[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

technohic

I actually like remembrance in a situation where a bomb is coming to counter for a few but I do not have a single other ability with as many issues getting it to fire when I need it. I have to stop blocking or moving or it will cancel it out, then it doesnt fire, doesnt fire, doesnt fire, then boom! Dead because I'm not blocking nor using another heal , nor roll dodge because I'm trying to press the ultimate button. A NB d I'm staring at it hard to see if it's going off even if it is

And I'm also kind of tired root and snares when extended ritual has them as the lowest priority to remove, and when it does, they are right back on. For crying out loud, add root/snare removal an immunity to ritual of retribution to make it a real choice.

Jabbs_Giggity

@Cinbri Thank you for taking the time to dissect all that information for everyone. People want to say Templars are in a great spot, but reality is they are just mediocre that can easily outperform less mediocre players...

Right now, I would say offensive capabilities have burst potential but are lacking severe pressure options, and Defensive capabilities are hardly existant. Magplars cannot reliable stay alive for more than .4 seconds without becoming a "Heal Bot" or heavily relying on "Tank" equipment. Stamplars have terrible sustain to adequately play Heavy Armor and Medium Armor is a joke > 2 stroke joke is what I call my Stamplar ;D

There is a lot that goes in to expressing strengths and weaknesses of any class and is solely dependent on playstyle and less dependent on gameskill now-a-days. Point being, overall Templar is lacking in comparison to other classes in ALL roles...
Healers went to Wardens. Oh and I guess now there are plenty of Sorc healers and NB healers that outperform?
DPS by far goes to Warden and NB, then Sorcs and DK's which all have been given utility to suppliment their "weaknesses"...
Tanks...ugh without proper crowd control and lack of proper "tanking" utility...*Ehm Ehm SUN SHIELD = broken...useless...

I mean what gives man?! Just make Templars more horizontally on par with other classes. It's not like we asking to come out Steamin Willy Beamin with an 800K Instakill J-Beam!

Solariken

Checkmath wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I'm still REALLY hoping for a Burning Light rework. A huge portion of Templar damage is locked inside this proc; so much that it keeps us relegated to jab spam. I'd like to see it extended to all damage over time effects. They finally expanded the usefulness of Implosion (Amplitude) to work with all damage so I'm not giving up hope yet!

The proc chance or cooldown would suffer for bringing in such a change. Also some specs might suffer from that one.
Without adjusting proc chance or cooldown, this would lead to an immense increase in dps in PvE, because the procs would happen quite often. It would results in a brainless increase of several k damage. On the other hand specs without much dots (like a PvP-stamplar build with 2h/snb might be restricted and would force dual wields^ and bleeds even more on that class.

@Checkmath absolutely variables would need to be changed, that's why I called it a rework

The change from Implosion to Amplitude was awesome and is exactly the type of universal synergy we need!

Vajrak

...I really wish there was a disagree/dislike button, for so many of these posts...can that count as a pain point?

StarOfElyon

It's hard to really care about the quality of posts concerning the issues that the Templar (especially Magplar) have because I don't have any confidence that anything will change.

Joy_Division

Good Stuff @Cinbri

You are a very brave templar trying to do noCP without major mending when it was replaced by CP blessing and quick recovery stars (along with other stuff Templar needs like block cost reduction).

Checkmath

Joy_Division wrote: »

Good Stuff @Cinbri

You are a very brave templar trying to do noCP without major mending when it was replaced by CP blessing and quick recovery stars (along with other stuff Templar needs like block cost reduction).

I never hear such nice words, when I do noCP PvP....

Jabbs_Giggity

@Checkmath when is the next meeting with ZOS for Class Reps? Have you all met since @ZOS_GinaBruno release the latest Class Rep notes in January?

We would really love some updates from ZOS again before Elswyr, as they did mention performance and balancing would be a priority come soon.

casparian

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

@Checkmath when is the next meeting with ZOS for Class Reps? Have you all met since @ZOS_GinaBruno release the latest Class Rep notes in January?

