Redguard sustain is ruining overall PvE stamina sustain

SHADOW2KK

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Less nerfing, more adapting

I kind of chuckle when I see replies like this.

Touts adapting, L2P etc but Mains a Redguard Stam Blade.

Cool story, but I play all classes, and always adapt, have done since Early Access, I have never asked for nerfs, I might not like things, but I always adapt.

usmcjdking

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I actually remember a while back, when Khajiit was getting an additional racial bonus to be competitive. IIRC it was 6% Max Stamina, which made a lot of sense mathematically to balance the races. At the time, the forums blew up with nerf threads about how they didn’t want to be obligated to play a cat and how it would be too OP. The changes were reverted before that patch went live. That is why we only have one viable race today. Keep up the complaining and soon we’ll have zero.

It's important to know that the only comparative race to Khajiit at this time was Orc and Orc was still a solid 6-7% behind in DPS.

usmcjdking

5PC VO (which is a great damage set) will save you significantly more stamina than Adrenaline Rush will give you.

A single heavy attack once every 2 rotations will cover the distance as well.

These are not hard concessions to make.

John_Falstaff

@usmcjdking , first you said that it's not a sacrifice to heavy attack and (something you didn't mention when you counted your 25 seconds) toss some points into heavy attack CPs, now you find new way to nerf yourself - by advertising VO as a damage set while its 5-piece bonus doesn't do anything about damage...

[Edit to remove bait]

GreenHere

webrgesner wrote: »

people dont even accept my khajiit nb dps cuz im not a red guard even tho im pulling 48k dps but before they know that theyd be trippin bout my race

If that's true, then those people are *** and you're better off without them in your life

edit :: lol... guess I learned a new censored word I can't use on the forums :P

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for some unneeded back and forth. Just a reminder for everyone to keep it civil with the Forum Rules in mind.

Thank you for understanding.

DanteYoda

Race passives need to go or be a choice across all classes, there is a reason no other mmo uses race passives.. trying to balance a game that is inherently unbalanced all the way through is insane...

lagrue

Scarpion wrote: »

They nerfed sustain across the board in Morrowind. Redguard in lore has the adrenaline rush passive, they are SUPPOSED to have more sustain. If ZOS did not kill PVE sustain in Morrowind, other stamina races would be viable, such as Khajiit. Sustain is so bad at the moment (except on both nightblades) that players are forced to go Redguard.

ZOS should not nerf Redguard, or they are going against the lore. They need to buff other sources of sustain so other classes can sustain and compete with Redguard.

I like many players are tired of nerfs, ZOS needs to start buffing, otherwise everything will become unplayable eventually.

I actually stopped playing for a year because of those sustain changes... some dumb part of me was hoping after a few months ZOS would backpeddal... didn't happen... thankfully after such a long break it didn't feel bad to "re-learn" the new sustain...

I hated the changes, but they did make me a better player, i.e. more rotation conscious. Still... wish it hadn't happened.

iAmLife

ruengdet2515 wrote: »

Zos nerf - Dev nerf - Game nerf - Class nerf - Race nerf - Nane nerf

Skill nerf - Weapon nerf - Armor nerf - Item nerf - Monster nerf - Group nerf - Guild Nerf - Player nerf
...

All nerf
...
NERF Online

My name should be nerfed too 🤔 I mean, it's obvious, it's too superior 😔

El_Borracho

usmcjdking wrote: »

5PC VO (which is a great damage set) will save you significantly more stamina than Adrenaline Rush will give you.

A single heavy attack once every 2 rotations will cover the distance as well.

These are not hard concessions to make.

But I want to constantly spam vigor and caltrops while wearing AY and Relequen because some guy on YouTube said it was the new meta to get me 140 more DPS.

aaylas

Scarpion wrote: »

Sustain is so bad at the moment (except on both nightblades) that players are forced to go Redguard.

They are nerfing magblade sustain next patch lol. They can't let a good thing exist

Prabooo

lol with this nerf rage we won't even have a game to play very soon...

Kanar

Best solution would he to buff the other races' damage. This would allow them to allocate enchants, sets, etc to bring their sustain up to redguards level, but they would have the higher damage buff so they would be at same DPS in the end.
Preserves redguard flavor as sustain race, and adds other viable options. Also, since different races would need different set-ups there would be build differences between each race even if they're the same class.

