[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

Integral1900

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Great points, but nothing was mentioned about 2h imbalance in pve. The 2h light attack nerf was unecessary. Was this discussed at all?

Forceful should crit again. What was the reason for removing its crit?

This, oh this. Please

There was a single patch, long, long ago, when two handed weapons were on a par with dual wield... it’s been a long time since we could say that. They need help if only to add a little variety to stamina dps, right now this whole dual wield thing is a total variety bottleneck.

Vapirko

Edit: nevermind what I said about passives.

Would still like to see more of a rework with bound armaments concerning the fact that our regen and stat pool isn’t that good without BA slotted on both bars.

rfennell_ESO

So we went through all this and it's distillation is buff sorcs?

LOL

technohic

Masel92 wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

The question Wroebel made about bar space being insufficient actually brings to mind a rather important point.

There's too many skills in ESO whose value comes from being slotted, thanks to the large ammount of "When you have X ability slotted" passives so many classes have. Specially Sorcerers and Templars.

I recently started to play Magicka DD Templar after years playing healer, and the Ancient Knowledge Passive summed to the Piercing Spear, Spear Wall, and Burning Light passives makes my bar setup incredibly restricted. I rarely actually use more than two skills in my bar. I rarely even use the ultimate in my main bar since it's often just there to activate passive boosts.

Giving Templars and Sorcerers more passives that are active at all times could really help.

This was basically the conclusion... You have to slot too many things on too little bar space.

To this point, anyone ever think buffs are too big that they demand a bar slot? Still seems we have too many buffs in this game

SorataArisugawa

Joy_Division wrote: »

@first_kodiak @Derra @SorataArisugawa

OK there is a serious miscommunication here and I can see how that my explanation is the cause of it.

Main point: Sorcerer sustain is a Pain point in PvE is on the list It's there. It's there because we class reps agree Dark Conversion is not a satisfactory solution to this pain point. If I felt otherwise, it wouldn't be on the list.

What I was trying to convey was that I think it was a legitimate question by the devs to challenge us why the sorcerers skill devoted for the sustain wouldn't work. I don't think the devs should just roll over and accept everything the players or we throw at them. They should ask hard questions. They should challenge us. Just because I understand where the devs are coming from does not mean I agree with their assessment or disagree with the very pain point that is on the list. It means I am OK in a discussion where people want to know more or why a readily available alternative is not good enough. In fact, I respect that. I'd be worried if we didn't get push back because that would suggest to me the other side doesn't have an intellectual spine.

That's all I was trying to say. I DONT think Dark Conversion is a end-game competitive means for PvE sustain. I DO think people can make it work to have good (albeit not BiS or great) parse (indeed as I said I've seen them) so I do understand why the devs would challenge us here. So I'm totally fine with them doing that. I can see how in my attempt to say I'm fine with them challenging us, I gave the wrong impression and not addressed your concerns.

So, to sum up:

1. I and the other reps do think PvE sorcerer sustain is a pain point
2. This was commuciated to the devs
3. When the devs challenged us, we stuck to our guns and said yes Dark Conversion is a good ability, however slotting it is going to create other issues and not solve the problem
4. Apologize for the confusion

Thanks for that you clarified that.

Just one last note on that:

I think it was a legitimate question by the devs to challenge us why the sorcerers skill devoted for the sustain wouldn't work. I don't think the devs should just roll over and accept everything the players or we throw at them. They should ask hard questions. They should challenge us.

I agree with you, that they should question everything doubtful, complicated or what ever issue, that is not easy to decide. Thats the right way to do it.
Maybe Mr. Wrobel didn't understand at first which case of sustain is the problem, then I will not complain. BUT if he know that it is about raiding an pure DPS situations, then he should know, whats up, and that dark deal doesn't help. Despide it is his job, it shows lack of understanding of the game. And then it is not right, that he asked that question. In this case, he should listen more at the first place.

Transairion

Liofa wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We gave this list to Devs during the meeting. @stileanima made this especially for Warden Bear but it is basically same thing for all pets including the ones that proc from item sets.

