PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Kanar

John_Falstaff wrote: »

With cost reductions (values from tooltips, without VO):

* Poison Injection: 1774 stamina
* Venomous Claw: 1010 stamina
* Noxious Breath: 2020 stamina

For simplicity's sake, can assume 10 second rotation, with each skill cast once per rotation. Savings would be 443, 252 and 505 stamina respectively, which amounts to 120 per second, or 240 equivalent regen (or about one regen glyph with armor passives counted in). With VO cost reduction, savings would be even less. And even with VO, a non-redguard stamDK can't sustain light attack Crushing Weapon rotation: two glyphs needed for that. I can't describe how pathetic the change is.

At this point, stamDKs need just one thing from Zenimax: class change token.

If it applies to out-of-class skills like PI, I think it's decent. Maybe we can use trapping webs (if they fix the stupid synergy), and in PvP with bow it will help acid spray and lethal arrow too. In PvE bow/bow using lethal arrow will be much easier to sustain.

It's ok for non-trials builds. And frankly who brings a stamDK to a competitive trial run nowadays anyway? For non-leaderboard it doesn't matter.

BigBragg

So since you are working on bringing Power Lash inline with Crystal Fragments, are you going to increase the range to 28 meters? I don't know about everyone else, but I would consider that a discernible difference.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

John_Falstaff

@Onefrkncrzypope , odd, in one of meeting note threads just a couple of weeks ago, I think it was Joy who mentioned in response to someone that there's no DK rep. Guess it was a misunderstanding of some sort.

ak_pvp

The powerlash stun change was a buff, I was one of the people who put the change forward because:

It is a stun on a multi part setup that can be avoided twice before the power lash is cast and once after. And even if it does get to the final lash:
It is most often used after foss, so they are immune.
It can be dodged
It can be blocked
Therefore, It is wayy too situational, that landing the weaker stun is unexpected and actually harmful in practice and actually harmed the control of the "control and burn" class.


The cost and range change weren't nice, but aren't game breaking. However I sincerely hope that something is changed though, a cost on a 3 part+obviously avoidable, costing melee ability with a cooldown is really annoying tedious/unfun to play.
It frankly needs to proc instantly on immobilizes, as then it'd reduce the setup cost as DK has bad sustain, whilst maintaining its counter in rolls.
It would guarantee a power lash on a fossilize, but not guarantee two (setup+normal both hitting) like when it was undodgable. And it'd streamline the playstyle well into a CC>Exploit feeling and refresh the offense of class that has some gameplay issues in the current fast burst and movement meta.

Can either remove the tie to offbalance, instead just on CC and remove the cooldown, (as no need for it if it can't proc infinitely on offbalance without it) or make DK automatically offbalance on an immobilize with DK/melee abilities, offering new playstyles, but maintaining the cooldown.

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RobGarrett

John_Falstaff

@Kanar , the gist is, if things are seen from that position, then class didn't need any change. You can do majority of content with 30k DPS (including vMoL HM), anyone can pull it, including stamDK, with heavy attack rotation. Can't probably do vCR, but that's general stamina issue, not just DK.

Thing is, no qualitative jump happened. StamDK still can't pull off fun, engaging rotation with Psijic spammable or vMA DW set. (Redguards can, they're 350 regen ahead of everyone else, but that's not making things any less broken.) Weren't competitive before, aren't competitive now. The change was a shot into the void. So... nothing changed, by and large. And what's the point shuffling numbers around if class remains only 'okay for mundane things'?

Maybe in PvP something would change, but I won't feel any quality of life improvement in PvE, so another bleak update with no light in the end of the tunnel, and I'm rather tired of being a bottom feeder among DPS and keeping on waiting and hoping to be among equals.

iRogue32

woo another feedback thread that won't be listened too

tinythinker

Moglijuana wrote: »

I'm honestly confused on where you guys come up with the decisions to continually destroy dks lol. Like seriously, who does your combat testing? A potato?

Onefrkncrzypope

Imho dks need a recovery passive and a boost to damage for the stam

Quantum_V

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thanks for nothing!

Also ,@Quantum_V Tell me, is this really a step in the right direction? Or yet another meme change?

First of all, stamDK poison abilities are already cheaper relative to weapon ability counterparts ( blood craze and brawler comes to mind)
StamDK still has terribly expensive magicka utility and its not even accepted by the devs.

second of all, poison dots are terribly weak in terms of damage and utility compared to bleeds or magicka counterparts.

Third : There are only two abilities that will realistically benefit from these changes in PvP, and 3 in PvE. Nobody uses acid spray. Nobody but like 2 people left on planet earth plays a bow stamDK in PvP, lets get real.


