[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

Nolic1

I wish I could say something here but it will only fall on def ears. I really wish I could say you all were here for the rest of us but I will give this till the next discussion is in and see what was discussed but still feel this program is going to fail cause it only reaches those connected to the youtube/streames whom have already shown there bias of the rest of the community cause most of them focus on meta play and to those on the forums if you really want to be there for the rest of us your really going to have to prove it by focusing on the real matters and not just those the reflect the end game meta.


So congrats on getting the first discussion done and for being chosen now its time to prove to the rest of us your really here for the community at large.

Anti_Virus

Was there any mention of improving ranged based stamina builds, like making Bow/Bow more viable in trials? Or will that be ignored again?

Tasear

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Was there any mention of improving ranged based stamina builds, like making Bow/Bow more viable in trials? Or will that be ignored again?

We have a lot of options for submitting feedback. Have you tried Google forum?

https://goo.gl/forms/gGFVynPcDcZn5yiH2

Also have you looked at this guide?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve#latest

Lastest don't forget to tell people about the program. The more people who know then the more voices and concerns can be heard.

Strider__Roshin

Nothing on shield stacking? This really needs to be addressed.

Tasear

Daus wrote: »

Nothing on shield stacking? This really needs to be addressed.

To help us hear your voice and others. Join us to talk it more in various forms of feedback. Also don't forget to invite your friends too.

Weps

Masel92 wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Will the discussion about pain points also be done with weapon / guild skill lines?

There are several frustrating passives, skills and overall balance which should be touched.

This is something that could spark an interesting conversation but I think the Class Reps are tied to make class-based suggestions.

Can you Reps also suggest to implement things related to other skills lines ( like Trapping Webs instead as a Caltrops alternative and maybe an Undaunted Ultimate that could be a viable alternative to Aggressive Horn for those who don't want to go in Cyrodil - which are, sadly, quite a few )?

We spoke to them about synergies and trapping webs, and we also mentioned an undaunted ultimate, actually! Not directly in the same sense as you did here, but we mentioned it.

I have absolute faith in this group of class reps.
You and Gilliam taking the job are the most positive news I heard about this game in like 2 years

DoonerSeraph

Leaving here my opinion of why Defile is so overloaded and strong:

• We have 3 CP healing stars, Blessed (+15% healing done), Elfborn (+25% healing done on crit, was that nerfed on healing? Sorry I'm not on game RN), and Quick Recovery (+15% Healing taken)
• We have races that excel at healing done and taken (Argonian is an obvious example)
• We have 2 buffs that increase healing, Mending (done) and Vitality (taken)
• We have classes that excel at healing done (Templars and Wardens) and healing taken (DK)
• But we only have 1 debuff to healing taken (Defile, be it from skills or from status effects), and 1 CP star to increase it (Befoul)

IMO Befoul and defiles HAS to be overloaded at that point because its countering massive boni to selfheals. It would just be frustrating to fight someone who can self heal him/hersefl to full. Nerfing Defile now would probably prolong fights and favor too much hated builds like "healbots".

Since Befoul scale so high to counter self-healing builds, it takes very little effort to almost completely shut down builds who don't focus on self healing, but have them as a complementary defense.

My suggestion here would be to create a new debuff that decreases healing DONE, and split Defile's power (power meaning what CP stars affect it, by how much, and how accessible it is) into it.

So that way you can balance in PVP against healers, people who uses self healing as a complementary defense, and full stacking self healers.

bardx86

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division already said it - i think it was a problem of understanding for me personally.

The way you put the dark conversion issue leaves me with nothing to really complain about.

The funny thing is from a PVP perspective we wouldn't even be talking about dark deal if steak was never nerfed. We are talking about a symptom of a solution to fix a root problem ZOS created with streak. Just un-nerf dam streak and PVP sustain is at least headed in the right direction. It would also help to fix the Sorcs mobility problems a bit as well. Stop over thinking this Worble.

bardx86

Daus wrote: »

Nothing on shield stacking? This really needs to be addressed.

Agreed, having to cast 3 shield just to compete is to much. Having to wait for 6 sec for a heal is to long. Please buff Sorcs defensive abilities.

Gprime31

So when do these “changes” go in to action?

