[Class Reps] Meeting Notes - June 7

BohnT · June 2018

Were there any mentions about the unbalanced mechanics in the game that hurt people more for being outnumbered like:

Poisons (you can only apply one but multiple can be applied to you)
PotL using all incoming damage rather than a higher percentage from the user
Curse stacking
Siphoner CP
Defiles (were mentioned)
Zaan (deletes one single player every 18 seconds if used right)
Sloads (same as poisons)
Non stat scaling procs (deal enough damage to kill players even when used on tank builds)

I know that there is always a disadvantage for being outnumbered but being punished even more by one ability because you are outnumbered is just frustrating.

Zagnut123Zagnut123 · June 2018

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

@Joy_Division

the issue with darkdeal is in my opinion that it can work within 15 to 20% of the classes theoretical top performance. However if you approach high end trials darkdeal is an ability that´s not going to see use (correct me if i´m wrong here).

The issue with the ability is:
It´s not a normal gcd ability - it has 1.2s casttime + another 0.2s animation free time for casttime skills
This means it will disrupt your rotation inevitably - lowering dps.
It does return a fair amount of resources - but still not enough compared to say siphoning attacks especially when considering that sorcerers magica drain/s is about 20% higher than nbs for most pve parses i´ve seen for summerset.
Dark deal restores less resources with higher casttime - and due to higher costs would have to be used more often. All of that while sorc dps is lower than NBs to begin with (meaning more darkdeal casts would increase dps disparity further).

Last but not least the resource to darkdeal is stamina which does not come easy for magica chars as mismanagement generally means death - contrary to stamina chars and magica where running oom generally just means that.
Not being able to dodge/ccbreak/block when needed will get you killed which makes using stamina for sustain very undesireable imo.

@Derra

OK, the very fact you have to caveat "correct me if I'm wrong" means you don't know for sure ... which is exactly what Wrobel's perspective was when he asked the question. you and others are being way too harsh.

Dark exchange is a good ability. It is for sustain. It would be irresponsible for a game designer to simply accept your or any other contention that this good ability that so many sorcerers use for PvP is all of sudden not any good for PVE - especially when people have used it to good effect in PvE: I've seen a good parse with Dark Deal sustaing a force pulse rotation after Morrowind nerfs (they drop frags) and dark exchange was one reason, among others, how for years sorcerers were considered easy mode for vet vMA farms was because they could slap this on their overload bar and trivialize sustain in a way a DK or templar could never do. You of all people should be sensitive to the perception that sorcerers are "easy mode" and now you want ZOS to not ask hard questions as to why sorcerers need further buff? That's ass backwards. It sounds like sorcerers don't want to slot Dark Deal rather than doing so would be determinant. The burden should be on sorcerers to prove why this skill we know is good and we know sorcs use in other setting is somehow not viable for this setting. That question Wrobel forwarded has to be asked and answered. It does.

In spite of all that, though our discussion we came to a tentative conclusion that you yourself agree with "it's good in theory, but not practical in that instance for reasons." And now you are disheartened? Why am I even doing this? Is this not precisely what the rep process is for? Should I just go home because the devs ask legitimate hard questions to compel me to explain my rationale beyond "buff please"?

Correct me if i´m wrong here is purely for the fact that i can´t know everything. I don´t know of anyone who utilized it and haven´t managed to do it myself for high end raiding.

Good isn´t good enough in this case. It needs to be top tier competetive - which is exactly the issue with it imo.

The conclusion didn´t come across for me the way you word it now - so maybe i misunderstood that from the initial post. If that´s what was the essence i´m not disheartened anymore because then i agree : P

I've never seen a competent raider use dark deal in a trial I guess ppl might use it but it would be wise to not have a 1.2 second cast time ability in your rotation when you could just use balance (if you mag) instantly.

Thogard · June 2018

Did wrobel actually suggest we try to counter the befoul-stacked defile with the healing champ passives? are you kidding me?

