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Redguard sustain is ruining overall PvE stamina sustain

  • John_Falstaff
    John_Falstaff
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    @JinMori , you omit that it's both RPG and MMO, so there's competitive factor - here is the other side of pressure I mentioned: pressure for being viable. This factor doesn't stand in single player RPGs, you're omitting that somehow.

    But I already understood your point; you've been told that nobody wants to nerf redguards, but now, as it turns, it's not enough for you - you want redguards to stay on top. ^^ For a moment, I thought that you just want good gameplay for everyone, but no, as usual, it's still about yourself.
  • JinMori
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    @JinMori , you omit that it's both RPG and MMO, so there's competitive factor - here is the other side of pressure I mentioned: pressure for being viable. This factor doesn't stand in single player RPGs, you're omitting that somehow.

    But I already understood your point; you've been told that nobody wants to nerf redguards, but now, as it turns, it's not enough for you - you want redguards to stay on top. ^^ For a moment, I thought that you just want good gameplay for everyone, but no, as usual, it's still about yourself.

    You don;t seem to understand something.

    The only way to have perfect balance is at the expense of flavor, if you removed every passive then every race would be the same, that's perfect balance at the expense of flavour, but if you want to keep the flavor, you can reduce the disparity, but there will always be someone on top of the dps charts, if redguard sustain was nerfed then khajiit would be the next bis race, there is no way to avoid that, other than removing all passives, but at that point, you also will remove uniqueness.

    It doesn't really matter if a race is only 1 % better, people will still prefer that over the "lesser" races, it's like asking would you rather have 0 dollars or 1 dollar, or would you rather have 0 or 20 dollars, regardless, people will still gravitate over the better choice.

    So it's not really about me being selfish, it;s just how reality works, if you want different passives it's impossible to perfectly balance them, you can get close, but never perfect.
    Edited by JinMori on October 2, 2018 2:12PM
  • Callous2208
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    JinMori wrote: »
    @JinMori , you omit that it's both RPG and MMO, so there's competitive factor - here is the other side of pressure I mentioned: pressure for being viable. This factor doesn't stand in single player RPGs, you're omitting that somehow.

    But I already understood your point; you've been told that nobody wants to nerf redguards, but now, as it turns, it's not enough for you - you want redguards to stay on top. ^^ For a moment, I thought that you just want good gameplay for everyone, but no, as usual, it's still about yourself.

    You don;t seem to understand something.

    The only way to have perfect balance is at the expense of flavor, if you removed every passive then every race would be the same, that's perfect balance at the expense of flavour, but if you want to keep the flavor, you can reduce the disparity, but there will always be someone on top of the dps charts, if redguard sustain was nerfed then khajiit would be the next bis race, there is no way to avoid that, other than removing all passives, but at that point, you also will remove uniqueness.

    It doesn't really matter if a race is only 1 % better, people will still prefer that over the "lesser" races, it's like asking would you rather have 0 dollars or 1 dollar, or would you rather have 0 or 20 dollars, regardless, people will still gravitate over the better choice.

    So it's not really about me being selfish, it;s just how reality works, if you want different passives it's impossible to perfectly balance them, you can get close, but never perfect.

    I don't think anyone is asking for perfect balance though. Just that some races be brought up a bit to compete. As it stands now, no stamina favoring race is even close, by a long shot. Some will disagree, these people are misinformed and perhaps never participate in high level pve content.
  • JinMori
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    JinMori wrote: »
    @JinMori , you omit that it's both RPG and MMO, so there's competitive factor - here is the other side of pressure I mentioned: pressure for being viable. This factor doesn't stand in single player RPGs, you're omitting that somehow.

    But I already understood your point; you've been told that nobody wants to nerf redguards, but now, as it turns, it's not enough for you - you want redguards to stay on top. ^^ For a moment, I thought that you just want good gameplay for everyone, but no, as usual, it's still about yourself.

    You don;t seem to understand something.

    The only way to have perfect balance is at the expense of flavor, if you removed every passive then every race would be the same, that's perfect balance at the expense of flavour, but if you want to keep the flavor, you can reduce the disparity, but there will always be someone on top of the dps charts, if redguard sustain was nerfed then khajiit would be the next bis race, there is no way to avoid that, other than removing all passives, but at that point, you also will remove uniqueness.

    It doesn't really matter if a race is only 1 % better, people will still prefer that over the "lesser" races, it's like asking would you rather have 0 dollars or 1 dollar, or would you rather have 0 or 20 dollars, regardless, people will still gravitate over the better choice.

