[Class Rep] Sorcerer Feedback Thread

Apherius

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Sorcerers:

• Sorcs want frag to stun. What about a new Crystal Blast proc which ccs but doesn’t deal bonus damage? Could reduce the damage of the base ability and increase the damage of Crystal Frag’s proc to avoid the “high damage ability having a stun” issue
  [...]
• One example was Crystal Frags need to be brought up to level of Assassin’s Will

- Crystal Shard

- Idea #1 Nobody hard cast frag in pve, same thing in PVP ( except overload sorcerer, and this is the only case):
Crystal frag should work differently depending on how we use it ( see below )
reducing the cast time would be a good start. We want it to be an unique ability since it's our main skill !

A few example below for Crystal Frag :

• " If you damage an enemy with a frag proc THEN hard cast a frag .. this will grab the enemy "
  While crystal blast could Aoe grab up to X enemies in the same situation or drain up to X magicka of the target.
  
• " If you hard cast a frag THEN use a frag proc on the same enemy, it will increase Blood magic passive effectiveness" it mean the passive will heals you for 30% of your max health instead of 12% - I really like this idea, you engage the fight by hard-casting a frag ... Then you choose if you want to deal increased damage( = use the proc ) or keep it for later under 30/40% of your max health.
  Crystal Blast Could increase ( and proc ) the Persistence passive effectiveness and reduce the cost of your next skill by 30%.
  
• "[...] The next crystal fragment will be instant, deal 10% more damage, cost 50% less magicka and off balance the target.
  While crystal blast would Stun the target.
  
• "[...] If you don't use the proc, fragments will turn arround you during 3 sec and absorb 1 projectile.
  While crystal blast could deal aoe damage arround you during 4 sec if you don't use the proc
  
• The longer you keep the frag proc ( up to 8 sec, otherwise you will lose the proc) the faster it will go when you will use the proc.
  While crystal blast could be unavoidable if you keep the proc during [6sec ; 8sec[

- Idea #2 Make both morph interesting ! one should stun and the other should give utility and increased damage, maybe mix both idea?

• Crystal fragment should get the 10% increased damage back ( 10% currently, it was 20% before), also off-balance the target or deal increased damage if you are melee.
  
• Crystal Blast should also be able to proc, cost 50% less and stun the target.

one should stun, the other should give utility and increased damage. This would make both choice interesting in PVP since we would need to choose between crystal frag/clench(CC) combo and Crystal Blast(CC)/force pulse combo.

Why I think 10% increased damage on crystal frag are not enough ?
Keep in mind clench is reflectable and deal less damage than force pulse ( and more telegraphed), 10% increased damage on crystal frag would not be enough to make the crystal frag/clench combo interesting in PVP instead of crystal blast/Force pulse if you see what i mean ?

Off Balance would help with sustain ( this is what i mean by " utility" ).


- Power Overload

• Change it, so you could still do your rotation and swap bar, and each light attack with a weapon would deal additional damage until you run out or toggle off the ultimate. make the ultimate deplete 30/35 ultimates every 2 sec, it would reward skilful gameplay.
  Charge your fists weapons with the power of the storm, Light attacks become Lightning bolts dealing X additional damage, and your heavy attacks blast enemies in target area near the target for X additional damage. Both attacks restores 300 magicka ( this would help with sustain a bit ), after X Light/heavy attack the power of the storm will become uncontrollable, you will need to toggle the ultimate off during X sec or it will restore slightly more magicka at the expense of your movement speed ( slow you down up to 80% of your base speed ) You lose 30/35 ultimates until you run out or the ability is toggled off. you can not gain ultimate while using this ultimate.
  
  I want it to be an ultimate you need to manage, something that reward skilful gameplay but also allow the player to do more damage at the expense of his movement speed.
  
• And keep the Energy Overload morph as it is, for those who want to play with a third bar and/or gank players, this would make both choise interresting.

- Lightning Flood

• Make it 8 sec like the base skill, reduce the damage, and make the dot follow the target.( Remove the aoe damage too ), This would be purgeable of course. ( If I look at my PVP bar, i would need to drop a shield or play without a hot in order to use this skill .)

- Encase

- Idea #1 make it a Dot.

• Restraining Prison: Call daedric shard from the earth under one enemy, they follow the target and deal X damage ( less than liquid ofc ) over 8/12 seconds.

- Idea #2 Make it an unique skill.

• Restraining Prison: You can apply this dot to 2 target at the same times, if you use your instant crystal ( crystal proc) it will create 2 crystal ( one in each hand ) and bombard both enemy at the same times.

WreckfulAbandon

Regarding Rune Cage:

I'm fine with range being toned down. Gap closer range or even shorter is fine with me. Damage nerf is fine, removal is even ok if crystal frags gets some nerfed damage restored. But it needs to remain undodgeable + unblockable.

Sorc is the burst class. They are literally shoe-horned into it. And they are very telegraphed and predictable. They need a stun like Fear. Even if it's Streak. If Streak stun were undodgeable and unblockable I could easily settle for that. But some builds were virtually immune to sorc combos for a long time and that's not what we should go back to. It just annoys me that sorc is having their day in the sun with Summerset but a lot of people are determined to put them back in the bin.

Easiest class to smash potatoes =/= OP

cpuScientist

I've seen alot of quick fixes to tide people over.

Right now the glaring issue in PvP is sloads and cage, both have been looked at and that is great.

In PvE however the glaring issue is complete and total Nightblade DPS dominance. They have the best sustain, the highest damage, and the best self heals. Access to beserk meaning they barely need healers. They are simultaneously the safest class with their self heals, the strongest class with DPS, and easiest to sustain on. Now the rotation to get the maximum amount of DPS is somewhat difficult. But a static rotation is about 2k less and completely trashes other classes difficult rotations, so honestly magBlade is very easy to DPS on and very easy to survive on and sustain on.

I do not want to see nighrBlades get nerfed. But sorcs DK Warden and Templar be brought up to par.

