Redguard sustain is ruining overall PvE stamina sustain

John_Falstaff

@ImmortalCX , in cace you're running Relequen, it doesn't proc Adrenaline Rush anymore (they fixed a bug where its damage counted as direct melee damage), and damage glyphs stopped proccing it in Murkmire - so maybe it's what you're looking at. You have to weave very accurately.

ruengdet2515

Some babies need NERF again.

TheYKcid

There's always going to be a rigid PvE BiS because of how specialised the stam DPS role is.

Redguard sustain is on top not because it's innately overpowered, but because it fits this specialisation. DW frontbar is optimal, so adrenaline rush gets procced nearly on cooldown. And it's more efficient than Bosmers' extra 12% regen because people run low base regen in PvE.

If you want to see how Redguard compares to the other stam races in a more holistic setting, look to PvP.

Bosmer offers better sustain for ranged/gank builds that have small offensive windows and/or no melee damage at all. Khajiit is comparable damage wise, with a slight advantage on HP regen builds. Orc offers the best brawling capability by far (healing, tankiness and damage all-in-one), as well as high mobility, and is arguably the meta at the high end of PvP right now.

Redguard has it's niche, which happens to be PvE stam DPS, and that's fine. Nerf it to be equalised with the other races in this one regard, and you'll make it obsolete in all others. That's not a positive direction for balance or diversity.

John_Falstaff

@TheYKcid , you call that niche? This niche is the size of the game itself, there's nothing ESO is more about than PvE damage. Niche is one thing, but races must all be capable in areas where it actually matters.

Abigail

Here we go again.

NO MORE NERFS

Don't you people ever get tired of ruining this game?

TheYKcid

All the stam races are capable in certain areas. Whether those areas matter is up to the individual and what content they tackle.

I can't agree that PvE stam DPS is so singularly important that it should dictate gamewide racial balancing. It's a subset of a subset of one gametype, ultimately.

SodanTok

TheYKcid wrote: »

There's always going to be a rigid PvE BiS because of how specialised the stam DPS role is.

Redguard sustain is on top not because it's innately overpowered, but because it fits this specialisation. DW frontbar is optimal, so adrenaline rush gets procced nearly on cooldown. And it's more efficient than Bosmers' extra 12% regen because people run low base regen in PvE.

If you want to see how Redguard compares to the other stam races in a more holistic setting, look to PvP.

Bosmer offers better sustain for ranged/gank builds that have small offensive windows and/or no melee damage at all. Khajiit is comparable damage wise, with a slight advantage on HP regen builds. Orc offers the best brawling capability by far (healing, tankiness and damage all-in-one), as well as high mobility, and is arguably the meta at the high end of PvP right now.

Redguard has it's niche, which happens to be PvE stam DPS, and that's fine. Nerf it to be equalised with the other races in this one regard, and you'll make it obsolete in all others. That's not a positive direction for balance or diversity.

I think there is some difference between "being clear winner in any PVE stam DD setting by large margin" niche vs for example "being favored race for gankers in pvp" niche when comparing redguard and bosmer. Currently all races have their advantages and disadvantages except redguard, who is unmatched in PVE and no other race even offers viable alternative. Making redguard totally obsolete or removing it from game would actually be a positive direction for diversity, tho obviously nobody wants that and going direction of balance is preferred.

Sheezabeast

Nerfing Redguards...what’s next, the untouchable Altmer?

Ragnarock41

If you're gonna nerf redguard again, I want a free race change token. Tired of this crap.

Abigail

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Nerfing Redguards...what’s next, the untouchable Altmer?

The ONLY way some people will be happy is when ZOS eliminates all classes but one, thus solving the supposed balance problem.

Following these forums makes me laugh; we have threads bemoaning the fact that classes and races have been too diluted, the remaining differences being irrelevant. And then we get threads like this one.

STOP THE FRIGGING NERFS. JUST STOP.

