[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

Ragnarock41

''Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE''

I believe this is probably said for the utility part of this ability or this is a typo error.(N.Breath provides aoe major fracture, good for providing utility to your stamina buddies, but done better by stamdens, so there is no point) ,and it does really underwhelming damage.

underwhelming to the point that I don't even remember seeing this ability in my recap since forever.

Wrobel, if you're reading this, please compare this ability to sub assault and ask yourself, are you really happy with how this ability performs in PvP? Because sadly I'm not. And while I realize my opinion does not even matter, reading this just made me sad.

SorataArisugawa

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division

the issue with darkdeal is in my opinion that it can work within 15 to 20% of the classes theoretical top performance. However if you approach high end trials darkdeal is an ability that´s not going to see use (correct me if i´m wrong here).

The issue with the ability is:
It´s not a normal gcd ability - it has 1.2s casttime + another 0.2s animation free time for casttime skills
This means it will disrupt your rotation inevitably - lowering dps.
It does return a fair amount of resources - but still not enough compared to say siphoning attacks especially when considering that sorcerers magica drain/s is about 20% higher than nbs for most pve parses i´ve seen for summerset.
Dark deal restores less resources with higher casttime - and due to higher costs would have to be used more often. All of that while sorc dps is lower than NBs to begin with (meaning more darkdeal casts would increase dps disparity further).

Last but not least the resource to darkdeal is stamina which does not come easy for magica chars as mismanagement generally means death - contrary to stamina chars and magica where running oom generally just means that.
Not being able to dodge/ccbreak/block when needed will get you killed which makes using stamina for sustain very undesireable imo.

@Derra

OK, the very fact you have to caveat "correct me if I'm wrong" means you don't know for sure ... which is exactly what Wrobel's perspective was when he asked the question. you and others are being way too harsh.

Dark exchange is a good ability. It is for sustain. It would be irresponsible for a game designer to simply accept your or any other contention that this good ability that so many sorcerers use for PvP is all of sudden not any good for PVE - especially when people have used it to good effect in PvE: I've seen a good parse with Dark Deal sustaing a force pulse rotation after Morrowind nerfs (they drop frags) and dark exchange was one reason, among others, how for years sorcerers were considered easy mode for vet vMA farms was because they could slap this on their overload bar and trivialize sustain in a way a DK or templar could never do. You of all people should be sensitive to the perception that sorcerers are "easy mode" and now you want ZOS to not ask hard questions as to why sorcerers need further buff? That's ass backwards. It sounds like sorcerers don't want to slot Dark Deal rather than doing so would be determinant. The burden should be on sorcerers to prove why this skill we know is good and we know sorcs use in other setting is somehow not viable for this setting. That question Wrobel forwarded has to be asked and answered. It does.

In spite of all that, though our discussion we came to a tentative conclusion that you yourself agree with "it's good in theory, but not practical in that instance for reasons." And now you are disheartened? Why am I even doing this? Is this not precisely what the rep process is for? Should I just go home because the devs ask legitimate hard questions to compel me to explain my rationale beyond "buff please"?

First of all: thanks for all of your time doing this. I really appreciate your hard work!

Second: There is a mismatch in communication or understanding here. The problems are:

ability that so many sorcerers use for PvP is all of sudden not any good for PVE

Why must something a priori be a good thing in PVE because it is good in PVP? That makes no sence at all. The way of a fight is completly different in both cases. That means for this skill:
PVP: Burst-> other people dead->time for dark deal(because now you have time and you DPS doesn't matter anyways);
OR: Burst not enough: run around something, gather resources with dark deal (bad, because you using your already low stamina pool, but it's worth a try)-> try to burst again

PVE: sustain your DPS over a long time(no time for Dark deal, because ~1,4secs without DPS)

ow for years sorcerers were considered easy mode for vet vMA farms was because they could slap this on their overload bar and trivialize sustain in a way a DK or templar could never do

Thats again the different way of sustain. If there are times, when no DPS is needed(free time), dark deal is nice and performs maybe a little bit to well. BUT if you need constant DMG output it is no option. And Derra told you already here why

It´s not a normal gcd ability - it has 1.2s casttime + another 0.2s animation free time for casttime skills
This means it will disrupt your rotation inevitably - lowering dps.
It does return a fair amount of resources - but still not enough compared to say siphoning attacks especially when considering that sorcerers magica drain/s is about 20% higher than nbs for most pve parses i´ve seen for summerset.
Dark deal restores less resources with higher casttime - and due to higher costs would have to be used more often. All of that while sorc dps is lower than NBs to begin with (meaning more darkdeal casts would increase dps disparity further).