This has been started with Templar and gee whiz that's great, they can be an alternative to stamBlades. Not as good but in the park perhaps, after the testing is done.

The biggest issue right now with sorc DPS however is not getting touched. Sustain sustain SUSTAIN. A Sorc cannot do a 3 million without near drying up. Or actually drying up. Forget a 6 million. A Sorc has no real good damage ulti outside atro, which is really not liked in many trials and just any mobile fight in general. Because it us stationary stunnable gets in the way of tanks.

Pet Sorcs are dead, and even when they were sub meta they were dead. Just no way to use them in so many fights that it became a meh, look at my parse more than a practical use. Further they were boring.

Lightning damage is back to being useless vs fire.

Many things make the Sorc just very bad in PvE. At the very least can we get a touch of sustain. Perhaps when a Sorc concusses enimies it gets back X Magicka. Or something that won't transfer over well to PvP.

And please free us from bound armor. It's active skill is tank based. But it is stuck on dps bars. Get it off of our bars or makw it's active skill useful in pve. I vote for just making the 8% broken out and put in some passive. Like Nightblade TBH. For Pete's sake we don't have room for our execute.

DO SOMETHING SMALL NOW SO THAT WHEN YOU DO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ITS NOT DRASTIC. TEST FROM NOW WITH SUSTAIN AND SMALL PERCENTAGE CHANGES SO LATER ITS NOT JUST THROW EVERYTHING AND SEE WHAT WORKS. THANK YOU!!!

BuddyAces

Me thinks that most of you PvP folks expect to do nothing by 1vX your entire

cpuScientist wrote: »

I've seen alot of quick fixes to tide people over.

Right now the glaring issue in PvP is sloads and cage, both have been looked at and that is great.

In PvE however the glaring issue is complete and total Nightblade DPS dominance. They have the best sustain, the highest damage, and the best self heals. Access to beserk meaning they barely need healers. They are simultaneously the safest class with their self heals, the strongest class with DPS, and easiest to sustain on. Now the rotation to get the maximum amount of DPS is somewhat difficult. But a static rotation is about 2k less and completely trashes other classes difficult rotations, so honestly magBlade is very easy to DPS on and very easy to survive on and sustain on.

I do not want to see nighrBlades get nerfed. But sorcs DK Warden and Templar be brought up to par.

This has been started with Templar and gee whiz that's great, they can be an alternative to stamBlades. Not as good but in the park perhaps, after the testing is done.

The biggest issue right now with sorc DPS however is not getting touched. Sustain sustain SUSTAIN. A Sorc cannot do a 3 million without near drying up. Or actually drying up. Forget a 6 million. A Sorc has no real good damage ulti outside atro, which is really not liked in many trials and just any mobile fight in general. Because it us stationary stunnable gets in the way of tanks.

Pet Sorcs are dead, and even when they were sub meta they were dead. Just no way to use them in so many fights that it became a meh, look at my parse more than a practical use. Further they were boring.

Lightning damage is back to being useless vs fire.

Many things make the Sorc just very bad in PvE. At the very least can we get a touch of sustain. Perhaps when a Sorc concusses enimies it gets back X Magicka. Or something that won't transfer over well to PvP.

And please free us from bound armor. It's active skill is tank based. But it is stuck on dps bars. Get it off of our bars or makw it's active skill useful in pve. I vote for just making the 8% broken out and put in some passive. Like Nightblade TBH. For Pete's sake we don't have room for our execute.

DO SOMETHING SMALL NOW SO THAT WHEN YOU DO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ITS NOT DRASTIC. TEST FROM NOW WITH SUSTAIN AND SMALL PERCENTAGE CHANGES SO LATER ITS NOT JUST THROW EVERYTHING AND SEE WHAT WORKS. THANK YOU!!!

I would say our biggest issue is sustain. Start there. Outside of the newer trials which heavily favor ranged for whatever reason, our dps is great. Anything other than a trial where we can constantly get shards/orbs we go through stamina like an old junkie who hasn't had a fix in a week.

Our passives need to benefit both mag and stam. The ones that currently benefit stam are GREAT. Don't touch them. I like them. Change the others to be more beneficial please.

Vahrokh

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

BuddyAces

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

cpuScientist

BuddyAces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

Yeah that constant yo-yo of hey Stam is good. Nahhhhhh psyche it's bad. JK it's good. NOPE HAHA you suck again. Nah but seriously it's good. NOOOOOOPE it sucks.

Relying on sets sooo hard to do all it's damage. From VMA daggers the maelsteom bow staple, relyquen all the penetration sets necessary. It is fake it is just so BAAAD.

IMO stamMelee should be highest dps follwed by magMelee then mag ranged. But keep them close enough for an all ranged to be fine and dandy the safest route. But fastedt clears possible be with melee. Because no matter what always need range. Melee can almost only ever be so many slots. Then rank the interDPS like the melee by easiest to sustain and survive on have slightly worst to hardest rotation and difficulty sustain has slightly better.

But this is SORC THREAD SO SORRY.

BUFF SORC SUSTAIN. DELETE RUNE CAGE.

ChiknAriseMcFro

All of you complaining that sorcs need this or that are doing it wrong. Pay attention in BGs. Sorcs have the highest kills and lowest deaths. From my perspective the class needs balanced out. Being able to pin someone down and blow them up before said person can pull both triggers is ludacris and broken. But yeah, lets buff the class because it clearly needs it.

Gallagher563

cpuScientist wrote: »

I've seen alot of quick fixes to tide people over.

Right now the glaring issue in PvP is sloads and cage, both have been looked at and that is great.

In PvE however the glaring issue is complete and total Nightblade DPS dominance. They have the best sustain, the highest damage, and the best self heals. Access to beserk meaning they barely need healers. They are simultaneously the safest class with their self heals, the strongest class with DPS, and easiest to sustain on. Now the rotation to get the maximum amount of DPS is somewhat difficult. But a static rotation is about 2k less and completely trashes other classes difficult rotations, so honestly magBlade is very easy to DPS on and very easy to survive on and sustain on.

