[Class Rep] Sorcerer Feedback Thread

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Bound armor

This morph has a new mechanic:

-When you activate the ability 4 hits with sorcerer abilities will proc overload, causing your next direct damage ability to deal an additional physical damage.

-Hitting a target with overload proc will cause major fracture to them for 5 secs

-This duration window will last 12 seconds and can be proc at least three times.

-While slotted max stam is increased by 8%.

Visually your weapons can glow blue with lightning while also making a distinct wind sound to show that it’s proced

Thraben

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The purpose of this thread is to give you a place to post your current top two pain points with the Sorcerer. Our new Class Representatives will be keeping a close eye on this thread, and will utilize it to gather additional feedback for the notes they’re currently compiling for their first meeting with the Dev Team next week. Please be sure and keep your post clear and succinct, and focus more on what is currently frustrating you rather than potential solutions. Thanks!

It has been one year since the reps gave the Devs some pain points of us StamSorcs. And since then we have become useless in PvP and less useful as PvE tank. And while fewer and fewer StamSorcs are left, even I run out of ideas what to do with my own beloved class.

Thus, my only pain point left is following:

1) The lack of communication . Do the Devs know we still exist? Do they care? And if yes, what is their vision for the StamSorc subclass?

Saril_Durzam

PvE wise.

Sorcerer tanks. Not viable. Not any on serious content.

Sorcerer healers. Only for easy content where you can play with no healer at all.

Sorcerer DPS. Magicka Sorceres were doing adequate, although still below DPS charts to Stamina characters. Pet Sorcerers look like the way to go. Serious issues with sustain. They had some survability to compensate the inferior DPS. Not optimal choice for vet trials. Stamina sorcerers, better damage but look too vanila and lacking tools. Other stamina classes are better in any sense.

After next patch, magicka sorcerers will take a huge hit on both survability and damage. Let´s see how this ends, in the paper Sorcerer will do less damage, will have less survability (or some at the expense of even more DPS) and worse sustain. No objetive reasons to get one over a Necro, NB, DK or Templar. Maybe one on a trial for giving Minor Prophecy.

Solutions? AoE dots are nerfed, give better ST target. Bring more sustain. Bring a morph of Dark Conversion that gives no magicka in return but was instant and heals a bit more, and another morph that adds Magicka or Stamina, the highest pool resource, and no health.

Keep Matriarch as it is, with a minimum DPS nerf, and forbid pets in PvP. (with new patch, noone serious would use them in anyways).

CambionDaemon

The problem with the Sorcerer is that it is a magicka class that people are trying to shoehorn stamina abilities/morphs in too, and the bottom line is that it is very restrictive in how they can do it. Stamina classes as a whole shouldn't exist, the game was never designed for that, it was designed for all class skills to be magicka and physical actions/weapon skills to be stamina. It is only with the introduction of the Warden that ZOS have made the effort to try and balance the classes with roughly the same amount of magicka/stamina morphs per skill. In my humble opinion this is a mistake.

Not going to get in to the new patch notes.

RogueShark

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

PvE wise.

Sorcerer healers. Only for easy content where you can play with no healer at all.

Erm... I've gotten IR, Unchained, and cleared things like vCR+3 on my sorc healer.
CURRENTLY, they're not in a bad place.
If healing changes go through though, this won't be far off, unfortunately. We don't have the class utility/heals/etc to make up for these nerfs.

Saril_Durzam

I meant Sorc healers with the new PST changes. No orbs, no springs... both are very used in vet trials. Sorcs lack the tools of other real healing classes like Templars and Wardens.

RogueShark

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

I meant Sorc healers with the new PST changes. No orbs, no springs... both are very used in vet trials. Sorcs lack the tools of other real healing classes like Templars and Wardens.

Then I can agree with you on that. We just flat lack the class skills/heals to compete. Sorc looks like it'll just be flat-out detrimental to come to a trial with PTS changes. They needed to give the off-meta healers the skills to adapt to these changes before making them... but nope.

Saril_Durzam

Theorically, one Sorc in a Trial is needed for getting Minor Prophecy source for the trial, but considering it´s not such an important buff, ... on most optimized setups you won´t see Sorcs.