So, with all my respect to you, Can you kindly explain to me, how am I supposed to not feel offended by these ''fake buffs'' I'm seeing?
Its almost as bad as the infamous ''this is a buff if'' from morrowind. This World in Ruin change is just there so that Wrobel can ignore us for yet another 3 months. And the best part is ; You're completely fine with that.

Claws , the dot that is supposed to be about PURE DAMAGE over time, does less damage per tick than a free axe bleed, even with a penetration based build , also doesn't have a heal like blood craze or embers.

Noxious breath , actually took a %6 damage nerf now. I mean, really? Okay, whatever I guess, its already the worst ability ever. I guess 300 damage per tick was too much for us.

I'm not even gonna start on how laughable hardened armor is.

How is that even fair? How is this not mentioned? (Yes I have to ask this to you because zenimax simply ignores me. Only you could maybe make a difference on that, however I'm doubtful of even that now. I'm not even gonna bother tagging Wrobel here because I know he doesn't give a crap, he never did, in his vision this class should lack any offensive capabilities cause that would make it an actual class instead of a bloody meatbag and none of you apparently wants that cause I can't think of any other reason to nerf noxious breath out of all abilities in the game.)

So I ask again, with respect, why should I actually bother giving feedback to you or any other class rep really?

Hey @Ragnarock41!

Trust me, I'm just as disappointed as you... I explained my positioning a bit better on all these changes in the discord, make sure to check that out, man.. There's not a single point in this comment that I disagree with you

StShoot wrote: »

To the class Rep, Taking away a (maybe) useless CC is not a buff and who said the power lash is for free ?!!
First i need my talons or my fozzilise for 3.8k or 2.5 k magica (taloons often dont work due to the 100% uptime of forward momentum), than i need to land a lash for 2.3k.
All that only for a single free attack that can be dodged.... AND HAS A COOLDOWN
how is that compareable to grim focus that gives you 8% more dmg and an insane high dmg procc after 5 light attacks, or to the crystal fragment that proccs with nearly every cast ?

How can you even compare those abilitys, that is just ***

Hey @StShoot!

Read this and you might understand the reasoning behing powerlash stun being removed as a buff:

ak_pvp wrote: »

The powerlash stun change was a buff, I was one of the people who put the change forward because:

It is a stun on a multi part setup that can be avoided twice before the power lash is cast and once after. And even if it does get to the final lash:
It is most often used after foss, so they are immune.
It can be dodged
It can be blocked
Therefore, It is wayy too situational, that landing the weaker stun is unexpected and actually harmful in practice and actually harmed the control of the "control and burn" class.

Removing the powerlash stun effectively means you'll be able to fossilize/leap stun more often which are more valuable CCs as you can proc another powerlash from them (if CD is finished) and you don't miss on a potential root that fossilize provides you, even if you can't immediately proc another powerlash.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@StShoot , thing is - heard it from reps around here - there is no DK class rep. Does not exist. Then again, I'm looking at magsorcs whose rep does exist, and I'm not even sure which of us is less lucky. ^^

Hey @John_Falstaff, pleasure to meet you! haha

zParallaxz

venomsky wrote: »

ty for nothing!

LOL

Ragnarock41

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Thanks for nothing!

Also ,@Quantum_V Tell me, is this really a step in the right direction? Or yet another meme change?

First of all, stamDK poison abilities are already cheaper relative to weapon ability counterparts ( blood craze and brawler comes to mind)
StamDK still has terribly expensive magicka utility and its not even accepted by the devs.

second of all, poison dots are terribly weak in terms of damage and utility compared to bleeds or magicka counterparts.

Third : There are only two abilities that will realistically benefit from these changes in PvP, and 3 in PvE. Nobody uses acid spray. Nobody but like 2 people left on planet earth plays a bow stamDK in PvP, lets get real.


So, with all my respect to you, Can you kindly explain to me, how am I supposed to not feel offended by these ''fake buffs'' I'm seeing?
Its almost as bad as the infamous ''this is a buff if'' from morrowind. This World in Ruin change is just there so that Wrobel can ignore us for yet another 3 months. And the best part is ; You're completely fine with that.

Claws , the dot that is supposed to be about PURE DAMAGE over time, does less damage per tick than a free axe bleed, even with a penetration based build , also doesn't have a heal like blood craze or embers.

Noxious breath , actually took a %6 damage nerf now. I mean, really? Okay, whatever I guess, its already the worst ability ever. I guess 300 damage per tick was too much for us.

I'm not even gonna start on how laughable hardened armor is.