I do not want to see nighrBlades get nerfed. But sorcs DK Warden and Templar be brought up to par.

This has been started with Templar and gee whiz that's great, they can be an alternative to stamBlades. Not as good but in the park perhaps, after the testing is done.

The biggest issue right now with sorc DPS however is not getting touched. Sustain sustain SUSTAIN. A Sorc cannot do a 3 million without near drying up. Or actually drying up. Forget a 6 million. A Sorc has no real good damage ulti outside atro, which is really not liked in many trials and just any mobile fight in general. Because it us stationary stunnable gets in the way of tanks.

Pet Sorcs are dead, and even when they were sub meta they were dead. Just no way to use them in so many fights that it became a meh, look at my parse more than a practical use. Further they were boring.

Lightning damage is back to being useless vs fire.

Many things make the Sorc just very bad in PvE. At the very least can we get a touch of sustain. Perhaps when a Sorc concusses enimies it gets back X Magicka. Or something that won't transfer over well to PvP.

And please free us from bound armor. It's active skill is tank based. But it is stuck on dps bars. Get it off of our bars or makw it's active skill useful in pve. I vote for just making the 8% broken out and put in some passive. Like Nightblade TBH. For Pete's sake we don't have room for our execute.

DO SOMETHING SMALL NOW SO THAT WHEN YOU DO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ITS NOT DRASTIC. TEST FROM NOW WITH SUSTAIN AND SMALL PERCENTAGE CHANGES SO LATER ITS NOT JUST THROW EVERYTHING AND SEE WHAT WORKS. THANK YOU!!!

I agree with a lot of your points

ChiknAriseMcFro wrote: »

All of you complaining that sorcs need this or that are doing it wrong. Pay attention in BGs. Sorcs have the highest kills and lowest deaths. From my perspective the class needs balanced out. Being able to pin someone down and blow them up before said person can pull both triggers is ludacris and broken. But yeah, lets buff the class because it clearly needs it.

I am assuming this refers to the fact magsorcs can massively kill steal with their execute.

Illuvatarr

Played a Mag sorc four years ago. Literally just got back into this game.

The class has an overpowered ability in rune cage. Its stupid. Its unfair. This does not compensate for its severe shortcomings relative to stamina builds. It is a horrible bandaid attempt at making the class viable in open field pvp without addressing the core superiority of stamina over magicka. This is the only game I know where a dps statistic also functions as the primary survival statistic. Surely, the developers must have noted this and how it would imbalance the game after giving more upfront burst damage to the survival statistic over the dps statistic. To compound matters, medium armor delivers higher survivability than light.

The rest of the sorcerer class doesn't stack up in pvp. No survivability, delayed burst and inability to sustain versus stamina builds.

That being said, it shines in zerg battles when no one is paying attention to you (melt people from far away when they arent paying attention) and it performs well on keep battles where melee classes cannot get to you. (the inability of the class to build distance even with speed potions is comical).

The irony is that it used to be the other way around. I am building a stamina set now for my sorcerer as the game mechanics have changed . The performance and ease of killing people with a stamina build (I am in full yellow cp 160 gear and I regularly get killed by nightblades/bow users from stealth before I can even react) is comical.

I am not sure what the developers of this game are thinking other than wanting magicka to be a support stat for stamina builds (or they don't know how to balance the two stats as stamina has an inherent advantage (as stated earlier) as it is attached to higher protective gear and cross functions as the primary dodge/block stat so you just need to stack it on your stamina build). Game is completely different than it used to be.

Apherius

ChiknAriseMcFro wrote: »

All of you complaining that sorcs need this or that are doing it wrong. Pay attention in BGs. Sorcs have the highest kills and lowest deaths. From my perspective the class needs balanced out. Being able to pin someone down and blow them up before said person can pull both triggers is ludacris and broken. But yeah, lets buff the class because it clearly needs it.

It's not the first time i read that, it refers to the fact that magsorc can steal kill with fury, 48 meters from the targets.

It's an issue with the BG scoring system.

Nicko_Lps

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Played a Mag sorc four years ago. Literally just got back into this game.

The class has an overpowered ability in rune cage. Its stupid. Its unfair. This does not compensate for its severe shortcomings relative to stamina builds. It is a horrible bandaid attempt at making the class viable in open field pvp without addressing the core superiority of stamina over magicka. This is the only game I know where a dps statistic also functions as the primary survival statistic. Surely, the developers must have noted this and how it would imbalance the game after giving more upfront burst damage to the survival statistic over the dps statistic. To compound matters, medium armor delivers higher survivability than light.

The rest of the sorcerer class doesn't stack up in pvp. No survivability, delayed burst and inability to sustain versus stamina builds.

That being said, it shines in zerg battles when no one is paying attention to you (melt people from far away when they arent paying attention) and it performs well on keep battles where melee classes cannot get to you. (the inability of the class to build distance even with speed potions is comical).

The irony is that it used to be the other way around. I am building a stamina set now for my sorcerer as the game mechanics have changed . The performance and ease of killing people with a stamina build (I am in full yellow cp 160 gear and I regularly get killed by nightblades/bow users from stealth before I can even react) is comical.

I am not sure what the developers of this game are thinking other than wanting magicka to be a support stat for stamina builds (or they don't know how to balance the two stats as stamina has an inherent advantage (as stated earlier) as it is attached to higher protective gear and cross functions as the primary dodge/block stat so you just need to stack it on your stamina build). Game is completely different than it used to be.

Personally i dont use rune cage, i consider it group play. I cant use runecage alone while 5+ zerglings chase me all the time.

Fear has a ranged morph, fossilize dont need to be ranged since DK's are melee class..
But why exactly runecage is OP and fear-fossilize is not op?
You do know that the most OP unblockable/undodgeable stun is fossilizer right?

When nightblades 1shot with 2 keys, its fine.
If sorcs have a 1shot combo with 5 keys, its not fine.

