[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread
Update 46 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/676209
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OK. I have been running magplar recently and have ran stamplar quite a bit as well as every other class including necro and will do my to the letter 2 pain points for templar.
As a backdrop for my perspective as I mostly just PvP. Overall; I think templar is in a decent spot from a PvP perspective with stamina kind of lagging behind. My stamplar hits pretty hard when I run it and extended ritual is the only difference maker here compared to other classes. My magplar has considerably lower damage and burst values but is predicated on having some PBAOEs and DOTs going at the same time as sweeps so its not about hitting hard, but having a lot of things hitting. With that said; here is where I feel the shortfalls are.
1. For both stam and magicka; we lack any practical major debuffss that synergize with the class. Sweeps and Jabs seem to be our spammable and are a conal AOE but the couple we get, minor fracture on POTL is single target, off balance on charge is single target, major defile on dark flare (not worthwhile to use now) is AOE but on a single target attack? Perhaps I am mistaken and we should go more single target, but the core of both templars damage is getting reduced by evasion.
2. For both mag and stam; lack of decent proactive defense. My necro has a spirit mener that absorbs 10%. Warden has shields that absorb ranged and give ultimate. DKs have wings wether they like it or not 50% ranged damage reduction is strong (the buff is too short and too potent IMO) NBs now have relentless focus stacks. Sorcs have a class shield and ability to still stack shields. All of theirs work on offensive builds. Templars have radiant ward which is crap for defense and mediocre at offense, or the other morph blazing shield which is pretty much just crap unless you stack health to the high heavens, then its just a turd rather than a full blown crap. Neither really do anything for stamplar.
Think that would be my top 2 at the moment.
Mine would be:
- passives that don't really do anything except boost abilities that don't make sense. Defense/offense additions should happen here.
- clunky mechanics and important debuffs that make you select morphs that change your playstyle. Want major defile for melee pressure? Too bad because 💩 hitting dark flare has it so now you'll be using two channels. Want to slot your class shield? To bad, block cancel heals are better. While some mechanics are there for balance, it would be great to get things compiled that matched their recent audit (explosive Charge pulling enemies near aoe out of stealth, randiant ward ranged increased to match others, eclipse to match other mechanics, cc options looked into to see if we can get rid of some redundancies to promote getting those buffs, etc).
That's where my feedback goes.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agreed @Cinbri. Reducing animations casting light all over the place will help in performance. I get huge FPS studder now when before it wasn't as bad. The game feels like a golf cart trying to be outfitted for a Nascar race lol.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
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Mine would be:
- passives that don't really do anything except boost abilities that don't make sense. Defense/offense additions should happen here.
- clunky mechanics and important debuffs that make you select morphs that change your playstyle. Want major defile for melee pressure? Too bad because 💩 hitting dark flare has it so now you'll be using two channels. Want to slot your class shield? To bad, block cancel heals are better. While some mechanics are there for balance, it would be great to get things compiled that matched their recent audit (explosive Charge pulling enemies near aoe out of stealth, randiant ward ranged increased to match others, eclipse to match other mechanics, cc options looked into to see if we can get rid of some redundancies to promote getting those buffs, etc).
That's where my feedback goes.
Yeah. I wanted to go into passives but I felt it would get too nuanced where they want just pain points. Hoping for that evaluation they talked about but not holding my breath0 -
Drdeath20✭✭✭✭✭
✭We never really needed new classes. We needed OG classes updated and fairly often to keep up. Now templars are soo far behind its really hard to even know where to begin.2 -
Dunning_Kruger✭✭✭✭Oh well if all you want is for the animations and bugs to be fixed lemme help you out. It is not happening. If it’s been 4 years a buggy ability; it’s a class feature mate.____________________________________
A G G R O - the legendary stamplar GM of <HALL MONITORS>
For the Queen bby0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭tbh i used puncturing sweeps recently on target dummy and in sunspire and while i'm sure i'm not timing LAs perfectly the dps is roughly the same compared to parses with elemental weapon.
So i wouldn't say, sweeps sucks.Noobplar0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭tbh i used puncturing sweeps recently on target dummy and in sunspire and while i'm sure i'm not timing LAs perfectly the dps is roughly the same compared to parses with elemental weapon.
So i wouldn't say, sweeps sucks.
Do you have any combat metric data ?