I can't wait for him to stop playing his stamblade.

BohnT · June 2018

On the topic of defiles and healing i made a post some time ago i will just post it here again.
Some math with Defiles/ healing CP and buffs

"This doesn't show the problems with defiles in general however.
Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs"

Opportunity costs for Defiles in detail:

What makes this even more absurd is how little opportunity cost you have for increasing the effectiveness of defiles via cp.
Both healing done and taken are in the offensive or defensive cp trees located, meaning if you want to boost your healing you are losing either lots of damage or damage mitigation which makes the effectiveness of the investment rather low as you increase your healing yes but you also eat more damage.

Befoul however is located in the green cp that has little effect on your build past ~150 points spend as you already have all the cps you need for your build. Now you still have access to 100 cp and you can use them on befoul without losing damage or survivability. Further investment in the other cps only give you diminishing returns so it's much more useful to just put everything into befoul.

What makes defiles even stronger is the ease of applying them in contrast to getting the heal buffs.
Only one class has access to both major and minor vitality and major mending and only with a rest staff equipped (nightblade) and in order to get those buffs together for 3 seconds you have to do a fully charged resto + using an ultimate that costs 150 ult (soul siphon)

While every class has easy access to major defile at 100% uptime via: duroks bane, Cyrodiils crest, reverb bash, lethal arrow, diseases damage enchant and that's only the non class skills.
Minor defile can be applied via poisons or fassalas guile.

TL:DR:
Defiles are too easy to get, too strong, don't have high opportunity cost and punish specs which aren't specced into healing even more than full healing specs

James-Wayne · June 2018

For a Templar especially Magplar mobility is higher pain point then sustain.

Fecius · June 2018

Would love to know those ppl. Disagree with most of them, i guess. But it's just my opinion, so who cares.

P.S.: LOLed while reading about beloved sorcs.

Thogard · June 2018

BohnT wrote: »

On the topic of defiles and healing i made a post some time ago i will just post it here again.
Some math with Defiles/ healing CP and buffs
"This doesn't show the problems with defiles in general however.
Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs"

Opportunity costs for Defiles in detail:
What makes this even more absurd is how little opportunity cost you have for increasing the effectiveness of defiles via cp.
Both healing done and taken are in the offensive or defensive cp trees located, meaning if you want to boost your healing you are losing either lots of damage or damage mitigation which makes the effectiveness of the investment rather low as you increase your healing yes but you also eat more damage.

Befoul however is located in the green cp that has little effect on your build past ~150 points spend as you already have all the cps you need for your build. Now you still have access to 100 cp and you can use them on befoul without losing damage or survivability. Further investment in the other cps only give you diminishing returns so it's much more useful to just put everything into befoul.

What makes defiles even stronger is the ease of applying them in contrast to getting the heal buffs.
Only one class has access to both major and minor vitality and major mending and only with a rest staff equipped (nightblade) and in order to get those buffs together for 3 seconds you have to do a fully charged resto + using an ultimate that costs 150 ult (soul siphon)

While every class has easy access to major defile at 100% uptime via: duroks bane, Cyrodiils crest, reverb bash, lethal arrow, diseases damage enchant and that's only the non class skills.
Minor defile can be applied via poisons or fassalas guile.

TL:DR:
Defiles are too easy to get, too strong, don't have high opportunity cost and punish specs which aren't specced into healing even more than full healing specs

It is apparent to me that you never actually tested out any of those numbers or how the different passives/debuffs interact with each other. Like... not even a little bit. You didnt' even get the most basic part of the formula right.

This kind of post doesn't help and it's a large reason as to why wrobel and the balance team let these issues go on... they have no way of knowing whether the feedback is based off of empiracal evidence or just some guesses.