Last but not least the resource to darkdeal is stamina which does not come easy for magica chars as mismanagement generally means death - contrary to stamina chars and magica where running oom generally just means that.
Not being able to dodge/ccbreak/block when needed will get you killed which makes using stamina for sustain very undesireable imo.

That's ass backwards. It sounds like sorcerers don't want to slot Dark Deal rather than doing so would be determinant. The burden should be on sorcerers to prove why this skill we know is good and we know sorcs use in other setting is somehow not viable for this setting. That question Wrobel forwarded has to be asked and answered.

That is reeeeeeally hard to read and even consider for a sorc main, because that what Derra wrote and I quoted before is soo obvious for us. I explained it before and I am sorry, but you should be able to distinguish between different encounters, like vMA and the trails and what they expect from player. There may be trails, when you can do nothing as a DD, but in most of them, you need always full DPS. "weaving" dark deal in this surroundings reduces our DPS even more and increases the gap to NBs even further...

Long story short:
fights with free time: dark deal is nice (maybe al little bit to nice)
fights without free time(almost all fights in trails): dark deal is no option, just a DPS loss, and it is obvious why. (getting resources back from overload is no help either...)

Quantum_V

BohnT wrote: »

Who made these Stamdk suggestions?
Like really noxious Breath is utter crap, the skill does crappy damage the dot is laughable, it's completely outclassed by shalks.
Also why is there no mention of a stam spammable that's like the number 1 issue that was mentioned in the DK post

Hey, @BohnT.

We did discuss that. While we did get mixed feedback on a proper stamDK spammable, the fact that stamDKs have to seek so much utility out of their own class to be effective was a point I really tried to develop and build on during the discussion, as this fact got a lot of feedback from the community!

Keep in mind this list only shows the title of the topics discussed, but we talked more in depth on each point.

Own

Heavy armor still seen as more desirable for PvP, especially for stamina builds. The idea of moving the critical hit passive from the Champion tree to the Light and Medium armor skills was floated around

Amazing

Warden utl gain/mending too good

SorataArisugawa

Aedaryl wrote: »

I'm playing pet sorc in PvP (openworld, duels and battleground).

I want to clarify why pets are not used and hated.

First, DON'T buff pets damage, or they will be OP. DON'T make them 1 bar related or they will be OP.

Pets are not used/hated because they are unreliable.

In PvP there is few important rules to follow for being able to 1vX/ smallscale with a sorc.

- Sorc open playstyle is divided into 2 parts :

1) Spreading & Kitting : Sorc will streak away and kite people until they are out of ennemy attack range (kitting with rocks/landscape) or until ennemies are in a reasonable number to kill them.

Problem : When you streak away, pets don't follow => Unreliable
When you kite into rocks/landscape, pets will not follow => Unreliable

2) Fighting : You are in a good position to kill ennemies and actually truely fight.

Problem : You can't take adventage of landscape cuz pet will be stuck and you will need 3s to recast your main damage skill and your main heal. => Unreliable.

---
In group : pets will die to any ennemy siege/destro or to any coordinated AoE ultimate (downbreaker/leap) : When you are the most pressured, your heal is behind a 1.5s cooldown. You can't heal you and when u survive coordinated ultimate, ur often in execute range, meaning you will be reverse slice/fury/jesus beam to dealth without being able to heal you (OR an ally).
---

For battleground :

Each time to need to jump from A (upstair) to B (downstair), pets will be stuck/away : count the number of time you jump in a BG and feel sad about pet sorc life.

You can't kite in battlegroung with pets => Unreliable

As well as you can't follow people kitting when you have pets => unreliable.

---

The 2 sorcs strengh aren't possible to use proprely for pet sorc :

You don't really benefit from range adventage since ur pets need to be close the ennemy, and you will not be able to chase someone or to fight someone taking adventage of landscape because pets will either be stuck or won't follow.

You don't really benefit from streak kitting "hit and go" playstyle cuz pets doesn't follow.

There is one simple and easy (and lazy) solution to all pets problem

When you ask to pets to come back with the command (Y+right click), pets should PORT to you.