We would really love some updates from ZOS again before Elswyr, as they did mention performance and balancing would be a priority come soon.

I believe they're meeting literally right now and we should see notes next week.

Minno

Minno wrote: »

Here's my latest comments on abilities/skills that could use adjustments. Remember Templar is actually balanced compared to other classes (mostly because those classes can be broken, doesn't mean it's right). At leasta good Templar has to work for their kills, something other classes could take for granted.

Here's my adjustments; most are bug fixes/passive changes and rest are compensation for some changes:

Minno wrote: »

We just need passives reworked and bug fixes/skill adjustments.

Here are my edits, based on that intent:


Aedric Spear Skill Line:
1. Radial Sweep - increase range to match jabs/sweeps, solar barrage, etc. Otherwise fine.

2. Puncturing Strikes - Ability is fine. Also it should be immune to major evasion; it's fake AOE that has close single target mechanic reduced by easily available buff. Otherwise skills are fine. Drop snare down to 40% instead of 70% to make room for other buffs/changes. They made changes to sets like overwhelming surge which functions the same way but not jabs/reflective light.

3. Piercing Javelin - drop cost so it's cheaper than draining shot for stam toons, and cheaper than master destro reach for mag. Otherwise serves a purpose for some builds and competes with total dark/unstable core/destro reach.

4. Focused Charge -Increase the speed at which gap is closed; skill is too clunky and easy to see coming. Reduce the minimum distance from 3.5m to 1m. Explosive charge to pull enemies out of stealth around the initial target (currently bugged in that is doesn't). This is the only change they should do.

5. Spear Shards - is fine as is.

6. Sun Shield - blazing to become max mag scaled. Radiant ward to remain health scaled for tanks. Otherwise we need to test new bug fixes they added on PTS in live situations before suggesting any other changes to this ability.

Aedric Spear Passives:
1. Piercing Spear - fine as is. Ditch blocked dmg buff if needed for other changes.
2. Spear Wall - buff to 2/4 seconds because minor buffs are supposed to be higher uptime than major.
3. Burning Light - make effect unblocked/undodged as it's applied to your target and has a set cooldown/proc chance. Otherwise fine as is.
4. Balanced Warrior - fine as is.


Dawn’s Wrath Skill Line:
1. Nova - Fine as is. Group ultimate.

2. Sun Fire - crit buff proc off activation not hit and reflective light should not be reduced by major evasion. Otherwise fine.

3. Solar Flare – Dark flare to become similar to solar barrage. Renamed Dark Barrage; scales off stamina stats.

4. eclipse needs rework. Heres how:
- fix ability so that Total Dark's heal is buffed to 67% to account for the cooldown adjustment they made in clockwork city (dmg was increased to compensate but not the heal).
- Then make cc immunity ONLY applied when break free is used; cleansed or expired eclipses should be exempt. If current cc mechanic is to exist, then bubble should be be removed by any means.
- Unstable Core needs major rework. Here is Cinbri's suggestion:

Unstable Core: this morph completely overshadowed by total Dark for several reasons.
Lets take as example couple other classes skills:
Scales: one morph provide snare immunity-defensive morph, other provde higher damage reflect-offensive morph. Yet both morphs retain core feature of skill - to reflect projectiles.
Petrify: one morph root enemy-offensive morph, other provide heal-defensive morph. Yet both morphs retain core feature - to hard cc enemy.
Crystallized Shield: one provide reflect damage-offensive morph, other is major buff. Yet it retain its ability to absorb damage and restore resources.
Rune Prison: hard cc enemy either by your choice or as defense, yet hard cc in any choice.
And now we have Total Dark supposed to be defensive morph and Unstable Core is offensive, but for this skill it not work this way because core feature of this skill was completely changed - while skill is CC it no longer being a reflect, i.e. damage prevent mechanic, nor have any aspect that make it as hard CC - i.e. disabling enemy to prevent him attacking or moving or healing.As result Total Dark retain its core defensive role - it apply bubble and heal caster back providing tanking capability(however don't forget about its 0.750sec cooldown that decrease this utility in everchanging meta), yet Core cant serve as offensive role because core feature of skill was changed to no longer be hard cc variable that should defend caster from receiving damage per se while granting offensive aoe explosion.
There is no point in Core with it current core skill functionality, it should be completely changed, either core utility or morph functionality. Every hard cc no matter offensive or defensive serve as some sort of defense that timely interrupting enemy from his dps rotations, but that not working for Eclipse anymore, unless part of Core feature will be buff proc damage also so it will have lot of returned damage in exchange of lost survivability.