BohnT · June 2018

Thogard wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

On the topic of defiles and healing i made a post some time ago i will just post it here again.
Some math with Defiles/ healing CP and buffs
"This doesn't show the problems with defiles in general however.
Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs"

Opportunity costs for Defiles in detail:
What makes this even more absurd is how little opportunity cost you have for increasing the effectiveness of defiles via cp.
Both healing done and taken are in the offensive or defensive cp trees located, meaning if you want to boost your healing you are losing either lots of damage or damage mitigation which makes the effectiveness of the investment rather low as you increase your healing yes but you also eat more damage.

Befoul however is located in the green cp that has little effect on your build past ~150 points spend as you already have all the cps you need for your build. Now you still have access to 100 cp and you can use them on befoul without losing damage or survivability. Further investment in the other cps only give you diminishing returns so it's much more useful to just put everything into befoul.

What makes defiles even stronger is the ease of applying them in contrast to getting the heal buffs.
Only one class has access to both major and minor vitality and major mending and only with a rest staff equipped (nightblade) and in order to get those buffs together for 3 seconds you have to do a fully charged resto + using an ultimate that costs 150 ult (soul siphon)

While every class has easy access to major defile at 100% uptime via: duroks bane, Cyrodiils crest, reverb bash, lethal arrow, diseases damage enchant and that's only the non class skills.
Minor defile can be applied via poisons or fassalas guile.

TL:DR:
Defiles are too easy to get, too strong, don't have high opportunity cost and punish specs which aren't specced into healing even more than full healing specs

It is apparent to me that you never actually tested out any of those numbers or how the different passives/debuffs interact with each other. Like... not even a little bit. You didnt' even get the most basic part of the formula right.

This kind of post doesn't help and it's a large reason as to why wrobel and the balance team let these issues go on... they have no way of knowing whether the feedback is based off of empiracal evidence or just some guesses.

That's not guesses that's how these things are calculated in the game.

Thogard · June 2018

BohnT wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

On the topic of defiles and healing i made a post some time ago i will just post it here again.
Some math with Defiles/ healing CP and buffs
"This doesn't show the problems with defiles in general however.
Saying we are on a magnb with the following healing bonuses active: major mending, minor mending, major & minor vitality + 100 points into blessed and quick recovery)
We heal ourselves with an ability with a tooltip of 2k (before buffs and debuffs)

This 2k heal gets reduced by 50% instantly with Battle spirit.
Now our heal is 1k.
1k * 1,3 * 1.25 * 1.3225 * 1.08 * 1.08 = 2506.6

Now an enemy hits us with minor and major defile + 100 points into befoul
Our heal gets reduced to: 2506.6*0.3 = 751.98

Let's assume we get a crit aswell: then we are at 1127.9 after defiles.
The difference is that no class can actually keep those buffs up to negate the defiles while it's extremely easy to have a major defile uptime of 100% and minor defile also has an uptime above 50% when you build for it.

Also we aren't factoring any opportunity costs which are extremely low for Befoul and defiles while they are really high for healing and heal buffs"

Opportunity costs for Defiles in detail:
What makes this even more absurd is how little opportunity cost you have for increasing the effectiveness of defiles via cp.
Both healing done and taken are in the offensive or defensive cp trees located, meaning if you want to boost your healing you are losing either lots of damage or damage mitigation which makes the effectiveness of the investment rather low as you increase your healing yes but you also eat more damage.

Befoul however is located in the green cp that has little effect on your build past ~150 points spend as you already have all the cps you need for your build. Now you still have access to 100 cp and you can use them on befoul without losing damage or survivability. Further investment in the other cps only give you diminishing returns so it's much more useful to just put everything into befoul.

What makes defiles even stronger is the ease of applying them in contrast to getting the heal buffs.
Only one class has access to both major and minor vitality and major mending and only with a rest staff equipped (nightblade) and in order to get those buffs together for 3 seconds you have to do a fully charged resto + using an ultimate that costs 150 ult (soul siphon)

While every class has easy access to major defile at 100% uptime via: duroks bane, Cyrodiils crest, reverb bash, lethal arrow, diseases damage enchant and that's only the non class skills.
Minor defile can be applied via poisons or fassalas guile.