Nicko_Lps

cpuScientist wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

Yeah that constant yo-yo of hey Stam is good. Nahhhhhh psyche it's bad. JK it's good. NOPE HAHA you suck again. Nah but seriously it's good. NOOOOOOPE it sucks.

Relying on sets sooo hard to do all it's damage. From VMA daggers the maelsteom bow staple, relyquen all the penetration sets necessary. It is fake it is just so BAAAD.

IMO stamMelee should be highest dps follwed by magMelee then mag ranged. But keep them close enough for an all ranged to be fine and dandy the safest route. But fastedt clears possible be with melee. Because no matter what always need range. Melee can almost only ever be so many slots. Then rank the interDPS like the melee by easiest to sustain and survive on have slightly worst to hardest rotation and difficulty sustain has slightly better.

But this is SORC THREAD SO SORRY.

BUFF SORC SUSTAIN. DELETE RUNE CAGE.

In balanced games like WoW, mages have insane amount of CC's slows and roots infinite mobility the best kiting abilities the best defensive cooldown ingame and great burst dps potential while melee's have bigger sustained dps output.

Now in ESO when i streak i spend 2500 magica, when i streak again i spend 50% more. My 8th streak costs 18k or something? Well let me tell you that i have no ability to slow a stamina enemy that whines on forums and keeps gapclosing me with 2k stam cost + slow and no cost increase.

Rune cage is fine, i dont use it and i have 0 issues on countering it. Perhaps you should L2P and get some information about other stuns like fear+ fossilize that is the best of all.

PS
Before you talk about range, fear has a ranged morph and fossilize dont need to be ranged since dk's are melee class.

_Ahala_

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...

You forgot
- 0 (DPS) Warden
But I guess that goes without saying

JobooAGS

cpuScientist wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

Yeah that constant yo-yo of hey Stam is good. Nahhhhhh psyche it's bad. JK it's good. NOPE HAHA you suck again. Nah but seriously it's good. NOOOOOOPE it sucks.

Relying on sets sooo hard to do all it's damage. From VMA daggers the maelsteom bow staple, relyquen all the penetration sets necessary. It is fake it is just so BAAAD.

IMO stamMelee should be highest dps follwed by magMelee then mag ranged. But keep them close enough for an all ranged to be fine and dandy the safest route. But fastedt clears possible be with melee. Because no matter what always need range. Melee can almost only ever be so many slots. Then rank the interDPS like the melee by easiest to sustain and survive on have slightly worst to hardest rotation and difficulty sustain has slightly better.

But this is SORC THREAD SO SORRY.

BUFF SORC SUSTAIN. DELETE RUNE CAGE.

What about ranged stam? Should they be in been melee mag and ranged mag?

lassitershawn

Gonna mostly ignore PvP cause I haven't done much of it in a while and only in BGs against mostly scrubs when I play. Rune cage is strong. WTB frag stun back.

Sorcs (and pretty much everyone else) are far behind magblade for PvE DPS. Magblade has the best healing (self and group), relies less on healers, and best DPS. These strengths play into the newest trials very well (no cprayer in either, healing from DPS needed in both. In vAS your healers don't heal you much and in vCR crazy healing is needed including NB healing ults). Very importantly, they can SUSTAIN. They can sustain a 6 mil without orbs.

Additionally, because magblades can do "everything" on their own, they rarely have to sacrifice. I need to slot crit surge or twilight if I need to go downstairs in vCR because I don't have easy heals attached to powerful DPS skills. That means I lose channeled acceleration and my minor force/speed. If I want berserk in the two newest trials where I don't get cprayer, I'm running slimecraw while a NB gets to use a proc set giving a few k DPS. They can sustain bistat food in vCR meaning less investment in health (more mag) and more mag from the food itself = more damage.

Magblades do deserve to be strong by virtue of having the most challenging rotation but having 7/8 - 8/8 as magblades is ridiculous from a balance standpoint and unhealthy for the game.

For PvE balance, other classes need to be brought up to par with magblade. I'll speak on what I think should be done for sorc since that is my main and let others speak for their class (btw plz buff magwarden I really wanna try it).

1. Fix two birds with one stone. Bound aegis is only utilized for the passive and sorc sustain is bad. Remove the stupid tanking active and make it a sustain active akin to netch or siphon. Newsflash!!! Nobody. Tanks. On. Sorc. Almost nothing else in the class is usable on tank. Sorc tank is a joke (unless you're a dps using a taunt for ez dungeons and you still wouldn't use bound aegis). Keep the max mag on it (if you put it on passive it is literally identical to NB passive and I don't think ZoS will do that) but give it some kind of way to return magicka. It can't just flat out restore without being a netch copy so my proposal would be to make it a bit like cfrags - usable on some proc condition for a couple seconds. This fits with the reactionary theme of the class that we get from crystal frags as well. Making the class able to sustain a dummy solo for 2 minutes with clockwork/WMPB is the goal here. Sustain can still be inferior to magblade.
- Gives 8% max magicka and minor resolve/ward. Procs on x condition (idk what it should be, be creative zeni). Cast to restore x magicka.

2. Give the sorc who drops an atro the same damage bonus the synergizer gets. Kind of like an OP version of master architect. The atro is our strongest single target ult but unfortunately single target isn't usable in a lot of places rn (destro ult pretty much mandatory in vAS for example) because AoE is needed and the atro has other limitations. It is often better to just bar shooting star for the passives.

3. Increase base radius of Liquid Lightning. Larger radius means you are less likely to have to reapply if the tank moves the boss or the boss moves itself. You also get some more cleave and non-pet magsorc is really nothing special when it comes to cleave. Alternatively (and ideally imo) make it a sticky AoE (same radius as now). Very unique and no chance of the target getting out of the LL. A bit radical but kind of cool and very unique. Not quite sure how it would best work with the synergy but probably just make it activatable within a certain radius (ideally a radius where the tank usually gets the synergy so it isn't stolen by DPS). If a sticky LL is too strong in PvP, allow people to shake it off with break free (like you would do with eclipse).