Katahdin

Heh to the guy claiming that diversity will be ruined if other classes are brought up to the level of redguards.... you've contradicted your self in almost every post you've made about it

If people are choosing only one race because the passive on that race makes them more viable or easier to play, where is your "diversity" then.

usmcjdking

Kanar wrote: »

Best solution would he to buff the other races' damage. This would allow them to allocate enchants, sets, etc to bring their sustain up to redguards level, but they would have the higher damage buff so they would be at same DPS in the end.
Preserves redguard flavor as sustain race, and adds other viable options. Also, since different races would need different set-ups there would be build differences between each race even if they're the same class.

Every race has it's own flavor and specialty. The only 3 races that are widely underrepresented in any avenue is Nord, Breton and Imperial. Even the lackluster Nord has it's uses because it's *** immortal in trials with non-braindead healers.

Onefrkncrzypope

A suggestion:

Pick you race:
Breton:

Increases experience gain with the Light Armor Skill line by 15%.
Increases your Alliance Points gained by 1%.

Orsimer

Increases experience gain with the Heavy Armor Skill line by 15%
Increases your crafting Inspiration gained by 10%

Redguard

Increases experience gain with One-Handed and Shield Skill line by 15%
Increases the duration of eaten food by 15 minutes.

Argonian

Increases experience gain with the Restoration Staff Skill line by 15%.
Increases your swimming speed by 50%.

Dunmer

Increases the experience gain with the Dual Wield Skill line by 15%.
Reduces your damage taken by environmental lava by 50%.

Nord

Increases experience gain with the Two-Handed Skill line by 15%
Increases the duration of any consumed drink by 15 minutes.

Altmer

Increases experience gain with the Destruction Staff Skill line by 15%.
Increases your experience gained by 1%.

Bosmer

Increases experience gain with the Bow Skill line by 15%
Decreases your fall damage taken by 10%.

Khajiit

Increases the experience gain with the Medium Armor Skill line by 15%.
Increases your chance to successfully pickpocket by 5%.

Imperial

Increases experience gain with the One-Handed and Shield Line by 15%
Increases your gold gained by 1%

Chose your Birthsign(like every other dang TES since idk ARENA!!!! but seriously)

Warrior: Current imperial passives

Thief: Current khajiit passives

Shadow: Current Bosmer passives

Mage: Current Atlmer passives

Tower: Current Nord passives

Apprentice: Current Dunmer Passives

Lady: Current Argonian passives

Serpent: Current Redguard Passives

Shadow: Current Orsimer Passives

Lord: Current Breton Passives


Or what ever birthstone for what ever passive.

Have existing characters choose their new birthsign. It would auto level to current level just like a race change would. Race would be cosmeticish and have birthsign tokens as well to make more money.... Easy? ye

One side note:
I know currently there is also more active flavors for the races like nords ice resist which all can be added to the "racial passives" I've listed above and leave the generic for the birthsigns. I would not recommend giving the orc the whole flavor passive but only the speed passive. Also add some extra to the races that lack a non damage flavor like resistances of the other races

Perwulf

If they're gonna nerf Redguards at least buffs Nord to make them viable to other roles outside tanks.

BuddyAces

These are not hard concessions to make.[/quote]

But I want to constantly spam vigor and caltrops while wearing AY and Relequen because some guy on YouTube said it was the new meta to get me 140 more DPS.[/quote]

Relequin + Ravager is mountains better than VO. The only thing VO is good for is trash if you aren't using 2h. Swap to VO for trash and spin to win until boss.

usmcjdking

Does it come as a surprise that you pick a race with no sustain, a proc set with no sustain, an a damage set with no sustain, and a helm set with no sustain...

And we are up in arms about sustain issues? You can't make this *** up.

Onefrkncrzypope

usmcjdking wrote: »

Does it come as a surprise that you pick a race with no sustain, a proc set with no sustain, an a damage set with no sustain, and a helm set with no sustain...

And we are up in arms about sustain issues? You can't make this *** up.

You pick a set with no sustain, a proc set with no sustain, a monster set with no sustain, and be a redguard and have the highest damage and sustain... Not saying to nerf Redguard just give something to other races.