TL:DR:
Defiles are too easy to get, too strong, don't have high opportunity cost and punish specs which aren't specced into healing even more than full healing specs

It is apparent to me that you never actually tested out any of those numbers or how the different passives/debuffs interact with each other. Like... not even a little bit. You didnt' even get the most basic part of the formula right.

This kind of post doesn't help and it's a large reason as to why wrobel and the balance team let these issues go on... they have no way of knowing whether the feedback is based off of empiracal evidence or just some guesses.

That's not guesses that's how these things are calculated in the game.

No, it's not. It's not even close.

EDIT: for clarity, you got literally everything in your formula wrong. Everything that you multiplied, should have been added. and everything that you added should have been multiplied.

But dont just flip those things aroudn because it's far more complex. You need to separate out the healing done and finalize that number, then figure out your healing received multiplier. Things get interesting when defile (especially minor defile) interacts with the healing received passives.

I normally don't blow people up on the boards like this, but it really bothers me when people spread misinformation about such an important subject in a post meant to be read by the people making balance decisions.

themaddaedra · June 2018

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

Masel · June 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

themaddaedra · June 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

Edit to make it more clear: Let's say enough numbers of players say Force Pulse should hit for 100k. Does it make Force Pulse not hitting for 100k a priority pain point?

Masel · June 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

It doesn't seem like you really understood what the program is about. We are there to reflect feedback that the community wants to give to ZoS, with reasoning. If we'd only give our own opinions in the meetings, how would we be reflecting what the community wants? Would be pretty biased then. A lack of stamina morphs for stamsorcs was also mentioned, but mobility was just there more often, nothing to argue about that. Not only did you assume that we took feedback as we received it without reflection, but also that we apparently have no clue about the game. I'm already tired to justify all the hard work we invested into doing the best job we can here and half of the players say "why is that not in there, why is that not in there". I posted statistics on all the feedback we received and we focused on the points that were recurring and dominant, because that's what the whole program was about.

Argonianwerecroc212 · June 2018

Can we get more wereforms it could be crownstore activate and strictly cosmetic it would fit lore perfectly

themaddaedra · June 2018

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

themaddaedra wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

It doesn't seem like you really understood what the program is about. We are there to reflect feedback that the community wants to give to ZoS, with reasoning. If we'd only give our own opinions in the meetings, how would we be reflecting what the community wants? Would be pretty biased then. A lack of stamina morphs for stamsorcs was also mentioned, but mobility was just there more often, nothing to argue about that. Not only did you assume that we took feedback as we received it without reflection, but also that we apparently have no clue about the game. I'm already tired to justify all the hard work we invested into doing the best job we can here and half of the players say "why is that not in there, why is that not in there". I posted statistics on all the feedback we received and we focused on the points that were recurring and dominant, because that's what the whole program was about.

I didn't say anything about doing it completely on your own will, i basically asked what part in-depth class knowledge takes in this? Reflecting doesn't require it. Because as someone who rolled sorc hard over years -not in the casual sense- i'm not assuming, i just know mobility is nowhere being prior issue.

Tho my question is basically answered, it's all about what majority wants then. Thanks for respond.

mr_wazzabi · June 2018

Great points, but nothing was mentioned about 2h imbalance in pve. The 2h light attack nerf was unecessary. Was this discussed at all?

Forceful should crit again. What was the reason for removing its crit?

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

Edit to make it more clear: Let's say enough numbers of players say Force Pulse should hit for 100k. Does it make Force Pulse not hitting for 100k a priority pain point?