This should barely affect PvP and isn't going to break PvE. Even with orbs (meaning full LA rotation) sorc DPS is inferior to magblade so if sorc was made sustainable on a 6m it would still be less DPS (especially with GCDs consumed by a sustain skill like new aegis). We add a bit more spice to the rotation with an active instead of passive barslot, and buff the currently average cleave with either sticky LL or increased radius LL. With the atro buff, we make our strongest ult usable everywhere (I hope).

---

Regarding Pets:
Scamps and twilights are boring. If you asked most people what two daedra they want to summon those two would be bottom of the list. Flame atro plz for damage morph of twilight. Buff the base damage to make up for not being shock and make the active worth using (pet DPS toons use the healing morph cause the DPS morph is sooooo bad and the active being unusable in a rotation is part of what makes petsorc boring). If you actually wanted to do something with a tank pet and sorc tanks in general, turn the clannfear into a spider daedra and allow it to use strands of silk to pull enemies to IT (along with some kind of debuff like it doing minor maim with basic attacks). Make it so the twilight scales on health OR magicka so that sorc tanks still have a heal. Make positioning pets where you want them easier.

---

Sorry the post is so long, but I really want to see sorcs (AND OTHER CLASSES but I main sorc) competitive with magblade in endgame PvE and I also want to see a more interesting and dynamic sorc. Let me know what yall think. I have 106 days on my main magsorc and do the vast majority of my DPS on the spec. magsorc. Also buff warden.

Crixus8000

Another thing that has been really bothering me lately in pvp with my stam sorc is that I always feel so slow and so much messes with our speed or makes it seem pointless.

You can run fast but your still going to be getting destroyed by ranged classes spamming hard hitting skills from stupid distances, so your forced to use los but poisons go through cc immunity so I'm being snared no matter what and that makes running around objects and escaping basically impossible. There is already so much cc and snare in this game, every skill seems like it's comes with a free snare, I don't get why poisons can just ignore your immunity. I have started building for more tankiness instead of relying on speed for survivability and I'm playing 10x better.

cpuScientist

JobooAGS wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

Yeah that constant yo-yo of hey Stam is good. Nahhhhhh psyche it's bad. JK it's good. NOPE HAHA you suck again. Nah but seriously it's good. NOOOOOOPE it sucks.

Relying on sets sooo hard to do all it's damage. From VMA daggers the maelsteom bow staple, relyquen all the penetration sets necessary. It is fake it is just so BAAAD.

IMO stamMelee should be highest dps follwed by magMelee then mag ranged. But keep them close enough for an all ranged to be fine and dandy the safest route. But fastedt clears possible be with melee. Because no matter what always need range. Melee can almost only ever be so many slots. Then rank the interDPS like the melee by easiest to sustain and survive on have slightly worst to hardest rotation and difficulty sustain has slightly better.

But this is SORC THREAD SO SORRY.

BUFF SORC SUSTAIN. DELETE RUNE CAGE.

What about ranged stam? Should they be in been melee mag and ranged mag?

Yeah I purposely left them out cause. They are in a precarious position now aren't they. Obviously higher risk than mag range and difficult to sustain on. But they are niche and not the best build for said classes, as those classes have a way to get higher DPS by going melee. Like a range magDK, doable but they were meant for melee so should they pull magSorc numbers from range? Its that kind of thing IMO. So I don't know. I want them to be a thing. I think a ranges stamBlade could be really good and I've seen good numbers out of them. But they are stigma bound lol.

I don't know that would have to be a discussion. My current answer would probably be less, except for certain classes that could pull equal. But not more than mag sorcs/blades.

cpuScientist

Nicko_Lps wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

Yeah that constant yo-yo of hey Stam is good. Nahhhhhh psyche it's bad. JK it's good. NOPE HAHA you suck again. Nah but seriously it's good. NOOOOOOPE it sucks.

Relying on sets sooo hard to do all it's damage. From VMA daggers the maelsteom bow staple, relyquen all the penetration sets necessary. It is fake it is just so BAAAD.

IMO stamMelee should be highest dps follwed by magMelee then mag ranged. But keep them close enough for an all ranged to be fine and dandy the safest route. But fastedt clears possible be with melee. Because no matter what always need range. Melee can almost only ever be so many slots. Then rank the interDPS like the melee by easiest to sustain and survive on have slightly worst to hardest rotation and difficulty sustain has slightly better.

But this is SORC THREAD SO SORRY.

BUFF SORC SUSTAIN. DELETE RUNE CAGE.

In balanced games like WoW, mages have insane amount of CC's slows and roots infinite mobility the best kiting abilities the best defensive cooldown ingame and great burst dps potential while melee's have bigger sustained dps output.

Now in ESO when i streak i spend 2500 magica, when i streak again i spend 50% more. My 8th streak costs 18k or something? Well let me tell you that i have no ability to slow a stamina enemy that whines on forums and keeps gapclosing me with 2k stam cost + slow and no cost increase.

Rune cage is fine, i dont use it and i have 0 issues on countering it. Perhaps you should L2P and get some information about other stuns like fear+ fossilize that is the best of all.

PS
Before you talk about range, fear has a ranged morph and fossilize dont need to be ranged since dk's are melee class.

Coolio

Septimus_Magna

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:

(1) Overtuned pet sorcs. Playing solo against a pet sorc using Shackle or Imperial Physique + Necropotence is next to impossible. Their shields are too strong and they do too much damage. With Daedric Prey, Force Pulse and Soul Assault, you cannot even counter them as a flappy DK. They don't depend on Frags.

I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

(2) The inability to judge how much damage you do against them. Their health does not move, since they are shielded, and since they are shield stacking, their shields typically hold at all times. This could be mitigated by showing an extended health bar that includes shields or other UI enhancements.

1) pet sorcs only work in small scale fights, I agree they are annoying to fight but thats mainly because the sorc can hide behind his pets which makes it hard to hit him. I think pets would be easier to balance if they were medium-long duration summons that could not be targetted or killed (like NB shade). That would also make pet sorc build more viable in trails.