1. The Mage's "Chain Lighthing" (the Bear attracts this mechanic and can easily kill nearby teammates)
2. The Serpent's "World Shaper" (the Bear will die to this if it gets hit, and while you can control it so it moves from it, doing so is a massive DPS loss)
3. Llothis' "Defiling Blast" (if the Bear is hit by 2 or more ticks of this, it will die)
4. Llothis' ground AOE (if the Bear stands in this for any extended period, it will die)
5. Olms' "Storm the Heavens" (the Bear attracts this mechanic and, if mobile while doing so, can kill other teammates that it runs over)
6. Any boss mechanics that stun, knock back, etc., such as the Assembly General's stomp, the Hunter Killers tail swipes, the Pinnacle Factotum's shock AOE. The Bear will become stunned by these and other attacks, resulting in a DPS loss.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Chain Lightning" from the Mage changed to no longer target pets way back in Clockwork City, along with the actually-in-Patch-Notes Warrior's Starfall? Since then people still continue to tell me "Chain Lightning will kill the group if you use pets", which it very clearly did in the past...

... but every time since CWC I've used pets (up to five at once!) against the Mage and Chain Lightning isn't wiping the group like it did before: in fact I've dumped Antronach on top of players and ran pets through them to try and kill people if the mechanic is still working as before but I've seen nothing to indicate pets are chaining lightning still. Previously when I did use pets and they chained, people would drop like flies as they moved around the battle. I'm a PetSorc (2 pets + Antronach ult) and this has been my experiance since CWC, so it is possible only the Warden Bear is still chaining? World Shaper does absolutely oneshot pets regardless of any changes, but I can't comment on vAS.


Was it also mentioned at all that Sorc/Warden pets don't teleport with the player in certain instances (due to instant-combat activation upon travel), such as Aetherian Archives teleport pads and vSO's Mantikora pools? In almost every instance they have to be toggled off and resummoned from scratch as they never join the player until combat ends.

Wing

•Heavy armor still seen as more desirable for PvP, especially for stamina builds. The idea of moving the critical hit passive from the Champion tree to the Light and Medium armor skills was floated around.

okay, hold on now.

I was happy with just about everything I have read up to this point but this is annoying.

heavy armor passives have been gutted patch after patch, I LOVE heavy armor, I don't wear it anymore, but I loved the idea of it. I now tank and pvp in medium fortified brass because the heavy armor passives are complete shite.

TWO HEAVY SETS make up the majority of all heavy armor in pvp:
-Duroks
-Fury

that's it.
that's why people were heavy armor.
if these two sets were medium armor you would see a massive amount of medium armor and far less heavy.

I would love to be able to wear heavy armor again, but if you want to stack on more medium armor buffs to make my medium brass more effective then it already is. . .im not going to stop you.

sucks for heavy to be nerfed over and over because of two sets *shakes head*

usmguy1234

Masel92 wrote: »

Ooh pretty!

Jimmy_The_Fixer

Great post, at least the root/snare problem is on the radar.

Wing

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

When every class in the game feels they're not mobile enough, maybe the problem is all of the roots and snares being thrown around with no diminishing returns.

especially with them being just in addition to good skills (blood craze, etc.) instead of skills specifically for snaring

ManDraKE

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.

of all the ways that you can change incap, that's is probably the worst. A CC needs to be reliable, on PvP timming a CC is pretty much mandatory in order to get a kill agaisnt a competent player, and our other CCs are magika based (fear and stun from cloak, plus agaisnt some builds like a stamsorc, a stun from cloak using meele attacks is pretty much imposible). That healh mechanic is really bad, think another way.

I can see from a mile a away that this "suggestion" came from magblades and non-nighblade players.

Lieblingsjunge

Seeing the templar list makes me happy! Now let's hope something's gonna change and that it's not only empty words. :-)

themaddaedra

Transairion wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We gave this list to Devs during the meeting. @stileanima made this especially for Warden Bear but it is basically same thing for all pets including the ones that proc from item sets.