There's a big difference between "sorcs have mobility issues" and "force pulse should hit for 100k". One claim is legit according to the game's base design and the other one isn't, according to that same game's base design.
The class reps' in-depth knowledge of the game is needed to sort out between legit concern and biased/trolling ones (such as your example). And the quantitative aspect gives a correct idea of how painful the pain points are.

The major bias in the process is the size and representativity of the sample of players who actually participate - much more than in the class reps. But I don't see any way to actually bypass that bias;

hregrin · June 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

themaddaedra wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

How it ended up there? Because it was mentioned a lot int he feedback, that is why. You may disagree with it, but it is a point that occured often (15.79% of responses to be exact)

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

It doesn't seem like you really understood what the program is about. We are there to reflect feedback that the community wants to give to ZoS, with reasoning. If we'd only give our own opinions in the meetings, how would we be reflecting what the community wants? Would be pretty biased then. A lack of stamina morphs for stamsorcs was also mentioned, but mobility was just there more often, nothing to argue about that. Not only did you assume that we took feedback as we received it without reflection, but also that we apparently have no clue about the game. I'm already tired to justify all the hard work we invested into doing the best job we can here and half of the players say "why is that not in there, why is that not in there". I posted statistics on all the feedback we received and we focused on the points that were recurring and dominant, because that's what the whole program was about.

I didn't say anything about doing it completely on your own will, i basically asked what part in-deapth class knowledge takes in this? Reflecting doesn't require it. Because as someone who rolled sorc hard over years -not in the casual sense- i'm not assuming, i just know mobility is nowhere being prior issue.

Tho my question is basically answered, it's all about what majority wants then. Thanks for respond.

We only see the points that were addressed. We don't have a word by word transcription of the meeting. So yeah, we mainly see the community concerns since it's what drives the topics discussed. The game experience part drives the contents of those topics, not whether they are addressed at all.

ak_pvp · June 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

All in all cool stuff, yet sorc feedback is just meh.

First;

Masel92 wrote: »

GandTheImpaler wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I did not see any mention of pets negatively impacting mechanics in trials. There are a lot of trial boss fights where pets are not recommended.

This causes negative attitude of other players towards pet sorcerers and pushes them away from their preferred play-style.

Trial fights should be changes so that pets don't affect any of the mechanics. Please have that looked into as well.

We did touch base on those in the same section we talked about pets in pvp. The fact they take players buffs, are weird to control, etc. We talked about both ends of the game for those

In fact, the devs asked for a list of trials and mechanics where pets were undesirable to have a look at them.

i wonder why this did not end up in notes. I wouldn't be unnecessarily triggered in the first hand if i saw it in notes.

Second; how on earth sorc mobility made it up there as a priority pain point? Sounds like a joke. But not. Neither magicka nor stamina sorcs have a class spammable, they go up and down together with destro and dual wield changes, which is also the reason why we can't have unique changes. All dependant on weapon skills. Yet somehow mobility came up as a bigger issue. Idk anymore lol.

Because there are many options for spammables, and they aren't needed in the class. Lack of mobility can't really be outsourced as well.

anitajoneb17_ESO · June 2018

themaddaedra wrote: »

Tho my question is basically answered, it's all about what majority wants then. Thanks for respond.

More appropriately, it's about what the majority considers a problem.
If I understood the process correctly, the class reps only report problems, the solutions are 100% on ZOS' side (even though they may discuss the options with the the reps - which makes sense).

themaddaedra · June 2018

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

themaddaedra wrote: »

So all this clas rep stuff is copy-paste feedback? Why ZoS required in-depth class knowledge if the job was all about noting comments and giving them to devs? I don't see in-depth class knowledge on that.

Edit to make it more clear: Let's say enough numbers of players say Force Pulse should hit for 100k. Does it make Force Pulse not hitting for 100k a priority pain point?

There's a big difference between "sorcs have mobility issues" and "force pulse should hit for 100k". One claim is legit according to the game's base design and the other one isn't, according to that same game's base design.
The class reps' in-depth knowledge of the game is needed to sort out between legit concern and biased/trolling ones (such as your example). And the quantitative aspect gives a correct idea of how painful the pain points are.