Bladehawk

Reading through this thread, I'm disappointed to see racial bonuses having such an impact on performance. Surely, there's a way to have flavorful, lore-friendly traits that don't affect performance by more than 2-3%, right? Also, ESO's got a lot of game systems besides dealing or receiving (less) damage. I like Onefrkncrzypope's suggestions above, or something along those lines.

JumpmanLane

It’s not the class, its not the race; it’s the player and the build. The very best players adapt to whatever ZOS does. Whether it’s a nerf or just some sort of silly ideas about how the game should be.

All the best players I know are rolling magsorcs. Why? Because everyone “says” that they are dead lol. The best magsorc I know (who has EIGHT. MAG. SORCS.) ain’t even tweaking any of them lol. He’s just gonna play one more than the others.

Really, if Redguard is truly better than other races, roll a Redguard if you can’t be bothered to figure out how to play the lesser sustaining races. It comes down to theory crafting and testing. If all you do is run copy paste builds, all the nerfs in the world won’t help. AND... You’re just a nuisance of a customer to ZOS lol.

BuddyAces

JumpmanLane wrote: »

It’s not the class, its not the race; it’s the player and the build. The very best players adapt to whatever ZOS does. Whether it’s a nerf or just some sort silly ideas about how the game should be.

All the best players are know are rolling magsorcs. Why? Because everyone “says” that they are dead lol. The best magsorc has know (who has EIGHT. MAG. SORCS.) ain’t even tweaking any of them lol. He’s just gonna play one more than the others.

Really, if Redguard is truly better than other races, roll a Redguard if you can’t be bothered to figure out how to player the lesser sustaining races. It comes down to theory crafting and testing. If all you do is run copy paste builds, all the nerfs in the world won’t help. You’re just a nuisance of a customer to ZOS lol.

Yeah I can go like Nord (for arguments sake) instead of Redguard but the difference is bigger than what you folks on the forums are claiming it to be. We want the gap to not be as big.

NyxWrench

The Redguard bonus can occur every 5 seconds. It requires melee attacks. When I see people run exceptional parses, light attacks tend to occur every 1.25 seconds. Backbar and Endless Hail won't proc the bonus, but most frontbar abilities should. If you assume a light attack plus a melee ability in a 1.25 second window, and that you spend 75% of your time on the front bar, you should average roughly an extra 224 stamina per tick (2 seconds).


With absolutely nothing but racial passives, Bosmer matches Redguard sustain at 1867 base (gear) recovery.

1867 * 1.09 + 224 = 1867 * 1.21 = 2259

With racial passives (9% and 21%), medium armor (28%), CP (14%), and potions (20%), Bosmer matches Redguard sustain at 1867 base (gear) recovery.

1867 * 1.71 + 224 = 1867 * 1.83 = 3416

So it looks like 1867 is the equality point regardless of how many bonuses are stacked.

e => redguard extra stamina; 224
r => redguard total bonus to stamina
b => bosmer total bonus to stamina
n => baseline stamina in gear

n*r + e = n*b

e = n*b - n*r

e = n*(b-r)

n = e/(b-r)

Since (b-r) is constant, n is constant with respect to e.

Of course 1867 is a pretty ridiculous goal in recovery from just base+gear. I'm not sure it's possible to get over about 1500, assuming a base of about 350 (and even that might be overestimating the base). That's 2 stamina recovery stats from each of two gear sets, plus another one from the monster set, and all three jewelry items enchanted with stamina recovery.

So, realistically speaking, the alternate race with the highest stamina recovery will never match what Redguard can do. The question then becomes, how much do you actually need for maintaining sustain? And this becomes difficult to answer once factoring in heavy attacks and orbs and such, but presumably a stam build person can look at one of their parses and report what the stamina drain value was.



Naked Bosmer nightblade with 8% stamina recovery in CP has 591 magicka recovery, 355 health recovery, and 740 stamina recovery. Adding an earring with 133 stamina recovery increases stamina recovery by 191.

133 transforming to 191 means +44% to stamina recovery. Subtracting the 21% racial and 8% CP from that 44% leaves +15% that presumably comes from the class itself.

Factoring out the 44% bonus from the 740 leaves 514 as the base recovery value. 514 is 45% higher than the 355 health recovery.

If that same +15% applied to magicka recovery (which is higher than health recovery), that would also drop to 514.