I dont understand how you do ridiculous high dmg with a pet sorc in PVE if you're used to a stam DK or magicka NB, both classes should deal a lot more dps. Magicka NB is top of the food chain for magicka DDs and pet sorc is probably bottom with magicka Warden.

2) You can turn on out-going dmg (settings>combat) so you see how much dmg you do against the target, if the dmg is shielded you'll see the number between brackets. Some add-ons also give a more clear indication of how much shield is left.

JobooAGS

cpuScientist wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

BuddyAces wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

My latest pain point?

Getting asked to please log in my meh geared magblade for progression runs instead of my totally golded and BiS magsorc I did trials with, for years.

Good thing you don't play stam o.O

Yeah that constant yo-yo of hey Stam is good. Nahhhhhh psyche it's bad. JK it's good. NOPE HAHA you suck again. Nah but seriously it's good. NOOOOOOPE it sucks.

Relying on sets sooo hard to do all it's damage. From VMA daggers the maelsteom bow staple, relyquen all the penetration sets necessary. It is fake it is just so BAAAD.

IMO stamMelee should be highest dps follwed by magMelee then mag ranged. But keep them close enough for an all ranged to be fine and dandy the safest route. But fastedt clears possible be with melee. Because no matter what always need range. Melee can almost only ever be so many slots. Then rank the interDPS like the melee by easiest to sustain and survive on have slightly worst to hardest rotation and difficulty sustain has slightly better.

But this is SORC THREAD SO SORRY.

BUFF SORC SUSTAIN. DELETE RUNE CAGE.

What about ranged stam? Should they be in been melee mag and ranged mag?

Yeah I purposely left them out cause. They are in a precarious position now aren't they. Obviously higher risk than mag range and difficult to sustain on. But they are niche and not the best build for said classes, as those classes have a way to get higher DPS by going melee. Like a range magDK, doable but they were meant for melee so should they pull magSorc numbers from range? Its that kind of thing IMO. So I don't know. I want them to be a thing. I think a ranges stamBlade could be really good and I've seen good numbers out of them. But they are stigma bound lol.

I don't know that would have to be a discussion. My current answer would probably be less, except for certain classes that could pull equal. But not more than mag sorcs/blades.

Stam warden actually seems like a better canidate for ranged stam. They can provide major slayer to ranged with war machine, they can provide some off heals with lotus flower and they provide lots of cleave damage and aoe fracture which means faster trash pulls/less add uptimes.

Edit: despite this, you are right that ranged stam is lacking and could use something else to bring them more in line with their ranged magicka counterparts. I say a unique buff/debuff to the group/boss would do it.

Edit 2: If they use focused aim, (birds seems like the better option anyway) they can also apply minor fracture if there is no stamplar in group. Though I would rather see them buff birds and make it a morph other than just a stam morph.

Aedaryl

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:

(1) Overtuned pet sorcs. Playing solo against a pet sorc using Shackle or Imperial Physique + Necropotence is next to impossible. Their shields are too strong and they do too much damage. With Daedric Prey, Force Pulse and Soul Assault, you cannot even counter them as a flappy DK. They don't depend on Frags.

I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

(2) The inability to judge how much damage you do against them. Their health does not move, since they are shielded, and since they are shield stacking, their shields typically hold at all times. This could be mitigated by showing an extended health bar that includes shields or other UI enhancements.

1) pet sorcs only work in small scale fights, I agree they are annoying to fight but thats mainly because the sorc can hide behind his pets which makes it hard to hit him. I think pets would be easier to balance if they were medium-long duration summons that could not be targetted or killed (like NB shade). That would also make pet sorc build more viable in trails.

I dont understand how you do ridiculous high dmg with a pet sorc in PVE if you're used to a stam DK or magicka NB, both classes should deal a lot more dps. Magicka NB is top of the food chain for magicka DDs and pet sorc is probably bottom with magicka Warden.

2) You can turn on out-going dmg (settings>combat) so you see how much dmg you do against the target, if the dmg is shielded you'll see the number between brackets. Some add-ons also give a more clear indication of how much shield is left.

Making the volatile familiar and matriarch shadow pet is not a bad idea, however, atronach need to stay targetable, it's an ultimate that's already useless in PvP when people have a half brain, if you are not able to at least LoS with it, then atronach in PvP is dead and openworld pet sorc is dead.

Making pets long or medium summons with a timer can only work if the cast time is removed.

Having your only heal, your main damage source removed, and your shield + overall damage decrease, the all locked between 3.5s cast time is not viable. Especially on a shield class, you can't afford it, even more when you are outnumbered.

Contrathetix

First of all, apologies for any mistakes I may make, I am new to the forums and mostly play the game for the fun of it, but I do enjoy reading the forums (most of the time, when I manage to keep calm when reading some posts/threads), the UESP wiki, the patch notes and things like that and thought I could try and provide feedback based on my tiny little observations.

For background reference, I have been playing a dedicated sorcerer healer in PvE content. Yes, it is not optimal, but it works despite some of its shortcomings, and I have found awesome people willing to drag me through content. I have been playing my sorcerer for several months now (only got back to ESO around Christmas after a long break). Originally, I started with a templar healer before moving to sorcerer and have now been working on a warden healer for the past week (approximately) to gain more perspective (also related to this post).

As for the two issues that I think may be the most glaring ones from my perspective playing as a sorcerer healer, I would maybe list (at the time of writing) the following:

• complete lack of group-wide damage mitigation capabilities and
• level implementation bugs that cause Energy Orbs (the only resource restoration synergy for sorcerer healers) to be extremely difficult/annoying/impossible to use in certain boss fights.

