[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

DoctorESO

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Below you'll find the topic points we discussed with the Class Reps during our meeting yesterday. The main goal was to have them to present the biggest pain points and concerns for each class, which we'll be digesting and taking into consideration for any future changes. This is not a list of everything that will be changing, and may not include every piece of feedback that was received. Again, they were asked only to focus on the biggest pain points from the community at large.

Dragonknights

• Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
• Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
• PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
• Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff.
• Several concerns were brought up for Magicka DK:
  • Power Lash misses a lot
  • Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.
  • Sustain needs help
  • Not wanted for melee DPS
• Key abilities like Flame Lash, Burning Breath and Burning embers feel clunky to use (different ranges, cone not hitting hit boxes, et al)

Nightblades

• The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.
• Obvious/bad morph choices that limit diversity. Debilitate, Power Extraction, and Manifestation of Terror for example. Also, some morphs have good ideas but need a bit more. Dark Cloak is a good heal, but minor protection buff is too short for example
• Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.
• Some Nightblades have indicated some non-cloak defense options would help when they do get marked or detect potted.
• Nightblades dominate as DPS, but underperform as tanks pigeonhole them and limit diversity
  • The “sap” tank playstyle, for instance, is no longer possible
• Some players would rather have Agony back than Malevolent Offering.

Sorcerers

• Mobile themed class doesn’t feel mobile. Bolt Escape “whiplash” effect, losing momentum especially up/down hills. Very susceptible to snares/roots. Class should be able to kite better
• Pets in PvP. Hard to control/die/have a mind of their own. Steals buffs from players. Paradox in a way, because in duels a “zookeeper” Sorcerer is a nightmare to fight (especially now they can cast them while CC immune). The more chaotic PvP gets, pets quickly lose their usefulness.
• The post Crystal Frag version has lost a lot of what was once a defining feature. Sorcerer now feel formulaic and boring, especially now that dual wield isn’t really a thing. Destro Reach sorcerers are cookie-cutter and require specific reward weapon, rune cage auto stun while meteor drops feels cheap and is certainly unsatisfying for the target.
• Stamina based sorcerers are unhappy they don’t feel much they get much out of the class as Hurricane is the only damage ability they used.
  • The idea of a stamina Air Atronach morph (ala Ra Kotu from Hel Ra) was mentioned by several people.
  • Also a number of sorcerer passives don’t help the Stamina sorcerer
• Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS
  • Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”
  • Yes and no. Sorcerer has good abilities, but must slot them to play well. For example, Sorcerer and Nightblade both have +8 % magicka boosts, sorcerer needs to slot a skill that does no damage, the Nightblade does not. Also Pets take up dead bar spots
• Masel’s chart has 46% of concern pet-oriented. Aside from boss fights that preclude pets (like Mage in AA), the Twilight tormentor morph was seen as particularly weak and the Clannfear too expensive for taking up two skills and dies to mechanics.

Templars

• Offensive skills are too awkward/impractical/just not very good. Solar Barrage cast time ruins flows of nice DPS rotation. Radiant Destruction execute is a DPS loss. Sweeps channel is long, doesn’t make some DPS rotations, hard to hit targets in PVP.
• Poor stamina management. Makes tanking hard. Makes a long DPS rotation against bosses unsustainable.
  • Repentance needs actual corpses and an enemy not to repent them first. Causes arguments with allies in Teamspeak who gets to use the skill.
• Rune Focus and more generally the “House.” Having to cast and recast an armor buff that doesn’t actually do anything exciting every 8 seconds is frustrating. “House” is too hard to manage because mechanics in PvP and PvE compel movement and healing nerfs make “stand your ground” unmanageable.
• Radial Sweep ultimate. Both morphs. Just not very good. Range is too short, damage is too low, often misses, other non-class ultimates are better/more versatile.
• Only class without a pro-active/preventative defense (no more blinding flashes, no reflect, no non-health scaling shields, etc.) has led to PvP archetype nobody like: the “Healbot” who holds block with sword and shield and hits Breath of Life
• Templar CC is seen as lacking and no AoE root make tanking hard and slow class feel slower
  • Shards not CCing still a sore spot
  • Eclipse CCs enemies without CCing them; ability can sometimes feel worthless vs experienced players
• There is a feeling that a lot of Templar passives are situational, restrictive, or weak.

Wardens

• The Bear. People like it. People are frustrated with how the Warden (good) DPS is so tied to it that when the Bear dies/can’t be controlled/takes up an AoE ultimate option, they feel let down by it. Bear getting CCed a lot was brought up several times.
  • Console players say it’s hard to control because they have to use heavy attacks
• No class-unique form of CC. Players don’t just want a generic stun ala Destro staff, but something awesome that comes from playing a Warden
• As a DPS, Wardens don’t really offer something unique or interesting to a group. So, if their DPS isn’t top notch, there isn’t really a reason to have them in that role.
• The desire to be an Ice-themed DPS was something that got a lot of mention.
• Players feel that the class has so many buff skills that come at the detriment of good combat options (such as an Ice DoT).
  • Coupled with damage skills that don’t offer Wardens tactical options make playing the class stale and hard in PvP (For example Dive [both morphs] just does damage and Growing Swarm morph seen as weak).
• Warden players feel as though some obvious needs have been neglected (non-Bear Magicka DPS, the lack of class CC).

Tanks

• Dragonknights are great tanks, but some tank players feel “forced” to play them rather than say a Warden tank because the Engulfing Flames buff is deemed necessary
  • Wrobel Question: “Why can’t a DK DPS provide this?
  • They can, but magicka DPS is seen as undesirable because this means taking a spot away from a stamina NB, which offers so much more.
  • It’s not an easy problem to solve as we would *like* classes to offer unique things to groups. This issue is when only the DK tanks offers something awesome and none of the other 4 classes offer some alternative awesome thing.
• The Hardened Armor morph is undesirable as the little shield is gone almost immediately after activation.
• Tanks want to aid the group, but the current mechanics of group buffs 1) limit to only 6 players and 2) continue to only hit the same 6 players upon further activations (it’s the old purge bug)
  • My PvP group tested this just last night. A DK igneous weapon only ever hits 6 people in our group and it’s always the same 6 players. Upon this realization, our DK immediately unslotted Igneous Weapons.
• Hit Boxes/lack or reliable means of targeting. Hit boxes are big, this is nice for DPS, but makes it really hard for tanks to taunt/target dangerous adds. The Asylum Sanctorium Saint Llothis for example hides behind a huge Dragon and even if it’s tab-targeted, he’s hard to taunt and interrupt.
• Lack of Gear Diversity. The Ebon / Alkosh combination is still seen as better than anything offered since.
• Templar and Nightblades stamina management

Healers

• Often don’t feel needed. Tank + 3 DPS is seen as more efficient and higher scoring.
• A lot of new Healer toys/mechanics just offer heals, but healers also want to buff their group. For example, the new Cinderstrom Dragonknight morph offers a nice heal, but the skill is really expensive, the area is really small, and doesn’t offer anything to allies except heals that might not even be needed.
• DPS dominates gameplay and when players have enough of it to skip mechanics, healers do not feel part of the team. Relegated to side-kicks
• Healers would like some class identity. People trust templars because they bring something recognizable to raid. What does a sorcerer bring?
• The Force Siphon (both morphs) is seen as “wrong” because everything it provides can be acquired elsewhere more efficiently
  • The double resto staff healer for example is viewed with suspicion
• PvP line of sight checks are too punishing. Small boxes and branches act as impenetrable walls.