4. Backlash - fine as is. Group burst tool and designed as such.

5. Radiant Destruction – Fine as is. They fixed and buffed it.

Dawn’s Wrath Passives:
1. Enduring Rays - passive reworked. Move sun fire/solar barrage/eclipse 2 second duration increased to base abilities. Then add "increases the duration of your major/minor buffs by 1/3 seconds while an enduring ray passive is slotted."
2. Prism - fine as is.
3. Illuminate - fine as is.
4. Restoring Spirit - fine as is.

Restoring Light Skill Line: Lots of changes to skills and animations.
1. Right of Passage - fine as is with change due to light weaver below. Both morphs grant major protection with slight difference to how it functions in group play. Make one morph increase duration of channel while adding armor to you (much like remembrance works on live). Other morph grants major protection while channeling to allies healed but no extra armor to you.

2. Rushed Ceremony - no change. Fine as is.

3. Healing Ritual - Just drop the cost down on to be like 3 or 4k. One morph grants a HOT to an ally outside the radius. Then other has minor expedition for 6 seconds. Basically no change, just different heal mechanic than bol/htd.

4. Restoring Aura - Radiant Aura to be changed to grant Major Sorcery on application for 20 seconds. Then when enemies hit you, you apply minor mag steal on them for 5 seconds. Competes with ele drain; do you want major breach + single target minor mag steal or major sorcery+wizard reposte style proc chance off the minor mag steal?

5. Cleansing Ritual - rework Ritual of Retribution to grant 1 or 2s of snare/root immunity. Change will only work if root/snare immunity removes the snares/immunity first then debuffs; otherwise no change needed. Extended ritual is fine as is.

6. Rune Focus - Fine as is.

Restoring Light Passives:
2. Mending - Drop to 5% instead of 15% extra healing to account for some of these changes. Also bring minor mending to this passive so it matches the name.
3. Sacred Ground - Remove snare mechanic to compensate for buffs/changes above and move minor mending to Mending passive. Then add, new effect. "Increase potency of heals made inside healing circles by 3/5%."
4. Light Weaver - Remove weird buff to skills. Instead make global heals on your self when cast on low health. "While healing at 50% Health or below, grant minor vitality and 2975 Physical and Spell Resistance for 8 seconds. " Also activating a synergy grants you 7/14 ultimate.
5. Master Ritualist - keep as is. Useless passive justified since buffs to other passives above.

Those are my changes. I think that version of templar has more soul compared to live. Updates useless passives, gives stamplar another morph+some much needed healing back, and updates some abilities that are otherwise useless/underused.

Checkmath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Good Stuff @Cinbri

You are a very brave templar trying to do noCP without major mending when it was replaced by CP blessing and quick recovery stars (along with other stuff Templar needs like block cost reduction).

I never hear such nice words, when I do noCP PvP....

It's ok check, Templar high command rewards you witha gold star!

Minno

StarOfElyon wrote: »

It's hard to really care about the quality of posts concerning the issues that the Templar (especially Magplar) have because I don't have any confidence that anything will change.