It solve all the problems of "pets being stuck" "pets not following" "pets refuse to move" "where are my pets ?".

NB : The command NEED to be added on console, actually pvp pet sorc doesn't exist there because you can't controll the pet at all.

So much this!!!
But I would go further and say: even if you order them right back to you, it wouldn't solve the problem(use of a seperate button, the fact, that you use range DMG and 50% of you pets use close combat remains).
Pets that are always around don't work in this game(you see it at the warden bear as well). You sould make them like the Atro: short around after activation, but getting s*** done. It would solve so much problems...

Gprime31

technohic wrote: »

Gprime31 wrote: »

Time to start window shopping for a new MMO.
Can’t see this ending well

Why so negative? The devs apparently didnt know these pain points and now they do. You can chose to be disappointed in that or you can chose to be happy that they finally do and a dialogue has been started. Im sure we wont ever get exactly what we want and even some things we really don't; but we are in a better spot today than a week ago.

Because zos from day one, just doesnt get the fact that if they do small adjustments ie: 5% or 1-2 sec more cool down they would have far less trouble balancing this game, instead they go to extremes nerf it to the ground or remove it completely only to replace it with another broken or op set/ability.
Instead of major changes 4 times a year why not do small changes weekly? This has been brought up multiple times in eso’s lifetime but they still ignore it.

So get ready for extremes!

Quantum_V

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE''

I believe this is probably said for the utility part of this ability or this is a typo error.(N.Breath provides aoe major fracture, good for providing utility to your stamina buddies, but done better by stamdens, so there is no point) ,and it does really underwhelming damage.

underwhelming to the point that I don't even remember seeing this ability in my recap since forever.

Wrobel, if you're reading this, please compare this ability to sub assault and ask yourself, are you really happy with how this ability performs in PvP? Because sadly I'm not. And while I realize my opinion does not even matter, reading this just made me sad.

Sorry, @Ragnarock41 , its really difficult to develop and accurately transmit what we said through a resume and list. When nox breath was brought up as being good, that was a reference to it’s core idea and concept. Adding an AoE major breach. The skill is underwhelming as a whole, very lackluster and we generally agreed on that and rarely used in PvP due this. Im pretty sure most of us can agree on this.

Hopefully I could clarify somethings.

olsborg

Great, my only wish is for zos to really revamp or change the way defile works atm, its way, way too strong atm and rly needs rebalanced. Its gonna be hard tho, because defile might be the only thing that gets that magplar spamming BoL to die, but then again defile could completely shut down a stamina players healing.

Gprime31

olsborg wrote: »

Great, my only wish is for zos to really revamp or change the way defile works atm, its way, way too strong atm and rly needs rebalanced. Its gonna be hard tho, because defile might be the only thing that gets that magplar spamming BoL to die, but then again defile could completely shut down a stamina players healing.

And magdk their healing is too strong,
They need to balance dmg vs healing then defile won’t be needed

Gprime31

I think you are starting in the wrong place with class adjustments, start with the core: dmg, healing, shields,defile then balance the classes, otherwise it’s a waste of time changing around skills, without fixing the core problems

BohnT

Quantum_V wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Who made these Stamdk suggestions?
Like really noxious Breath is utter crap, the skill does crappy damage the dot is laughable, it's completely outclassed by shalks.
Also why is there no mention of a stam spammable that's like the number 1 issue that was mentioned in the DK post

Hey, @BohnT.

We did discuss that. While we did get mixed feedback on a proper stamDK spammable, the fact that stamDKs have to seek so much utility out of their own class to be effective was a point I really tried to develop and build on during the discussion, as this fact got a lot of feedback from the community!

Keep in mind this list only shows the title of the topics discussed, but we talked more in depth on each point.

I just want to stress how bad stamdk is, any of the stamdk mains i know stopped using the class or just use it for nostalgic reasons.
The answer you get when you ask them what a decent setup for Stamdk is, is: Just play anything else, there is no reason to use stamdk at this point.

The 2 useable stamina based damage skills are outclassed by other things.
Venemous claws damage is only half of what 2h bleeds or DW bleed does.
Noxious Breath deals almost no damage, the dot is weak and shalks provide major fracture on a much bigger area with much better damage

Take flight is plagued by bugs which is the reason why it is been replaced by Dawnbreaker if people want a reliable ultimate

Corrosive Armor damage mitigation has been bugged for over 2 years now while being stuck with too high cost and a long duration which doesn't help. Reducing both duration and cost by 50% would increase it's viability a lot. Shield ultimate is just much better for almost any situation.

