[Class Rep] Sorcerer Feedback Thread

SickleCider · July 2018

The heavy attack on inferno staves is. . . weird. The animation is really long, and for the entire duration, your toon holds the same position. There's no visual feedback on how much "charge" there is in your staff, making it difficult for you to choose whether you should release in certain situations. I'd like a shorter animation and more visual clarity. Maybe, the longer you hold, the more flame your staff is wreathed in, or the larger the fireball at the head becomes? An audio cue, like an intensifying crackling of flame, would help too. In fact, if we're talking from a stance of pure spectacle, the inferno staff's effects are very underwhelming. There's a lot of soft 'puff' going on. lol

Edit: While we're talking about visual things, the sorcerer pets really bug me. My build would benefit from having a pet out, but I refuse to use one because they're so bright, loud, and intrusive. I really want something more subtle. I keep wishing my shadowghost wolf could just take the place of a clannfear (seeing as how there are already wolf attack animations). Failing swapping out models, it'd be nice to just be able to put skins on the types of pets we have. If I could make my clannfear black, I might consider it.

Gallagher563 · July 2018

Kattemynte wrote: »

The issue I have with sorcerers is that our passive Implosion, where it looks cool in writing, just does not seem effective. During the past 6 vet dungeon runs with my stamina sorcerer I average 3-4 implosions between all the bosses combined. It ends up being a minimal dps increase (anywhere between 200-500 dps)
I wish this could either have a higher chance to proc or have it proc at a higher health threshold. It is just barely more helpful than my 2nd point of the passive Capacitor being useful to stamina sorcs. In general there are more magicka based passives for all classes than there is stamina and that I think should also be addressed.

I agree with you on a StamSorc but not on a MagSorc. The main reason being lightning damage being more reliable in terms of dots and an execute that is deadly in PVP.

Morgul667 · July 2018

Was happy with the proposed ideas with stamsorc of last meeting minute

Didnt see anything in the patch note

Stamsorc need some love: some passive or mobility? Anything?

Gallagher563 · July 2018

I think the reps meet again tomorrow.

Benemime · July 2018

Dark Magic

Crystal Blast: Decrease the cast time since it performs poorly on both pvp and pve. On pvp if you succeed casting 1 crystal blast, it's a blast of joy, because it's hard as hell and you can't do nothing while casting, idk it just feel like it takes longer than 1 second. On pve, you keep "recasting" it without actually hitting, because mobs often dies first if you are doing a group content (and sometimes when you are solo as well), or maybe you succeed casting and when it hits the target, the mob is already dead and the AoE doesn't hit the other mobs around because it seems like it hitted nothing (that's another thing that would be nice if it was addressed). I wouldn't like to see this skill working like crystal frags (proc) because it's nice having a spammable and not having to be forced to slot force pulse on your bar (after playing for years you start to hate force pulse and its generic animation effect), even tho you can't use light attacks between each crystal blast because consecutively casting is faster, the first cast of crystal blast always takes more time it seems.

Persistence: "After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less." - meh, as magicka sorcerer i would expect having block/bash cost reduction, even if it was just for 2/4%

Daedric Summoning

Summon Volatile Familiar: The description says: "Once summoned, you can activate the familiar's special ability, dealing 509 Shock Damage every 2 seconds for 8 seconds to enemies near him." - Although it hits with shock damage, the pulse animation effect looks like (dark) magic damage, it simply doesn't match! Just give it a animation like Impulse (destro staff skill) that at least is already there in the game. lol

Haunting Curse: "Curse an enemy with a destructive rune, dealing [2436 / 2462 / 2489 / 2515] Magic Damage to the target and [1121 / 1133 / 1146 / 1158] Magic Damage to all other nearby enemies after 3.5 seconds. The curse will continue to haunt the enemy and explode a second time, dealing [2436 / 2462 / 2489 / 2515] Magic Damage to the target and [1121 / 1133 / 1146 / 1158] Magic Damage to all other nearby enemies after an additional 8.5 seconds." - My 2 cents, the second explosion is a waste of time for dps (situational useful in pvp tho), it takes a long time to explode dealing the same amount of damage as the first explosion, don't rely on the 2nd explosion if you care about dps, you should just rely on the 2nd explosion if you don't have much magicka to waste, and it could be situational useful on pvp. IMO, for waiting so long it should at least cause more dmg.

