Redguard sustain is ruining overall PvE stamina sustain

WrathOfInnos

I actually remember a while back, when Khajiit was getting an additional racial bonus to be competitive. IIRC it was 6% Max Stamina, which made a lot of sense mathematically to balance the races. At the time, the forums blew up with nerf threads about how they didn’t want to be obligated to play a cat and how it would be too OP. The changes were reverted before that patch went live. That is why we only have one viable race today. Keep up the complaining and soon we’ll have zero.

usmcjdking

What is there to cry about?

There are 5 stam races.

Redguard, Khajiit, Bosmer, Orc and Nord. Orc and Bosmer are definitive PVP favorites with Khajiit being in a respectable but distant 3rd. Redguards aren't too popular in PVP and only people who pick Nord are Skyrim fanboys with 50k HP named Bjorn Svenbjorn and PVP ERPers like myself. For PVE it's pretty much Redguard > Khajiit >>>>>>>>>>>> everything else. The races, outside of Nord who is bottom tier everything, seem to be quite balanced.

DMuehlhausen

The problem is the passives are way to powerful. Passives should never give a clear cut advantage for a race over others. It should be like resist, health, stam, magicka, less stam used when running, under water breathing stuff like that. Nothing that just flat out raises damage like 5% crit or increased regen of a stat.

OtarTheMad

Players are overreacting to be honest, just my opinion. I bet all players who aren't Redguards can still pull DPS numbers way over the minimum required for dungeons/trials, which is like 20-30k. I bet you could go make an Altmer stamblade right now and still do way over the minimum DPS so why put so much pressure on yourself to always be on top? That must be exhausting. So what if Redguard can pull maybe 5k more than you, or sustain longer... you really trust ZOS to handle the nerf correctly? So what if Argonian is better at tanking, doesn't mean I am going to change my Imperial Sorc tank, they're fun. Just enjoy the game. As long as you're at or over 20-30k DPS you can still get trials done quickly, still get speed runs and no deaths, still do dungeons quickly and still show off. I can understand wanting to be competitive (I am too) but don't stress or exhaust yourself over it, it's a game.

ZOS said you can do anything with any race and in reality you can but the issue is that as a player base we got attached to the top races too much and pulled our own hair out because others didn't equal them when honestly they're just fine. Want to make an Altmer tank, go for it... they work fine. My partner has one and I had one. My friend can completely destroy on her magsorc and you know what? It's a Khajiit. Be competitive, but also have fun.

That doesn't mean I agree with the changes ZOS has made to make it where we are asking for orbs, shards or ele drain more or HA more in order to sustain but as long as I am with friends and having fun I am not focused on it that much. I personally think this update might put a tad of pressure on healers since magicka is squishier and sustain is a little more difficult. Let's not forget though that even with these changes we can still do way over the minimum required. This was probably unpopular to say but I thought it had to be said.

GreenHere

Is it really so painful to just put one Stamina Recovery glyph on your necklace, people?

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Players are overreacting to be honest, just my opinion. I bet all players who aren't Redguards can still pull DPS numbers way over the minimum required for dungeons/trials, which is like 20-30k. I bet you could go make an Altmer stamblade right now and still do way over the minimum DPS so why put so much pressure on yourself to always be on top? That must be exhausting. So what if Redguard can pull maybe 5k more than you, or sustain longer... you really trust ZOS to handle the nerf correctly? So what if Argonian is better at tanking, doesn't mean I am going to change my Imperial Sorc tank, they're fun. Just enjoy the game. As long as you're at or over 20-30k DPS you can still get trials done quickly, still get speed runs and no deaths, still do dungeons quickly and still show off. I can understand wanting to be competitive (I am too) but don't stress or exhaust yourself over it, it's a game.

ZOS said you can do anything with any race and in reality you can but the issue is that as a player base we got attached to the top races too much and pulled our own hair out because others didn't equal them when honestly they're just fine. Want to make an Altmer tank, go for it... they work fine. My partner has one and I had one. My friend can completely destroy on her magsorc and you know what? It's a Khajiit. Be competitive, but also have fun.

That doesn't mean I agree with the changes ZOS has made to make it where we are asking for orbs, shards or ele drain more or HA more in order to sustain but as long as I am with friends and having fun I am not focused on it that much. I personally think this update might put a tad of pressure on healers since magicka is squishier and sustain is a little more difficult. Let's not forget though that even with these changes we can still do way over the minimum required. This was probably unpopular to say but I thought it had to be said.