And just a reminder for the devs: The psijic skill line has to be bought no class should require you to invest real money to be viable.

I want a reason to play stamdk again and not feel weak in every single encounter.
For survivability any other class works better because stamdk while being called the tank class can be forced to die with things like bleeds, defiles etc.
Other classes have much better survivability while offering so much more damage and utility that it's just frustrating to even think about it.


I know that there are strong builds out there but they aren't strong due to what stamdk brings to the table rather then the used mechanics being overperfoming like bleed+skoria+poisons+sloads and duroks in bgs.
Nothing reflects stamdks identity which is currently non existant as you already mentioned.
If you want to use a build that isn't focused around overperfoming non class mechanics then stamdk simply doesn't offer anything at all.

Ragnarock41

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE''

I believe this is probably said for the utility part of this ability or this is a typo error.(N.Breath provides aoe major fracture, good for providing utility to your stamina buddies, but done better by stamdens, so there is no point) ,and it does really underwhelming damage.

underwhelming to the point that I don't even remember seeing this ability in my recap since forever.

Wrobel, if you're reading this, please compare this ability to sub assault and ask yourself, are you really happy with how this ability performs in PvP? Because sadly I'm not. And while I realize my opinion does not even matter, reading this just made me sad.

Sorry, @Ragnarock41 , its really difficult to develop and accurately transmit what we said through a resume and list. When nox breath was brought up a being gold, that was a reference to it’s core idea. Adding an AoE major breach. The skill is underwhelming as a whole, very lackluster and we generally agreed on that and rarely used in PvP due this. Im pretty sure most of us can agree on this.

Hopefully I could clarify somethings.

Thanks for clarifying. It still does not change how sad this whole thing is though. Its so sad that I can't even get angry and be that salty QQ'er anymore.

Quantum_V

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE''

I believe this is probably said for the utility part of this ability or this is a typo error.(N.Breath provides aoe major fracture, good for providing utility to your stamina buddies, but done better by stamdens, so there is no point) ,and it does really underwhelming damage.

underwhelming to the point that I don't even remember seeing this ability in my recap since forever.

Wrobel, if you're reading this, please compare this ability to sub assault and ask yourself, are you really happy with how this ability performs in PvP? Because sadly I'm not. And while I realize my opinion does not even matter, reading this just made me sad.

Sorry, @Ragnarock41 , its really difficult to develop and accurately transmit what we said through a resume and list. When nox breath was brought up a being gold, that was a reference to it’s core idea. Adding an AoE major breach. The skill is underwhelming as a whole, very lackluster and we generally agreed on that and rarely used in PvP due this. Im pretty sure most of us can agree on this.

Hopefully I could clarify somethings.

Thanks for clarifying. It still does not change how sad this whole thing is though.

After the meeting, I have an overall positive feeling about the future of stamdk. Its just really difiicult to convey the whole meeting in a couple of paragraphs.

Marto

The question Wroebel made about bar space being insufficient actually brings to mind a rather important point.

There's too many skills in ESO whose value comes from being slotted, thanks to the large ammount of "When you have X ability slotted" passives so many classes have. Specially Sorcerers and Templars.

I recently started to play Magicka DD Templar after years playing healer, and the Ancient Knowledge Passive summed to the Piercing Spear, Spear Wall, and Burning Light passives makes my bar setup incredibly restricted. I rarely actually use more than two skills in my bar. I rarely even use the ultimate in my main bar since it's often just there to activate passive boosts.

Giving Templars and Sorcerers more passives that are active at all times could really help.

NyassaV

BohnT wrote: »

Also why is there no mention of a stam spammable that's like the number 1 issue that was mentioned in the DK post

It's not going to happen, they even made a joke about it during the meeting.

ArvenAldmeri

From point of view of someone playing sorc for 4 years trying to compete with magblade dps in trials (vet, 40k+ dps groups). Dark deal is a no go. The cast time is too long and there is no space on top of it without losing dps. Even heavy attack makes my dps drop by 2k which is the worst because I have to do damage all the time if I want to get even close to what magblades do. While a magblade is gonna go and self sustain 6 mil dummy with 45k dps I am happy to sustain 3 mil dummy with 40kish having to still use heavy attacks which now really are weak after the nerf and its obvious dps loss.