Non-class/role related issues

• Defile is very strong.
  • Defile is necessary but it’s very accessible and too easily applied and reapplied:
  • Wrobel Question: Can this be countered by Healing stars in Champion system?
  • It’s hard. Befoul scales a lot better. Befoul in Green tree means players can damage and defile at same time..
  • We talked that it was fine for a player to spec specifically for defile and being strong/effective, but it’s too easy to be an effective defiler without really trying.
  • Unhealthy consequence: players a re forced to build tanky and inexperienced player get deleted.
• More synergies. It was mentioned that there was no need to bring a magicka sorcerer into a competitive raid environment *except* the Conduit synergy. So, more synergies mean more reasons to use perceived non-meta classes. Nightblades, for instance, don’t offer a synergy. It’s not a big deal now because they are DPS meta, but a NB healer is out of luck. Also, before this patch DKs felt unwanted in PvP raids. Now, with the synergy change, DKs feel they make legit contributions with all the synergies they offer. It’s a win-win.
• Some synergies are too finicky. The Trapping Webs synergy from undaunted requires a range and angle that is so narrow it‘s too hard to activate it. Nova, an ultimate that players already feel is too expensive and overshadowed by Warhorn needs to have it’s synergy activated and players can’t do this without moving to the absolute center.
• Sload’s set. On its own and in isolation it’s not too bad. Coupled with things like a defile Set, a Zaan Proc, and a no CP environment it’s too much. Also, this set raises the overall toxicity in PvP because of its perception which I’d argue is a bigger concern than balance (seriously, I average 1 hate tell every 3-4 MONTHS. I got 4 in a single night just using this set).
• Content for anything between 4 and 12 players is desired by many, because 12 is hard to organize and 4 is too little for many groups of friends, would also bring new group compositions.
• Heavy armor still seen as more desirable for PvP, especially for stamina builds. The idea of moving the critical hit passive from the Champion tree to the Light and Medium armor skills was floated around.
• If you are a “stamina” player, there is little distinction between the classes as weapon abilities are predominate. Only the Nightblade feels like a fluid from a stamina perspective. We mused about how some lesser used abilities like the DK Obsidian Shard could be used to help create more of a unique stamina class identity.
• Mobility came up as pain points for three classes (sorcerers, DKs, Templars) and are seen as particularly punishing vs. magicka
  • This perhaps is less an issue with classes as the snare system needs reform
  • Wrobel question: “Does the new Psijic Skills help?”
  • They do, but it’s still a pain point for several reasons
    • Major expedition does not remove snares like Shuffle/Forward Momentum or Mist Form.
    • The Channeled Acceleration has a cast-time (bashable, you’re slower at the time you want most to be faster). The Race Against Time Morph duration is really short.
    • Mist Form is still a lot better because nothing can stop a player from going to point A to point B and gets 75% mitigation to boot.
• More Group oriented passives: They are something that gives what many players want, identity to their class and the feeling they are offering something useful to their group/team.

The following was not discussed during the meeting as we ran out of time, but notes were forwarded to the Dev Team afterwards:

Werewolves

• What werewolves DO NOT want
  • To become overpowered. They realize they teeter on the line.
  • To get the best dps or to become meta, or even to get directly competitive dps. They don’t want a werewolf in every group. Werewolves like feeling special and needing to exert greater effort to achieve the same or even just shy of the same results in PvE.
  • Large, sweeping reworks or changes to core mechanics.
  • For Hircine’s Bounty to scale off of stamina/weapon damage OR to cost stamina. To make it cost stamina would pressure their sustain too much. Stam sustain is already tough on werewolves. And to make it scale off of physical stats would eliminate the hybrid leaning of werewolf builds, turning werewolf build patterns into a mirror of the rest of the stamina meta and requiring damage nerfs to compensate the new builds. For example, Pelinal’s + Fury + 2 Kena (a common build and Caius’ current favorite) would become Fury + Seventh Legion + 2 Kena. Werewolves like their hybridy build patterns the way they are. Do you want to fight a werewolf with 1k more weapon damage than they already have?
• What werewolves DO want
  • Roar to cost magicka. It’s a utility spell.
  • To be a legitimate and playable choice that can somewhat compete with other builds for PvE dps. The werewolf community is split on whether they should be able to tank or not.
  • Quality of life fixes and bug fixes. They want to be updated to the current state of the game.
  • More uptime in werewolf form. Potentially a way to add time to their werewolf form actively, such as by dealing damage or casting werewolf abilities. This might enable werewolf dps in trials where tanks hold aggro, werewolf RP, and running for long distances between fights. When asked if werewolves being able to permawolf would necessarily be perceived as a bad thing, I didn’t really get pushback from werewolves or non-werewolf players alike. Many were unsure if they would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat, though. Werewolves want to play as werewolves without necessarily having to worry about taking damage, pouncing on things, or looking for Devour synergies.
  • More support for pack or group play, such as synergies, cross healing, or unique buffs.
• Top quality of life concerns
  • Can’t res allies
  • Can’t use synergies
  • Can’t sneak
  • Devour synergy requires precise targeting and direct line of sight without other characters in the way, making it clunky and unwieldy to use in fights

Vampires

• Many have requested an option to toggle off vamp appearance
• People consider vampirism incomplete
  • Want more active abilities
  • Want more meaning to vamp stages
  • Want active and deliberate shifting between stages. Want more decision making
  • But people understand that this isn’t a high priority
• Unequal risk/reward between PvE and PvP
  • Dawnbreaker is the main ultimate for ⅗ stamina classes, and fire damage is everywhere. Destro ult + Vicious Death are the main kill tools for large scale play, siege and especially oils are in every keep fight, mDKs deal predominantly fire damage, and this patch has shifted magicka builds more to using fire staves than ever before.
  • PvPers are shifting away from using vamp, as they find it more punishing than beneficial. They don’t consider it “risky” at this point -- it just hurts to be a vamp because the damage types to which you incur weaknesses are so prevalent. The only archetypes which still widely use vamp are gankers, bombers, and immobile magicka things which need mist form to not be pinned down. Gankers and bombers do not really intend to take damage from players, and mDKs and magplars for example get rekt by snares. Magplars can’t realistically spam that purge like people can spam snares, and wings doesn’t have immunity, leaving mDKs pinned back in place as snares are quickly reapplied.

Wow, that is a lot.

So when can we expect changes to start?

GreenSoup2HoT

DoctorESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Below you'll find the topic points we discussed with the Class Reps during our meeting yesterday. The main goal was to have them to present the biggest pain points and concerns for each class, which we'll be digesting and taking into consideration for any future changes. This is not a list of everything that will be changing, and may not include every piece of feedback that was received. Again, they were asked only to focus on the biggest pain points from the community at large.