Bound Aegis: This skill is good but I feel like the active effect is passable for magsorcs. I never use it. So I think the morph should also change the active effect to give us something useful for the active counterpart. (I might be wrong tho, is there any magsorcs that use this actively? I just forget that this skill exists and I pop hardened ward instead). By the way, Minor Ward and Minor Resolve are not showing on the character menu that tracks the buffs that are active (at least on xbox).

Rebate (passive): If falls flat even when using a pet build, you wish it could do more.

Expert Summner (passive): I think my opinion about this passive is controversial, but I think it could be a more generic passive, maybe decreasing the % and allowing more builds to use it, not just a pet build.

Storm Calling

Overload: I don't have much to say I just don't like it, casting LA is clunky as hell and Idk what happens but my character gets 1000 times clunkier when I go ult mode, like if it was gagging while trying to do stuff.

Lightning Storm/Boundless Storm: I would like to see less obtrusive effects, the current effects covers the whole armor and it makes you look bland

SickleCider · July 2018

Benemime wrote: »

[. . .] By the way, Minor Ward and Minor Resolve are not showing on the character menu that tracks the buffs that are active (at least on xbox) [. . .]

This has been bugging me. My set bonuses aren't showing up there, either. PS4.

Gprime31 · July 2018

Give us a insta stun ult like DB or incap!
And take flight .

Gprime31 · July 2018

Also get rid of runecage and bring back frag stun

kts · July 2018

Pets

Sucks when your raid group says you can't use an entire class defining skill line during specific boss fights in trials so you have to put the pets away. Please make them more viable for all content !

fred4 · July 2018

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:

(1) Overtuned pet sorcs. Playing solo against a pet sorc using Shackle or Imperial Physique + Necropotence is next to impossible. Their shields are too strong and they do too much damage. With Daedric Prey, Force Pulse and Soul Assault, you cannot even counter them as a flappy DK. They don't depend on Frags.

I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

(2) The inability to judge how much damage you do against them. Their health does not move, since they are shielded, and since they are shield stacking, their shields typically hold at all times. This could be mitigated by showing an extended health bar that includes shields or other UI enhancements.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2018

Benemime wrote: »

Persistence: "After blocking an attack, your next Magicka or Stamina ability costs 15% less." - meh, as magicka sorcerer i would expect having block/bash cost reduction, even if it was just for 2/4%

Useless passives for either mag or stam sorcs are like a red thread through all sorc class lines. I'd really be happy if the passives get overhauled so they benefit both sides, much like it's with NBs.

Vahrokh · July 2018

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

Gallagher563 · July 2018

Any news for the meeting yesterday?

Lord_Eomer · July 2018

Rune cage is BG, Duels, IC destroyer!

Mages Fury and Implosion works together like a killer!

Aliyavana · July 2018

if hurricane could remove snares, that would help out stam sorcs tremendously as we are supposed to be THE mobile class. What this would do is remove us from relying on 2h for snare removal and would allow us for more build variety. The cost ofc would make us have to lose the dps we could have gained for leaving hurricane on longer but the snare removal would be a nice trade off

SilverWF · July 2018

Mag Sorcs could get some love...

Crixus8000 · July 2018

This is from a pvp stam sorc perspective.

I would like one of the ultimates to work well with stam sorc. Some have mentioned a physical atronach, that could be good.

And we need more stam morphs and better passives. A lot of our passives only work with magicka sorc.

Morgul667 · July 2018

stamsorc need some love : passive or snare removal or ultimate

Id go with passive or snare removal though

Another comme ti read here: magsorc get some hate cause we cant see their health moving

If there was a low ressource indicator that would help but would probably be too big of a change.

Crixus8000 · July 2018

Vapirko wrote: »

For Stamina Sorc:

1. Bound armaments still needs work. Losing 5k stamina on your backbar is not acceptable, this means that it’s still more or less required to double slot it, for PvP at least. The increased block mitigation for three seconds isn’t worth anything. Give us back the minor ward or some other effect. Without bound armaments slotted, stamina sorcs have pretty low regen and resource pools and we don’t have the class skills to make up for it. This imo, is the main issue with stamina sorcs and is very limiting. I think stam sorcs have to make more sacrifices about what to have on their bars than maybe any other class.