Seing Wrobel comments make me scared for sorcs future. And the fact no mention about execute also. Its just so weak compared to any other execute in the game. Sorc recap hardest hitting skill: 30 crystal frag and maybe 28k execute. Magblade recap hardest hitting skill: spectral bow and execute both at around 50-60k. Yeah, totally balanced.*irony*

Quantum_V

NyassaV wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Also why is there no mention of a stam spammable that's like the number 1 issue that was mentioned in the DK post

It's not going to happen, they even made a joke about it during the meeting.

Um... we didn’t?

Ragnarock41

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

''Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE''

I believe this is probably said for the utility part of this ability or this is a typo error.(N.Breath provides aoe major fracture, good for providing utility to your stamina buddies, but done better by stamdens, so there is no point) ,and it does really underwhelming damage.

underwhelming to the point that I don't even remember seeing this ability in my recap since forever.

Wrobel, if you're reading this, please compare this ability to sub assault and ask yourself, are you really happy with how this ability performs in PvP? Because sadly I'm not. And while I realize my opinion does not even matter, reading this just made me sad.

Sorry, @Ragnarock41 , its really difficult to develop and accurately transmit what we said through a resume and list. When nox breath was brought up a being gold, that was a reference to it’s core idea. Adding an AoE major breach. The skill is underwhelming as a whole, very lackluster and we generally agreed on that and rarely used in PvP due this. Im pretty sure most of us can agree on this.

Hopefully I could clarify somethings.

Thanks for clarifying. It still does not change how sad this whole thing is though.

After the meeting, I have an overall positive feeling about the future of stamdk. Its just really difiicult to convey the whole meeting in a couple of paragraphs.

I really wonder what the future will bring for sure. Can't share your optimism though, as I was dumb enough to trust zenimax with morrowind, telling myself they would not go that cheap, but they did go that cheap in the end.. So yeah. If you make a positive difference, more power to you man. And if otherwise, its not your fault to begin with.

Tasear

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

It was mentioned during the meeting.

first_kodiak

As a non-pet, mostly pve magsorc I want to chime in on a few things.

The bar space problem has little to do with too many good abilities. It has to do with the fact that bound aegis and inner light have to be on both bars to keep the buffs. Not having them is too big of a dps loss, reducing available skill slots to 3 on each bar.

I very much agree with @SorataArisugawa on his comments about dark deal/conversion. In PvE content, with the exception of something like vMA, consistent dps is what matters most. Dark conversion restores magicka but doesn't restore enough for how long the cast time is. It doesn't even provide enough magicka for both liquid lightning and elemental blockade and I would have to give up something else to fit it. I can't see how to mix it in to a rotation and not have a pure loss of dps. It can trigger passives, but so does crystal frags. I could probably cover the sustain with an infused potion cooldown or magicka regen ring if I really needed it. It may work great in burst environments like pvp and vma, but it does not give much benefit in pve.

Concerning @Joy_Division's argument about dark deal, you sound incredibly hostile to people who don't want to use dark deal. I don't mind being corrected if I am wrong and you can show me how, but your open hostility is not helpful. You say that "The burden should be on sorcerers to prove why this skill ... is somehow not viable for this setting." @Derra did exactly that and you seem to have either ignored him or missed the point. SorataArisugawa explained it again. It may be a good skill in PvP. It is not a good skill for active sustain in PvE.

Attacking Derra for using the phrase "correct me if I'm wrong" is simply toxic. The phrase is sometimes used condescendingly, as you accuse, but is often also used as a cover statement indicating that the speaker knows they may be wrong and is open to correction if that is the case.

Ankaridan

Minno wrote: »

It's been a long time since we had a thread like this with consistent and value points.

Good work and first edition of the rep program!!

Regardless of the actual points themselves, I want to echo this.

Seeing these notes and the discussions/conversations centered around them is a huge positive for communication between players and devs. I hope this trend continues to develop because having the opportunity to see this upfront is uplifting.

Even if the changes don't happen, the player base can see that thought and discussions were behind the decision, as opposed to a void of silence where we are left speculating.

This level of communication is a very good thing.

Faulgor

Erm, @ZOS_GinaBruno?
You summarize the issues brought up with tanks and healers, but there was also a thread about DPS from the class reps.
Was this role not discussed during the meeting, or did it just slip through the cracks somehow?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I feel the repentance issue for Templars ought to be more fleshed out but at least it is there. Thank you to the class representatives for being unpaid interns in this project.