Dragonknights

• Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
• Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
• PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
• Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff.
• Several concerns were brought up for Magicka DK:
  • Power Lash misses a lot
  • Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.
  • Sustain needs help
  • Not wanted for melee DPS
• Key abilities like Flame Lash, Burning Breath and Burning embers feel clunky to use (different ranges, cone not hitting hit boxes, et al)

Nightblades

• The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.
• Obvious/bad morph choices that limit diversity. Debilitate, Power Extraction, and Manifestation of Terror for example. Also, some morphs have good ideas but need a bit more. Dark Cloak is a good heal, but minor protection buff is too short for example
• Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.
• Some Nightblades have indicated some non-cloak defense options would help when they do get marked or detect potted.
• Nightblades dominate as DPS, but underperform as tanks pigeonhole them and limit diversity
  • The “sap” tank playstyle, for instance, is no longer possible
• Some players would rather have Agony back than Malevolent Offering.

Sorcerers

• Mobile themed class doesn’t feel mobile. Bolt Escape “whiplash” effect, losing momentum especially up/down hills. Very susceptible to snares/roots. Class should be able to kite better
• Pets in PvP. Hard to control/die/have a mind of their own. Steals buffs from players. Paradox in a way, because in duels a “zookeeper” Sorcerer is a nightmare to fight (especially now they can cast them while CC immune). The more chaotic PvP gets, pets quickly lose their usefulness.
• The post Crystal Frag version has lost a lot of what was once a defining feature. Sorcerer now feel formulaic and boring, especially now that dual wield isn’t really a thing. Destro Reach sorcerers are cookie-cutter and require specific reward weapon, rune cage auto stun while meteor drops feels cheap and is certainly unsatisfying for the target.
• Stamina based sorcerers are unhappy they don’t feel much they get much out of the class as Hurricane is the only damage ability they used.
  • The idea of a stamina Air Atronach morph (ala Ra Kotu from Hel Ra) was mentioned by several people.
  • Also a number of sorcerer passives don’t help the Stamina sorcerer
• Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS
  • Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”
  • Yes and no. Sorcerer has good abilities, but must slot them to play well. For example, Sorcerer and Nightblade both have +8 % magicka boosts, sorcerer needs to slot a skill that does no damage, the Nightblade does not. Also Pets take up dead bar spots
• Masel’s chart has 46% of concern pet-oriented. Aside from boss fights that preclude pets (like Mage in AA), the Twilight tormentor morph was seen as particularly weak and the Clannfear too expensive for taking up two skills and dies to mechanics.

Templars

• Offensive skills are too awkward/impractical/just not very good. Solar Barrage cast time ruins flows of nice DPS rotation. Radiant Destruction execute is a DPS loss. Sweeps channel is long, doesn’t make some DPS rotations, hard to hit targets in PVP.
• Poor stamina management. Makes tanking hard. Makes a long DPS rotation against bosses unsustainable.
  • Repentance needs actual corpses and an enemy not to repent them first. Causes arguments with allies in Teamspeak who gets to use the skill.
• Rune Focus and more generally the “House.” Having to cast and recast an armor buff that doesn’t actually do anything exciting every 8 seconds is frustrating. “House” is too hard to manage because mechanics in PvP and PvE compel movement and healing nerfs make “stand your ground” unmanageable.
• Radial Sweep ultimate. Both morphs. Just not very good. Range is too short, damage is too low, often misses, other non-class ultimates are better/more versatile.
• Only class without a pro-active/preventative defense (no more blinding flashes, no reflect, no non-health scaling shields, etc.) has led to PvP archetype nobody like: the “Healbot” who holds block with sword and shield and hits Breath of Life
• Templar CC is seen as lacking and no AoE root make tanking hard and slow class feel slower
  • Shards not CCing still a sore spot
  • Eclipse CCs enemies without CCing them; ability can sometimes feel worthless vs experienced players
• There is a feeling that a lot of Templar passives are situational, restrictive, or weak.

Wardens

• The Bear. People like it. People are frustrated with how the Warden (good) DPS is so tied to it that when the Bear dies/can’t be controlled/takes up an AoE ultimate option, they feel let down by it. Bear getting CCed a lot was brought up several times.
  • Console players say it’s hard to control because they have to use heavy attacks
• No class-unique form of CC. Players don’t just want a generic stun ala Destro staff, but something awesome that comes from playing a Warden
• As a DPS, Wardens don’t really offer something unique or interesting to a group. So, if their DPS isn’t top notch, there isn’t really a reason to have them in that role.
• The desire to be an Ice-themed DPS was something that got a lot of mention.
• Players feel that the class has so many buff skills that come at the detriment of good combat options (such as an Ice DoT).
  • Coupled with damage skills that don’t offer Wardens tactical options make playing the class stale and hard in PvP (For example Dive [both morphs] just does damage and Growing Swarm morph seen as weak).
• Warden players feel as though some obvious needs have been neglected (non-Bear Magicka DPS, the lack of class CC).

Tanks

• Dragonknights are great tanks, but some tank players feel “forced” to play them rather than say a Warden tank because the Engulfing Flames buff is deemed necessary
  • Wrobel Question: “Why can’t a DK DPS provide this?
  • They can, but magicka DPS is seen as undesirable because this means taking a spot away from a stamina NB, which offers so much more.
  • It’s not an easy problem to solve as we would *like* classes to offer unique things to groups. This issue is when only the DK tanks offers something awesome and none of the other 4 classes offer some alternative awesome thing.
• The Hardened Armor morph is undesirable as the little shield is gone almost immediately after activation.
• Tanks want to aid the group, but the current mechanics of group buffs 1) limit to only 6 players and 2) continue to only hit the same 6 players upon further activations (it’s the old purge bug)
  • My PvP group tested this just last night. A DK igneous weapon only ever hits 6 people in our group and it’s always the same 6 players. Upon this realization, our DK immediately unslotted Igneous Weapons.
• Hit Boxes/lack or reliable means of targeting. Hit boxes are big, this is nice for DPS, but makes it really hard for tanks to taunt/target dangerous adds. The Asylum Sanctorium Saint Llothis for example hides behind a huge Dragon and even if it’s tab-targeted, he’s hard to taunt and interrupt.
• Lack of Gear Diversity. The Ebon / Alkosh combination is still seen as better than anything offered since.
• Templar and Nightblades stamina management

Healers

• Often don’t feel needed. Tank + 3 DPS is seen as more efficient and higher scoring.
• A lot of new Healer toys/mechanics just offer heals, but healers also want to buff their group. For example, the new Cinderstrom Dragonknight morph offers a nice heal, but the skill is really expensive, the area is really small, and doesn’t offer anything to allies except heals that might not even be needed.
• DPS dominates gameplay and when players have enough of it to skip mechanics, healers do not feel part of the team. Relegated to side-kicks
• Healers would like some class identity. People trust templars because they bring something recognizable to raid. What does a sorcerer bring?
• The Force Siphon (both morphs) is seen as “wrong” because everything it provides can be acquired elsewhere more efficiently
  • The double resto staff healer for example is viewed with suspicion
• PvP line of sight checks are too punishing. Small boxes and branches act as impenetrable walls.