The major bias in the process is the size and representativity of the sample of players who actually participate - much more than in the class reps. But I don't see any way to actually bypass that bias;

That’s kind of same as my point. In-depth sorcerer knowledge should have realized that mobility is not issue imo.

Tho i guess many will think it's just my bias, so i won't argue further on it. As i said before it's just all in all cool stuff.

DanteYoda · June 2018

Man i hope they do something about warden pve, and not ruin the ice tank and healer aspects in the process...

gnarlyvandal · June 2018

greenmachine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS
Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”

I've got a bad feeling about this

It’s because our good skills have to be double slotted on both bars. Pets, Daedric armour, inner light... Using dark deal’s a dps loss anyway, so to nerf other skills to make dark deal more viable on the bar essentially double nerfs the Sorc.

Please don’t...

Everything else on this looks amazing though. Good job

Hurbster · June 2018

Sounds great, is this going to be a regular thing ?

Was anyone brave enough to mention skills locked behind PvP/PvE at all, as it affects all classes ?

Ragnarock41 · June 2018

Hurbster wrote: »

Sounds great, is this going to be a regular thing ?

Was anyone brave enough to mention skills locked behind PvP/PvE at all, as it affects all classes ?

What about skills locked behind pay walls?

To be serious the real issue is the fact that alliance war skills are used in PvE. This should not be a thing. I can understand vigor as its the only stam heal, buuut caltrops should be about area denial/slowing down people, not pve dps. And warhorn is never ever used in PvP(cause unless you're a pure tank there isn't a reason). Which is sad.

Aedaryl · June 2018

When I heard people saying dark conversion is good sustain for magicka sorc, I just laugh.

DID PEOPLE FORGET WE NEED THAT SKILL BECAUSE STREAK WAS NERFED ?

Dark conversion is used in 99% when you kite people between streaks.

Mobility is actually a true problem for magicka sorcerers.

We don't have a way to purge snare and immobilisation
We have an expendotial cost on our mobility SKILL
We are bound with a second skill (Dark conversion) to be able to effectively use our mobility skill.

Take a look at anything stamina related.

All decent stamina build have perma major expedition (cuz lingering + speed potion is BiS for everyone, and NB hwo don't use it have major expedition with bow + rolldodge or spijic skill).

Major expedition + speed is :

- Faster than streak : heavy armor are a bit more quick and medium armor is miles away (not even speak about stop streaking cuz u need to dark conversion)

- Cheaper than streak : There is no way you can chase a stamina player with ur sorc, you will be OOM far before he will be OOS

- Is 2 bar skill cheaper than sorc mobility : U just need to sprint, and you don't need to have 1/5 of your bar skill only dedicated to be mobile.

ADD SNARE IMMUNITY + REMOVAL and the "mobile sorc" is just a dream.

mSorc actually seems mobile, but the 5 stamina classes are more mobile and doesn't need 2 skill to do it.

ezio45 · June 2018

technohic wrote: »

greenmachine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*] Sustain in PvE is a pain point. Dark Deal is hard to fit on a sorcerer bar for to remain competitive DPS
Wrobel questioned “Is lack of bar space because Sorcerer has too many good abilities?”

I've got a bad feeling about this

Lol it’s a fair question to one degree but the premise of it being possible to have “too many good abilities “. I’d hope to se every class ability to be good and therefore be more good abilities than bar slots.

its not really even good abilites, its needed abilities. with pets your down a bar slot or 2, inner light is usually double bar'd and aegis not needing to be double bar'd helps but even then its still a non damaging skill that needs to be slotted to be competitive pve with nbs

and also dark conversation sucks, the delay its to much to make it viably, youd lose more dps from using it than just heavy attacking. If they kept it a delay that would be fine, were it goes off after you hit it but the cast time would take to much time away from dps to the point it wouldnt benefit from just replacing your force pulse with heavy attacks

Maryal · June 2018

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Some good suggestions, not going to lie though, I'm a bit disappointed by the nightblade feedback.