Voxicity

Masel92 wrote: »

Voxicity wrote: »

LOL sorc isn't mobile?

Must be playing a different game

Sorc is less mobile due to the prevalence of snares, roots and ccs in pvp and they have to use expensive purge to remove them. Streak often feels less useful than not using it.

This is not my opinion, this is what players told us. People need to learn that this list is a summary of the feedback we received, not our own personal opinion.

Where in my comment did I imply that it was the opinion of class reps? Don't flatter yourself mate

Anyway that's why the system is broken. It's literally just FOTM players trying to defend their beloved class

Most of the feedback seems great and legit concerns about the classes but this point is just ridiculous

Sorc. Bad mobility. I've never seen such bs in my life

_Ahala_

Agree with literally everything concerning warden. Great job! I feel very well represented and am confident that the future of Magden is in good hands

Voxicity

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

From point of view of someone playing sorc for 4 years trying to compete with magblade dps in trials (vet, 40k+ dps groups). Dark deal is a no go. The cast time is too long and there is no space on top of it without losing dps. Even heavy attack makes my dps drop by 2k which is the worst because I have to do damage all the time if I want to get even close to what magblades do. While a magblade is gonna go and self sustain 6 mil dummy with 45k dps I am happy to sustain 3 mil dummy with 40kish having to still use heavy attacks which now really are weak after the nerf and its obvious dps loss.

Seing Wrobel comments make me scared for sorcs future. And the fact no mention about execute also. Its just so weak compared to any other execute in the game. Sorc recap hardest hitting skill: 30 crystal frag and maybe 28k execute. Magblade recap hardest hitting skill: spectral bow and execute both at around 50-60k. Yeah, totally balanced.*irony*

4 years?

Magblade was at the bottom of the barrel in terms of pve dps only like 2 years ago

Why must people lie all the time. I don't get it...

Jeremiah87

Super happy to have such an elaborate effort for class balance laid out for us. This is very informative. Highly appreciated.

Joy_Division

See below

Masel

Marto wrote: »

The question Wroebel made about bar space being insufficient actually brings to mind a rather important point.

There's too many skills in ESO whose value comes from being slotted, thanks to the large ammount of "When you have X ability slotted" passives so many classes have. Specially Sorcerers and Templars.

I recently started to play Magicka DD Templar after years playing healer, and the Ancient Knowledge Passive summed to the Piercing Spear, Spear Wall, and Burning Light passives makes my bar setup incredibly restricted. I rarely actually use more than two skills in my bar. I rarely even use the ultimate in my main bar since it's often just there to activate passive boosts.

Giving Templars and Sorcerers more passives that are active at all times could really help.

This was basically the conclusion... You have to slot too many things on too little bar space.

Joy_Division

@first_kodiak @Derra @SorataArisugawa

OK there is a serious miscommunication here and I can see how that my explanation is the cause of it.

Main point: Sorcerer sustain is a Pain point in PvE is on the list It's there. It's there because we class reps agree Dark Conversion is not a satisfactory solution to this pain point. If I felt otherwise, it wouldn't be on the list.

What I was trying to convey was that I think it was a legitimate question by the devs to challenge us why the sorcerers skill devoted for the sustain wouldn't work. I don't think the devs should just roll over and accept everything the players or we throw at them. They should ask hard questions. They should challenge us. Just because I understand where the devs are coming from does not mean I agree with their assessment or disagree with the very pain point that is on the list. It means I am OK in a discussion where people want to know more or why a readily available alternative is not good enough. In fact, I respect that. I'd be worried if we didn't get push back because that would suggest to me the other side doesn't have an intellectual spine.

That's all I was trying to say. I DONT think Dark Conversion is a end-game competitive means for PvE sustain. I DO think people can make it work to have good (albeit not BiS or great) parse (indeed as I said I've seen them) so I do understand why the devs would challenge us here. So I'm totally fine with them doing that. I can see how in my attempt to say I'm fine with them challenging us, I gave the wrong impression and not addressed your concerns.

So, to sum up:

1. I and the other reps do think PvE sorcerer sustain is a pain point
2. This was commuciated to the devs
3. When the devs challenged us, we stuck to our guns and said yes Dark Conversion is a good ability, however slotting it is going to create other issues and not solve the problem
4. Apologize for the confusion