Non-class/role related issues

• Defile is very strong.
  • Defile is necessary but it’s very accessible and too easily applied and reapplied:
  • Wrobel Question: Can this be countered by Healing stars in Champion system?
  • It’s hard. Befoul scales a lot better. Befoul in Green tree means players can damage and defile at same time..
  • We talked that it was fine for a player to spec specifically for defile and being strong/effective, but it’s too easy to be an effective defiler without really trying.
  • Unhealthy consequence: players a re forced to build tanky and inexperienced player get deleted.
• More synergies. It was mentioned that there was no need to bring a magicka sorcerer into a competitive raid environment *except* the Conduit synergy. So, more synergies mean more reasons to use perceived non-meta classes. Nightblades, for instance, don’t offer a synergy. It’s not a big deal now because they are DPS meta, but a NB healer is out of luck. Also, before this patch DKs felt unwanted in PvP raids. Now, with the synergy change, DKs feel they make legit contributions with all the synergies they offer. It’s a win-win.
• Some synergies are too finicky. The Trapping Webs synergy from undaunted requires a range and angle that is so narrow it‘s too hard to activate it. Nova, an ultimate that players already feel is too expensive and overshadowed by Warhorn needs to have it’s synergy activated and players can’t do this without moving to the absolute center.
• Sload’s set. On its own and in isolation it’s not too bad. Coupled with things like a defile Set, a Zaan Proc, and a no CP environment it’s too much. Also, this set raises the overall toxicity in PvP because of its perception which I’d argue is a bigger concern than balance (seriously, I average 1 hate tell every 3-4 MONTHS. I got 4 in a single night just using this set).
• Content for anything between 4 and 12 players is desired by many, because 12 is hard to organize and 4 is too little for many groups of friends, would also bring new group compositions.
• Heavy armor still seen as more desirable for PvP, especially for stamina builds. The idea of moving the critical hit passive from the Champion tree to the Light and Medium armor skills was floated around.
• If you are a “stamina” player, there is little distinction between the classes as weapon abilities are predominate. Only the Nightblade feels like a fluid from a stamina perspective. We mused about how some lesser used abilities like the DK Obsidian Shard could be used to help create more of a unique stamina class identity.
• Mobility came up as pain points for three classes (sorcerers, DKs, Templars) and are seen as particularly punishing vs. magicka
  • This perhaps is less an issue with classes as the snare system needs reform
  • Wrobel question: “Does the new Psijic Skills help?”
  • They do, but it’s still a pain point for several reasons
    • Major expedition does not remove snares like Shuffle/Forward Momentum or Mist Form.
    • The Channeled Acceleration has a cast-time (bashable, you’re slower at the time you want most to be faster). The Race Against Time Morph duration is really short.
    • Mist Form is still a lot better because nothing can stop a player from going to point A to point B and gets 75% mitigation to boot.
• More Group oriented passives: They are something that gives what many players want, identity to their class and the feeling they are offering something useful to their group/team.

The following was not discussed during the meeting as we ran out of time, but notes were forwarded to the Dev Team afterwards:

Werewolves

• What werewolves DO NOT want
  • To become overpowered. They realize they teeter on the line.
  • To get the best dps or to become meta, or even to get directly competitive dps. They don’t want a werewolf in every group. Werewolves like feeling special and needing to exert greater effort to achieve the same or even just shy of the same results in PvE.
  • Large, sweeping reworks or changes to core mechanics.
  • For Hircine’s Bounty to scale off of stamina/weapon damage OR to cost stamina. To make it cost stamina would pressure their sustain too much. Stam sustain is already tough on werewolves. And to make it scale off of physical stats would eliminate the hybrid leaning of werewolf builds, turning werewolf build patterns into a mirror of the rest of the stamina meta and requiring damage nerfs to compensate the new builds. For example, Pelinal’s + Fury + 2 Kena (a common build and Caius’ current favorite) would become Fury + Seventh Legion + 2 Kena. Werewolves like their hybridy build patterns the way they are. Do you want to fight a werewolf with 1k more weapon damage than they already have?
• What werewolves DO want
  • Roar to cost magicka. It’s a utility spell.
  • To be a legitimate and playable choice that can somewhat compete with other builds for PvE dps. The werewolf community is split on whether they should be able to tank or not.
  • Quality of life fixes and bug fixes. They want to be updated to the current state of the game.
  • More uptime in werewolf form. Potentially a way to add time to their werewolf form actively, such as by dealing damage or casting werewolf abilities. This might enable werewolf dps in trials where tanks hold aggro, werewolf RP, and running for long distances between fights. When asked if werewolves being able to permawolf would necessarily be perceived as a bad thing, I didn’t really get pushback from werewolves or non-werewolf players alike. Many were unsure if they would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat, though. Werewolves want to play as werewolves without necessarily having to worry about taking damage, pouncing on things, or looking for Devour synergies.
  • More support for pack or group play, such as synergies, cross healing, or unique buffs.
• Top quality of life concerns
  • Can’t res allies
  • Can’t use synergies
  • Can’t sneak
  • Devour synergy requires precise targeting and direct line of sight without other characters in the way, making it clunky and unwieldy to use in fights

Vampires

• Many have requested an option to toggle off vamp appearance
• People consider vampirism incomplete
  • Want more active abilities
  • Want more meaning to vamp stages
  • Want active and deliberate shifting between stages. Want more decision making
  • But people understand that this isn’t a high priority
• Unequal risk/reward between PvE and PvP
  • Dawnbreaker is the main ultimate for ⅗ stamina classes, and fire damage is everywhere. Destro ult + Vicious Death are the main kill tools for large scale play, siege and especially oils are in every keep fight, mDKs deal predominantly fire damage, and this patch has shifted magicka builds more to using fire staves than ever before.
  • PvPers are shifting away from using vamp, as they find it more punishing than beneficial. They don’t consider it “risky” at this point -- it just hurts to be a vamp because the damage types to which you incur weaknesses are so prevalent. The only archetypes which still widely use vamp are gankers, bombers, and immobile magicka things which need mist form to not be pinned down. Gankers and bombers do not really intend to take damage from players, and mDKs and magplars for example get rekt by snares. Magplars can’t realistically spam that purge like people can spam snares, and wings doesn’t have immunity, leaving mDKs pinned back in place as snares are quickly reapplied.

Wow, that is a lot.

So when can we expect changes to start?

It takes so long to scroll to the bottom of this post on mobile just to see you say wow
Lol.

Ragnarock41

JinMori wrote: »

And also one other thing that i disagree 100%, healers not useful? Dps is the only thing relevant? WHAT?

You do realize that the only reason why dps can do 60 k + st in trial bosses IS because the healers and tank allows it?

for majority of the pve content they are irrelevant sadly. Which is why tanks and healers are especially rare in this game.

DoctorESO wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Below you'll find the topic points we discussed with the Class Reps during our meeting yesterday. The main goal was to have them to present the biggest pain points and concerns for each class, which we'll be digesting and taking into consideration for any future changes. This is not a list of everything that will be changing, and may not include every piece of feedback that was received. Again, they were asked only to focus on the biggest pain points from the community at large.

Dragonknights

• Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
• Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
• PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
• Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff.
• Several concerns were brought up for Magicka DK:
  • Power Lash misses a lot
  • Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.
  • Sustain needs help
  • Not wanted for melee DPS
• Key abilities like Flame Lash, Burning Breath and Burning embers feel clunky to use (different ranges, cone not hitting hit boxes, et al)

Nightblades

• The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.
• Obvious/bad morph choices that limit diversity. Debilitate, Power Extraction, and Manifestation of Terror for example. Also, some morphs have good ideas but need a bit more. Dark Cloak is a good heal, but minor protection buff is too short for example
• Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.
• Some Nightblades have indicated some non-cloak defense options would help when they do get marked or detect potted.
• Nightblades dominate as DPS, but underperform as tanks pigeonhole them and limit diversity
  • The “sap” tank playstyle, for instance, is no longer possible
• Some players would rather have Agony back than Malevolent Offering.