Checkmath

changes (if any :P) will be implemented in the next bigger update, so basically with update 19 around august with the werewolfes dungeons if i am not mistaken.

JobooAGS

Tasear wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Was there any mention of improving ranged based stamina builds, like making Bow/Bow more viable in trials? Or will that be ignored again?

We have a lot of options for submitting feedback. Have you tried Google forum?

https://goo.gl/forms/gGFVynPcDcZn5yiH2

Also have you looked at this guide?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/381498/everything-needed-to-know-about-bow-bow-in-pve#latest

Lastest don't forget to tell people about the program. The more people who know then the more voices and concerns can be heard.

If you read the disclaimer, it says that bow/bow builds are not optimized for trials, though you can complete with them. I think what OP means is "competitive"

venomsky

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Also as posted from the notes:

"If you are a “stamina” player, there is little distinction between the classes as weapon abilities are predominate. Only the Nightblade feels like a fluid from a stamina perspective. We mused about how some lesser used abilities like the DK Obsidian Shard could be used to help create more of a unique stamina class identity."

I like that idea for DKs. It could offer up a stamina option and somewhat of a stamina heal for StamDKs. (and it's still a decent ranged CC)

Conversely, I'd like to see the magicka-based version, Stone Giant, become flame damage and act as a semi-execute for mDKs.

(Or vice-versa for both morphs)

That is a terrible suggestion , does not solve any of the problems stamina DK has(absolute lack of any kill potential), and only makes magicka Dk even more ridicilous.(execute on an already deadly class).

Stonefist is an ability that is useless for both stam and magicka Dk. There is no reason to use it. a heal every 7 seconds does not beat the defile I get from reverb bash, or the reliability of petrify.

lol exactly magdk got way too many healing skills, and even dots do more dmg than stam dots.
And i think zos should change GB to stamina cost skill and give minor endurance not major.

OutLaw_Nynx

I’d like to see werewolves get our stam recovery back. I liked playing as a werewolf in beast form; stam recovery in human form was a bonus.

OutLaw_Nynx

(Double post)

BaylorCorvette

One of the class representatives mentioned a discord for further discussion. Is this open to anyone, or just class representatives. If anyone, what's the discord?

Liofa

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

One of the class representatives mentioned a discord for further discussion. Is this open to anyone, or just class representatives. If anyone, what's the discord?

There is a sticky thread in Combat and Character Mechanics forum by Masel92. You'll find invite links there.

President_PUG

All I know is you fix one thing you break 5 others.

BohnT

Is there a date for the next meeting planned already?

Is there any chance that things like procs and counterplay will be touched?

Sets that provide more damage than main spammable abilities or even ultimates should have counterplay that is so easy and cheap!! that any player that isn't totally detached from the gameplay (read afk, just started playing) shouldn't have to eat them or invest heavy amounts of resources to survive.

Sets like skoria, Zaan, Caluurion’s, sloads, poisonous serpent (heavily op but not used) and Earthgore defensive wise etc. deal massive amounts of damage (heal for a lot) while requiring the enemy to use massive amounts of resources to survive/ not being affected by the free damage. The user doesn't use any resources to proc these sets (no skoria isn't hard to proc every build that uses skoria uses enough dots already and purge is only accessible to one very small portion of the playerbase, also it just doesn't work to purge each and all dots all the time).
Opportunity cost isn't touched here, it exists but in many cases it's much better to run the procs as they offer much more damage or much more healing than any stat based set that this game has to offer.

example:
Skoria often supplements for 40% of my non ultimate burst combo on my magdk, more in non cp. If we reduce the damage calculation to a spell / weapon damage only and ignore all other things (buffs, cp, max stat, penetration etc.) then a set like clever alchemist would have to add 40% of my spelldamage in order to compete with Skoria in terms of added burst damage.
The problem is this just doesn't add up even with this very granting formula for CA my spelldamage before the buff has to be ~1700 in order for CA to be the better choice for max burst.
Some problems here:
With 1.7k spelldamage skoria would add more than 40% of my burst damage ----> CA is worse
In the real world more things count into damage dealt meaning a change to spelldamage alone won't change as much as it does in my example

---

> CA is worse

I used CA for this because it adds the most spelldamage in the game of any stat granting set

Selene, Tremorscale, widowmaker are good examples how procs counterplay should be handled, the user gets free damage but the prey can avoid this free damage without having to invest resources to avoid them. This may vary from time to time and differ from encounter to encounter but in general it's nicely balanced with risk and reward for both the user and the enemy

I think we should have strong sets, things like Bloodspawn are really strong but they are only as strong as the player using it, to gain the full advantage of BS the player has to has a good insight on the game, situational awareness, player skill etc.
Sets like sloads, skoria, Zaan don't require this they can be used effectively even by players with a lack of player skill, situational awareness because they grant set amounts of burst damage or sustained pressure that simply is too much for this games balance.