John_Falstaff

People can't read sometimes. Very few here are actually asking for nerfs. We're asking for buffs. Nobody wants the situation where everyone is pigeonholed into heavy attack rotations, everyone's fed up with sustain problems. But I keep wondering if ZOS uses redguards as lithmus paper for measuring the state of stamina sustain in PvE.

Bigevilpeter

John_Falstaff wrote: »

People can't read sometimes. Very few here are actually asking for nerfs. We're asking for buffs. Nobody wants the situation where everyone is pigeonholed into heavy attack rotations, everyone's fed up with sustain problems. But I keep wondering if ZOS uses redguards as lithmus paper for measuring the state of stamina sustain in PvE.

Yeah I really wish people would really L2R before crying. my 2 reccomendations were buff other races sustain or in case of nerfing redguard they buff overall sustain so it still wouldn't be a problem, so in both cases sustain should be good, so why are people crying?

Abigail

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Yeah I really wish people would really L2R before crying. my 2 reccomendations were buff other races sustain or in case of nerfing redguard they buff overall sustain so it still wouldn't be a problem, so in both cases sustain should be good, so why are people crying?

People are "crying" because OP starts out indicating Redguards have an advantage. If history is any indicator, ZOS will immediately infer MUST NERF REDGUARDS. ZOS's proclivity leans in the direction of subtracting rather than adding, clearly.

It's time to let the dust settle on all the current changes and to hold off calling for yet more.

MaleAmazon

Nobody wants the situation where everyone is pigeonholed into heavy attack rotations, everyone's fed up with sustain problems

Well, ok, I don't personally agree with your assertion as I like HA, but ZOS also wants HA to be about sustain. If you can sustain resources without using heavy attacks then heavy attacks have no place in the game, basically.

Also, regarding this thread as a whole; what's with the 'only redguard viable' thing?
You can finish all stamina content in this game with any race, certainly any non-magicka race. If you're talking about leaderboards ok, but that's a tiny portion of the playerbase and imo it would be better to either disable racial skills or let players choose from a pool freely. I'd prefer the latter, race passives are dumb to begin with, what is this, 1987?

ImmortalCX

MaleAmazon wrote: »

You can finish all stamina content in this game with any race, certainly any non-magicka race. If you're talking about leaderboards ok, but that's a tiny portion of the playerbase and imo it would be better to either disable racial skills or let players choose from a pool freely. I'd prefer the latter, race passives are dumb to begin with, what is this, 1987?

Quite frankly, the gender options are also too restrictive. Male or female? What is this, 1987?

Agenericname

Abigail wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Yeah I really wish people would really L2R before crying. my 2 reccomendations were buff other races sustain or in case of nerfing redguard they buff overall sustain so it still wouldn't be a problem, so in both cases sustain should be good, so why are people crying?

People are "crying" because OP starts out indicating Redguards have an advantage. If history is any indicator, ZOS will immediately infer MUST NERF REDGUARDS. ZOS's proclivity leans in the direction of subtracting rather than adding, clearly.

It's time to let the dust settle on all the current changes and to hold off calling for yet more.

There is that. Personally I feel like the gap is a little too wide, but asking for balance may not yield the results I would like. I dont play a red guard, but I'd almost rather just leave well enough alone than break what I do play.

MaleAmazon

Quite frankly, the gender options are also too restrictive. Male or female? What is this, 1987?

O <- you
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}○> <- me not taking the bait

Qbiken

You can literally throw on an absorb stamina glyph on your bow-bar and proc it constantly with endless hail, and achieve close to or similar sustain to a redguard. And you lose about 700 dps compared to a redguard using a damage enchant instead.

JobooAGS

Qbiken wrote: »

You can literally throw on an absorb stamina glyph on your bow-bar and proc it constantly with endless hail, and achieve close to or similar sustain to a redguard. And you lose about 700 dps compared to a redguard using a damage enchant instead.