Basically this.

John_Falstaff

@GreenHere , two glyphs, technically. The difference is two glyphs. It's a loss of more than 300 weapon damage. If you enjoy feeling yourself gimped for three hundred weapon damage because of your race, I can respect that. But I don't enjoy it myself.

Mintaka5

What my Altmer MagSorc feels like according to ZOS:



My trash stam builds (not these):
Imperial StamWarden, and yes the sustain is awful, but the netch helps a lot with sustain.
Nord StamPlar, absolute trash stamina sustain (considering how great the stamina perks are on Nords), and only good thing out of it is two-handed damage, but good luck applying enough of it.
Argonian StamDK, absolute garbage.
Dunmer StamBlade, this is one of my favorites, but yeah the stamina resources MUST be managed well or you're screwed.

This:
Redgaurd StamSorc, ridiculous amounts of sustain (bascially don't even have to monitor my stam), fast, decent damage build

In summary, I think the devs want us to excessively manage resources. They are obsessed with making resources expensive, and recovery minimal. Stamina builds are not exclusive to this, because my magicka builds have the same issue except for the Breton race. Recovery in all other races is punishing, not to mention the bugs in recovery I've seen, where I pop a recovery pot, or regen with a skill, and resources jump up slightly, and then drop right after, without even using skills that have resource costs (and no this is not in battle where I may get debuffed by enemy). The only races I can sustain well with are Redguard stamina, and Breton magicka.

I thought it would make sense for me to make up for this lack of recovery, in either CP, gear, enchants, traits, or all of these, but honestly if there is a bump to recovery, it's marginal at best.

ZOS, just make resource recovery across the board viable.

WrathOfInnos

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GreenHere , two glyphs, technically. The difference is two glyphs. It's a loss of more than 300 weapon damage. If you enjoy feeling yourself gimped for three hundred weapon damage because of your race, I can respect that. But I don't enjoy it myself.

It’s usually closer to one stam regen glyph. The Redguard passive is at most 158 stam per second. One regen glyph is base value 169. Depending on build this can get a variety of extra multipliers, which can more than double the regen. Typically a minimum multiplier would be 20% (from potions) + 28% (med armor) + 14% CPs = 62%, resulting in 137 stam per second from a single glyph.

You may also have Minor Endurance (10%), Stam Sorcs passives (20%), racial bonuses (9-21%), Vampire (10%), for up to a 133% bonus, or 197 Stam/s from a single regen glyph.

GreenHere

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GreenHere , two glyphs, technically. The difference is two glyphs. It's a loss of more than 300 weapon damage. If you enjoy feeling yourself gimped for three hundred weapon damage because of your race, I can respect that. But I don't enjoy it myself.

Fair enough. But when you can get 45k dps from a Redguard or 43k dps from a Khajiit, due to nothing aside from sustain differences, I sort of fail to see the issue. Either your dps is more than enough for doing what you want to do, OR you're looking to min/max (which is cool!) and you should just go with the race with the best strengths for what you're after. Hard to agree that anything is being "ruined" by one race having better sustain than other similar (but different) races.

Orcs can run faster. Khajiit can pickpocket easier. Imperials get the most health. Et cetera and so forth. Why does one race's strengths for dps mean that all other races are suddenly compared unfavorably in that one aspect? Why don't we make a fuss over Redguards not having better Spell Resistance? How come they don't have the same Fire Resistance that Dunmer do?

The "everything should be equal in [x] aspect" line of thinking doesn't make sense to me, especially when the differences in question can usually be evened out somewhere with little tradeoff.

NoTimeToWait

And you know what is the problem with these threads? I mained Khajiit Warden since I started playing. And I was the happiest person before I came to the forums. Now I know that not only my class subpar, but my race too.

So, the reasonable move was to make a Redguard stam sorc. So I did. And I hated it. I maxed it out while hating it. I never played it after I reached my 50th lvl and got +5k dps more than my khajiit parse. Also, I kind of ignored PVE since then.

Not because I suck there (I do pretty well, thank you). But because I don't feel satisified anymore with playing any of these chars.