I agree with this. I still double bar it for pvp because I don't like losing so much stats on backbar, and I find the stam and hp regen kinda useless only on my offensive bar, when I spend most of my time on my backbar.

And yeah the block mitigation in pvp anyway is terrible, way too expensive for such a weak effect, especially since most of the killers in pvp go through block anyway.

fred4 · July 2018

Vahrokh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

As I have said, this is from a PvP perspective, NOT a trials perspective. Not everything is about trials! They are not the arbiter of what makes a class OP in other situations!

Not many people run pet sorcs in PvP, as far as I can see, but they are extremely hard to counter in a 1v1. One of my friends doesn't even accept duels from pet sorcs. Another friend is / was by far the strongest with a pet sorc, against me. These are people who, like me, are at least half decent at PvP. I have played the game for 3 years.

If I just weave my spammable on the target skeleton with my PvP builds, the damage I get is far, far lower than you are used to seeing in trials. Anything below 10K DPS is too low, anything above 12K DPS is entirely viable. If I get 13K, I am quite happy, and I know this can be a good PvP build. None of my PvP builds really go above that.

If you don't PvP and you have never done a raw damage test, but only full trial rotations on the target skeleton, you will not understand this. PvP is obviously about burst. I am not testing my burst on the skeleton though, cause it's very hard to measure that consistently. I test my spammable over a minute, or so, cause I get consistent numbers with that. Here's the kicker: When I just spam weave Crushing Shock on my pet sorc, I get 18K DPS. That's without Daedric Prey. That's without activating the pet after the initial burst, and only with the scamp, not the Twilight. That's with Crushing Shock having a mediocre tooltip in the mid-2000s, and only having around 40% crit. This test was, however, with Illambris.

You are going to rightfully say that I didn't even attempt to be scientific about that test and I particularly should try without Illambris. I found the 18K number shocking all the same, e.g. the ease with which it was achieved. The same was true when I took the sorc to the Skyreach Throne Room. If you don't know the place, you get waves of enemies that are somewhat dangerous (but not vMA level). I find it a good place to test DPS. If it is too low, you don't finish a wave before the next one. If it is high, you finish a wave well before the next one, and get time to recover resources. Pet sorc was ridiculously fast mowing through that on my first day with that character. I was completely uncoordinated and constantly pressing the wrong buttons while I was learning. Still I got through faster than on any other character. That's what was shocking.

Do people even use pet sorcs in trials? At any rate, I was asked what my pain points are, and this is one of them. I don't claim this is fully analysed, nor that every pet sorc is a problem. However when I ask friends, they will freely admit that pets are overtuned for PvP.

What gives me hope is that Gilliam the Rogue was hired by ZOS and is now working on combat balance. Hopefully he will be able to come up with subtle and appropriate solutions to problems, rather than the nerf-hammer approach. From my perspective, reverting the Crystal Frags damage nerf would probably be fine, as that is dodgeable and reflectable.

cpuScientist · July 2018

fred4 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

As I have said, this is from a PvP perspective, NOT a trials perspective. Not everything is about trials! They are not the arbiter of what makes a class OP in other situations!

Not many people run pet sorcs in PvP, as far as I can see, but they are extremely hard to counter in a 1v1. One of my friends doesn't even accept duels from pet sorcs. Another friend is / was by far the strongest with a pet sorc, against me. These are people who, like me, are at least half decent at PvP. I have played the game for 3 years.

If I just weave my spammable on the target skeleton with my PvP builds, the damage I get is far, far lower than you are used to seeing in trials. Anything below 10K DPS is too low, anything above 12K DPS is entirely viable. If I get 13K, I am quite happy, and I know this can be a good PvP build. None of my PvP builds really go above that.

If you don't PvP and you have never done a raw damage test, but only full trial rotations on the target skeleton, you will not understand this. PvP is obviously about burst. I am not testing my burst on the skeleton though, cause it's very hard to measure that consistently. I test my spammable over a minute, or so, cause I get consistent numbers with that. Here's the kicker: When I just spam weave Crushing Shock on my pet sorc, I get 18K DPS. That's without Daedric Prey. That's without activating the pet after the initial burst, and only with the scamp, not the Twilight. That's with Crushing Shock having a mediocre tooltip in the mid-2000s, and only having around 40% crit. This test was, however, with Illambris.