TheGr8David

While I don't necessarily agree with everything on this list, it's heartening to see that most of our concerns regarding balancing are being addressed and that we're being included in the process. This open forum style of feedback and balance implementation is much appreciated!

CavalryPK

Magblade mobility is not an issue ? Did they miss it ? Did I miss it ?

Strider__Roshin

BohnT wrote: »

Is there a date for the next meeting planned already?

Is there any chance that things like procs and counterplay will be touched?

Sets that provide more damage than main spammable abilities or even ultimates should have counterplay that is so easy and cheap!! that any player that isn't totally detached from the gameplay (read afk, just started playing) shouldn't have to eat them or invest heavy amounts of resources to survive.

Sets like skoria, Zaan, Caluurion’s, sloads, poisonous serpent (heavily op but not used) and Earthgore defensive wise etc. deal massive amounts of damage (heal for a lot) while requiring the enemy to use massive amounts of resources to survive/ not being affected by the free damage. The user doesn't use any resources to proc these sets (no skoria isn't hard to proc every build that uses skoria uses enough dots already and purge is only accessible to one very small portion of the playerbase, also it just doesn't work to purge each and all dots all the time).
Opportunity cost isn't touched here, it exists but in many cases it's much better to run the procs as they offer much more damage or much more healing than any stat based set that this game has to offer.

example:
Skoria often supplements for 40% of my non ultimate burst combo on my magdk, more in non cp. If we reduce the damage calculation to a spell / weapon damage only and ignore all other things (buffs, cp, max stat, penetration etc.) then a set like clever alchemist would have to add 40% of my spelldamage in order to compete with Skoria in terms of added burst damage.
The problem is this just doesn't add up even with this very granting formula for CA my spelldamage before the buff has to be ~1700 in order for CA to be the better choice for max burst.
Some problems here:
With 1.7k spelldamage skoria would add more than 40% of my burst damage ----> CA is worse
In the real world more things count into damage dealt meaning a change to spelldamage alone won't change as much as it does in my example

---

> CA is worse

I used CA for this because it adds the most spelldamage in the game of any stat granting set

Selene, Tremorscale, widowmaker are good examples how procs counterplay should be handled, the user gets free damage but the prey can avoid this free damage without having to invest resources to avoid them. This may vary from time to time and differ from encounter to encounter but in general it's nicely balanced with risk and reward for both the user and the enemy

I think we should have strong sets, things like Bloodspawn are really strong but they are only as strong as the player using it, to gain the full advantage of BS the player has to has a good insight on the game, situational awareness, player skill etc.
Sets like sloads, skoria, Zaan don't require this they can be used effectively even by players with a lack of player skill, situational awareness because they grant set amounts of burst damage or sustained pressure that simply is too much for this games balance.

QFT

Yzalirk

I am feeling very hopeful with these points brought up. I definitely want to see the Warden’s ice abilities dish out more damage for sure. The heavy armor suggestions for PvE were also great.

lucky_Sage

I main a magdk but ever since ive bought the game I wanted to play a ice mage I love playing classes that have control doesn't win with burst but wins by keeping control over the enemy. but when warden was released I tried it was the class just felt like a cheap knock of sorc. im happy to see it had a good percent of concern.

LonePirate

BohnT wrote: »

there are so many ways to proc it on cooldown roots, cc, shock Damage, duoing with a medium armor build that uses 120 atro cps.

Do you even play a DK in Cyrodiil? Or if you do, do you ever fight actual players instead of just guards or the PVE mobs? Kind of sounds like you don't because the skill doesn't proc nearly as much as you think it does due to pots, armor skills, roll dodging and all of the counters out there. Not only that but if you're relying on other players to create the conditions that proc the skill, then the skill itself is flawed.