    So it's not really about me being selfish, it;s just how reality works, if you want different passives it's impossible to perfectly balance them, you can get close, but never perfect.

    I don't think anyone is asking for perfect balance though. Just that some races be brought up a bit to compete. As it stands now, no stamina favoring race is even close, by a long shot. Some will disagree, these people are misinformed and perhaps never participate in high level pve content.

    But i never said that i want redguards to be 15 % better than other races (this number is just for example, they aren't 15 % better), i just said don't nerf again for the sake of race balance, bring something else to other races, so they are comparable, but you will never get perfect balance.

    Before morrowind you could play all races and have decent sustain, after morrowind, that's where the redguard only meta started, so what they could do is buff medium armor,m and maybe re introduce the cp passives, even if weaker, so other races will be better off, but redguard will still be king of sustain, because that's what the races attributes are, redguards have very high stamina, which is reflected in their passives.
    Edited by JinMori on October 2, 2018 2:19PM
  • zaria
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    JinMori wrote: »
    @JinMori , well that's what was suggested, no? Basically remove redguard exclusivity, but buff sustain across the board. So, redguard would stay at same sustain as before, but other races would enjoy same level of it as well. It's just another way of getting to the same result, that's all, really. I don't think anyone wants to bring redguards down to being just as miserable as others, everyone's fed up with heavy attacking since Morrowind and want better playstyle.

    The point of redguard IS that you get better sustain, why run redguard when you can just use another race and get the same sustain?

    The point is that you guys just wanna cut out flavor, everything must be streamlined, and then everything loses it;'s value because everything is the same ***.

    Buff medium armor, let other races have more sustain, but the point of redguard is BETTER SUSTAIN compared other races, no one wants morrowind heavy attack meta, but cutting out race attributes, just makes the game even less flavorful.

    Guess what, before morrowind you could run stamina on other races, because you had more sustain, but now it's all redguard exactly because of those nerfs.
    This is the racial benefits of various races in Elder scroll:
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

    Redgards has higher starting endurance in Oblivion and Morrowind, Orc has the same stats. Using Oblivion and Daggerfall as main source here as Daggerfall was very different, redguards has lower endurance than default for one.


    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • John_Falstaff
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    @JinMori , if dark skin, or fur, or scales, and all the lore behind each race is not enough uniqueness for you - then sorry, you're probably playing wrong game. ^^ Achieving uniqueness by making certain races tangibly (and 350 regen above everyone isn't 1%, just for the record) better at doing what game's all about? A competitive multiplayer game? No, doesn't work like that. ^^
  • JinMori
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    @JinMori , if dark skin, or fur, or scales, and all the lore behind each race is not enough uniqueness for you - then sorry, you're probably playing wrong game. ^^ Achieving uniqueness by making certain races tangibly (and 350 regen above everyone isn't 1%, just for the record) better at doing what game's all about? A competitive multiplayer game? No, doesn't work like that. ^^

    You took the 1% too literally, it was just an example.
  • Marcus684
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    JinMori wrote: »
    @JinMori , you omit that it's both RPG and MMO, so there's competitive factor - here is the other side of pressure I mentioned: pressure for being viable. This factor doesn't stand in single player RPGs, you're omitting that somehow.

    But I already understood your point; you've been told that nobody wants to nerf redguards, but now, as it turns, it's not enough for you - you want redguards to stay on top. ^^ For a moment, I thought that you just want good gameplay for everyone, but no, as usual, it's still about yourself.

    You don;t seem to understand something.

    The only way to have perfect balance is at the expense of flavor, if you removed every passive then every race would be the same, that's perfect balance at the expense of flavour, but if you want to keep the flavor, you can reduce the disparity, but there will always be someone on top of the dps charts, if redguard sustain was nerfed then khajiit would be the next bis race, there is no way to avoid that, other than removing all passives, but at that point, you also will remove uniqueness.

    It doesn't really matter if a race is only 1 % better, people will still prefer that over the "lesser" races, it's like asking would you rather have 0 dollars or 1 dollar, or would you rather have 0 or 20 dollars, regardless, people will still gravitate over the better choice.

    So it's not really about me being selfish, it;s just how reality works, if you want different passives it's impossible to perfectly balance them, you can get close, but never perfect.

    I don't think anyone is asking for perfect balance though. Just that some races be brought up a bit to compete. As it stands now, no stamina favoring race is even close, by a long shot. Some will disagree, these people are misinformed and perhaps never participate in high level pve content.