You are going to rightfully say that I didn't even attempt to be scientific about that test and I particularly should try without Illambris. I found the 18K number shocking all the same, e.g. the ease with which it was achieved. The same was true when I took the sorc to the Skyreach Throne Room. If you don't know the place, you get waves of enemies that are somewhat dangerous (but not vMA level). I find it a good place to test DPS. If it is too low, you don't finish a wave before the next one. If it is high, you finish a wave well before the next one, and get time to recover resources. Pet sorc was ridiculously fast mowing through that on my first day with that character. I was completely uncoordinated and constantly pressing the wrong buttons while I was learning. Still I got through faster than on any other character. That's what was shocking.

Do people even use pet sorcs in trials? At any rate, I was asked what my pain points are, and this is one of them. I don't claim this is fully analysed, nor that every pet sorc is a problem. However when I ask friends, they will freely admit that pets are overtuned for PvP.

What gives me hope is that Gilliam the Rogue was hired by ZOS and is now working on combat balance. Hopefully he will be able to come up with subtle and appropriate solutions to problems, rather than the nerf-hammer approach. From my perspective, reverting the Crystal Frags damage nerf would probably be fine, as that is dodgeable and reflectable.

The problem with pet Sorc in PvP I get you. They are quite tanky, and very annoying in a pure 1v1. 1v2 it starts to get finnicky. XvX it's bad. 1vX it's bad. Basically gotta gank with it. It's good 1v1 though. Sooo damn good. And if they mine camp too lol. It's hilarious. I used to do this with a friend. We use Morkuldin and the deadroth aswell. It was hilarious. 5 pets when everything procced. And we would ice staff root you too. It was good times. Open world we were bad though.

Certain trials you can use pet Sorc certain trials you cannot. It becomes not worthwhile because you have too many instances where you just should not. And have to remorph curse. But if pet Sorc is meta then non pet Sorcs would be annoyed as many magSorcs hate their pets. It's a boring playstyle just heavy attacking. Totes snoresville.

fred4 · July 2018

fred4 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

As I have said, this is from a PvP perspective, NOT a trials perspective. Not everything is about trials! They are not the arbiter of what makes a class OP in other situations!

Not many people run pet sorcs in PvP, as far as I can see, but they are extremely hard to counter in a 1v1. One of my friends doesn't even accept duels from pet sorcs. Another friend is / was by far the strongest with a pet sorc, against me. These are people who, like me, are at least half decent at PvP. I have played the game for 3 years.

If I just weave my spammable on the target skeleton with my PvP builds, the damage I get is far, far lower than you are used to seeing in trials. Anything below 10K DPS is too low, anything above 12K DPS is entirely viable. If I get 13K, I am quite happy, and I know this can be a good PvP build. None of my PvP builds really go above that.

If you don't PvP and you have never done a raw damage test, but only full trial rotations on the target skeleton, you will not understand this. PvP is obviously about burst. I am not testing my burst on the skeleton though, cause it's very hard to measure that consistently. I test my spammable over a minute, or so, cause I get consistent numbers with that. Here's the kicker: When I just spam weave Crushing Shock on my pet sorc, I get 18K DPS. That's without Daedric Prey. That's without activating the pet after the initial burst, and only with the scamp, not the Twilight. That's with Crushing Shock having a mediocre tooltip in the mid-2000s, and only having around 40% crit. This test was, however, with Illambris.

You are going to rightfully say that I didn't even attempt to be scientific about that test and I particularly should try without Illambris. I found the 18K number shocking all the same, e.g. the ease with which it was achieved. The same was true when I took the sorc to the Skyreach Throne Room. If you don't know the place, you get waves of enemies that are somewhat dangerous (but not vMA level). I find it a good place to test DPS. If it is too low, you don't finish a wave before the next one. If it is high, you finish a wave well before the next one, and get time to recover resources. Pet sorc was ridiculously fast mowing through that on my first day with that character. I was completely uncoordinated and constantly pressing the wrong buttons while I was learning. Still I got through faster than on any other character. That's what was shocking.

Do people even use pet sorcs in trials? At any rate, I was asked what my pain points are, and this is one of them. I don't claim this is fully analysed, nor that every pet sorc is a problem. However when I ask friends, they will freely admit that pets are overtuned for PvP.