How is that even fair? How is this not mentioned? (Yes I have to ask this to you because zenimax simply ignores me. Only you could maybe make a difference on that, however I'm doubtful of even that now. I'm not even gonna bother tagging Wrobel here because I know he doesn't give a crap, he never did, in his vision this class should lack any offensive capabilities cause that would make it an actual class instead of a bloody meatbag and none of you apparently wants that cause I can't think of any other reason to nerf noxious breath out of all abilities in the game.)

So I ask again, with respect, why should I actually bother giving feedback to you or any other class rep really?

Hey @Ragnarock41!

Trust me, I'm just as disappointed as you... I explained my positioning a bit better on all these changes in the discord, make sure to check that out, man.. There's not a single point in this comment that I disagree with you

StShoot wrote: »

To the class Rep, Taking away a (maybe) useless CC is not a buff and who said the power lash is for free ?!!
First i need my talons or my fozzilise for 3.8k or 2.5 k magica (taloons often dont work due to the 100% uptime of forward momentum), than i need to land a lash for 2.3k.
All that only for a single free attack that can be dodged.... AND HAS A COOLDOWN
how is that compareable to grim focus that gives you 8% more dmg and an insane high dmg procc after 5 light attacks, or to the crystal fragment that proccs with nearly every cast ?

How can you even compare those abilitys, that is just ***

Hey @StShoot!

Read this and you might understand the reasoning behing powerlash stun being removed as a buff:

ak_pvp wrote: »

The powerlash stun change was a buff, I was one of the people who put the change forward because:

It is a stun on a multi part setup that can be avoided twice before the power lash is cast and once after. And even if it does get to the final lash:
It is most often used after foss, so they are immune.
It can be dodged
It can be blocked
Therefore, It is wayy too situational, that landing the weaker stun is unexpected and actually harmful in practice and actually harmed the control of the "control and burn" class.

Removing the powerlash stun effectively means you'll be able to fossilize/leap stun more often which are more valuable CCs as you can proc another powerlash from them and you don't miss on a potential root

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@StShoot , thing is - heard it from reps around here - there is no DK class rep. Does not exist. Then again, I'm looking at magsorcs whose rep does exist, and I'm not even sure which of us is less lucky. ^^

Hey @John_Falstaff, pleasure to meet you! haha

@Quantum_V

I guess I shouldn't be mad at you for no reason.. I'm just angry after waiting so long, again all my respects to you for actually bearing my salt.

John_Falstaff

@Quantum_V , the pleasure's all mine. ^^ And the only regret is that we have to meet on such unhappy occasion. ^^

Galalin

As a DK from beta all the way through here is my advice. The day before patch notes are released you just put a gigantic bottle of KY on your mouse pad. It just makes it easier

ArchMikem

venomsky wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

venomsky wrote: »

i dont think that zos doing any combat tests..... stamdk now best snipe spamming class!

Why? its a ranged ability with cast time, the buff is only for melee abilitys with insant cast

World in Ruin: This ability no longer increases the damage of Poison area of effect abilities by 3/6%. It now reduces the Stamina cost of all Poison abilities by 12/25%. The Flame bonuses of this passive remain unchanged.

One of the main builds of a StamDK was to max Poison damage using Morag Tong. So...why the nerf? If they're trying to help our Sustain by decreasing ability cost here and there, then why did they nerf Sustain in general to begin with?

ruikkarikun

So noone play mage dk PVE with harness shield? Are you all enjoy 3s cast time? (1 second on paper but go check PTS, also imagine lags mob stun, etc etc etc).

Savos_Saren

@Quantum_V @John_Falstaff @Ragnarock41 @zParallaxz @ak_pvp

Gents- am I missing something here?

Draconic Power
Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

Why does this not apply to Twin Slashes, Cleave, Reverse Slice, Puncture, Low Slash, Power Bash, etc?

These are all instant-cast weapon abilities. The description does not say "instant-cast class abilities".

Savos_Saren

ruikkarikun wrote: »

So noone play mage dk PVE with harness shield? Are you all enjoy 3s cast time? (1 second on paper but go check PTS, also imagine lags mob stun, etc etc etc).

You're close. My wife and I tested it with a stopwatch. It's about two seconds to cast. If anyone knows how PVP performs- cast times are ridiculously slow. Not only does casting a shield feel like an enternity- but have you ever tried casting Dark Flare in PVP? Enemies are long gone before the ability casts.

Ragnarock41

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V @John_Falstaff @Ragnarock41 @zParallaxz @ak_pvp

Gents- am I missing something here?

Draconic Power
Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

Why does this not apply to Twin Slashes, Cleave, Reverse Slice, Puncture, Low Slash, Power Bash, etc?