Because i do have data on 6m dummy where i do more dmg with elemental weapons
I do more dmg with Elemental weapons self buffed than puncturing sweeps in trial condition with all buff lolEdited by Delparis on June 10, 2019 8:49PM1 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭Sorc got those skills Absorption Field:
Create a globe of magic suppression, dispelling enemy placed effects instantly. Enemies within the globe are stunned for 12 seconds. Enemy players will be silenced rather than stunned.
Can't Zos devs make Sacred Ground passive works the same way:
Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus or Rite of Passage areas of effect are rooted for x second. Enemy players have their Movement Speed reduced by 15%.
@Cinbri @Checkmath1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Sorc got those skills Absorption Field:
Create a globe of magic suppression, dispelling enemy placed effects instantly. Enemies within the globe are stunned for 12 seconds. Enemy players will be silenced rather than stunned.
Can't Zos devs make Sacred Ground passive works the same way:
Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus or Rite of Passage areas of effect are rooted for x second. Enemy players have their Movement Speed reduced by 15%.
@Cinbri @Checkmath
I like that idea.1 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
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Do you have any combat metric data ?
Because i do have data on 6m dummy where i do more dmg with elemental weapons
I do more dmg with Elemental weapons self buffed than puncturing sweeps in trial condition with all buff lol
Really...you use 2 different encounters to compare skills and ask me for proof?
The difference in DPS comes mostly from missed LightAttacks in the second parse...i don't know why, but ping was spiking all the time when i did the second one...
Noobplar2 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭@Destruent what i see is that sweeps does less dmg (14k max) than elemental weapon (35k dmg).0
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Destruent what i see is that sweeps does less dmg (14k max) than elemental weapon (35k dmg).
14k*4 = 56k but really you ought to be looking at the average, 25k for eleweapon and 10k*4= 40k for sweeps. less casts for sweeps then ele weapon too, 65 casts vs sweeps 50.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on June 11, 2019 10:21PM1 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
14k*4 = 56k but really you ought to be looking at the average, 25k for eleweapon and 10k*4= 40k for sweeps. less casts for sweeps then ele weapon too, 65 casts vs sweeps 50.
Wrong because you can cast 2 elemental weapons within 1 sec
So this makes 50k for elem weapons vs 40k for sweeps0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Wrong because you can cast 2 elemental weapons within 1 sec
So this makes 50k for elem weapons vs 40k for sweeps
you literally cant do that.0 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
you literally cant do that.
magical 1s
This discussion is funny because it highlights the importance of crit resist in pvp, and largely why sweeps doesn't perform like it should. Not only do you deal with 50% less dmg but youll also deal 50% less crits. For an ability that revolves around sustain pressure, having access to crits half locked away is powerful mitigation.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
14k*4 = 56k but really you ought to be looking at the average, 25k for eleweapon and 10k*4= 40k for sweeps. less casts for sweeps then ele weapon too, 65 casts vs sweeps 50.
It's also worth mentioning, that sweeps increases your dps from burning light by ~1k dps, while elemental increases your dps with burning/concussion/chilled.
Sweeps also pulls ahead if there are adds next to the boss or if you need the selfheal (e.g. vSS last boss portal team)
I may also add, that someone already showed, that sweeps can weaved as fast as elemental weapon, which makes it stronger imo...seems like I'm just too slow for that.
Edit: stupid autocorrect....Edited by Destruent on June 12, 2019 5:56PMNoobplar1 -
Vajrak✭✭✭
It's also worth mentioning, that sweeps increases your dps from burning light by ~1k dps, while elemental increases your dps with burning/concussion/chilled.
Sweeps also pulls ahead if there are adds next to the boss or if you need the selfheal (e.g. vSS last boss portal team)
I may also add, that someone already showed, that sweeps can weaved as fast as elemental weapon, which makes it stronger imo...seems like I'm just too slow for that.
Edit: stupid autocorrect....
You aren't too slow. With the change to the GCD the weave timing changed. Want an easy way to aim for it --- tap LA on the 3rd jab, the 4th and the LA fire near simultaneously that way.0 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
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I doubt zos will ever do such split nowdays, it kinda relic of the past. There is higher chance that they will overhaul some of our useless passives into other way of affecting pve and pvp - we already have it in form of Piercing Spear - probably best aedric spear passive, at least within this passive such split works perfectly when its overall power splitted between 2 bonuses, one of which is bis in pve and also nice in pvp while 2nd bonus works only in pvp and very conditional yet strong.Sorc got those skills Absorption Field:
Create a globe of magic suppression, dispelling enemy placed effects instantly. Enemies within the globe are stunned for 12 seconds. Enemy players will be silenced rather than stunned.