    There is a simpler solution: roll a Redgiard for stam DPS, or use a race change token if you don’t want to do that. If all you care about is the MMO min/max aspect of the game, then it shouldn’t matter to you what race you’re pigeon-holed into for competitive PvE. Then everyone else who likes having the racial flavor can still have their variety too.
  • John_Falstaff
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    @JinMori , well then let's bring everyone within a few percent to one another, not the vast difference like we have now. It's achievable, and I'm sure it will satisfy most players except die-hard meta-minded ones. Reducing differences to the point where player skill matters more than passives is where it's at, I'd say.
  • Heimpai
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    Wood elf is my favorite but because of the stam reason my stamsorc is redguard..my stamblade is mainly pvp so wood elf is great but i noticed it struggles in pve sustain
  • JinMori
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    zaria wrote: »
    JinMori wrote: »
    @JinMori , well that's what was suggested, no? Basically remove redguard exclusivity, but buff sustain across the board. So, redguard would stay at same sustain as before, but other races would enjoy same level of it as well. It's just another way of getting to the same result, that's all, really. I don't think anyone wants to bring redguards down to being just as miserable as others, everyone's fed up with heavy attacking since Morrowind and want better playstyle.

    The point of redguard IS that you get better sustain, why run redguard when you can just use another race and get the same sustain?

    The point is that you guys just wanna cut out flavor, everything must be streamlined, and then everything loses it;'s value because everything is the same ***.

    Buff medium armor, let other races have more sustain, but the point of redguard is BETTER SUSTAIN compared other races, no one wants morrowind heavy attack meta, but cutting out race attributes, just makes the game even less flavorful.

    Guess what, before morrowind you could run stamina on other races, because you had more sustain, but now it's all redguard exactly because of those nerfs.
    This is the racial benefits of various races in Elder scroll:
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Races
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
    http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

    Redgards has higher starting endurance in Oblivion and Morrowind, Orc has the same stats. Using Oblivion and Daggerfall as main source here as Daggerfall was very different, redguards has lower endurance than default for one.


    That is pretty damn strange considering that it also says this: "Redguards hail from the province of Hammerfell. You are part of a dark-skinned people, extremely hardy and quick. Legend has it that the Redguard are innately more proficient with weaponry than any other race. In general, Redguards make excellent warriors."

    It just doesn't make any sense that you have less endurance but also are a very nimble and skilled warrior, you kinda need good stamina for that.
  • John_Falstaff
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    Marcus684 wrote: »
    ...if you don’t want to do that. If all you care about is the MMO min/max aspect of the game, then it shouldn’t matter to you what race you’re pigeon-holed into for competitive PvE. Then everyone else who likes having the racial flavor can still have their variety too.

    The text given in bold is an assumption that doesn't follow from anywhere. If someone wants to participate in endgame content, where does assumption comes from that it's all they care about? Why someone can't care both about staying true to themselves and being competitive? At the same time?
  • ruikkarikun
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    Want to nerf redguard?

    Compensate me 3000 Crowns for race change token for each my and other players characters.
    Then no problem, understand?
    Edited by ruikkarikun on October 2, 2018 2:29PM
  • JinMori
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    @JinMori , well then let's bring everyone within a few percent to one another, not the vast difference like we have now. It's achievable, and I'm sure it will satisfy most players except die-hard meta-minded ones. Reducing differences to the point where player skill matters more than passives is where it's at, I'd say.

    It is possible, i just don;t want to see nerfs to bring a race in line with others, if they do that, than it won't matter anyway, because khajiit will take over, so it will only shift the meta.
  • Vapirko
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    If other races are unplayable due to sustain issues, then wouldn’t nerfing redguard just make it so no race was playable? Stop asking for nerfs.
  • usmcjdking
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    The Redguard complaints in this thread are massively unwarranted.

    Arenaline rush equals about as much sustain as 1`heavy attack every 25 seconds. If you can't manage one heavy and are like"I'M OUT OF STAM" then you need to l2p.
    Edited by usmcjdking on October 2, 2018 2:35PM
    0331
    0602
  • Pops_ND_Irish
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    Thought I had heard everything. Guess not !
  • Juju_beans
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    If Redguards are so OP then why aren't you people playing Redguards ?
    Don't complain and ask for nerfs...create a Redguard and level them up !
  • Xerge
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    The Redguard complaints in this thread are massively unwarranted.

    Arenaline rush equals about as much sustain as 1`heavy attack every 25 seconds. If you can't manage one heavy and are like"I'M OUT OF STAM" then you need to l2p.

    @usmcjdking , youre one of 'those' who enjoy the heavy attack resource management gameplay; or play a nightblade main.