I don't like the middle ground approach to cloak...I just do not see how that can be implemented. What are they talking about here? A 50% chance of cloaking?
I just have a bad feeling about this.

Why should the stun be removed from incap? Why not remove defile? The stun is vital for nightblades to land a burst combo, the defile however is a buff to an ability that doesn't need it. Especially with 2-3 nightblades on you, the defile has a very high uptime, here the ability becomes truly ridiculous.

More out of cloak defense options? Ugh what will they do to cloak???

I know cloak is annoying but it is the core defense mechanic of the class and I think it really defines the nb playstyle. Without the option to kite with shadow image and to become invisible, the nightblade class would lose much of its appeal to me. In 1v1 situations using cloak as a defense is widely considered cowardly and feels very unsatisfying. And if you're not using cloak, a lot of builds have arguably stronger defences.
If cloak is severely nerfed, magblades will need an additional shield and snare immunity so they can reliably use shadow image.

Cloak is overperforming on stamblades, but you should take a look at stamblades separately and not destroy the magicka class in the process of balancing stamina. Stamblades can pretty much pull of any playstyle on a top tier level so by all means nerf them, but don't nerf cloak!

I agree with you, I was very disappointed also.

I'm going to expand a little on why I am disappointed:

Some players, even some NBs are very opinionated when it comes to cloak, and IMO, not for the better of the class. There is an opinion that cloak is OP, but that view looks at the skill in isolation, and generally in a pvp context (for the most part). Cloak is part of a class 'defensive paring skill' (for lack of a better term). Every class needs 2 basic skill types as the basis for any decent defense. The first is a decent healing skill (not some whimpy HOT either), and the second is a skill that can be used to help the healing skill 'do it's thing' (keep in mind, we are talking class skills here).

For example, Templar's purge; sorc's zoom-zoom / shield; DK's wings; and Warden's shield & free- spammable netch purge. What do NB's have as a 'defensive paring skill'? Cloak ... that is, when it works.

Any 'defensive paring skill' can be use in an offensive manner - it's the nature of the beast and not much you can do there. Unfortunately, NB's cloak happens to be the most annoying 'defensive paring skill' of any of the classes. I could be wrong, but I don't think a NB who wants to run away from a fight like a scared little girl is what bothers most people. What seems off-putting to most people is the sneaky-sneaky 'you can't see me before I hit you' offensive manner in which cloak can be used. The problem is you can't make a 'defensive paring skill' in such a way as to 'only' operate defensively, not unless you butcher the skill to the point of it being useless.

As for this 'resetting of the fight' commentary I frequently see - Technically, the only 'fight resetting' that goes on is in pve when the mobs automatically disengage (stop looking for you) if you cloak more than 12 seconds or so (or pop an invisibility potion). So, in a pvp context, the way the phrase 'reset the fight' is used -- when a player LOS for a quick heal/buff before re-engaging in the fight - isn't that tantamount to 'resetting the fight' ? Yes. The fight pauses momentarily - heal, buff, pop a potion, back to the fight. It's just when NB's 'LOS' by cloaking - it's annoying, really annoying (but annoying doesn't equate to OP).

Let's not forget the pve NBs - playing a stealthy, invisible, cloaking character can be very immersive and heck-a-fun (the idea is to be unnoticed, undetected ... the goal is to avoid engaging in combat). At a minimum, a NB needs to be able to cloak 3x in a row - less than that would ruin it for the class.

Anastian · June 2018

Maryal wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Some good suggestions, not going to lie though, I'm a bit disappointed by the nightblade feedback.

I don't like the middle ground approach to cloak...I just do not see how that can be implemented. What are they talking about here? A 50% chance of cloaking?
I just have a bad feeling about this.