Can't Zos devs make Sacred Ground passive works the same way:
Enemies standing in your Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus or Rite of Passage areas of effect are rooted for x second. Enemy players have their Movement Speed reduced by 15%.
@Cinbri @Checkmath
Purifying Light - I hope zos wont leave it in its current state of being bugged/severed its effect. If they afraid that apply healing pool on cast instead expire will be too op coz possibility to stack it while this hot as strong as rapid regen - then how bout make healing pool to proc on caster of skill upon casting spell. Wont be possible to stack skill will be reliable hot for caster as it will be on him not on enemy whom you should go melee to get effect and in pve will help in ranged fights where healer will stand near ranged dps.
Ultimates - I guess overall problem that Radial Sweep tat is fully offensive ult is located in defensive skill line of aedric spear while Nova that is fully defensive ult is locatd in offensive skill line of dawn wrath wont be ever fixed and those ult wont be swaped.
Here is some thoughts on improving templar ults:
1. If Rite of Passage should be stayed as it is - how bout make heal on caster as hot instead of heal attached to channel. As result caster will decide to support group with aoe heal or, when solo, to cancel channel to cancel group heal but hot will remain on caster and ult will serve as proper self-heal ult without group heal.
2. Improvement of Radial Sweep. So, Nova it seems made to be ult only for pve or in pvp only for ball-groups, Rite of Passage for healbots and tanks. It leave Sweep as brad and butter for small-scalers and solo templars, so it need improvement to be more universal ult, through scaling mechanic at least.
If it suppose to be offensive ult - use scaling to improve its offensive capability by CC/damage bonuses, because usefulness of ult depends on its functionality, not on pure damage, and Sweep don't have much of functionality, only damage.. Thus it will synergize with Rite of Passage being our defensive ult. Mainbar - Sweep, backbar - RoP.
If this ult should regain some of its defensive capability as it located in tanking tree - use scaling to grant defensive bonus:
A. It can be old Major Protection for Xsec upon activation, like it was in old Empowering Sweep (and to avoid redundancy - swap protection from Remembrance into other effect, like major vitality or mending given that it healing ult)
B. Another more unique way - make it like smaller version of ults like Permafrost/Nova/etc., i.e. ult capable of damage and group survivability. Taking into account that dot is divine energy - we already have set that imitate divine explosion - Trinimac Valor, that deal damage by aoe explosion and heal allies in radius by divine energy. So, how about after scaling make dot also heal inside dot radius so dot will deal damage to enemies and heal caster+allies at same time, like ultimate version of trinimac.2 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭
You aren't too slow. With the change to the GCD the weave timing changed. Want an easy way to aim for it --- tap LA on the 3rd jab, the 4th and the LA fire near simultaneously that way.
I would rather not have to rely my weaving on attention to tunnel vision on Jabs/Sweeps because doing so causes us to lose attention on our LOS around us. Being that channeling our main spammable already puts us at high risk by not being able to animation cancel, block cancel, defend while attack, etc...this is just an extremely LAZY approach on part of ZOS to Templar players.
Jabs/Sweeps should NOT be a Channel...It should be an Instant Cast ability that targets Target and has AOE Splash damage. Get rid of the poor Conal hit box and channel and problems are basically solved with this skill. If you want to keep as a channel, still make it on Target and not Cone Radius but reduce the Channel time to .2s per Jab/Sweep, reduce the number of sweeps to 3 from 4 - increase damage per sweep to compensate.0 -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
I would rather not have to rely my weaving on attention to tunnel vision on Jabs/Sweeps because doing so causes us to lose attention on our LOS around us. Being that channeling our main spammable already puts us at high risk by not being able to animation cancel, block cancel, defend while attack, etc...this is just an extremely LAZY approach on part of ZOS to Templar players.
Jabs/Sweeps should NOT be a Channel...It should be an Instant Cast ability that targets Target and has AOE Splash damage. Get rid of the poor Conal hit box and channel and problems are basically solved with this skill. If you want to keep as a channel, still make it on Target and not Cone Radius but reduce the Channel time to .2s per Jab/Sweep, reduce the number of sweeps to 3 from 4 - increase damage per sweep to compensate.