1. The Mage's "Chain Lighthing" (the Bear attracts this mechanic and can easily kill nearby teammates)
2. The Serpent's "World Shaper" (the Bear will die to this if it gets hit, and while you can control it so it moves from it, doing so is a massive DPS loss)
3. Llothis' "Defiling Blast" (if the Bear is hit by 2 or more ticks of this, it will die)
4. Llothis' ground AOE (if the Bear stands in this for any extended period, it will die)
5. Olms' "Storm the Heavens" (the Bear attracts this mechanic and, if mobile while doing so, can kill other teammates that it runs over)
6. Any boss mechanics that stun, knock back, etc., such as the Assembly General's stomp, the Hunter Killers tail swipes, the Pinnacle Factotum's shock AOE. The Bear will become stunned by these and other attacks, resulting in a DPS loss.

Was it also mentioned at all that Sorc/Warden pets don't teleport with the player in certain instances (due to instant-combat activation upon travel), such as Aetherian Archives teleport pads and vSO's Mantikora pools? In almost every instance they have to be toggled off and resummoned from scratch as they never join the player until combat ends.

That’s a straight good point. It also happens on way to vHoF 1st boss, pets stay behind for a long time, you just have to resummon them.

I had no chance to test pets on Mage since CwC, thanks for clarifying it.

Ragnaroek93

Sounds good overall but would like to also see some changes to bleeds, overwhelming surge and zaan.

JobooAGS

ManDraKE wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.

of all the ways that you can change incap, that's is probably the worst. A CC needs to be reliable, on PvP timming a CC is pretty much mandatory in order to get a kill agaisnt a competent player, and our other CCs are magika based (fear and stun from cloak, plus agaisnt some builds like a stamsorc, a stun from cloak using meele attacks is pretty much imposible). That healh mechanic is really bad, think another way.

I can see from a mile a away that this "suggestion" came from magblades and non-nighblade players.

You realize that incap is melee too right? And like you said there are other stuns/ccs that are in your disposal.

batters92

Transairion wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "Chain Lightning" from the Mage changed to no longer target pets way back in Clockwork City, along with the actually-in-Patch-Notes Warrior's Starfall? Since then people still continue to tell me "Chain Lightning will kill the group if you use pets", which it very clearly did in the past...

pets are no longer the inital target of chain lightning, thats correct. however it can still jump over to them and reach into another melee camp

mr_wazzabi

@masel92

Was there any discussion about the unnecessary 2h light attack nerf, which adds more to the imbalance of pve stam weapons?

How about the fact that forceful doesn't crit?

Masel

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

@masel92

Was there any discussion about the unnecessary 2h light attack nerf, which adds more to the imbalance of pve stam weapons?

How about the fact that forceful doesn't crit?

I agree with what you said, but that point wasn't discussed, sadly. I had to remember so many things and it just slipped through my radar. I will definitely include it in the next one because I really think that 2h nerf was unjustified.

The forceful crit thing is an example of things that they fixed that never needed a fix. It was nice because cleave was the clear advantage of 2h, but that sort of ruined it.

mr_wazzabi

Masel92 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

@masel92

Was there any discussion about the unnecessary 2h light attack nerf, which adds more to the imbalance of pve stam weapons?

How about the fact that forceful doesn't crit?

I agree with what you said, but that point wasn't discussed, sadly. I had to remember so many things and it just slipped through my radar. I will definitely include it in the next one because I really think that 2h nerf was unjustified.

The forceful crit thing is an example of things that they fixed that never needed a fix. It was nice because cleave was the clear advantage of 2h, but that sort of ruined it.

@masel92 thanks!

What about stam dps's lack of survivability in hard mode trials? The lack of shields and squishiness of stam vs mag in pve is a huge pain point. There's a reason why I'm flawlessed vma on 3 magicka characters but 0 stam.

JinMori

And also one other thing that i disagree 100%, healers not useful? Dps is the only thing relevant? WHAT?

You do realize that the only reason why dps can do 60 k + st in trial bosses IS because the healers and tank allows it?