John_Falstaff

@WrathOfInnos , not all those multipliers always apply, and being a vampire is same story as being redguard - if one makes choice he doesn't like, then why not go meta race? Medium also gives passives just partially as 5/2/2 or 6/1 is preferable. So, glyph and a half would be it.

@GreenHere , it's not it. You can do 25k and finish vMoL HM. But you're looking at it from a point of view where you don't even imagine striving for anything larger than you have. The thing is, if you'll ever go to endgame, if you'll even want to make score on leaderboards... then you'll find out that you're denied by birthright. And it doesn't matter that you may never get there: it's the knowledge that you're only good as long as you're not striving for more that puts mental pressure on players. They may never do 50k, but try telling them that they won't ever do it because they're born like that.

OtarTheMad

GreenHere wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GreenHere , two glyphs, technically. The difference is two glyphs. It's a loss of more than 300 weapon damage. If you enjoy feeling yourself gimped for three hundred weapon damage because of your race, I can respect that. But I don't enjoy it myself.

Fair enough. But when you can get 45k dps from a Redguard or 43k dps from a Khajiit, due to nothing aside from sustain differences, I sort of fail to see the issue. Either your dps is more than enough for doing what you want to do, OR you're looking to min/max (which is cool!) and you should just go with the race with the best strengths for what you're after. Hard to agree that anything is being "ruined" by one race having better sustain than other similar (but different) races.

Orcs can run faster. Khajiit can pickpocket easier. Imperials get the most health. Et cetera and so forth. Why does one race's strengths for dps mean that all other races are suddenly compared unfavorably in that one aspect? Why don't we make a fuss over Redguards not having better Spell Resistance? How come they don't have the same Fire Resistance that Dunmer do?

The "everything should be equal in [x] aspect" line of thinking doesn't make sense to me, especially when the differences in question can usually be evened out somewhere with little tradeoff.

^This

I don't get it, I'd understand it if the sustain issues dropped other stamina races DPS to like 15k but when you're just 2k-5k off, it's really not that big of a deal and not going to cause any groups you run with to wipe more than you would usually, if you do at all.

John_Falstaff

@OtarTheMad , the talk is about balance, and not about "how much is enough". It's a competitive game, and while I can understand there will be always some with mindset "we're small people, we don't need more", it's not universal.

OtarTheMad

Also @WrathOfInnos Yes it was back in 2016 that Khajiit passive was going to change and remove the Health Recovery and replace it with Max Stamina 2/4/6%. Altmer also had a change back then as well but none of those changes stuck.

OtarTheMad

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@OtarTheMad , the talk is about balance, and not about "how much is enough". It's a competitive game, and while I can understand there will be always some with mindset "we're small people, we don't need more", it's not universal.

I see your point but at the same time players builds/class choices are being held against them despite the fact that they can pull over 30k DPS.

I just hate to see players going crazy and pulling their hair out and quitting the game just because they lost 2-3k DPS, or worse insta-kicking someone from a dungeon or trial because they come in as a non-meta race despite that they can pull over 40k on it. As competitive as I might be I also realize that fun is important too.

josiahva

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Problem is Redguard sustain is way better than any other stamina race + ofc th highest max stamina passive and with sustain being a major issue in PvE Redguards have become almost a must if you want to reliable play. Also when ZoS balances stamina sustain Redguards oversustain so they have to tone it down making it harder on the other races.

Stamina races are pretty cool and has a lot of options like Woodelf, Khajiht, Orc, Nord, Imperial but without the sustain endgame players just go to Redguard.

The solution is to either make sustain not an issue for other races and let Redguard over sustain or to nerf Redguard sustain and adjust overall sustain accordingly.

You Fool, nerfs are NEVER the solution...ever.

Bigevilpeter

GreenHere wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@GreenHere , two glyphs, technically. The difference is two glyphs. It's a loss of more than 300 weapon damage. If you enjoy feeling yourself gimped for three hundred weapon damage because of your race, I can respect that. But I don't enjoy it myself.

Fair enough. But when you can get 45k dps from a Redguard or 43k dps from a Khajiit, due to nothing aside from sustain differences, I sort of fail to see the issue. Either your dps is more than enough for doing what you want to do, OR you're looking to min/max (which is cool!) and you should just go with the race with the best strengths for what you're after. Hard to agree that anything is being "ruined" by one race having better sustain than other similar (but different) races.