Why should the stun be removed from incap? Why not remove defile? The stun is vital for nightblades to land a burst combo, the defile however is a buff to an ability that doesn't need it. Especially with 2-3 nightblades on you, the defile has a very high uptime, here the ability becomes truly ridiculous.

More out of cloak defense options? Ugh what will they do to cloak???

I know cloak is annoying but it is the core defense mechanic of the class and I think it really defines the nb playstyle. Without the option to kite with shadow image and to become invisible, the nightblade class would lose much of its appeal to me. In 1v1 situations using cloak as a defense is widely considered cowardly and feels very unsatisfying. And if you're not using cloak, a lot of builds have arguably stronger defences.
If cloak is severely nerfed, magblades will need an additional shield and snare immunity so they can reliably use shadow image.

Cloak is overperforming on stamblades, but you should take a look at stamblades separately and not destroy the magicka class in the process of balancing stamina. Stamblades can pretty much pull of any playstyle on a top tier level so by all means nerf them, but don't nerf cloak!

I agree with you, I was very disappointed also.

I'm going to expand a little on why I am disappointed:

Some players, even some NBs are very opinionated when it comes to cloak, and IMO, not for the better of the class. There is an opinion that cloak is OP, but that view looks at the skill in isolation, and generally in a pvp context (for the most part). Cloak is part of a 'defensive paring skill' (for lack of a better term). Every class needs 2 basic skill types as the basis for any decent defense. The first is a decent healing skill (not some whimpy HOT either), and the second is a skill that can be used to help the healing skill 'do it's thing.'

For example, Templar's purge; sorc's zoom-zoom / shield stacking; DK's wings; and Warden's shield & free- spammable netch purge. What do NB's have as a 'defensive paring skill'? Cloak ... that is, when it works.

Any 'defensive paring skill' can be use in an offensive manner - it's the nature of the beast and not much you can do there. Unfortunately, NB's cloak happens to be the most annoying 'defensive paring skill' of any of the classes. I could be wrong, but I don't think a NB who wants to run away from a fight like a scared little girl is what bothers most people. What seems off-putting to most people is the sneaky-sneaky 'you can't see me before I hit you' offensive manner in which cloak can be used. The problem is you can't make a 'defensive paring skill' in such a way as to 'only' operate defensively, not unless you butcher the skill to the point of it being useless.

As for this 'resetting of the fight' commentary I frequently see - Technically, the only 'fight resetting' that goes on is in pve when the mobs automatically disengage (stop looking for you) if you cloak more than 12 seconds or so (or pop an invisibility potion). So, in a pvp context, the way the phrase 'reset the fight' is used -- when a player LOS for a quick heal/buff before re-engaging in the fight - isn't that tantamount to 'resetting the fight' ? Yes. The fight pauses momentarily - heal, buff, pop a potion, back to the fight. It's just when NB's 'LOS' by cloaking - it's annoying, really annoying (but annoying doesn't equate to OP).

Let's not forget the pve NBs - playing a stealthy, invisible, cloaking character can be very immersive and heck-a-fun (the idea is to be unnoticed, undetected ... the goal is to avoid engaging in combat). At a minimum, a NB needs to be able to cloak 3x in a row - less than that would ruin it for the class.

As a Nightblade Magicka, I totally agree.
If they remove the core of our class, stealth/invisibility, we'll just become some generic staff wielders.

Incap nerf is reasonable, Strife nerf was reasonable as it brought the skill on par with other spammables, however given that we are the least resistant of all classes (no purge, has to rely on non-class shields, strong HoTs but no instant strong cure) and the most single target focused class, cloaking feels like a skill that really defines our playstyle, along with the Shade teleport.

I don't know, it really feels as if this discussion was off track...

ezio45 · June 2018

Would just like to say thank you to the reps, you all have done a really great job helping out the community