GreenSoup2HoT

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nightblades

• The Cloak-Detect play-counterplay is too extreme. Either cloak is *really* strong if a player can disappear with impunity or is *really* weak when the player can not disappear at all and their main skill feels useless. Need more of a middle ground.
• Obvious/bad morph choices that limit diversity. Debilitate, Power Extraction, and Manifestation of Terror for example. Also, some morphs have good ideas but need a bit more. Dark Cloak is a good heal, but minor protection buff is too short for example
• Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.
• Some Nightblades have indicated some non-cloak defense options would help when they do get marked or detect potted.
• Nightblades dominate as DPS, but underperform as tanks pigeonhole them and limit diversity
  • The “sap” tank playstyle, for instance, is no longer possible
• Some players would rather have Agony back than Malevolent Offering.

Vampires

• Many have requested an option to toggle off vamp appearance
• People consider vampirism incomplete
  • Want more active abilities
  • Want more meaning to vamp stages
  • Want active and deliberate shifting between stages. Want more decision making
  • But people understand that this isn’t a high priority
• Unequal risk/reward between PvE and PvP
  • Dawnbreaker is the main ultimate for ⅗ stamina classes, and fire damage is everywhere. Destro ult + Vicious Death are the main kill tools for large scale play, siege and especially oils are in every keep fight, mDKs deal predominantly fire damage, and this patch has shifted magicka builds more to using fire staves than ever before.
  • PvPers are shifting away from using vamp, as they find it more punishing than beneficial. They don’t consider it “risky” at this point -- it just hurts to be a vamp because the damage types to which you incur weaknesses are so prevalent. The only archetypes which still widely use vamp are gankers, bombers, and immobile magicka things which need mist form to not be pinned down. Gankers and bombers do not really intend to take damage from players, and mDKs and magplars for example get rekt by snares. Magplars can’t realistically spam that purge like people can spam snares, and wings doesn’t have immunity, leaving mDKs pinned back in place as snares are quickly reapplied.

Cloak middle ground will have to be cloak dot purge. Details in spoiler.

Cloak middle ground has to be some sort of cleanse. The thing about nightblades is we should have low healing. We used to be able to cleanse dots and debuffs with dark cloak before imperial city dlc came out. After the release you needed to play so heavily in the effects of cloak to suppress dots or else you could not handle the pressure. There is a reason most stamina nightblades tend to go over to heavy Armour to handle the pressure from dots. Theres a reason why most people call magicka nightblades "sorc-blades" because they would shield stack to handle the dot pressure.

I suggest cloak be reworked so that it removes 2 DoT's from you when you cast cloak. That way if you are hard countered by cloak you can still take a lot of pressure off of you and not waste all that magicka for nothing.

Nigthblades will still be vulnerable since debuffs will not be purged. The old dark cloak was 100% overpowered. This will be a middle ground with this new change.

No mention how Mass Hysteria is overloaded? Cc/maim and snare. Remove the snare so that one of the most frustrating cc's in game is less toxic to play against.

Agony should come back. It was a very important tool for both stamina and magicka nightblades. It gave us an option over mass hysteria that was ranged. Sometimes i would use it as a melee stamina nightblade to cc my opponent who i could not get close to (mine camping sorcs or templars standing in their house).


Vampire points hit the money. Id like to see the old invis bats make a comeback though. Nobody uses the new reworked clouding swarm. Vampire should be squishy and die to fire in my opinion. Make it so vampires take more fire damage from only basic abilities. To many procs deal fire and would give them a middle ground.

One thing i suggest is if fire damage is only increased against basic abilities, the undeath passive should not effect wards or people blocking. Undeath is simply to strong and if no procs or flame based ultimates had increased flame damage against vampires, undeath would need to be changed.

I didnt see anything about feeding in pvp. I personally really like the old vampire stage system compared to the new one.


@ZOS_Wrobel

If you would like to further discuss anything with me personally feel free to pm me. Im all for making a balanced game and im unbiased towards all classes.

Masel

JinMori wrote: »

And also one other thing that i disagree 100%, healers not useful? Dps is the only thing relevant? WHAT?

You do realize that the only reason why dps can do 60 k + st in trial bosses IS because the healers and tank allows it?