Orcs can run faster. Khajiit can pickpocket easier. Imperials get the most health. Et cetera and so forth. Why does one race's strengths for dps mean that all other races are suddenly compared unfavorably in that one aspect? Why don't we make a fuss over Redguards not having better Spell Resistance? How come they don't have the same Fire Resistance that Dunmer do?

The "everything should be equal in [x] aspect" line of thinking doesn't make sense to me, especially when the differences in question can usually be evened out somewhere with little tradeoff.

There is a difference between sustain and dps, and when there is 6 options of races and one far outclasses the others then there is a problem, of we compare khajiht to woodelf, yeah khajiht can do more damage wood elf have better sustain but the difference isnt huge, but reguards have sustain and damage and all the other passives have little use for a DD.

leepalmer95

Does what race you are doing the same trial for the 12th time with really matter?

Just leave it, pvp got enough nerfs because of pve this patch.

colossalvoids

Sustain is now a class problem not a racial one. Redguard should give extra sustain on top but after most loved Morrowind patch it became a necessity for some classes.
Some of the classes can provide sustain for every race and some just can not. So for now the only solution I see without a class changes it's a cost reduction cp star back or a cp perk mostly similar to adrenaline rush.

El_Borracho

OtarTheMad wrote: »

^This

I don't get it, I'd understand it if the sustain issues dropped other stamina races DPS to like 15k but when you're just 2k-5k off, it's really not that big of a deal and not going to cause any groups you run with to wipe more than you would usually, if you do at all.

I agree. I haven't had any issues running with the Khajiit. Like others have said, if you are consumed with squeezing every ounce of DPS out of a character, then run the Redguard. If not, Khajiit is just fine for end game play

Ashtaris

Scarpion wrote: »

They nerfed sustain across the board in Morrowind. Redguard in lore has the adrenaline rush passive, they are SUPPOSED to have more sustain. If ZOS did not kill PVE sustain in Morrowind, other stamina races would be viable, such as Khajiit. Sustain is so bad at the moment (except on both nightblades) that players are forced to go Redguard.

ZOS should not nerf Redguard, or they are going against the lore. They need to buff other sources of sustain so other classes can sustain and compete with Redguard.

I like many players are tired of nerfs, ZOS needs to start buffing, otherwise everything will become unplayable eventually.

I totally agree with your assessment. ZOS killed sustain for all other Stamina races with Morrowind basically forcing users to go Redguard or GTFO. I hate playing my Kahjiit Stamblade because I’m constantly running out of resources even with Dubious Camaron and weaving heavy’s. My Redguard Stamsorc or Stamblade doesn’t have the same issues. I don’t want to see Redguards nerfed, but I would like to see the sustain of Kahjiit, Woodelf, and other stamina races buffed a bit.

method__01

i strongly support the "no changes to sorc shield" but i dont understand how reduce a race passive will help sorcs or any other race in general?
maybe we should ask for buff in a certain morph/race/ability etc instead nerfing others?

usmcjdking

It's like, borderline sacrilege to even hypothesize using something like Quick Serpent or VO or god forbid a line of regen anywhere on your build. Your build. Which you likely cut and paste from someone else. Who got it from one of the 20 or so theorycrafters who make their information public.

John_Falstaff

@method__01 , if you'll read the starting topic and majority of the thread, you'll find out that's exactly what's proposed - to bring everyone to comfortable redguard-ish level of sustain. ^^ But many people have knee-jerk reaction. Not that I'm blaming them all that much, considering that ZOS is on a nerf spree...

bellanca6561n

Sounds like a recruiter from this bunch....

Massive_Stain

Omg another mouth piece crying for nerfs

Juju_beans

GreenHere wrote: »

Is it really so painful to just put one Stamina Recovery glyph on your necklace, people?


Basically this.

but, but, but what about the DPS ?

Bouldercleave

You all realize that threads like this wind up nerfing the one race or class and not buffing all the other classes, right?

boombazookajd

never mind

Agenericname

method__01 wrote: »

i strongly support the "no changes to sorc shield" but i dont understand how reduce a race passive will help sorcs or any other race in general?
maybe we should ask for buff in a certain morph/race/ability etc instead nerfing others?

I'm not sure that it matters what you ask for in terms of positive or negative effect. The devs have their own goal or vision for the way that this should play. When we point out an inequality they put it in line with what their vision is, not ours. Ask for a buff if you'd like, but you'll likely get a nerf.