I got a non-vamp build for you. You'll need race against time though

Cinbri

Just a couple follow ups:
1. Backlash -
1. If change to make it store damage only of caster will made it it will also need to be removed possibility to recast Backlash to store damage of previously-casted backlash and then remove cap of max released damage.
This cap of previous store is messy and doesn't work properly anyway. Getting rid of it won't change much but will remove second reason why skill have cap damage. This skill cap according to Wrobel was validated to 2 reasons - first is possibility to stack stored damage of previous backlash with next one and prevent too big scaling of released damage; second is that skill store damage from all sources and thus in several people attacks it can achieve too big scaling on released damage too.
But making it store damage only of caster and remove this buggy stacking will remove reason of cap. So only thing that will stop templar from high backlash release damage numbers is his own dps capabilities.
Also Patch 2.3.5 change of reducing amount of stored damage by 66% was validate by increase cap by 25%. Without cap no reason once again to keep low store.

2. Got feeling that if damage taken buffs and skills affect and thus double mitigate released damage that I showed in previous post, then CP could do it too and...

(you can see on picture numbers with default Red CP, than without several points in Elemental Defender; then repeat default tries and then without several points in Ironclad. Same thing goes for Power of the Light being reduced by Hardy)
Red CP system does reduce amount of released damage while Blue CP doesn't affect it.
So, no wonder that even on CP Backlash damage is so bad - released damage will be reduced by Ironclad(as release counts as direct damage) and then by Elem. Defender or Hardy depends on morph(as release counts as magickal/physical damage). So, on CP Backlash is even worse as its damage is double-mitigated not just by damage taken effects but also by Red damage taken Champion Points, making it all together into what, quadruple-mitigation?!
(Some people might be distracted by wrong 2.7.5 patchnotes saying that initial hit not contribute to stored damage. It just mistake coz final patch forgot to mention patch 2.7.2 changes: "The initial damage done by this ability and its morphs now contributes to the copied damage.")

2. Here is effect of Chains of Light I told about that could be made into Unstable Core to be templar unblockable hard cc:
Another variant could be taken of almost same chains but that look bit different from Bloodroot Forge dung.

@ZOS_Gilliam @Joy_Division @Checkmath


P.S.: Incase ZOS dont believe here is small example of words how 6m point-blank aoe can miss high mobile targets, super slow-mo. Showed our positioning from better angle to show 1m difference and ult release at this moment; only 106 ping:

Minno

Gina and team, can you ignore Cinbri and instead open up a spot on the dev team to work on those changes? Lol thanks.

Jabbs_Giggity

Minno wrote: »

Gina and team, can you ignore Cinbri and instead open up a spot on the dev team to work on those changes? Lol thanks.

Not sure of Trolling, or serious...

Minno

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Gina and team, can you ignore Cinbri and instead open up a spot on the dev team to work on those changes? Lol thanks.

Not sure of Trolling, or serious...

Only serious if they give cinbri a job lol

technohic

Minno wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Gina and team, can you ignore Cinbri and instead open up a spot on the dev team to work on those changes? Lol thanks.

Not sure of Trolling, or serious...

Only serious if they give cinbri a job lol

I hoped they offered Cinbri a class rep spot for all the information and testing they provided all the time. But screw that and give them a job.

Checkmath

technohic wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Gina and team, can you ignore Cinbri and instead open up a spot on the dev team to work on those changes? Lol thanks.

Not sure of Trolling, or serious...

Only serious if they give cinbri a job lol

I hoped they offered Cinbri a class rep spot for all the information and testing they provided all the time. But screw that and give them a job.

I think Cinbri didnt want to be rep...maybe I also have the wrong person in mind

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Gina and team, can you ignore Cinbri and instead open up a spot on the dev team to work on those changes? Lol thanks.

Not sure of Trolling, or serious...

Only serious if they give cinbri a job lol

I hoped they offered Cinbri a class rep spot for all the information and testing they provided all the time. But screw that and give them a job.

I think Cinbri didnt want to be rep...maybe I also have the wrong person in mind

Cinbri didn't correct because unpaid lol. But if there wasa job opened .