So, assuming 355 is the base recovery rate, a Bosmer nightblade gets 1.45 of that for magicka and stamina recovery, and 1.0 for health.


A Nord dragonknight with 9% stamina recovery from CP and 20% health recovery from racial has baselines of 514 magicka, 370 health, and 560 stamina recovery. Taking 9% from 560 stamina recovery puts it at the familiar 514, which is also the same as the magicka recovery without any bonuses. The 370 is substantially lower than what seemed like the baseline 355, considering it's also getting a 20% bonus. I guess dragonknights get a severe penalty on health recovery?


Bosmer sorcerer with 11% magicka recovery from CP and 21% stamina recovery from racial has recoveries of: 632 magicka, 370 health, 724 stamina.

Adding a 133 stamina recovery ring increased recovery from 724 to 885, an increase of 161, which is +21%. So there's no class bonus to stamina recovery, but there is a higher baseline. Factoring out 21% from 724 leaves 599 base. That's 1.69 times the assumed 355 nominal base.

Adding a 145 magicka recovery ring increased recovery from 632 to 810, an increase of 178, which is +23%. That implies a 12% recovery bonus from the class. Factoring out the +23% from the 632 reported value yields a 514 baseline.

Adding a 157 health recovery ring increased recovery from 370 to 527, an increase of 157, which is exactly as given. That implies a 0% recovery bonus from the class.


Baseline appears to be 299. 355 is 1.19 * 299. 514 is 1.72 * 299. 370 is 1.24 * 299. So 370 is +24%, and 514 is +72%, which is 3x the 24% of the other. Those are reasonable scaling values. 355 can also be considered 96% of 370, which fits in with the 24% scaling (24%, 48%, 72%, 96%), but giving nightblade a weaker health recovery rate.


**** Is this a bug? I would actually expect Bosmer to be one of the 'healthier' races, but 1.24 baseline is pretty low-end. And the Nord dragonknight seems way out of whack as well, since the Nord at least should have a much higher baseline, and dragon knights should also be pretty solid, but that combo is only getting a 1.04 (if that) baseline. Or possibly it's a 1.72 baseline, +20% from race, -20% from class? That's messed up.


You know, I'd expect someone to have already worked out all these numbers somewhere, but google and wikis fail me. Has no one ever actually done the work to get this data? It seems pretty straightforward, if time-consuming.


***

Anyway, I started all this to look at the stamina recovery.

Bosmer sorcerer seems to get 2.0 baseline, +21% racial, +0% class.

Bosmer nightblade seems to get 1.72 baseline, +21% racial, +15% class.

Nord dragonknight seems to get 1.72 baseline, +0% racial, +0% class.



I need to see the Redguard baseline values to know how they really compare. Max stamina recovery from base + gear for Bosmer seems to be about 1666, which is below the threshold to match Redguard recovery. However if Redguard's baseline is lower than other races, that would balance things better. It would also match with the 'adrenaline' description, in giving high burst recovery, but lower nominal recovery.



Extras:

Nightblade gets +15% magicka recovery, +15% stamina recovery, +0% health recovery.

Dragonknight gets +0% magicka recovery, +0% stamina recovery, -20% health recovery.

Sorcerer gets +12% magicka recovery, +0% stamina recovery (but possibly a higher base stamina recovery), +0% health recovery.


I don't have a templar or warden to check. Dragonknight seems to have broken health recovery%, and I'd expect Nord to have a higher baseline health recovery.


I messed up and forgot about how the slotted skills affected the results. Redoing the math.

usmcjdking

NyxWrench wrote: »

The Redguard bonus can occur every 5 seconds. It requires melee attacks. When I see people run exceptional parses, light attacks tend to occur every 1.25 seconds. Backbar and Endless Hail won't proc the bonus, but most frontbar abilities should. If you assume a light attack plus a melee ability in a 1.25 second window, and that you spend 75% of your time on the front bar, you should average roughly an extra 224 stamina per tick (2 seconds).


With absolutely nothing but racial passives, Bosmer matches Redguard sustain at 1867 base (gear) recovery.

1867 * 1.09 + 224 = 1867 * 1.21 = 2259

With racial passives (9% and 21%), medium armor (28%), CP (14%), and potions (20%), Bosmer matches Redguard sustain at 1867 base (gear) recovery.