What gives me hope is that Gilliam the Rogue was hired by ZOS and is now working on combat balance. Hopefully he will be able to come up with subtle and appropriate solutions to problems, rather than the nerf-hammer approach. From my perspective, reverting the Crystal Frags damage nerf would probably be fine, as that is dodgeable and reflectable.

Let me put this another way. I basically run duelling builds in PvP. Not glass cannons, nor tanks, but builds that run half defensive skills and that have some combination of shields, resistances, crit resist and stamina sustain for block / break free / dodge roll. This means, when someone attacks me, even an NB ganker, I am usually able to play defensively for a short while, get my bearings, and see what the other player is about. This is true, even when the other player is wearing Imperial Physique, and I am not. A good pet sorc in Imperial Physique, however, is OP. They hit through block and shields so hard, they'll often kill you outright. This is not to say there isn't a percentage where other players might tank them, escape, or even win against them. It's just to say that this feels unbalanced.

Aedaryl · July 2018

fred4 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

As I have said, this is from a PvP perspective, NOT a trials perspective. Not everything is about trials! They are not the arbiter of what makes a class OP in other situations!

Not many people run pet sorcs in PvP, as far as I can see, but they are extremely hard to counter in a 1v1. One of my friends doesn't even accept duels from pet sorcs. Another friend is / was by far the strongest with a pet sorc, against me. These are people who, like me, are at least half decent at PvP. I have played the game for 3 years.

If I just weave my spammable on the target skeleton with my PvP builds, the damage I get is far, far lower than you are used to seeing in trials. Anything below 10K DPS is too low, anything above 12K DPS is entirely viable. If I get 13K, I am quite happy, and I know this can be a good PvP build. None of my PvP builds really go above that.

If you don't PvP and you have never done a raw damage test, but only full trial rotations on the target skeleton, you will not understand this. PvP is obviously about burst. I am not testing my burst on the skeleton though, cause it's very hard to measure that consistently. I test my spammable over a minute, or so, cause I get consistent numbers with that. Here's the kicker: When I just spam weave Crushing Shock on my pet sorc, I get 18K DPS. That's without Daedric Prey. That's without activating the pet after the initial burst, and only with the scamp, not the Twilight. That's with Crushing Shock having a mediocre tooltip in the mid-2000s, and only having around 40% crit. This test was, however, with Illambris.

You are going to rightfully say that I didn't even attempt to be scientific about that test and I particularly should try without Illambris. I found the 18K number shocking all the same, e.g. the ease with which it was achieved. The same was true when I took the sorc to the Skyreach Throne Room. If you don't know the place, you get waves of enemies that are somewhat dangerous (but not vMA level). I find it a good place to test DPS. If it is too low, you don't finish a wave before the next one. If it is high, you finish a wave well before the next one, and get time to recover resources. Pet sorc was ridiculously fast mowing through that on my first day with that character. I was completely uncoordinated and constantly pressing the wrong buttons while I was learning. Still I got through faster than on any other character. That's what was shocking.

Do people even use pet sorcs in trials? At any rate, I was asked what my pain points are, and this is one of them. I don't claim this is fully analysed, nor that every pet sorc is a problem. However when I ask friends, they will freely admit that pets are overtuned for PvP.

What gives me hope is that Gilliam the Rogue was hired by ZOS and is now working on combat balance. Hopefully he will be able to come up with subtle and appropriate solutions to problems, rather than the nerf-hammer approach. From my perspective, reverting the Crystal Frags damage nerf would probably be fine, as that is dodgeable and reflectable.

Let me put this another way. I basically run duelling builds in PvP. Not glass cannons, nor tanks, but builds that run half defensive skills and that have some combination of shields, resistances, crit resist and stamina sustain for block / break free / dodge roll. This means, when someone attacks me, even an NB ganker, I am usually able to play defensively for a short while, get my bearings, and see what the other player is about. This is true, even when the other player is wearing Imperial Physique, and I am not. A good pet sorc in Imperial Physique, however, is OP. They hit through block and shields so hard, they'll often kill you outright. This is not to say there isn't a percentage where other players might tank them, escape, or even win against them. It's just to say that this feels unbalanced.

This is funny when people speak about pet sorc, they always say stupitdities.

People find pet sorc being "OP" in duel but they don't understand what they are figthing.