All pve stam should be using absorb stam. The damage difference between disease and absorb stam (~1k) pales in comparison to the sustain you get.

ZarkingFrued

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Problem is Redguard sustain is way better than any other stamina race + ofc th highest max stamina passive and with sustain being a major issue in PvE Redguards have become almost a must if you want to reliable play. Also when ZoS balances stamina sustain Redguards oversustain so they have to tone it down making it harder on the other races.

Stamina races are pretty cool and has a lot of options like Woodelf, Khajiht, Orc, Nord, Imperial but without the sustain endgame players just go to Redguard.

The solution is to either make sustain not an issue for other races and let Redguard over sustain or to nerf Redguard sustain and adjust overall sustain accordingly.

Oh yay more nerfs. If they nerf a race and it costs 3000 crowns to change race. I bet they will make plenty of money. Quit crying nerf, and ask for buffs. The problem is not redgaurds as you have stated, that's idiocy. The problem is sustain.

Agenericname

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Problem is Redguard sustain is way better than any other stamina race + ofc th highest max stamina passive and with sustain being a major issue in PvE Redguards have become almost a must if you want to reliable play. Also when ZoS balances stamina sustain Redguards oversustain so they have to tone it down making it harder on the other races.

Stamina races are pretty cool and has a lot of options like Woodelf, Khajiht, Orc, Nord, Imperial but without the sustain endgame players just go to Redguard.

The solution is to either make sustain not an issue for other races and let Redguard over sustain or to nerf Redguard sustain and adjust overall sustain accordingly.

Oh yay more nerfs. If they nerf a race and it costs 3000 crowns to change race. I bet they will make plenty of money. Quit crying nerf, and ask for buffs. The problem is not redgaurds as you have stated, that's idiocy. The problem is sustain.

The OP could have left everything beyond the conjunction out and been better received. If you omit that part they say roughly the same thing.

killahsin

the cry baby community calling for more nerfs, who would have thought. give it a rest already. ZoS do you see what kind of community you are fostering with your nerf design process? Do you get it yet? Stop nerfing and start iterating better seriously. This is getting ridiculous already.

madeeh91rwb17_ESO

Redguard passives are almost all the opposite copies of Altmer passives.
Look'em both up.

D0PAMINE

Redguard sustain isn't ruining anything. People using sustain sets are just better prepared than you.

zaria

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Nerfing Redguards...what’s next, the untouchable Altmer?

No nerf the paycheck of the morons who came up with ESO racials.
Why not make it leveling only like in the single player games, yes this could include xp bonuses for kills with weapons or skill lines. So an magic race get xp buffs on heal assist or kills with destro staff.
No this does not need to be balanced well as its just for leveling.
The weird thing is that if you have an level 1 altmer and bosmer, they have the same racial passives, now makes the bosmer an magsorc and the altmer and stamdk, at level 50 the altmer will suddenly have magic bonuses and the bosmer stamina one even if never unlocked relevant weapon and armor lines.

kojou

I would like to see cost reduction buffed on both light and medium armor personally.

John_Falstaff

@MaleAmazon , you shouldn't assume that I don't want to run for leaderboards. Or anyone else doesn't want to run for leaderboards. If not now, then in the future; and surely nobody enjoys that sort of pressure - 'no worries, as long as you choose to stay peasants, your choice of race won't ever matter'. Imagine that female characters had -50 spell and weapon damage compared to male characters. It's all right, really? You still can complete any content in the game as female character, no big deal. But would you get behind it? Rhetoric question.

MehrunesFlagon

kojou wrote: »

I would like to see cost reduction buffed on both light and medium armor personally.

Bring cost reduction back to cp.

MehrunesFlagon

If you have a problem with it.Roll a damn Redguard.

John_Falstaff

@MehrunesFlagon , not everyone's so shallow that they're playing MMORPG game for stats and achievements alone. Some equally value both MMO and RPG parts.