Sorcerers

• Mobile themed class doesn’t feel mobile. Bolt Escape “whiplash” effect, losing momentum especially up/down hills. Very susceptible to snares/roots. Class should be able to kite better
• Pets in PvP. Hard to control/die/have a mind of their own. Steals buffs from players. Paradox in a way, because in duels a “zookeeper” Sorcerer is a nightmare to fight (especially now they can cast them while CC immune). The more chaotic PvP gets, pets quickly lose their usefulness.
• The post Crystal Frag version has lost a lot of what was once a defining feature. Sorcerer now feel formulaic and boring, especially now that dual wield isn’t really a thing. Destro Reach sorcerers are cookie-cutter and require specific reward weapon, rune cage auto stun while meteor drops feels cheap and is certainly unsatisfying for the target.
• Stamina based sorcerers are unhappy they don’t feel much they get much out of the class as Hurricane is the only damage ability they used.
  • The idea of a stamina Air Atronach morph (ala Ra Kotu from Hel Ra) was mentioned by several people.
  • Also a number of sorcerer passives don’t help the Stamina sorcerer
• Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS
  • Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”
  • Yes and no. Sorcerer has good abilities, but must slot them to play well. For example, Sorcerer and Nightblade both have +8 % magicka boosts, sorcerer needs to slot a skill that does no damage, the Nightblade does not. Also Pets take up dead bar spots
• Masel’s chart has 46% of concern pet-oriented. Aside from boss fights that preclude pets (like Mage in AA), the Twilight tormentor morph was seen as particularly weak and the Clannfear too expensive for taking up two skills and dies to mechanics.

Templars

• Offensive skills are too awkward/impractical/just not very good. Solar Barrage cast time ruins flows of nice DPS rotation. Radiant Destruction execute is a DPS loss. Sweeps channel is long, doesn’t make some DPS rotations, hard to hit targets in PVP.
• Poor stamina management. Makes tanking hard. Makes a long DPS rotation against bosses unsustainable.
  • Repentance needs actual corpses and an enemy not to repent them first. Causes arguments with allies in Teamspeak who gets to use the skill.
• Rune Focus and more generally the “House.” Having to cast and recast an armor buff that doesn’t actually do anything exciting every 8 seconds is frustrating. “House” is too hard to manage because mechanics in PvP and PvE compel movement and healing nerfs make “stand your ground” unmanageable.
• Radial Sweep ultimate. Both morphs. Just not very good. Range is too short, damage is too low, often misses, other non-class ultimates are better/more versatile.
• Only class without a pro-active/preventative defense (no more blinding flashes, no reflect, no non-health scaling shields, etc.) has led to PvP archetype nobody like: the “Healbot” who holds block with sword and shield and hits Breath of Life
• Templar CC is seen as lacking and no AoE root make tanking hard and slow class feel slower
  • Shards not CCing still a sore spot
  • Eclipse CCs enemies without CCing them; ability can sometimes feel worthless vs experienced players
• There is a feeling that a lot of Templar passives are situational, restrictive, or weak.

Wardens

• The Bear. People like it. People are frustrated with how the Warden (good) DPS is so tied to it that when the Bear dies/can’t be controlled/takes up an AoE ultimate option, they feel let down by it. Bear getting CCed a lot was brought up several times.
  • Console players say it’s hard to control because they have to use heavy attacks
• No class-unique form of CC. Players don’t just want a generic stun ala Destro staff, but something awesome that comes from playing a Warden
• As a DPS, Wardens don’t really offer something unique or interesting to a group. So, if their DPS isn’t top notch, there isn’t really a reason to have them in that role.
• The desire to be an Ice-themed DPS was something that got a lot of mention.
• Players feel that the class has so many buff skills that come at the detriment of good combat options (such as an Ice DoT).
  • Coupled with damage skills that don’t offer Wardens tactical options make playing the class stale and hard in PvP (For example Dive [both morphs] just does damage and Growing Swarm morph seen as weak).
• Warden players feel as though some obvious needs have been neglected (non-Bear Magicka DPS, the lack of class CC).

Tanks

• Dragonknights are great tanks, but some tank players feel “forced” to play them rather than say a Warden tank because the Engulfing Flames buff is deemed necessary
  • Wrobel Question: “Why can’t a DK DPS provide this?
  • They can, but magicka DPS is seen as undesirable because this means taking a spot away from a stamina NB, which offers so much more.
  • It’s not an easy problem to solve as we would *like* classes to offer unique things to groups. This issue is when only the DK tanks offers something awesome and none of the other 4 classes offer some alternative awesome thing.
• The Hardened Armor morph is undesirable as the little shield is gone almost immediately after activation.
• Tanks want to aid the group, but the current mechanics of group buffs 1) limit to only 6 players and 2) continue to only hit the same 6 players upon further activations (it’s the old purge bug)
  • My PvP group tested this just last night. A DK igneous weapon only ever hits 6 people in our group and it’s always the same 6 players. Upon this realization, our DK immediately unslotted Igneous Weapons.
• Hit Boxes/lack or reliable means of targeting. Hit boxes are big, this is nice for DPS, but makes it really hard for tanks to taunt/target dangerous adds. The Asylum Sanctorium Saint Llothis for example hides behind a huge Dragon and even if it’s tab-targeted, he’s hard to taunt and interrupt.
• Lack of Gear Diversity. The Ebon / Alkosh combination is still seen as better than anything offered since.
• Templar and Nightblades stamina management

Healers

• Often don’t feel needed. Tank + 3 DPS is seen as more efficient and higher scoring.
• A lot of new Healer toys/mechanics just offer heals, but healers also want to buff their group. For example, the new Cinderstrom Dragonknight morph offers a nice heal, but the skill is really expensive, the area is really small, and doesn’t offer anything to allies except heals that might not even be needed.
• DPS dominates gameplay and when players have enough of it to skip mechanics, healers do not feel part of the team. Relegated to side-kicks
• Healers would like some class identity. People trust templars because they bring something recognizable to raid. What does a sorcerer bring?
• The Force Siphon (both morphs) is seen as “wrong” because everything it provides can be acquired elsewhere more efficiently
  • The double resto staff healer for example is viewed with suspicion
• PvP line of sight checks are too punishing. Small boxes and branches act as impenetrable walls.