Saril_Durzam

My own personal feedback.

PvP wise: pet sorcs are a nuisance with superior mobility and pet LOS. They also have a good skill to tag skills even if it´s not the best DPS class. Every time i see a Sorc and a tanky build, i run to kill the Sorc, but i understand many people dislike it.

SOLUTION: easy one - take pets off PvP. Make streak not doing damage.

PvE wise: with healing changes, Sorcerer can just play one role on serious content: DPS. They bring Minor Prophecy to the group, ranged DPS and that´s all. DPS was fine before patch - but still below Stamina builds - and utility was good due Matriarch heals; sustain aparty from pet HA builds was a serious issue. After patch, Sorcerer wont be played on serious content.

SOLUTION: drop Matriach DPS by 20%, buff Tormentor DPS by 40%.SELFHEALING: Make Vigor scale with maximum resource or Make Dark Exchange instant skill. SUSTAIN: Give DPS Sorc skills either cheaper, or Make Dark Exchange instant skill . DPS: Bring better magicka sets, in par with stamina ones.

jcm2606

CambionDaemon wrote: »

The problem with the Sorcerer is that it is a magicka class that people are trying to shoehorn stamina abilities/morphs in too, and the bottom line is that it is very restrictive in how they can do it. Stamina classes as a whole shouldn't exist, the game was never designed for that, it was designed for all class skills to be magicka and physical actions/weapon skills to be stamina. It is only with the introduction of the Warden that ZOS have made the effort to try and balance the classes with roughly the same amount of magicka/stamina morphs per skill. In my humble opinion this is a mistake.

Not going to get in to the new patch notes.

There's nothing special about Sorcerer that makes it only truly viable for magicka. Every class started out that way, every class starts out with all of your class skills being intended for magicka, and a few morph over to stamina. The difference between Sorc and other classes (excluding DK, since DK is in the same spot as Sorc), is Sorc lacks morph options for a stamina variant, and that can be easily rectified.

Replace Crystal Blast with a stamina spammable, such as Crystal Slam or whatever. Just give stam sorc an identity through a unique spammable, and Crystal Blast is the perfect skill to sacrifice for one, as nobody seriously uses it.

Rework the Charged Atronach morph of the atronach morph to have the AOE damage be a ground DOT essentially, and change both the AOE behaviour and the damage type based on the highest stat. The atronach could summon a storm around itself, and on magicka builds zap all nearby enemies every 2 seconds or whatever with shock damage, while on stamina builds it could basically have its own Hurricane around itself, dealing physical damage every 2 seconds. In general, allow the atronach ultimate to also be used with stamina, without needing players to build into spell pen since it's still shock damage.

Rework at least the Daedric Protection passive to not require a Daedric Summoning skill slotted, so that way stam sorc can at least get the extra 10% stamina recovery, since it doesn't take advantage of 4, maybe 5 passives in the Sorcerer kit.

All in all, this "stop shoehorning stamina skills/morphs into magicka classes" argument is bullsh*t, because none of the base game classes started out as stamina, and look at how well Nightblade and Templar lend themselves to the stamina playstyle. Both have their own stamina playstyles etched into the predominately magicka kit, and do so pretty damn well.

(Nightblade isn't very polarising towards magicka to begin with, and Templar has more than a few skills aimed at stamina, alongside a hefty amount of utility.)

Hell, even DK, which largely has the same problem as Sorc, isn't that bad because the DK kit primarily offers a ton of utility skills, not just skills squarely aimed at magicka. You look at Sorc, though, and 2 entire skill lines have only 1 or 2 skills that are somewhat useful to stamina -- Dark Magic has Dark Exchange and (for group play) Negate, Daedric Summoning has Bound Armor and (if you absolutely don't want to use bow for Ballista) the storm atronach.

Compare that to DK, where you only have 1 skill line like that, which is Earthen Heart, which offers Petrify, Obsidian Shield, and Corrosive Armor. Corrosive, it's a matter of whether you want to build around that 100% pen, Petrify & Obsidian Shield, it's a matter of if you have enough bar space. All of these skills offer something, while the 2 Sorc lines only have one skill that truly offers something in all situations, 1 that offers something in a specific situation, and 1 that's just an inferior version of an ultimate you'll likely already have access to.