It's as if the DKs in this thread and the ones serving as class reps either know very little about the ills faced by Mag DKs in Cyrodiil or they want everyone to switch to Stam. Maybe it's both.

f047ys3v3n

A lot of this feedback looks very good to me.

Hopefully next meeting you can address how every attack between .23 seconds and 2.2 seconds is a medium attack, worthless with low damage and no resource return, and how a slight bit of lag can easily throw half of you lights into this range of suck, totally killing dps.

Hopefully, as I am now rolling sorc, my pet will stop dying to mechanics like world shaper or, better yet, become a cast rather than persistent thing like most of the warden pets are. The easiest fix might simply be to make pets take only damage from players and be immune to all npc and environmental damage. They would then always be at max health in PVE as well and probably quit stealing heals.

My current issues with sorc can really be totally boiled down to pets in PVE (death to mechanics, attacking wrong thing at times, and stealing buffs) and snares in PVP (just add snare drop and 1.5 sec immunity to boundless on that one).

All in all good looking feedback.

Kronuxx

Who on earth stated that Noxious Breath as a point in the class rep discussion that it is good in PvP, but bad in PvE? A moron and an idiot? It's much easier to land Noxious Breath as an AOE on more than one target in PvE because THEY STAND STILL. Noxious breath is garbage in PvP. Why? First and foremost because people move! Second, it is difficult to land because of the horrible hit box mechanics. People do not stand still like NPC's. That's not addressing the other faults Noxious has, or even Stam DK in general, but I don't waste any more of my breath.

Anyway, I think the rest of the pain points for Stam DK are decent, I guess. I'm definitely not holding my breath though, that's for sure.

Liofa

Kronuxx wrote: »

Who on earth stated that Noxious Breath as a point in the class rep discussion that it is good in PvP, but bad in PvE? A moron and an idiot? It's much easier to land Noxious Breath as an AOE on more than one target in PvE because THEY STAND STILL. Noxious breath is garbage in PvP. Why? First and foremost because people move! Second, it is difficult to land because of the horrible hit box mechanics. People do not stand still like NPC's. That's not addressing the other faults Noxious has, or even Stam DK in general, but I don't waste any more of my breath.

Anyway, I think the rest of the pain points for Stam DK are decent, I guess. I'm definitely not holding my breath though, that's for sure.

Read this.

Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.

Noxious Breath is good for its Major Fracture debuff. What you say is still there. It does miss the target. Burning Breath is NOT Engulfing Flames. It means both morphs. Magicka and Stamina morphs. Both. Not one. Both.

Is it clear now or do you need more info about the difference between Burning Breath and Noxious Breath?

Mureel

IMHO, not enough focus yet on keeping healers relevant in PVE.

It tilts me how much content I've helped people achieve on my healer, only to hear always '3 dps for HM.' Yeah well fine then. You're welcome for the clear, no deaths (so many attempts because people don't think) & speed.

I'll just chill here with my dlc dungeons achs . 3/4 done and look at your pretty skins.

Thanks for that.

Thankfully, I have friends who will go with me even so because I'm actually a good healer who does my other jobs xD

But still- it stinks that it is more and more like this.

I think that either PVE players' damage needs a nerf across the board, or self heals/shields in PVE need a nerf, or dungeon mechanics need to be buffed/balanced between almost no real damage and one shot mechanics.

Self heals and shields mitigate the low damage as it is now and no one can heal through someone making a mistake and being one shot.

Furthermore - this means over time less healers playing because we only get places in raids and THAT is only 1-2 out of 12, so why even play a healer if that's it?

I don't want to do basically nothing on my healer but a few trials a week and writs. I'm actually lucky in that I get to run trials and get a spot. Not just being a placeholder for someone not showing up, but a LOT and I mean most of healers, don't even get to play unless they queue pledges or are playing always easier content.

There has to be some kind of change or what is even the point?

Mureel

I thought the rest of the points were very good and well laid out except I don't know at all regarding Stam PVE/PVP because I really don't know much about that at all, never having played stam dps.

All in all nicely done, but slightly more focus on PVE would be nice.

Also, put Templar shards back to some kind of strength. They're weak and nearly pointless other than buffs for others now.