour value = how much damage reduction you have (against all damage types)

Regen = how quickly those stats recover when not being affected by use.

CP can then help bolster certain sub areas with in ... This would be much easier to balance and also allow many new player a better understanding of what they require to improve the area they are lacking

Also less calculations for the server

rfennell_ESO

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

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rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The only thing that's a bit of an anomaly is concealed weapon being 25% speed.

But... it's conditional speed, and that condition is stealth or invis.

Should you be able to move at speed cap while stealthed or invisible? Probably not, but not a lot of people are going for that and it's likely pretty rare as you give up a ton of stats to do it.

You'd be surprised. It's pretty common on XBOX One currently

I would be surprised, mostly because all the people doing it... you can't even see 2/3 of them. So it's hyperbole, nothing more.