Saril_Durzam

We can simply doing it easier: delete all Magicka morphs. Who wants magicka nowadays? DD Stamina is much better and have better gear, leave magicka for healers and tank/DD support.

bol

Speaking from PVE perspective.

Is is not just the stam sorc. Even the mag sorc completely lacks identity. The only thing that differentiates it from other classes is the lack of buffs and debuffs. After the latest PTS changes the magsorc is dropping pets as generic skills from guild/weapon lines are way superior. And without having anything to bring from its class, its damage is just way the lowest of all classes it seems. Not really sure why it was needed to nerf the class into the ground as it was far from being best dps class even now. If they don't make some changes to bring the damage on par with other classes there will be simply be no reason to play it anymore.

Speaking from PVP perspective.

The magsorc might have been overperforming against bad players. It is the ultimate noob killer in cyro. The execute allows it to steal kills in bgs and improve the score of their team. And it seems they have decided to give it a slight boost in the PvP with the non-counterable stun and improved mobility.

So it looks sorc is becoming a PvP-only class now.

CambionDaemon

jcm2606 wrote: »

CambionDaemon wrote: »

The problem with the Sorcerer is that it is a magicka class that people are trying to shoehorn stamina abilities/morphs in too, and the bottom line is that it is very restrictive in how they can do it. Stamina classes as a whole shouldn't exist, the game was never designed for that, it was designed for all class skills to be magicka and physical actions/weapon skills to be stamina. It is only with the introduction of the Warden that ZOS have made the effort to try and balance the classes with roughly the same amount of magicka/stamina morphs per skill. In my humble opinion this is a mistake.

Not going to get in to the new patch notes.

There's nothing special about Sorcerer that makes it only truly viable for magicka. Every class started out that way, every class starts out with all of your class skills being intended for magicka, and a few morph over to stamina. The difference between Sorc and other classes (excluding DK, since DK is in the same spot as Sorc), is Sorc lacks morph options for a stamina variant, and that can be easily rectified.

Replace Crystal Blast with a stamina spammable, such as Crystal Slam or whatever. Just give stam sorc an identity through a unique spammable, and Crystal Blast is the perfect skill to sacrifice for one, as nobody seriously uses it.

Rework the Charged Atronach morph of the atronach morph to have the AOE damage be a ground DOT essentially, and change both the AOE behaviour and the damage type based on the highest stat. The atronach could summon a storm around itself, and on magicka builds zap all nearby enemies every 2 seconds or whatever with shock damage, while on stamina builds it could basically have its own Hurricane around itself, dealing physical damage every 2 seconds. In general, allow the atronach ultimate to also be used with stamina, without needing players to build into spell pen since it's still shock damage.

Rework at least the Daedric Protection passive to not require a Daedric Summoning skill slotted, so that way stam sorc can at least get the extra 10% stamina recovery, since it doesn't take advantage of 4, maybe 5 passives in the Sorcerer kit.

All in all, this "stop shoehorning stamina skills/morphs into magicka classes" argument is bullsh*t, because none of the base game classes started out as stamina, and look at how well Nightblade and Templar lend themselves to the stamina playstyle. Both have their own stamina playstyles etched into the predominately magicka kit, and do so pretty damn well.

(Nightblade isn't very polarising towards magicka to begin with, and Templar has more than a few skills aimed at stamina, alongside a hefty amount of utility.)

Hell, even DK, which largely has the same problem as Sorc, isn't that bad because the DK kit primarily offers a ton of utility skills, not just skills squarely aimed at magicka. You look at Sorc, though, and 2 entire skill lines have only 1 or 2 skills that are somewhat useful to stamina -- Dark Magic has Dark Exchange and (for group play) Negate, Daedric Summoning has Bound Armor and (if you absolutely don't want to use bow for Ballista) the storm atronach.

Compare that to DK, where you only have 1 skill line like that, which is Earthen Heart, which offers Petrify, Obsidian Shield, and Corrosive Armor. Corrosive, it's a matter of whether you want to build around that 100% pen, Petrify & Obsidian Shield, it's a matter of if you have enough bar space. All of these skills offer something, while the 2 Sorc lines only have one skill that truly offers something in all situations, 1 that offers something in a specific situation, and 1 that's just an inferior version of an ultimate you'll likely already have access to.