Non-class/role related issues

• Defile is very strong.
  • Defile is necessary but it’s very accessible and too easily applied and reapplied:
  • Wrobel Question: Can this be countered by Healing stars in Champion system?
  • It’s hard. Befoul scales a lot better. Befoul in Green tree means players can damage and defile at same time..
  • We talked that it was fine for a player to spec specifically for defile and being strong/effective, but it’s too easy to be an effective defiler without really trying.
  • Unhealthy consequence: players a re forced to build tanky and inexperienced player get deleted.
• More synergies. It was mentioned that there was no need to bring a magicka sorcerer into a competitive raid environment *except* the Conduit synergy. So, more synergies mean more reasons to use perceived non-meta classes. Nightblades, for instance, don’t offer a synergy. It’s not a big deal now because they are DPS meta, but a NB healer is out of luck. Also, before this patch DKs felt unwanted in PvP raids. Now, with the synergy change, DKs feel they make legit contributions with all the synergies they offer. It’s a win-win.
• Some synergies are too finicky. The Trapping Webs synergy from undaunted requires a range and angle that is so narrow it‘s too hard to activate it. Nova, an ultimate that players already feel is too expensive and overshadowed by Warhorn needs to have it’s synergy activated and players can’t do this without moving to the absolute center.
• Sload’s set. On its own and in isolation it’s not too bad. Coupled with things like a defile Set, a Zaan Proc, and a no CP environment it’s too much. Also, this set raises the overall toxicity in PvP because of its perception which I’d argue is a bigger concern than balance (seriously, I average 1 hate tell every 3-4 MONTHS. I got 4 in a single night just using this set).
• Content for anything between 4 and 12 players is desired by many, because 12 is hard to organize and 4 is too little for many groups of friends, would also bring new group compositions.
• Heavy armor still seen as more desirable for PvP, especially for stamina builds. The idea of moving the critical hit passive from the Champion tree to the Light and Medium armor skills was floated around.
• If you are a “stamina” player, there is little distinction between the classes as weapon abilities are predominate. Only the Nightblade feels like a fluid from a stamina perspective. We mused about how some lesser used abilities like the DK Obsidian Shard could be used to help create more of a unique stamina class identity.
• Mobility came up as pain points for three classes (sorcerers, DKs, Templars) and are seen as particularly punishing vs. magicka
  • This perhaps is less an issue with classes as the snare system needs reform
  • Wrobel question: “Does the new Psijic Skills help?”
  • They do, but it’s still a pain point for several reasons
    • Major expedition does not remove snares like Shuffle/Forward Momentum or Mist Form.
    • The Channeled Acceleration has a cast-time (bashable, you’re slower at the time you want most to be faster). The Race Against Time Morph duration is really short.
    • Mist Form is still a lot better because nothing can stop a player from going to point A to point B and gets 75% mitigation to boot.
• More Group oriented passives: They are something that gives what many players want, identity to their class and the feeling they are offering something useful to their group/team.

The following was not discussed during the meeting as we ran out of time, but notes were forwarded to the Dev Team afterwards:

Werewolves

• What werewolves DO NOT want
  • To become overpowered. They realize they teeter on the line.
  • To get the best dps or to become meta, or even to get directly competitive dps. They don’t want a werewolf in every group. Werewolves like feeling special and needing to exert greater effort to achieve the same or even just shy of the same results in PvE.
  • Large, sweeping reworks or changes to core mechanics.
  • For Hircine’s Bounty to scale off of stamina/weapon damage OR to cost stamina. To make it cost stamina would pressure their sustain too much. Stam sustain is already tough on werewolves. And to make it scale off of physical stats would eliminate the hybrid leaning of werewolf builds, turning werewolf build patterns into a mirror of the rest of the stamina meta and requiring damage nerfs to compensate the new builds. For example, Pelinal’s + Fury + 2 Kena (a common build and Caius’ current favorite) would become Fury + Seventh Legion + 2 Kena. Werewolves like their hybridy build patterns the way they are. Do you want to fight a werewolf with 1k more weapon damage than they already have?
• What werewolves DO want
  • Roar to cost magicka. It’s a utility spell.
  • To be a legitimate and playable choice that can somewhat compete with other builds for PvE dps. The werewolf community is split on whether they should be able to tank or not.
  • Quality of life fixes and bug fixes. They want to be updated to the current state of the game.
  • More uptime in werewolf form. Potentially a way to add time to their werewolf form actively, such as by dealing damage or casting werewolf abilities. This might enable werewolf dps in trials where tanks hold aggro, werewolf RP, and running for long distances between fights. When asked if werewolves being able to permawolf would necessarily be perceived as a bad thing, I didn’t really get pushback from werewolves or non-werewolf players alike. Many were unsure if they would like werewolves maintaining werewolf form outside of combat, though. Werewolves want to play as werewolves without necessarily having to worry about taking damage, pouncing on things, or looking for Devour synergies.
  • More support for pack or group play, such as synergies, cross healing, or unique buffs.
• Top quality of life concerns
  • Can’t res allies
  • Can’t use synergies
  • Can’t sneak
  • Devour synergy requires precise targeting and direct line of sight without other characters in the way, making it clunky and unwieldy to use in fights

Vampires

• Many have requested an option to toggle off vamp appearance
• People consider vampirism incomplete
  • Want more active abilities
  • Want more meaning to vamp stages
  • Want active and deliberate shifting between stages. Want more decision making
  • But people understand that this isn’t a high priority
• Unequal risk/reward between PvE and PvP
  • Dawnbreaker is the main ultimate for ⅗ stamina classes, and fire damage is everywhere. Destro ult + Vicious Death are the main kill tools for large scale play, siege and especially oils are in every keep fight, mDKs deal predominantly fire damage, and this patch has shifted magicka builds more to using fire staves than ever before.
  • PvPers are shifting away from using vamp, as they find it more punishing than beneficial. They don’t consider it “risky” at this point -- it just hurts to be a vamp because the damage types to which you incur weaknesses are so prevalent. The only archetypes which still widely use vamp are gankers, bombers, and immobile magicka things which need mist form to not be pinned down. Gankers and bombers do not really intend to take damage from players, and mDKs and magplars for example get rekt by snares. Magplars can’t realistically spam that purge like people can spam snares, and wings doesn’t have immunity, leaving mDKs pinned back in place as snares are quickly reapplied.

Wow, that is a lot.

So when can we expect changes to start?

Did you really had to quote the whole thing though?

technohic

Omg! You guys are just as annoying quoting them quoting the entire thing. They need to put a character limit on posts.

Savos_Saren

Gents- for DK, I noticed three of the main “pain points” were missing from these notes:

-Flames of Oblivion (reversion)
-DK executes
-Stamina whip (apparently this was talked about- but left out of the notes)

Any news on these?

Were they discussed and accidentally left out of the notes?

LonePirate

Who are the DK reps? Do they even play the class? The DK feedback sounds like it came from players who started playing the class a couple of weeks ago and have spent very little time with them in PVP, dungeons and trials. Any hopes I had of them helping to improve the class have now evaporated, not that they had any chance of success in the first place given ZOS' longstanding hatred of the class.

Gilvoth

LonePirate wrote: »

Who are the DK reps? Do they even play the class? The DK feedback sounds like it came from players who started playing the class a couple of weeks ago and have spent very little time with them in PVP, dungeons and trials. Any hopes I had of them helping to improve the class have now evaporated, not that they had any chance of success in the first place given ZOS' longstanding hatred of the class.

i think the same exact thing about those nightblade comments.

none of what was spoken about nightblades is true, infact the opinions stated about nightblades and the changes they are looking at, is based on a very small group of people and none of the rest of us agree with the nightblade changes requested.