These are all instant-cast weapon abilities. The description does not say "instant-cast class abilities".

wait, It doesn't? I guess my friends are trolling me then. I was told it works. This means stamDk literally got nothing this patch

Onefrkncrzypope

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Quantum_V @John_Falstaff @Ragnarock41 @zParallaxz @ak_pvp

Gents- am I missing something here?

Draconic Power
Elder Dragon: This passive ability now also increases the range of all instant-cast melee abilities 1 meter per rank, in addition to granting Health Recovery for each Draconic Power ability slotted.

Why does this not apply to Twin Slashes, Cleave, Reverse Slice, Puncture, Low Slash, Power Bash, etc?

These are all instant-cast weapon abilities. The description does not say "instant-cast class abilities".

Have you tried with a draconic ability slotted???? Just covering bases

Ocelot9x

Just give stamina dks a deep breath with some other effect attached and I can finally play my main again

JinMori

There's 1 good thing here, eruption will now deal pretty substantial damage

Thraben

StamDKs need a buff in PvP.

With the extermination of the MagSorcs who traditionally provided them with things to reflect, they run out of things they can actually kill, as StamWardens and both Mag and StamNBs become stronger with each patch.

Suryoyo

So how does this range increasing passive work ? We get 1m per draconic power skill slotted ?

Also what if I don't want to put a draconic power skill on the same bar than my flame lash ?

I better use destro skills, they have more range, interrupt, get magicka back if we finish off an enemy, ignore 10% of enemies spell resistance lol
It doesn't feel like DK anymore.

Onefrkncrzypope

Thraben wrote: »

StamDKs need a buff in PvP.

With the extermination of the MagSorcs who traditionally provided them with things to reflect, they run out of things they can actually kill, as StamWardens and both Mag and StamNBs become stronger with each patch.

The problem is that let's say you buff uppercut or heroic slash or any other weapons skill becuase that's what a dks is. Buffing that would probably be better used on another class.

That's is the beautiful curse of the SDK. It's class identity is the open slate you get. Great utility skills and back when sets like hundings and blackrose were meta a sDK really outlasted others.
But cyrodiil is turning into call of duty. It's not satisfying to fight for a good 30-60 secs then lose. That causes major rage but if it's just an instant wipe no one can build enough frustration to get mad.
Meaningless quick encounters because of disgustingly high burst, zero counterplay sets and zergs all killed skilled gameplay. The SDK got left behind because it was about the skilled fight. sdk is a chess piece in a game of call of duty. Until high burst is lowered and stacking in zergs is no longer advantageous, the sdk will be subpar. Or until dks actually finally get some sets that buffs them and no one else........ That will be the day

Narvuntien

i was already happy with my MagDK and then I got a 70% damage boost to eruption. .

I lost 1 metre on whip but now I wont end up in that weird situation where I can whip but not use burning embers.

coplannb16_ESO

Quantum_V wrote: »

Hey all!

I'll be focused on taking a lot of feedback from this thread. Personally, I think most of the changes were in the right direction, but weren't changed fully or correctly.

As far as stamDK goes, it's good to see them starting to take small steps towards the right directions. A couple of changes to passives oriented towards stamDKs are welcome and a good indicator that ZoS is working on creating a more complete poisons synergy gameplay for stamDKs. I do feel changes were underwhelming though, few passives and the net evolution of the class isn't enough, still a decent way from giving stamDKs what they really need.

As far as mDK goes, things went both ways. Good change to burning embers range increase, nice changes regarding ash cloud for PvE DDs and healers. Removing powerlash stun is actually significant buff to mDKs, but quickly counteracted by adding a cost to the skill. MDKs are arguably the only class that runs Equilibrium for competitive sustained DPS in PvE and PvP sustain can be very tricky post battleroar nerf. I don't really understand the reasoning for this change as the only argument provided by ZoS was a sketchy magsorc comparison. Both classes behave and play very differently, using that as argumentation to implement a change like that isn't justified.

Our next meeting with ZoS is schedueled for Tuesday next week, lets do our best to test things on PTS before attacking/praising them. Please keep the feedback coming so that we can still promote more and better changes.

Thanks everyone!

thanks for your work on this issue.

as magDK here the eruption change looks welcome, but thats it basically. My own proposal for embers/claw was to inherit the range of the weapon used (so mDK and stamDK could get some options from range if they are using staffor bow), but I guess that will never happen

as for lash, as you said, the comparison is bull****.

Frags can proc anytime of any magicka skill used without cooldown.