Pet sorc in duel are duel builds. That's mean they run stats and skills that are literally impossible to run in cyrodil/battleground.

These duel build don't use streak for exemple, and these duel builds stack damage without having stamina sustain or good magicka sustain. Stack everything into damage and you will kill the ennemy before being OOM.

When people fight pet sorcs, they forget something : they are fighting with an openworld build a duel build. Of course they loose. An other factor is the rarity of the build, people doesn't know how it work and aren't used to fight them.

Pet sorc is OP ? Not at all, try to make a good 1vX build with your pet sorc, and when you will duel people, you will see it's strong but not "OP".

If you want to fight a dueling pet sorc, do it with a duel build, like dueling heavy armor bleedblade. You will see it's not "OP".

Also, anything in imperial physique vs non imperial physique seems OP.

Can you people use your brain a little ?

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2018

Aliyavana wrote: »

if hurricane could remove snares, that would help out stam sorcs tremendously as we are supposed to be THE mobile class. What this would do is remove us from relying on 2h for snare removal and would allow us for more build variety. The cost ofc would make us have to lose the dps we could have gained for leaving hurricane on longer but the snare removal would be a nice trade off

Nice idea with the dmg trade off. Either on hurricane/boundless or on streak, since it has a cost increase.

cpuScientist · July 2018

Aedaryl wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

As I have said, this is from a PvP perspective, NOT a trials perspective. Not everything is about trials! They are not the arbiter of what makes a class OP in other situations!

Not many people run pet sorcs in PvP, as far as I can see, but they are extremely hard to counter in a 1v1. One of my friends doesn't even accept duels from pet sorcs. Another friend is / was by far the strongest with a pet sorc, against me. These are people who, like me, are at least half decent at PvP. I have played the game for 3 years.

If I just weave my spammable on the target skeleton with my PvP builds, the damage I get is far, far lower than you are used to seeing in trials. Anything below 10K DPS is too low, anything above 12K DPS is entirely viable. If I get 13K, I am quite happy, and I know this can be a good PvP build. None of my PvP builds really go above that.

If you don't PvP and you have never done a raw damage test, but only full trial rotations on the target skeleton, you will not understand this. PvP is obviously about burst. I am not testing my burst on the skeleton though, cause it's very hard to measure that consistently. I test my spammable over a minute, or so, cause I get consistent numbers with that. Here's the kicker: When I just spam weave Crushing Shock on my pet sorc, I get 18K DPS. That's without Daedric Prey. That's without activating the pet after the initial burst, and only with the scamp, not the Twilight. That's with Crushing Shock having a mediocre tooltip in the mid-2000s, and only having around 40% crit. This test was, however, with Illambris.

You are going to rightfully say that I didn't even attempt to be scientific about that test and I particularly should try without Illambris. I found the 18K number shocking all the same, e.g. the ease with which it was achieved. The same was true when I took the sorc to the Skyreach Throne Room. If you don't know the place, you get waves of enemies that are somewhat dangerous (but not vMA level). I find it a good place to test DPS. If it is too low, you don't finish a wave before the next one. If it is high, you finish a wave well before the next one, and get time to recover resources. Pet sorc was ridiculously fast mowing through that on my first day with that character. I was completely uncoordinated and constantly pressing the wrong buttons while I was learning. Still I got through faster than on any other character. That's what was shocking.

Do people even use pet sorcs in trials? At any rate, I was asked what my pain points are, and this is one of them. I don't claim this is fully analysed, nor that every pet sorc is a problem. However when I ask friends, they will freely admit that pets are overtuned for PvP.

What gives me hope is that Gilliam the Rogue was hired by ZOS and is now working on combat balance. Hopefully he will be able to come up with subtle and appropriate solutions to problems, rather than the nerf-hammer approach. From my perspective, reverting the Crystal Frags damage nerf would probably be fine, as that is dodgeable and reflectable.