Sounds great to me...with this change sweeps would also benefit from fire-destro and it would improve targeting by a lot.Noobplar0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PoL should be major fracture but only copy damage from the caster. I’m so sick of having to run two damage sets on Stamplar to get anywhere near enough pressure and sacrificing my stats to do so. No other class I have, has the issue of choosing between decent stars and recoveryJabbs_Giggity wrote: »
I would rather not have to rely my weaving on attention to tunnel vision on Jabs/Sweeps because doing so causes us to lose attention on our LOS around us. Being that channeling our main spammable already puts us at high risk by not being able to animation cancel, block cancel, defend while attack, etc...this is just an extremely LAZY approach on part of ZOS to Templar players.
Jabs/Sweeps should NOT be a Channel...It should be an Instant Cast ability that targets Target and has AOE Splash damage. Get rid of the poor Conal hit box and channel and problems are basically solved with this skill. If you want to keep as a channel, still make it on Target and not Cone Radius but reduce the Channel time to .2s per Jab/Sweep, reduce the number of sweeps to 3 from 4 - increase damage per sweep to compensate.
Instant cast single target with splash would be (sounds) great. I’m so sick of the jabs hit box especially in PvP.1 -
Altyrann✭✭✭✭✭First and foremost, I'd love to see some of the major bugs with the class addressed before new changes start being pushed through. As a Magicka DD in PvE primarily I would love to see Purifying Light (stored damage only sometimes actually does damage) and Puncturing Sweeps (mistimed animation slows rotation and makes weaving horrible) back in the toolkit.
In terms of potential changes, i'd like to see the class have major sorcery/brutality on a class skill somewhere just as a quality of life thing rather than a buff.
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Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭First and foremost, I'd love to see some of the major bugs with the class addressed before new changes start being pushed through. As a Magicka DD in PvE primarily I would love to see Purifying Light (stored damage only sometimes actually does damage) and Puncturing Sweeps (mistimed animation slows rotation and makes weaving horrible) back in the toolkit.
In terms of potential changes, i'd like to see the class have major sorcery/brutality on a class skill somewhere just as a quality of life thing rather than a buff.
This.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PoL should be major fracture but only copy damage from the caster. I’m so sick of having to run two damage sets on Stamplar to get anywhere near enough pressure and sacrificing my stats to do so. No other class I have, has the issue of choosing between decent stars and recovery
Instant cast single target with splash would be (sounds) great. I’m so sick of the jabs hit box especially in PvP.
The first one is a big "yes" from me. We dont really have any major debuff or buff to boost damage. Would be a good way to boost templar damage without adding more to heal bot templars healing.
2nd part I'd rather keep the cleave, but at that case, the surrounding targets should be taking more damage. Should go 1 way or the other though.0 -
Vajrak✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
I would rather not have to rely my weaving on attention to tunnel vision on Jabs/Sweeps because doing so causes us to lose attention on our LOS around us. Being that channeling our main spammable already puts us at high risk by not being able to animation cancel, block cancel, defend while attack, etc...this is just an extremely LAZY approach on part of ZOS to Templar players.
Jabs/Sweeps should NOT be a Channel...It should be an Instant Cast ability that targets Target and has AOE Splash damage. Get rid of the poor Conal hit box and channel and problems are basically solved with this skill. If you want to keep as a channel, still make it on Target and not Cone Radius but reduce the Channel time to .2s per Jab/Sweep, reduce the number of sweeps to 3 from 4 - increase damage per sweep to compensate.
Losing a hit on it means losing a chance to proc Burning Light --- 4 hits/s on a 0.5s CD passive gives us 4 chances minimum to proc, 5 spear shards down.
Practicing your rotation has nothing to do with you having tunnel vision---it's just fine tuning the muscle memory to the new sweet spot---a little practice, and your situational awareness will remain as is.
If they want to get rid of the channel, that's fine, but remember that sweeps does not function in isolation, as Burning Light is a component of it's damage, so if it is going to become a single cast high damage skill, with a splash rider (like Crystal Blast) then the functionality of Burning Light or the damage on proc is going to have to be increased as well, to not result in a net DPS loss.
Test it yourself with a dummy --- doesn't matter which one, just set a window, and use a 1/s skill (spear shards) vs jabs -- and compare burning light procs and damage.