To provide reasoning for the two points... first damage mitigation! This is the absolute most annoying thing I have had to live with and is very much exaggerated in trials where pure healing output needs to be through the ceiling because I cannot pre-emptively cast a magicka ability to mitigate incoming damage for everyone near me. Yes, sorcerers absolutely do have access to at least two strong shields for personal use (Conjured Ward and its morphs from Daedric Summoning class skill line, Annulment from Light Armour skill line) as well as resistance buff for personal use (Lightning Form from Storm Calling class skill line) but those are personal items that do not help the rest of the group. Circle of Protection and its morphs from Fighters Guild skill line cost stamina and they do indeed cost a whole lot of stamina on a magicka character with limited stamina regen, stamina pool and the need to sprint, roll-dodge or block at times.

First, physical and spell resistance buffs or damage shields for allies. Lightning Form grants sorcerer Major Resolve and Major Ward for 15...23 seconds (depending on the morph) and only the sorcerer who casts it. Which makes it basically redundant for a healer, unless used to improve healer survivability, but I do not have bar space for a skill that grants me personally a tiny few percentage damage mitigation that prevents another skill from being slotted (like an actual shield, a heal, a buff, etc. something more useful for a healer). For reference and for reasoning as to why sorcerers should (in my opinion) have access to a group-wide damage mitigation ability:

• Warden has access to the same Major Resolve and Major Ward for 21...24 seconds (not depending on morph) through a class-based skill (Frost Cloak from Winter's Embrace class skill line) that also grants the same damage mitigation to all allies around the healer (whereas the sorcerer ability only grants to the caster).
• Dragonknight has access to a group damage shield (Obsidian Shield from Earthen Heart class skill line) that grants a damage shield (albeit a small one) to allies nearby for 6 seconds (the shield may not be too big, but combined with Major Mending at the click of a button it is useful for both the healer and the rest of the group). Dragonknight also has access to Minor Maim (reduce damage output by enemies) to all nearby enemies for 7 seconds through Choking Talons (a morph of Dark Talons from Draconic Power class skill line)
• Nightblade has access to Major Protection (reduce damage taken) for allies nearby (Consuming Darkness, an ultimate ability from from Shadow class skill line) for 14...15.5 seconds (depending on morph) that also has a large burst heal synergy attached to it. Nightblade also has access to Minor Main (reduce enemy damage output) for 4 seconds on one enemy basically, which looks sort of lame but may work in a bossfight or not (probably not) but it is there (Summon Shade from Shadow class skill line).
• Templar has access to Major Maim (reduces enemy damage output) for (at least) 8 seconds on all enemies around Nova (ultimate ability from Dawn's Wrath class skill line) with also a handy stun and damage synergy attached. But apparently not even templars have the ability to do group-wide damage mitigation with something other than an ultimate.... ??

Sorcerer healer using staves does not seem to have an ability-based way to apply damage output reduction on enemies and does not have the ability to provide meaningful damage shields or resistance buffs to others. Combat Prayer from Restoration Staff does not count, everyone has access to it and it is such a small buff anyway. Wearing Healing Mage set (Mending, from Aetherian Archive) is an option but the damage reduction is so small, lasts only 3 seconds and the healer needs to keep running past/between/over/under/behind enemies to keep it up. There exists no way to do meaningful damage mitigation and it is so annoying.

Proposed solution to lack of group damage mitigation abilities for sorcerers: replace one skill morph (one that is used rarely, or not at all) with a group damage mitigation ability. Some options could include Lightning Form (from Storm Calling class skill line for sorcerers) or even a less used Restoration Staff skill line ability, such as Force Siphon that seems to be used somewhat little because of the limited utility. Adding group damage mitigation abilities to Restoration Staff skill line would not only solve the issue of a non-ultimate damage reduction ability for sorcerers but also for all other classes that lack one! It would be a win-win-win situation for everyone.

Enter an imaginary example replacement for Force Siphon from Restoration Staff for illustrative purposes!

Common:

• skill line: Restoration Staff
• rank required: 40?
• replaces: Force Siphon
• requires: a restoration staff equipped to cast, effect remains after bar-swapping

Base ability:

• name: Protective Aura
• cast time: 1 second (an actual 1 second animation where the player swings the staff around, the warden Frost Cloak is instant so adding a short cast time here will help keep warden ability useful)
• type: radius centred on the caster, ground area of effect
• radius: 8 metres (small for a ground area of effect, but to keep warden Frost Cloak useful)
• cost: 4050 magicka (same as warden Frost Cloak base cost before morphs)
• duration: [18 / 19 / 20 / 21] seconds (same as warden Frost Cloak before morphs)
• description: Conjure a protective aura through your staff to create an aura of protection that grants you and allies in the area Major Resolve and Major Ward, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280.

First morph option: increases radius, applies Minor Lifesteal to enemies, reduces cost.

• name: Siphoning Aura
• cast time: 1 second (keeping the cast time)
• type: radius centred on the caster, ground area of effect
• radius: 12 metres (more useful as a static ground circle ability)
• cost: [3950 / 3900 / 3850 / 3800] magicka (decreases as the rank progresses, but remains much more expensive than warden skill)
• duration: 21 seconds (keeping this static, warden skill remains longer)
• description: Conjure a protective aura through your staff to grant you and allies in the area Major Resolve and Major Ward, increasing your Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. Applies Minor Lifesteal on enemies within the aura, healing you and your allies for 600 Health every 1 second when damaging them.

Second morph: converts into ground target area effect, reduces cost, removes ally resistance buff, applies Minor Maim to enemies.

• name: Maiming Aura
• cast time: 1 second (keeping the cast time to maintain warden uniqueness)
• type: ground target area effect
• range: 28 metres
• radius: 8 metres (keeping this)
• cost: [3500 / 3400 / 3300 / 3200] magicka (reduces as rank rises)
• duration: 10 seconds max maybe (static)
• description: Conjure a weakening aura through your staff to inflict enemies in the target area with Minor Maim, decreasing their damage done by 15% while within the aura.

That is just one idea. Sorcerer healers could use a group damage mitigation ability, so it would be awesome if one would be added somehow, for example by editing an existing less used skill appropriately. Replacing Force Siphon from restoration staff could be one option, and would also make the ability available to all healers using a restoration staff.