FrancisCrawford

Some thoughts:

1. Purifying Light is a nice skill for dungeon healers. Please don't mess with it.

2. I find Total Dark pretty useless in PvE, because it doesn't seem to work on cc-immune opponents at all, and on others it's not needed. Maybe VMA is an exception? I haven't tried it there.

3. Repentance is not reliable for group healing. But if it were totally selfish and restored all 3 resources, or even 4 (including ultimate), it could be a nice tool for trash mob tanking, and perhaps for other roles as well.

4. Most classes have a useless damage skill. Javelin is the templar one.

Elsterchen

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Some thoughts:

1. Purifying Light is a nice skill for dungeon healers. Please don't mess with it.

2. I find Total Dark pretty useless in PvE, because it doesn't seem to work on cc-immune opponents at all, and on others it's not needed. Maybe VMA is an exception? I haven't tried it there.

3. Repentance is not reliable for group healing. But if it were totally selfish and restored all 3 resources, or even 4 (including ultimate), it could be a nice tool for trash mob tanking, and perhaps for other roles as well.

4. Most classes have a useless damage skill. Javelin is the templar one.

Well, for what its worth, I think javeline isn't just damage but also a control tool... I find it usefull bc of the knock down (well the stam version ofc). Not saying that its top notch or can#t be better, but I run DW/DW ... and it fits nicely in my toolkit and adds some damage.

Not using any of the other 3 skills ... so idk.

StarOfElyon

Javelin is necessary since Templars have poor mobility and when at least three opponents will focus you to try to hack you to death with their greatswords, you have to be able to relieve some of the pressure to get a good heal off.

soniku4ikblis

Templar is in a disgusting place, PVP wise, today.

I want the Devs to actually sit down and deal with the inconsistencies the players deal with and suffer the huge disappointments.

technohic

^Its interesting the perspective views on this. Most the people I run with in Vivec recently have started favoring their templars more. Used to be majority warden, maybe a templar healer every now and then, but then only me as a tanky-ish damage plar. Now we have at least 1 that runs full time magplar healer, and the rest mostly stamplar.

It's kind of a weird feeling and odd to suddenly feel your POTL is redundant and you miss the major fractures their Wardens used to provide and that it's now after stamplar are arguably on a down tick but its the prevalence of stamina in general, a cleave spammable, and for a group of stambois, theres an efficiency of being able to synergize each others ERs. Really helps in a bleed meta and ridiculous roots and snares.

Ran magplar again for a while but its weird that I want to play it similar to a stamplar but the combat is not as fluid, and rather than a bunch of hots, and small heals, rolling and mobility, its block and largely reliant on the 1 big heal. I often found myself in more of a secondary off healer with what I was doing, and often not as excited about it.

At the same time, there are people that will tell you how hard it is to kill a tanked up templar stacking heals CP, or anyone in their group and without defiles these days having great uptime, they probably have a point.

This is not saying anyone is right or wrong. Its just hard to say the class is in a good or bad spot. Its nuanced. I think that's a good thing

soniku4ikblis

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Javelin is necessary since Templars have poor mobility and when at least three opponents will focus you to try to hack you to death with their greatswords, you have to be able to relieve some of the pressure to get a good heal off.

True. I have tried my Magplar every-which-way and for a Magplar, a hard stun is just required. I'm not talking 1v1 in general, I'm talking over-world PVP in groups.

And the thing that always gets me on my Magplar is burned down through 15k stamina and that well-placed stun when I'm at 35% from fighting 3+ people.

Switched to S&B on BB and I can deal with ranged attacks. But in melee, you are forced to turn into a heal tank and you can last a short time. Even if I pop an invis pot in the thick of 3+, it wears out from someone's wayward attack getting in at the same time.