Sorcery is MAGIC, and no class was stamina based to begin with, it was only with a few exceptions and then streamers on youtube that the Stamina as a class began to gain traction. Nightblades are thieves that use magicka for stealth (because they are clumsy), Templars use divine magic. People are always going to disagree with how the game is going and what I stated is my opinion, you may disagree with it.

And while I would like StamSorc to actually have a better identity (I was probably one of the first StamSorc's on PS4EU at launch), the entire Sorcerer kit needs a complete rework first.

And shoehorning stamina skills in to the classes is not an argument, it is a fact. If they actually reworked the original four classes in the same way that the new two are made then maybe you would actually have some sort of balance across the classes (and people would stop crying about a particular class that killed them).

DemonicLawyer

They want to nerf sorcerers because pets are annoying in PvP. It's always because of PvP.
Sorcerers already had bad sustain, their survivability was not the best (after shield nerfs), the execute skill was weak. And, for some fights, like portals in vCR, we had to use Matriarch for healing, for the cost of 2 skill slots, because power surge was not enough. Templars can spam breath of life and put in 1 skill slot, have more resistance with rune skill, ress faster, have a low-cost ultimate (fits with master architect), and the execute is strong. So what was the reason to use a sorc?
On the new PTS patch, I noticed a difference of almost 10k dps with my sorc. This is a very bad change. And since all the magicka dps will be weaker on the next patch, it will probably ruin many progression groups and non-experienced players. Imagine farming the base game trials with 10k less dps from every player. vHRC pug runs will be a dream. Maybe Pro teams won't be affected too much, because they were already doing insane numbers. But still many fights are designed for "dps races", unfortunately.
I see no reason to nerf, since pets were buffed in Wrathstone update. Its inconsisent. Maybe change something from Heavy Attack rotation builds, because it was indeed too easy, but the Ele Weapon rotation was not OP.
My suggestion is keep the things how they are now, but lower the pets damage specifically for PvP and other skills from different classes that are considered toxic. Change the skills damage when you enter BGs, Cyro or IC. I never understood why PvP has to affect PvE. Don't ruin the PvE community.

Saril_Durzam

Doubt it will affect anything in progression, at least the 10k magsorcs nerfs. Sure, pugs wont have it easier, but there will be enough issues with healing, and futhermore people will carry their Stamina toons so trials will keep going. Futhermore, many trials are more about knowledge than DPS... except that DPS lets groups jump mechanics. Well, as i said, everything will work out even if we have to play other classes in certain contents.

Saril_Durzam

Magsorcs need an urgent revision. Class have changed DPS style, from AOE to ST, having a significant decrease in damage, only mitigated by the new ST DOTs.

Still, the class lacks in DPS comparing with most stam builds and some mag ones.

The worst issue is not dps. Sustain is bad, and now selfhealing and survability has been also nerfed to a point that there are some classes that are simply better than magsorcs on EVERYTHING. Deal more DPS, have better DPS, better healing, more survability and better sustain. And in range aswell.

Solutions? Not easy solutions as i feel the class itself needs a total revamp. Petsorcs were performing well but last nerfes will make dissapear. Easy solution would be leave pets as they are. Magsorcs will switch AOE for ST skills and will keep sustain and survability to a point.

ANother solution would be make Dark Exchange instant. It would be a fair heal (not much, around 8k heal, which is tiny compared with Vigor´s 20k), wouldn´t interrupt damage too much as it would "steal" only one GCD, and would bring some needed sustain. It wouldn´t solution all class problems but it would be a good start.

Perashim

My two new pain points:

1: Petsorcs, or any sorc build that used a pet, have been gutted. Base damage of Scamps have been dropped in favor of its damage being solely from it's activated ability. The flappy lizards are literal garbage now. Nerfs were needed, but these were too much. The base skill and Matriarch can't do damage/heal for SNIP anymore, and Tormentor now has been nerfed to hell as well, despite being an extremely weak morph before the nerfs and should have been left alone completely.
They literally couldn't be bothered to rework Summon Winged Twilight into something more balanced, but instead just chucked a sledgehammer nerf with no compensation.
2: Since apparently some people have a serious hate SNIP for PetSorcs (or just Sorcs in general), just have pets unsummon when entering crafting areas unless in combat.