Morgul667

Really think this is a good job
Mmust have taken you guys lots of time

Well done, thanks

Masel

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Who are the DK reps? Do they even play the class? The DK feedback sounds like it came from players who started playing the class a couple of weeks ago and have spent very little time with them in PVP, dungeons and trials. Any hopes I had of them helping to improve the class have now evaporated, not that they had any chance of success in the first place given ZOS' longstanding hatred of the class.

i think the same exact thing about those nightblade comments.

none of what was spoken about nightblades is true, infact the opinions stated about nightblades and the changes they are looking at, is based on a very small group of people and none of the rest of us agree with the nightblade changes requested.

Is over 100 replies a small group? I don't think so. Think whatever you want, but if the majority of feedback concerned these aspects, then we'll talk about it.

And if so many disagree, why is the majority of comments we get that we did a good job?

Morgul667

Masel92 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Who are the DK reps? Do they even play the class? The DK feedback sounds like it came from players who started playing the class a couple of weeks ago and have spent very little time with them in PVP, dungeons and trials. Any hopes I had of them helping to improve the class have now evaporated, not that they had any chance of success in the first place given ZOS' longstanding hatred of the class.

i think the same exact thing about those nightblade comments.

none of what was spoken about nightblades is true, infact the opinions stated about nightblades and the changes they are looking at, is based on a very small group of people and none of the rest of us agree with the nightblade changes requested.

Is over 100 replies a small group? I don't think so. Think whatever you want, but if the majority of feedback concerned these aspects, then we'll talk about it.

And if so many disagree, why is the majority of comments we get that we did a good job?

You cant please everybody, it is not possible

from what I read here, you did combine key issues. I didnt expect much but you guys did give me a true pleasant surprise

Then it is up to ZOS to deal with them, please surprise me ZOS

Maryal

Masel92 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Who are the DK reps? Do they even play the class? The DK feedback sounds like it came from players who started playing the class a couple of weeks ago and have spent very little time with them in PVP, dungeons and trials. Any hopes I had of them helping to improve the class have now evaporated, not that they had any chance of success in the first place given ZOS' longstanding hatred of the class.

i think the same exact thing about those nightblade comments.

none of what was spoken about nightblades is true, infact the opinions stated about nightblades and the changes they are looking at, is based on a very small group of people and none of the rest of us agree with the nightblade changes requested.

Is over 100 replies a small group? I don't think so. Think whatever you want, but if the majority of feedback concerned these aspects, then we'll talk about it.

And if so many disagree, why is the majority of comments we get that we did a good job?

There are several million people that play this game. Of that amount, relatively few venture to the forms - it has a reputation of being toxic when it comes to anything regarding builds, dps, class performance, skills, abilities, passives, etc. When someone complains about this, the stereotypical response is usually something along the lines of 'if you can't take the heat (yada, yada, yada).'

The forums seem to have evolved into an extension of pvp where the weapons of choice include insults, belittling comments, ridicule, etc. To too many people on the forums, their idea of 'meaningful dialog' is about winning and loosing - they want to win and will try to jam their viewpoint down another person's throat, it's about them and their friends posting snide remarks when someone disagrees. That type of behavior goes around and around and around and ultimately gets you nowhere ... like a dog chasing it's tail.

Is 100 people a small group? Depends on what it's being compared to. If you are comparing that number to the number of people who read the forums (or a particular topic, but do not post on it), then, I would say that's a pretty small number. For too many people, posting on the forums is a waste of time ... it's an effort in futility ... so they don't.

Note: I don't mean to imply that everyone who posts on the forums treats it as an extension of pvp (because not everyone is like that). The problems associated with the 'pvp' nature of the forums is not unique to the ESO community. The long and short of it is this: until the pvp'ish nature of the forums subsides, input will be limited. It would be better for ZOS to send out more questionnaires to players, but they (ZOS) should do a little promo first so people knew to expect it and how giving feedback can help ZOS make improvements to the game.

Biro123

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

Masel

Biro123 wrote: »

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

This is false actually, I will post statistics concerning the share of pve/pvp as well later today, it varies pretty greatly between classes, pvp/pve and roles

Biro123

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

This is false actually, I will post statistics concerning the share of pve/pvp as well later today, it varies pretty greatly between classes, pvp/pve and roles

Ah, ok. If you also have the info represented separately and are using it, then all good.

Masel

Biro123 wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Just a thought on the process/approach being used (that's kind of my job so stuff like this sometimes stands out).

Those piecharts, I wonder if we need different ones for pve/pvp.. If these are a significant driver in what areas should be looked at first, I fear that pve will always prioritise PvP, simply because there are more pve players, and therefore more pve-related responses.

Good stuff overall though.

This is false actually, I will post statistics concerning the share of pve/pvp as well later today, it varies pretty greatly between classes, pvp/pve and roles

Ah, ok. If you also have the info represented separately and are using it, then all good.

It varies per class actually, nightblades had a higher share of pvp, while others had a pretty much equal participation. It's likely because nightblades are in a very good spot in PvE at the moment, but we definitely took that into account!

Hammy01

I am not sure if this is a major pain point with others as much as it is me but could someone please look into the issue of CC immunity or lack there of from NPCs? This really becomes an issue when fighting multiple NPCs, To give you an example just not more than 15 minutes ago I fought 3 NPCs in Coldharbor and the first one knocked me down so I broke free and just as I got up off the ground one of the other NPCs did the exact same thing... I had no CC immunity at all. Plus anyone that has tried to capture Cyrodiil resources by themselves will also understand that NPCs give no CC immunity.

pieratsos

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Who are the DK reps? Do they even play the class? The DK feedback sounds like it came from players who started playing the class a couple of weeks ago and have spent very little time with them in PVP, dungeons and trials. Any hopes I had of them helping to improve the class have now evaporated, not that they had any chance of success in the first place given ZOS' longstanding hatred of the class.

i think the same exact thing about those nightblade comments.

none of what was spoken about nightblades is true, infact the opinions stated about nightblades and the changes they are looking at, is based on a very small group of people and none of the rest of us agree with the nightblade changes requested.

Well if it was up to you, NBs would be in sneak permanently and one shot everyone with a light attack out of cloak so yeah its safe to say that no sane person can actually agree with you.

aeowulf

Any under-represented class (DK healer as a prime example, but not the only one) is not really going to show up as much of a concern The graphs, whilst nice, do not separate the classes into roles. Maybe the pain points should be split into class-roles.

It really shows up as some of the concerns are role relevant only. For example NB sustain is very different from a dps to tank. One gets efficient use of the executioner passive, regen passive and siphoning skill, the other gets very inefficient/none of those. Again, not just NB here.

Then there is racial sustain, an argonian/redgaurd is less likely to say their class has sustain issues, as an example. Also role dependent (a DPS can pretty much choose when to heavy attack, a tank can't) etc

It's a complete minefield.

I think ZoS need to pay a bit more attention to all under represented classes. Summerset was a step in the right direction, but really not enough. There are some classes need to have some significant upgrades in some roles.

Masel

aeowulf wrote: »

Any under-represented class (DK healer as a prime example, but not the only one) is not really going to show up as much of a concern The graphs, whilst nice, do not separate the classes into roles. Maybe the pain points should be split into class-roles.

It really shows up as some of the concerns are role relevant only. For example NB sustain is very different from a dps to tank. One gets efficient use of the executioner passive, regen passive and siphoning skill, the other gets very inefficient/none of those. Again, not just NB here.