1867 * 1.71 + 224 = 1867 * 1.83 = 3416

So it looks like 1867 is the equality point regardless of how many bonuses are stacked.

e => redguard extra stamina; 224
r => redguard total bonus to stamina
b => bosmer total bonus to stamina
n => baseline stamina in gear

n*r + e = n*b

e = n*b - n*r

e = n*(b-r)

n = e/(b-r)

Since (b-r) is constant, n is constant with respect to e.

Of course 1867 is a pretty ridiculous goal in recovery from just base+gear. I'm not sure it's possible to get over about 1500, assuming a base of about 350 (and even that might be overestimating the base). That's 2 stamina recovery stats from each of two gear sets, plus another one from the monster set, and all three jewelry items enchanted with stamina recovery.

So, realistically speaking, the alternate race with the highest stamina recovery will never match what Redguard can do. The question then becomes, how much do you actually need for maintaining sustain? And this becomes difficult to answer once factoring in heavy attacks and orbs and such, but presumably a stam build person can look at one of their parses and report what the stamina drain value was.



Naked Bosmer nightblade with 8% stamina recovery in CP has 591 magicka recovery, 355 health recovery, and 740 stamina recovery. Adding an earring with 133 stamina recovery increases stamina recovery by 191.

133 transforming to 191 means +44% to stamina recovery. Subtracting the 21% racial and 8% CP from that 44% leaves +15% that presumably comes from the class itself.

Factoring out the 44% bonus from the 740 leaves 514 as the base recovery value. 514 is 45% higher than the 355 health recovery.

If that same +15% applied to magicka recovery (which is higher than health recovery), that would also drop to 514.

So, assuming 355 is the base recovery rate, a Bosmer nightblade gets 1.45 of that for magicka and stamina recovery, and 1.0 for health.


A Nord dragonknight with 9% stamina recovery from CP and 20% health recovery from racial has baselines of 514 magicka, 370 health, and 560 stamina recovery. Taking 9% from 560 stamina recovery puts it at the familiar 514, which is also the same as the magicka recovery without any bonuses. The 370 is substantially lower than what seemed like the baseline 355, considering it's also getting a 20% bonus. I guess dragonknights get a severe penalty on health recovery?


Bosmer sorcerer with 11% magicka recovery from CP and 21% stamina recovery from racial has recoveries of: 632 magicka, 370 health, 724 stamina.

Adding a 133 stamina recovery ring increased recovery from 724 to 885, an increase of 161, which is +21%. So there's no class bonus to stamina recovery, but there is a higher baseline. Factoring out 21% from 724 leaves 599 base. That's 1.69 times the assumed 355 nominal base.

Adding a 145 magicka recovery ring increased recovery from 632 to 810, an increase of 178, which is +23%. That implies a 12% recovery bonus from the class. Factoring out the +23% from the 632 reported value yields a 514 baseline.

Adding a 157 health recovery ring increased recovery from 370 to 527, an increase of 157, which is exactly as given. That implies a 0% recovery bonus from the class.


Baseline appears to be 299. 355 is 1.19 * 299. 514 is 1.72 * 299. 370 is 1.24 * 299. So 370 is +24%, and 514 is +72%, which is 3x the 24% of the other. Those are reasonable scaling values. 355 can also be considered 96% of 370, which fits in with the 24% scaling (24%, 48%, 72%, 96%), but giving nightblade a weaker health recovery rate.


**** Is this a bug? I would actually expect Bosmer to be one of the 'healthier' races, but 1.24 baseline is pretty low-end. And the Nord dragonknight seems way out of whack as well, since the Nord at least should have a much higher baseline, and dragon knights should also be pretty solid, but that combo is only getting a 1.04 (if that) baseline. Or possibly it's a 1.72 baseline, +20% from race, -20% from class? That's messed up.


You know, I'd expect someone to have already worked out all these numbers somewhere, but google and wikis fail me. Has no one ever actually done the work to get this data? It seems pretty straightforward, if time-consuming.


***

Anyway, I started all this to look at the stamina recovery.

Bosmer sorcerer seems to get 2.0 baseline, +21% racial, +0% class.

Bosmer nightblade seems to get 1.72 baseline, +21% racial, +15% class.

Nord dragonknight seems to get 1.72 baseline, +0% racial, +0% class.