Ozazz

so is this the 3rd or 4th shield nerf to date? I loose track these days as every other ability on sorc gets nerfed too LMFAOOOOOOOOO

Delparis

Bring back my shields i don't want them nerfed.

Transairion

So Twilight Matriarch's tooltip on PTS (64 points in Mag, no gear no CP nothing else) is ~200 or so lower than Summon Shade (unmorphed) now...

Summon freaking Shade, the one barred utility pet that's main downside was terrible damage.

ZOS you cannot balance each patch in a vacuum, ignoring what the other classes have and what you've buffed/nerfed previously! Why buff something with few weaknesses and nerf something with tons of weaknesses? Do you hate the original Daedric Summoning design that badly??

Illuvatarr

Sorc survivability and ability to keep range is destroyed now. It is literally non existent. That isn’t hyperbole. It’s reality. Go try it out on test. Shields are meaningless garbage and basically not worth even casting as they cost more than heals. They achieved their goal of ruining the class. The new development lead sucks and so does their disdain of actually making the game fun. They have added everything possible to make playing a ranged caster frustrating to play. They are so fixated on ensuring that stamina toons have every advantage and frankly not going to play another year until they fire this guy and redo all of the balancing again once they figure out how silly these balancing changes are.

Perashim

Transairion wrote: »

So Twilight Matriarch's tooltip on PTS (64 points in Mag, no gear no CP nothing else) is ~200 or so lower than Summon Shade (unmorphed) now...

Summon freaking Shade, the one barred utility pet that's main downside was terrible damage.

ZOS you cannot balance each patch in a vacuum, ignoring what the other classes have and what you've buffed/nerfed previously! Why buff something with few weaknesses and nerf something with tons of weaknesses? Do you hate the original Daedric Summoning design that badly??

Wow..... That is just sad....

Just further solidified how useless the flappy lizards are now when SUMMON SHADE hits harder than they do.

Bobby_V_Rockit

Every other pet has a timer, make sorcs the same. Revert the damage nerfs but make them a 30 second tier

Idinuse

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Every other pet has a timer, make sorcs the same. Revert the damage nerfs but make them a 30 second tier

Sure if the skills then only take one slot like every other pet...

Saril_Durzam

I propose here a change on pets which could work. Already posted it as a thread but i think this is the place.

SORCERER PETS

Some people have complained about the Matriarch overperforming and the dev team has decided to nerf it, to an extreme by the likes of many Sorc players. I feel it´s a heavy nerf specially on a class with serious selfheal issues after this patch (shields nerf, matriarch nerf).

The issue was that Matriarch put: 1) fire and forget fine DPS, 2)Heals, 3)group utility in form of group heals and 4)LoS defence in Pvp.

I propose a new Twilight change to balance this between what´s in Life and in PST. Again, it´s not taken the skill in a vacuum but considering the state of the magsorc class which will be heavily hurted by this patch as it is. We have to consider that sorcs already have a DPS pet, and like or not, sorc is a pet class, with an entire skill line devoted to pets. Take them out means to disminish the class effectivity and diversity, as class identity aswell.

1. Pets will be unsummoned in cities.
2. Twilight pets wont be able to be used in Pvp areas.I consider volatile is small and doesn´t bring the Twilight issue, at least like the Warden pet.
3. The Twilight will receive two Morphs: Matriarch for group utility and sorc healers and Tormentor for sorc DDs.

Matriarch. Stays as in the PST. Needed for Sorc healers (even more after the healing nerfs). Few DPS and group heals.
Tormentor. Keeps the zap damage of the Live Twilight pet, and the skill is replaced by a heal that only heals the caster. It can be a burst heal, or a hot.

Both pets keep two bars slots.

This way the Sorc keeps some selfheal, the pet identity, some acceptable DPS, while being in DD setup. The only heal means the Twlight in DD form loses group identity and more important, cant heal itself so sorcerer players will have to take that in count, their pets can and will die so they will have from time to time to recast them.