Rough and dirty here:
Test 1
64s of Blazing Spear = 21 Burning Light procs
64s of Sweeps = 33 Burning Light procs
Test 2
8s (1 cast) Blazing Spear = 1 Burning Light procs
8s Sweeps (8 casts) = 4 Burning Light procs
Test 3
62s Blazing Spear = 18 Burning Light procs
58s Sweeps = 32 Burning Light procs
Test 4
Spam Cast Blazing Spear full bar: 27s = 7 Burning Light procs
Space Cast Sweeps full bar: 16s = 9 Burning Light procs
Test 5:
Sweeps full bar = 9 BL procs
Blazing Spear full bar = 5 BL procs
Test 6: 10s, 10s, 8s
Aurora Javelin Spam Cast: 3 BL, 11 hits
Sweeps: 5 BL, 36 hits
Blazing Spear: 3 BL proc, 9 hits
Test 7: 60s, w/ recovery food
Sweeps: 39 BL procs
Blazing: 13 BL procs
Test 8: 60s, w/ recovery food
Sweeps+Blazing: 35 BL procs
Test 9: 60s, w/ recovery food
Aurora Javelin+Blazing: 18 BL procs
That is a lot of damage that would have to be adjusted in to make Sweeps into an instant cast skill. Changing sweeps to single target would necessitate changing Burning Light also --- either into straight penetration, or guaranteed proc per second, at which point Blazing is going to need to be adjusted down on it's damage to retain balance.
0.5s CD on the skill, 120 possible procs on PERFECT CD, that 25% chance makes 30 hits pretty good on it in a 60s window --- and Sweeps hits more of those procs by being a 4 hit channel.
Can look at the Elemental Weapon vs Sweeps parse above also: 99 Burning Light procs with Sweeps vs 72 without, averaging 15-16k (better crit luck on one parse, by ~9%)....That's giving up 405k damage...0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭
Losing a hit on it means losing a chance to proc Burning Light --- 4 hits/s on a 0.5s CD passive gives us 4 chances minimum to proc, 5 spear shards down.
Practicing your rotation has nothing to do with you having tunnel vision---it's just fine tuning the muscle memory to the new sweet spot---a little practice, and your situational awareness will remain as is.
If they want to get rid of the channel, that's fine, but remember that sweeps does not function in isolation, as Burning Light is a component of it's damage, so if it is going to become a single cast high damage skill, with a splash rider (like Crystal Blast) then the functionality of Burning Light or the damage on proc is going to have to be increased as well, to not result in a net DPS loss.
Test it yourself with a dummy --- doesn't matter which one, just set a window, and use a 1/s skill (spear shards) vs jabs -- and compare burning light procs and damage.
Rough and dirty here:
Test 1
64s of Blazing Spear = 21 Burning Light procs
64s of Sweeps = 33 Burning Light procs
Test 2
8s (1 cast) Blazing Spear = 1 Burning Light procs
8s Sweeps (8 casts) = 4 Burning Light procs
Test 3
62s Blazing Spear = 18 Burning Light procs
58s Sweeps = 32 Burning Light procs
Test 4
Spam Cast Blazing Spear full bar: 27s = 7 Burning Light procs
Space Cast Sweeps full bar: 16s = 9 Burning Light procs
Test 5:
Sweeps full bar = 9 BL procs
Blazing Spear full bar = 5 BL procs
Test 6: 10s, 10s, 8s
Aurora Javelin Spam Cast: 3 BL, 11 hits
Sweeps: 5 BL, 36 hits
Blazing Spear: 3 BL proc, 9 hits
Test 7: 60s, w/ recovery food
Sweeps: 39 BL procs
Blazing: 13 BL procs
Test 8: 60s, w/ recovery food
Sweeps+Blazing: 35 BL procs
Test 9: 60s, w/ recovery food
Aurora Javelin+Blazing: 18 BL procs
That is a lot of damage that would have to be adjusted in to make Sweeps into an instant cast skill. Changing sweeps to single target would necessitate changing Burning Light also --- either into straight penetration, or guaranteed proc per second, at which point Blazing is going to need to be adjusted down on it's damage to retain balance.
0.5s CD on the skill, 120 possible procs on PERFECT CD, that 25% chance makes 30 hits pretty good on it in a 60s window --- and Sweeps hits more of those procs by being a 4 hit channel.
Can look at the Elemental Weapon vs Sweeps parse above also: 99 Burning Light procs with Sweeps vs 72 without, averaging 15-16k (better crit luck on one parse, by ~9%)....That's giving up 405k damage...
I remember @ZOS_Gilliam suggesting in his youtube video to remove that 0.5 sec CD on burning light to make the class more aoe oriented.
I guess he forgot everything after being hired by Zenimax.0