Magplar just has it pretty hard and it's pretty sad.

soniku4ikblis

technohic wrote: »

^Its interesting the perspective views on this. Most the people I run with in Vivec recently have started favoring their templars more. Used to be majority warden, maybe a templar healer every now and then, but then only me as a tanky-ish damage plar. Now we have at least 1 that runs full time magplar healer, and the rest mostly stamplar.

It's kind of a weird feeling and odd to suddenly feel your POTL is redundant and you miss the major fractures their Wardens used to provide and that it's now after stamplar are arguably on a down tick but its the prevalence of stamina in general, a cleave spammable, and for a group of stambois, theres an efficiency of being able to synergize each others ERs. Really helps in a bleed meta and ridiculous roots and snares.

Ran magplar again for a while but its weird that I want to play it similar to a stamplar but the combat is not as fluid, and rather than a bunch of hots, and small heals, rolling and mobility, its block and largely reliant on the 1 big heal. I often found myself in more of a secondary off healer with what I was doing, and often not as excited about it.

At the same time, there are people that will tell you how hard it is to kill a tanked up templar stacking heals CP, or anyone in their group and without defiles these days having great uptime, they probably have a point.

This is not saying anyone is right or wrong. Its just hard to say the class is in a good or bad spot. Its nuanced. I think that's a good thing

Yup.

Stamplar's are the only ones that seem to really dominate in the field, but I would hardly call it dominating. It's average at best. And they have to run in a pair with something else that is bursty; e.g. usually a NB or a Sorc.

Blegh. Templar is such an amazing and fun class to play in PVE, but our signature move turns us into a heal tank and unless you're tanking full-time, you become a one-trick pony that can easily be bursted down if things are timed right, Total Darkness up or not.

And my fights with DK's are complete draws. I end up getting so bored, I just leave.

Minno

Thing about Templar, it's supposed to be aoe, melee and ranged all in one package.

It might suck in all three, but you can do all three so you are constantly switching around during fights. It's also clunky setting up windows of offense.

If you fix the bugs, update some outdated skill mechanics, and polish up the passives, you'll be left witha very competitive class.

Joy_Division

Checkmath wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Good Stuff @Cinbri

You are a very brave templar trying to do noCP without major mending when it was replaced by CP blessing and quick recovery stars (along with other stuff Templar needs like block cost reduction).

I never hear such nice words, when I do noCP PvP....

Well, you aren't complaining about how no CP changes things

BNOC

I had no idea there was so many issues with POTL! Though, I play no-CP most of the time and it all hit's hella hard there.

Great findings anyway, hope it's sorted!

technohic

soniku4ikblis wrote: »

Does anyone know of any good health regen builds for Magplar that allow it to also do high dps?

The bulk of my troubles stem from DK's and NB's being able to regen back a decent portion of the damage I inflict while they still have a large offense?

Is that the current trend/meta/etc.? To build high regen?

3k SP, 37k Magicka, 28000k resistances, 39%Crit, 30% Crit-damage, and still most of my damage gets mitigated through an oppenent's regen.

I stood and pelted a NB with Vamp Bane-LA and watched his health at 25k. I couldn't get it to go below 23 and they were not blocking and they were not receiving buffs from someone else.

How do I build for that on Magplar? Anyone run something similar on their NB's?

Start here
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/447514/templars-pvp-detailed-guide-suggestions-advice-etc-wrathstone#latest

But I doubt it is recovery as usually Troll King is the biggest source and you're not getting them low enough to proc it. I am assuming you're running heavy armor, nirnhoned, and/or infused weapon damage enchanted weapons based on your stats. Contrary to popular belief; tanking up and stacking stats does not get you kills with just 1 attack and weave unless you're in a zerg . You need penetration and other forms of pressure and I like to always have some sort of defile.

Penetration is greater than damage up until around 10k pen I believe, but if you're a healer, your heals will suffer.

Without defile and just doing a single attack weave, a stam enemy is going to have vigor and FM/Rally ticking and it will make up for that sort of damage.

Koolio

I just want Honor the Dead to work again

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459804/honor-the-dead-is-broken-with-video#latest