Lash needs:
#1 offbalance (which only lasts 4 seconds now before CD) so you either have to immoblize first, then lash for offbalance, then power lash (3 global CDs rarely happen in pvp without beeing CCed or enemy simply dodge rolling away)
#2 now costs 50% of base skill for ~12% more damage and an unreliable heal (which feels bugged since last patch anyway)
#3 now regardless of whether the power lash was evaded or not it goes on cooldown (yet still showing the PL icon as long as target remains off-balanced regardless of cooldown)
-> wtf?

now both morphs suck incredible, you are better off with Force Pulse all the way...

the ~100 spell damage on arden flame when slotting molten whip needs to be reevaluated, could as well be 400 spell damage

power lash cooldown needs to go, the cost need to go and/or it needs to be undodgable in comparison to the setup time and the immunity window to off-balance OR simply make every second whip be a power lash and get rid of the off-balance prerequisite...

KaiDynasty

Did you read the previous DK feedback before making any changes to the class right? Because i see nothing in the patch that is congruent to the improvements DKs asked, just 1 thing that reduces the cost of some poison skills, for stamina. No words.
No movement buffs for pvp (expect the light armor change that EVERY CLASS CAN HAVE), no changes to have unique buffs to get a good spot in raids (talking about a DD role, since engulfing flames can be used by the tank).

swaggasm

Sustain would be nice in PVE, without the use of equilibrium.

John_Falstaff

Also, folks playing on PTS - could you take a moment and check if the new poison ability cost reduction also reduces cost of out-of-class skills like Poison Injection? Or just DK class skills?

pieratsos

irstarkey57 wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

Here it is. (This will outline Magicka DK, mostly in a PVE pov. Besidess the shield cast time which is ridiculous, and the whip range nerf / cost increase, there isn't too much happening for pvp. )

First of all, as many have stated, playing a magdk has gotten progressively worse and more and more ostracized in COMPETITIVE PVE content. For a while we were completely out dps'ed by stamina. Then we were also not wanted because of "stealing off balance." Throughout that time, melee were slowly put on sideline in favor for ranged, aka magsorc and magblade. Now go look at any leaderboard cloudrest run and ask what they are running. If you don't want to look, let me spoil it for you, all magblades. Even the healers are sorcs to provide liquid lightning synergy for the tank. On a skeleton, self buffed, running my own drain, my best parse was 49.9k. That should be enough to be somewhat viable in trials. Well, its not. My skills are not ranged. Sure, I could go the ele weapon route or Force pulse route instead of whip but what about burning embers and engulfing flames? No. That's fine, I made it work with whip considering I still had harness to shield myself while standing in the danger zone so to speak. Meanwhile, incoming force pulses by my head from everyone else standing at range and relative safety. So this brings us in to another example of how magdk inadvertently gets the short end of the stick on these whole "combat balance changes" across multiple classes. One second shield cast time. Lets imagine going to cast a shield while the mantikora rears up. oops, that was bad timing. How about Rakkat doing his slam. Cursed. See the picture? Don't get me wrong, I think cast time is terrible for any class, but again, just showing why it hurts the magdk in melee range.
So let's continute....WHIP. The last thing we need is to be pigeon holed constantly with being ever closer to the damn boss (especially now with shield cast time). If you guys are hell bent on nerfing the power lash morph of whip, then just get rid of it. You all said it would bring it more in line with a sorc's crystal fragment. WHY ARE YOU ALL THINKING ABOUT OUR CLASS IN TERMS OF A SORCERER? If so, then whats the deal with fossilize and rune cage? Or how about the fact sorcs have two executes and we have none? Meanwhile they can dps from Timbuktu and stay safe from damage. Whip needs a longer range, or even a morph that would give longer range so that we can continue to stay viable guys. If magdk could somehow offer competitive ranged dps, we may stand a chance. The change to eruption is a great step in the right direction but every time we get thrown a bone, two things get taken away. Many bosses in the game have those pretty regular red aoes around them (the dont stand in the red kind). Magdk's can barely just stand on the outer ring of them and get whips off. Though you usually end up spending all the time finding the sweet spot to hit them before the circle dissipates.
I guess if I could sum most of this up, I would say please stop pigeon holing this class into very close melee in a meta that consistently caters to ranged magicka dps. Melee is actually worse for magicka because very often we don't have the stamina to dodge, break free, etc (dangers we encounter from being right by the boss). A ranged whip would be a very viable option. Also, cast times on shields, no guys. You gotta come up with something different. Church.

Are you seriously whining about sorcs? Lmao.

Really? You read that and that’s what you got out of it? Come on dude....

He even used caps to give emphasis on sorcs.