I need to see the Redguard baseline values to know how they really compare. Max stamina recovery from base + gear for Bosmer seems to be about 1666, which is below the threshold to match Redguard recovery. However if Redguard's baseline is lower than other races, that would balance things better. It would also match with the 'adrenaline' description, in giving high burst recovery, but lower nominal recovery.



Extras:

Nightblade gets +15% magicka recovery, +15% stamina recovery, +0% health recovery.

Dragonknight gets +0% magicka recovery, +0% stamina recovery, -20% health recovery.

Sorcerer gets +12% magicka recovery, +0% stamina recovery (but possibly a higher base stamina recovery), +0% health recovery.


I don't have a templar or warden to check. Dragonknight seems to have broken health recovery%, and I'd expect Nord to have a higher baseline health recovery.

This is a beautiful post but I hate to break it to you. Fanboy favorite relequen counts as a melee attack and proc adrenaline rush on the back bar which is one of the reasons why the set overperforms in relation to Ravager.

Androconium

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for some unneeded back and forth. Just a reminder for everyone to keep it civil with the Forum Rules in mind.

Thank you for understanding.

Thank you, however, I don't understand.
Having re-read the forum rules, I didn't see anything that explained what "unneeded back and forth" constituted.

As the only Modified post that I can see relates to "Baiting" I would like to ask that you include the use of an elipses (...) at the end of any discussion Title be classified as baiting as well. Thanks so much.

ArchMikem

susmitds wrote: »

Absolutely agree. Almost every PvE DPS build is based on Redguard sustain. Someone made a comparison to prove that Redguard sustain lets them stay in the fight for 4x the time compared to other races.

And yet whenever you advocate to buff the other Stam races there's always backlash. I've wanted Khajiit to have their Max Stam passive returned to them and everyone would immediately say that would make them too good. Like how would another 5% or 8% Stamina make them OP? ZOS has already nerfed both the Khajiit Crit Chance passive AND Crit chance from other sources and now they're also nerfing Crit chance from Champion Points. When Murkmire comes my StamSorc will be lucky to keep her Crit chance above a flat 50%.

WrathOfInnos

usmcjdking wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I actually remember a while back, when Khajiit was getting an additional racial bonus to be competitive. IIRC it was 6% Max Stamina, which made a lot of sense mathematically to balance the races. At the time, the forums blew up with nerf threads about how they didn’t want to be obligated to play a cat and how it would be too OP. The changes were reverted before that patch went live. That is why we only have one viable race today. Keep up the complaining and soon we’ll have zero.

It's important to know that the only comparative race to Khajiit at this time was Orc and Orc was still a solid 6-7% behind in DPS.

@usmcjdking It’s been awhile, so I could be remembering wrong, but wasn’t Redguard the same then as it is now? AFAIK, Redguard’s 10% Max Stamina has always been within 2% damage output of Khajiit’s 8% crit chance. And even before Morrowind sustain changes, the other Redguard bonuses weren’t completely useless, while Khajiit stealth and health regen typically were for PVE. I have a hard time believing that Khajiit was ever more than 1% DPS ahead of Redguard.

Orc is an interesting one because it’s 4% damage bonus only applies to melee attacks, and even if doing 100% melee (unlikely with hail, caltrops, and poison injection) it still only gives about 3% more DPS due to additive bonus calculations. Their 6% stamina is worth maybe another 2% DPS. I could see them falling between Redguard and Khajiit in some scenarios (still talking Pre-Morrowind), but the differences wouldn’t have been nearly 6-7%, more like 1-2%.

Anyway, correct me if any of my info is incorrect. I’m going mostly by memory of my Khajiit Sorc, Redguard DK, and Orc Nightblade, so I was never able to do a fair side-by-side comparison without class being a big factor (and no target dummies back then for testing), and it’s been a long time since the days we’re referencing.

Katahdin

usmcjdking wrote: »

Does it come as a surprise that you pick a race with no sustain, a proc set with no sustain, an a damage set with no sustain, and a helm set with no sustain...

And we are up in arms about sustain issues? You can't make this *** up.

Most of us picked our race for our characters before the great sustain nerf of Morrowind when sustain was not an issue

In a game where stupid levels of dps is demanded for end game content, switching to a sustain set will lower your dps

Doctordarkspawn

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Less nerfing, more adapting

More like less nerfing more buffing.