Then there is racial sustain, an argonian/redgaurd is less likely to say their class has sustain issues, as an example. Also role dependent (a DPS can pretty much choose when to heavy attack, a tank can't) etc

It's a complete minefield.

I think ZoS need to pay a bit more attention to all under represented classes. Summerset was a step in the right direction, but really not enough. There are some classes need to have some significant upgrades in some roles.

I have statistics on all of the abovementioned scenarios, but the sample size wasn't big enough to actually get reliable statistics on role-specific feedback. What we did tell them is that healers of other classes do not feel like they bring something unique, so they need ways to distinguish themselves from templars and wardens for example.

Tasear

aeowulf wrote: »

Any under-represented class (DK healer as a prime example, but not the only one) is not really going to show up as much of a concern The graphs, whilst nice, do not separate the classes into roles. Maybe the pain points should be split into class-roles.

It really shows up as some of the concerns are role relevant only. For example NB sustain is very different from a dps to tank. One gets efficient use of the executioner passive, regen passive and siphoning skill, the other gets very inefficient/none of those. Again, not just NB here.

Then there is racial sustain, an argonian/redgaurd is less likely to say their class has sustain issues, as an example. Also role dependent (a DPS can pretty much choose when to heavy attack, a tank can't) etc

It's a complete minefield.

I think ZoS need to pay a bit more attention to all under represented classes. Summerset was a step in the right direction, but really not enough. There are some classes need to have some significant upgrades in some roles.

That's also where human factor comes in. Where we evaulte concerns in different scenarios with data being given. Also Masel said, eventually their will be more pie charts with bigger samples. If nothing else, I believe their is a lot of methods to express concerns. We are doing our best so your voices can be heard.

Savos_Saren

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Gents- for DK, I noticed three of the main “pain points” were missing from these notes:

-Flames of Oblivion (reversion)
-DK executes
-Stamina whip (apparently this was talked about- but left out of the notes)

Any news on these?

Were they discussed and accidentally left out of the notes?

Any answers to this?

Galarthor

Seriously? Nobody is bothered by the fact that stamina mitigation tools (Dodge, Block, Sprint) work in lag but magicka tools (Heals, Shields, Cloak, Streak) do not? I know the majority of players are PvE players and they don't suffer from lag as much as PvP players do. But given that the majority of the PvP community is playing in situations of constant lag this should at least have been addressed. And given that the stamina tools are not affected by lag, the solution for the problem already exists and just has to be applied to magicka abilities as well.

BohnT

Galarthor wrote: »

Seriously? Nobody is bothered by the fact that stamina mitigation tools (Dodge, Block, Sprint) work in lag but magicka tools (Heals, Shields, Cloak, Streak) do not? I know the majority of players are PvE players and they don't suffer from lag as much as PvP players do. But given that the majority of the PvP community is playing in situations of constant lag this should at least have been addressed. And given that the stamina tools are not affected by lag, the solution for the problem already exists and just has to be applied to magicka abilities as well.

Oh boy you haven't played stam right?
Nothing is working correctly in lag, things go through dodge/block, vigor is one of the most unreliable skills in lag.
The only combination that works great is stamnb with shuffle, cloak and dodgeroll against ranged builds because the game fails to keep track of the 3 immunity windows in lag which makes things hard.

Everyone gets [removed profanity] by Lag both offensive and defensive wise

Galarthor

BohnT wrote: »

Oh boy you haven't played stam right?
Nothing is working correctly in lag, things go through dodge/block, vigor is one of the most unreliable skills in lag.
The only combination that works great is stamnb with shuffle, cloak and dodgeroll against ranged builds because the game fails to keep track of the 3 immunity windows in lag which makes things hard.

Everyone gets [removed profanity] by Lag both offensive and defensive wise

Dodge and block work far better than Heals and Shields for example. That's why magicka builds tend to dodge or block in laggy situations instead of using a heal or shield. I don't know how they are treated differently code-wise, but the fact of the matter is, if I see damage incoming in laggy situation and press a shield I get hit by the damage before my shield is applied. Oftentimes it takes 2-4 sec (Vivec EU primetime) for the shield to apply after the HP is diminished. If, however, I dodge or block instead of using a shield I either evade or mitigate the damage. In fact, when I dodge right before the damage hits me it still is being evaded. Good luck achieving that with any other mitigation tool. So naturally magicka builds will resort to using dodge and block over their inherent mitigation tool. However, they are not meant to do this and run out of stamina very quickly. Which puts them at a disadvantage over stamina builds.

I purposefully chose shields over heals as an example b/c it illustrates the issue far better as heals are generally meant to be used after you take the damage not before.

You are at least partially right though: as far as I can tell, offensive wise we are all getting screwed equally.

Savos_Saren

Also as posted from the notes:

"If you are a “stamina” player, there is little distinction between the classes as weapon abilities are predominate. Only the Nightblade feels like a fluid from a stamina perspective. We mused about how some lesser used abilities like the DK Obsidian Shard could be used to help create more of a unique stamina class identity."

I like that idea for DKs. It could offer up a stamina option and somewhat of a stamina heal for StamDKs. (and it's still a decent ranged CC)

Conversely, I'd like to see the magicka-based version, Stone Giant, become flame damage and act as a semi-execute for mDKs.

(Or vice-versa for both morphs)

Masel

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Gents- for DK, I noticed three of the main “pain points” were missing from these notes:

-Flames of Oblivion (reversion)
-DK executes
-Stamina whip (apparently this was talked about- but left out of the notes)

Any news on these?

Were they discussed and accidentally left out of the notes?

Any answers to this?

If you look at the pie chart for dks, execute was a part of it. We told them that stam dks lack stamina morphs and that the stamwhip suggestion and the suggestion of a DoT-Amplifying execute passive was mentioned often. We didn't discuss flames of oblivion specifically, but we only had two hours and we were already right on time to finish...

Savos_Saren

@Masel92

Groovy. Thanks for the update.

shadowofnarsil

Ankaridan wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

It's been a long time since we had a thread like this with consistent and value points.

Good work and first edition of the rep program!!

Regardless of the actual points themselves, I want to echo this.

Seeing these notes and the discussions/conversations centered around them is a huge positive for communication between players and devs. I hope this trend continues to develop because having the opportunity to see this upfront is uplifting.

Even if the changes don't happen, the player base can see that thought and discussions were behind the decision, as opposed to a void of silence where we are left speculating.

This level of communication is a very good thing.

^^^^^This. I actually haven’t even made it through the entire thread yet, but wanted to post this nonetheless. I play as a stam NB (DPS) exclusively, and the transparency in these discussions is fantastic.

Ashamray

Well done. Amusing how people don't understand that this is not rep's opinions only but our own as well.

aeowulf

@Masel92 @Tasear

Thank you for adressing my concern that the class-role combos that are under represented by the playerbase will not be under represented going forward. There is a reason they are under represented and it's this that needs addressing.

Any class pidgeon holed into a single role is loosing 2/3 of it's capability before it even starts to highlight areas where it is only a few % different. I feel DPS (& i'm bundling mag & stam as one here) is a lot more balanced between classes than the balancing of healing of tanking roles between classes.