    If the heavy-attack-resource-management gameplay was enjoyable and fun people wouldn't be complaining about it. Why is that difficult to understand for you, I don't know. I feel like the complaint is going way over your head.





  • John_Falstaff
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    @usmcjdking , even assuming your number is right, that's every other rotation. If you're going to tell me that it won't make your DPS drop, then you're not going to be honest. ^^ And I'm not even mentioning how it affects the gameplay of a DPS.

    @Juju_beans , people who don't care about the game they're playing, in fact, do precisely that. Problem is, most people still do care.
    Edited by John_Falstaff on October 2, 2018 2:54PM
  • rootimus
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    Haashhtaag wrote: »
    Maybe if ZOS wouldn’t have nerfed sustain khajiits would still be a thing.

    Meh, you can't nerf Khajiit's awesomely good looks.
    Even on the internet, clear communication is important; it can be the difference between "helping your Uncle Jack off a horse" and "helping your uncle jack off a horse"; the difference between "knowing your s***" and "knowing you're s***".
    Greybeards & Gals - Civilised, laid-back, mature gamers. Beards optional. |
  • usmcjdking
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    @usmcjdking , even assuming your number is right, that's every other rotation. If you're going to tell me that it won't make your DPS drop, then you're not going to be honest. ^^ And I'm not even mentioning how it affects the gameplay of a DPS.

    @Juju_beans , people who don't care about the game they're playing, in fact, do precisely that. Problem is, most people still do care.

    Even assuming it's right?

    792 stam every 5 seconds. HA attack with some points in tenacity returns roughly 3500. Provided adrenaline rush only has perfect uptime with relequen due to time spent on back bar, there is no assumption required.

    Literally one heavy attack every 25 seconds. Acting like ZOS uninstalled your firmware from your computer because you chose Khajiit.
    0331
    0602
  • BuddyAces
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    Cloudless wrote: »
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    Some men just want to see the world nerfed.

    On the other hand, this is how whoever handles race and class balance at ZOS must look like:

    05_guywithaplan.jpg

    Never has a pic been posted as a response more true than this. EVER
    They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866

    I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd
  • Hostee
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    This is what happens when all the kids get participation trophies 🏆
  • John_Falstaff
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    @usmcjdking , decided to sneakily ignore the actual reply in hope that it'll pass like that? ^^ Good attempt, but you have to try harder than that.
  • usmcjdking
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    There are only two races with any outstanding issues - Nord and Breton (and to a degree, Imperial). Redguard sustain addresses neither of those races.
    0331
    0602
  • WrathOfInnos
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    Somehow I doubt this will end with other stamina races getting a buff. Much more likely that the last fun stamina race will be moved to the same trash pile.
  • BuddyAces
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    A lot of us stam folks have been crying about this for quite a while. In fact I was posting in a topic about this subject just yesterday.

    At my gameplay level I am severely gimping myself to go anything but redguard. Why would I want that? Nobody has ever asked to be even with redguard, but narrowing the gap between races should be done.
    They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866

    I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd
  • JobooAGS
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    @JinMori , no, the point of playing redguard is in playing redguard. ^^ You see, that's -whole- point of this thread. There's 'R' in RPG for a good reason, and if everyone was choosing race for passives, nobody would have complaints about redguards - everyone would be just choosing them, what's easier? But some love khajiits, some associate with nords and orcs... and from that, arises pressure between staying what you like and be viable. Only people who enjoy playing redguards right now don't feel that pressure (unless they also like magicka, but that's different topic altogether). So bottom line, point of being redguard is playing the race you like, no more, no less. ^^ Just like with others. Before Morrowind, it was exactly that - redguards didn't see sustain as a point of playing one... because everyone had enough sustain.

    @JobooAGS , I'm not sure if you can reliably proc both infused glyphs on front bar while being swapped to back bar, from DoTs only. Basically you only have two running, twin slashes (ticks every 2 seconds, no?) and sometimes cloak (ticks every 3 seconds). Glyphs proc when they're off cooldown, one at a time if I'm not mistaken? So there might be delays when you're on bow bar and both glyphs are off cooldown - one procs, one will wait up to 2 seconds until it'll proc again.

    Most builds are only on their back bar to drop dots and maybe an ult or a skill like leeching strikes or flames of oblivion, so no more than 5 seconds on that bar, and more often than not, 3 seconds. Hail la caltrops la poison injection is about 3 seconds if weaved properly.

    Point being, you may lose a proc, but overall it is a gain
  • Elsterchen
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    Not again. :(
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