As for damage mitigation using Barrier from Alliance War skill lines (Support, ultimate): based on the patch notes and my own observations (trying to see how many have a bubble on them after cast), Barrier seems to have a target cap of 6 people (due to ZOS nerfing it after PvP people had issues with it) which makes it somewhat less useful in trials. Barrier would be a very useful ultimate ability in PvE if it had a 12 people cap. Of course the cap could be set to 6 people in Cyrodiil if ZOS wants that, I assume they have the ability to do it considering how also shields are adjusted in PvP content? Maybe.... ?

Finally, the other issue I have, sorry about the lengthy post. The issue of buggy level implementation causing Orbs as resource restoration synergy to be awfully inconvenient in specific boss fights. This is very much evident at Aetherian Archive at The Mage boss where the platform has been built in a way that - while it looks smooth and flat enough - causes orbs to:

• not move at all,
• vanish (I assume moving somewhere else as part of their 'climb obstacles' feature) or
• not move at all and then suddenly vanish.

The issue at the final boss of AA is that sending orbs to the tank who is tanking the floating weapons at the edges of the platform becomes either extremely dangerous (getting close enough so the orbs will not bug out on their way to the tank) or extremely impossible or (if there happens to be some spot where orbs actually do travel to the edges) extremely experimental with regards to positioning. The platform looks flat, everyone can walk around with ease but the orbs bug out and it is veeeeeery inconvenient. It would be awesome if someone at ZOS could investigate and fix this finally one day. Another problematic platform is the Warden of the Shrine fight in City of Ash 1 (if I remember correctly) where there is a tiny platform relatively high with a huge tree next to it and a moderate fall down behind the boss and where orbs also bug out when cast and cannot be used (get stuck, vanish, etc.).

I think those were my two greatest issues. Sorry about the length. I would love to see group-wide damage mitigation abilities added to sorcerer and I do not mind even having one or two sorcerer-specific shield/protection abilities converted into a morph choice between selfish shielding and group shielding. Forcing people to choose between selfish benefit (added damage, more shield, a buff) and group benefit (group-wide damage mitigation/shield without self-buffs) could maybe reduce the amount of dps running group shields? Adding group shields/protection to restoration staff is probably not ideal but I have no idea. Hopefully at least someone will somewhere one day consider adding some group support to sorcerers. Also if anyone knows anything I do not (which is basically guaranteed), I would love to learn more. I mostly play for fun so will not know everything more serious players would know.

BuddyAces

There are much larger issues in PvP than sorc pets. The argument of them being too hard is pointless. You're not suppose to be able to kill every single build with your character 1 on 1. Bypass them and find another target.

I agree with the fella who posted about the unending CC that gets put on you but that's PvP in this game for ANY class that doesn't slot purge. If CC immunity actually worked (lol) things would be so much better. The fact that I can be cc'd indefinitely at times, whether it's coding or server registration, this late in the game's life cycle is kinda sad. But that's for another topic.

Minalan

Ankael07 wrote: »

So its been 10 pages of feedback and what did we get in 4.1 patch ? Mage's Fury fixed to be dodgeable, Rune Cage damage reverted (which wasnt even the main issue with this skill) oh and Overload heavy attacks proc enchantments now (who even uses this outside of roleplaying as Sidius?)

Is it really necessary to have a Sorcerer representative to fix 2 bugs and revert 1 change every 4 months?

There is so much truth this about this garbage program here.

The hilarious alternative is going back to the devs NOT listening to any of us, how has *that* worked so far?

MissBizz

1) I'm out of magicka.
2) I'm still out of magicka.

Please help sustain. Sustain everywhere got hit in Morrowind, but it's really bad on sorc. Hopping on other characters is extremely relieving in the sustain department.

Minalan

Two “bug fixes” and a nerf. This program is a pathetic joke.

Meanwhile, if you’re a nightblade:
- You can dodge sloads
- You can cloak sloads
- You can dodge wrath
- Cage won’t damage you
- You can see people with detect pots and mage light. So you know exactly when to leap to your shade.
- You have to drink a pot and wait an extra second for incap to stun. But it still does everything on the menu. And we’re still working on reducing that cost Nerf further...

Dear ZOS. You can’t possibly be serious about this patch. That is all.

Beardimus

These threads become depressing. It feels the Sorc feedback is disregarded, but the Sorc hate feedback is reacted too. And sadly those haters hate no matter whats up.

I'd prefer ZOS to act on data and just communicate.

bardx86

Minalan wrote: »

Two “bug fixes” and a nerf. This program is a pathetic joke.

Meanwhile, if you’re a nightblade:
- You can dodge sloads
- You can cloak sloads
- You can dodge wrath
- Cage won’t damage you
- You can see people with detect pots and mage light. So you know exactly when to leap to your shade.
- You have to drink a pot and wait an extra second for incap to stun. But it still does everything on the menu. And we’re still working on reducing that cost Nerf further...

Dear ZOS. You can’t possibly be serious about this patch. That is all.

No skill NB's can whine to no end. I guess their sustain is better than Sorcs.

BuddyAces

Minalan wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

So its been 10 pages of feedback and what did we get in 4.1 patch ? Mage's Fury fixed to be dodgeable, Rune Cage damage reverted (which wasnt even the main issue with this skill) oh and Overload heavy attacks proc enchantments now (who even uses this outside of roleplaying as Sidius?)

Is it really necessary to have a Sorcerer representative to fix 2 bugs and revert 1 change every 4 months?

There is so much truth this about this garbage program here.

The hilarious alternative is going back to the devs NOT listening to any of us, how has *that* worked so far?

I'm failing to see how everyone thought that this rep program was going to be anything different than what was plainly outlined. The rep's jobs are to bring up the PAIN POINTS of the class that they are basically assigned to. The devs look at that list (which is/should be compromised from the community) and select what one(s) to target and how to fix it. The reps DO NOT in any way shape or form get to dictate how any changes are done. All they do is point out the problem points. That's it.