It considers everything that has been blamed to pets (Pvp los, cities spam, overperforming) while keeping the Sorc class working and giving really needed performance.

Saril_Durzam

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Every other pet has a timer, make sorcs the same. Revert the damage nerfs but make them a 30 second tier

Could work. Make them instant and just one slot, and i´d but it.

CambionDaemon

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Every other pet has a timer, make sorcs the same. Revert the damage nerfs but make them a 30 second tier

Could work. Make them instant and just one slot, and i´d but it.

Which every Sorcerer has been saying for the last 3 years.

CambionDaemon

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

I propose here a change on pets which could work. Already posted it as a thread but i think this is the place.

SORCERER PETS

Some people have complained about the Matriarch overperforming and the dev team has decided to nerf it, to an extreme by the likes of many Sorc players. I feel it´s a heavy nerf specially on a class with serious selfheal issues after this patch (shields nerf, matriarch nerf).

The issue was that Matriarch put: 1) fire and forget fine DPS, 2)Heals, 3)group utility in form of group heals and 4)LoS defence in Pvp.

I propose a new Twilight change to balance this between what´s in Life and in PST. Again, it´s not taken the skill in a vacuum but considering the state of the magsorc class which will be heavily hurted by this patch as it is. We have to consider that sorcs already have a DPS pet, and like or not, sorc is a pet class, with an entire skill line devoted to pets. Take them out means to disminish the class effectivity and diversity, as class identity aswell.

1. Pets will be unsummoned in cities.
2. Twilight pets wont be able to be used in Pvp areas.I consider volatile is small and doesn´t bring the Twilight issue, at least like the Warden pet.
3. The Twilight will receive two Morphs: Matriarch for group utility and sorc healers and Tormentor for sorc DDs.

Matriarch. Stays as in the PST. Needed for Sorc healers (even more after the healing nerfs). Few DPS and group heals.
Tormentor. Keeps the zap damage of the Live Twilight pet, and the skill is replaced by a heal that only heals the caster. It can be a burst heal, or a hot.

Both pets keep two bars slots.

This way the Sorc keeps some selfheal, the pet identity, some acceptable DPS, while being in DD setup. The only heal means the Twlight in DD form loses group identity and more important, cant heal itself so sorcerer players will have to take that in count, their pets can and will die so they will have from time to time to recast them.

It considers everything that has been blamed to pets (Pvp los, cities spam, overperforming) while keeping the Sorc class working and giving really needed performance.

So once again the Sorcerer is the only class that gets penalised for using a class skill (streak bing the other one). No, make Daedric Summoning a world skill line and give Sorcerer's a proper battle magic/conjuration line (with buff/heal's/magical melee weapon etc).

Aurie

Hmm I don’t agree with having Sorc pets on a timer, especially as they are a main self-heal. What will happen is that if you don’t constantly monitor your pet’s timer and keep it up 100% of the time, when you urgently need a heal, the pet will have timed itself out.....which means re-summoning the pet before you can activate the heal, by which time you are probably dead. And if said pet needs to be kept up 100% then what is the use of a timer?

Edit: and that would constitute yet another nerf to the class. Don’t do it !

Maulkin

I don't know guys, for me the solution to the twilight is fairly simple. If it takes two slots it should have two functions, otherwise its useless. But it should be single purpose per morph, no mixing between dmg and heals.

Matriach should be a HoT and a burst heal. You summon the pet, it starts a Hot that ends when it dies. You activate its special ability and it costs extra but has burst heal.

Tormentor should be a DoT and a spammable. You summon the Tormentor it damages the enemy. You activate the special ability and it does spammable-level dmg to the selected target. that way magSorc gets a class spammable.

The spammable, and burst heal tooltips costs should be comparable to other abilities. The HoT and DoT tooltips the same. The summoning should have no upfront cost, but it should reduce your mag regen by a fix amount which is the cost of upkeep of the pet. If for example it reduced your mag regen by 125 per sec, then it has a 2500 mag cost over 20" which makes it comparable to other HoTs/DoTs. If it dies it stops costing you until you respawn it.