Trials are the only scenario where healers are actually necessary, that's what we talked about.

ManDraKE

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.

of all the ways that you can change incap, that's is probably the worst. A CC needs to be reliable, on PvP timming a CC is pretty much mandatory in order to get a kill agaisnt a competent player, and our other CCs are magika based (fear and stun from cloak, plus agaisnt some builds like a stamsorc, a stun from cloak using meele attacks is pretty much imposible). That healh mechanic is really bad, think another way.

I can see from a mile a away that this "suggestion" came from magblades and non-nighblade players.

You realize that incap is melee too right? And like you said there are other stuns/ccs that are in your disposal.

You really didn't understand anything i said. Please read again.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

No mention how Mass Hysteria is overloaded? Cc/maim and snare. Remove the snare.

so when you fear a guy with major expedition he will randomly run 20 meters away from you and you won't be able to land a single hit on him? Great suggestion bro.

Neoauspex

Move befoul to the blue tree.

GreenSoup2HoT

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.

of all the ways that you can change incap, that's is probably the worst. A CC needs to be reliable, on PvP timming a CC is pretty much mandatory in order to get a kill agaisnt a competent player, and our other CCs are magika based (fear and stun from cloak, plus agaisnt some builds like a stamsorc, a stun from cloak using meele attacks is pretty much imposible). That healh mechanic is really bad, think another way.

I can see from a mile a away that this "suggestion" came from magblades and non-nighblade players.

You realize that incap is melee too right? And like you said there are other stuns/ccs that are in your disposal.

You really didn't understand anything i said. Please read again.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

No mention how Mass Hysteria is overloaded? Cc/maim and snare. Remove the snare.

so when you fear a guy with major expedition he will randomly run 20 meters away from you and you won't be able to land a single hit on him? Great suggestion bro.

You do know that fear only reduces your movement speed after you cc break right? Most of the time its gap closer snares that keep people from running 20 feet away after being feared.

Taking away the snare only makes the cc less toxic for everyone. Everyone complains about snares, well why does nobody talk about the most used cc in cryodill that happens to snare you after you cc break?

JobooAGS

ManDraKE wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Incapacitating Strike. Seen as an overloaded and does too much. Reverting original mechanic of stunning when target has higher health was a popular opinion.

of all the ways that you can change incap, that's is probably the worst. A CC needs to be reliable, on PvP timming a CC is pretty much mandatory in order to get a kill agaisnt a competent player, and our other CCs are magika based (fear and stun from cloak, plus agaisnt some builds like a stamsorc, a stun from cloak using meele attacks is pretty much imposible). That healh mechanic is really bad, think another way.

I can see from a mile a away that this "suggestion" came from magblades and non-nighblade players.

You realize that incap is melee too right? And like you said there are other stuns/ccs that are in your disposal.

You really didn't understand anything i said. Please read again

You dont understand your own post, your arguement is that a cc should be reliable. Cloak into surprise attack is a reliable cc as you not only cc, but you apply major fracture, apply off balance which means 10% more damage, and can follow up with an incap. Mass hysteria is one of the best ccs in the game, it is unblockable, undodgable, applies a hefty snare, and applies minor maim. Cloak to sa, fear, and incap are all melee range ccs

bloodthirstyvampire

Stamblades are only good for pvp and shouldn't be fixed, thanks for clarifying.

mr_wazzabi

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

Stamblades are only good for pvp, thanks for clarifying

And vma for those that memorize all the spawns. This is a pain point of stam characters in general. We can dish out damage equal or slightly higher than magicka, but squishy AF with no shields. It takes twice the skill to play a stam dps

olsborg

At the end of the day, it all doesnt rly matter as long as they keep failing to fix the one and only thing that matter. Lagg. You pvp half the time with 200+ ping and the other half with 100 ping that rly feels like 500 due to 2s long ccbreaks and weapon swaps. Theres a tiny little window in the morning where the ping and performance is actually good.

Derra

@Joy_Division already said it - i think it was a problem of understanding for me personally.

The way you put the dark conversion issue leaves me with nothing to really complain about.