Let me put this another way. I basically run duelling builds in PvP. Not glass cannons, nor tanks, but builds that run half defensive skills and that have some combination of shields, resistances, crit resist and stamina sustain for block / break free / dodge roll. This means, when someone attacks me, even an NB ganker, I am usually able to play defensively for a short while, get my bearings, and see what the other player is about. This is true, even when the other player is wearing Imperial Physique, and I am not. A good pet sorc in Imperial Physique, however, is OP. They hit through block and shields so hard, they'll often kill you outright. This is not to say there isn't a percentage where other players might tank them, escape, or even win against them. It's just to say that this feels unbalanced.

fred4 wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I am mostly a PvPer. I don't play sorcs, so these will be my two pain points playing against them:
I tried a pet sorc in PvE with a non-optimized build and being completely uncoordinated / having no proper rotation. The damage output was ridiculously high compared to my other classes (see my sig). Of course, I am not speaking from a trials perspective, but from the perspective of someone running PvP builds.

How can you say this, when PvE magblades consistently beat sorcs at being a better sorc and deal 10K higher DPS than them? And PvE stamblades aren't that far from magblades.

World first trial kills (i.e. by Hodor) are achieved with 7 magblades and 1 sorc, only brought for buffs. And you want them nerfed, so next trial will be 8 magblades and ZERO of any other class?

As I have said, this is from a PvP perspective, NOT a trials perspective. Not everything is about trials! They are not the arbiter of what makes a class OP in other situations!

Not many people run pet sorcs in PvP, as far as I can see, but they are extremely hard to counter in a 1v1. One of my friends doesn't even accept duels from pet sorcs. Another friend is / was by far the strongest with a pet sorc, against me. These are people who, like me, are at least half decent at PvP. I have played the game for 3 years.

If I just weave my spammable on the target skeleton with my PvP builds, the damage I get is far, far lower than you are used to seeing in trials. Anything below 10K DPS is too low, anything above 12K DPS is entirely viable. If I get 13K, I am quite happy, and I know this can be a good PvP build. None of my PvP builds really go above that.

If you don't PvP and you have never done a raw damage test, but only full trial rotations on the target skeleton, you will not understand this. PvP is obviously about burst. I am not testing my burst on the skeleton though, cause it's very hard to measure that consistently. I test my spammable over a minute, or so, cause I get consistent numbers with that. Here's the kicker: When I just spam weave Crushing Shock on my pet sorc, I get 18K DPS. That's without Daedric Prey. That's without activating the pet after the initial burst, and only with the scamp, not the Twilight. That's with Crushing Shock having a mediocre tooltip in the mid-2000s, and only having around 40% crit. This test was, however, with Illambris.

You are going to rightfully say that I didn't even attempt to be scientific about that test and I particularly should try without Illambris. I found the 18K number shocking all the same, e.g. the ease with which it was achieved. The same was true when I took the sorc to the Skyreach Throne Room. If you don't know the place, you get waves of enemies that are somewhat dangerous (but not vMA level). I find it a good place to test DPS. If it is too low, you don't finish a wave before the next one. If it is high, you finish a wave well before the next one, and get time to recover resources. Pet sorc was ridiculously fast mowing through that on my first day with that character. I was completely uncoordinated and constantly pressing the wrong buttons while I was learning. Still I got through faster than on any other character. That's what was shocking.

Do people even use pet sorcs in trials? At any rate, I was asked what my pain points are, and this is one of them. I don't claim this is fully analysed, nor that every pet sorc is a problem. However when I ask friends, they will freely admit that pets are overtuned for PvP.

What gives me hope is that Gilliam the Rogue was hired by ZOS and is now working on combat balance. Hopefully he will be able to come up with subtle and appropriate solutions to problems, rather than the nerf-hammer approach. From my perspective, reverting the Crystal Frags damage nerf would probably be fine, as that is dodgeable and reflectable.

Let me put this another way. I basically run duelling builds in PvP. Not glass cannons, nor tanks, but builds that run half defensive skills and that have some combination of shields, resistances, crit resist and stamina sustain for block / break free / dodge roll. This means, when someone attacks me, even an NB ganker, I am usually able to play defensively for a short while, get my bearings, and see what the other player is about. This is true, even when the other player is wearing Imperial Physique, and I am not. A good pet sorc in Imperial Physique, however, is OP. They hit through block and shields so hard, they'll often kill you outright. This is not to say there isn't a percentage where other players might tank them, escape, or even win against them. It's just to say that this feels unbalanced.

This is funny when people speak about pet sorc, they always say stupitdities.

People find pet sorc being "OP" in duel but they don't understand what they are figthing.

Pet sorc in duel are duel builds. That's mean they run stats and skills that are literally impossible to run in cyrodil/battleground.

These duel build don't use streak for exemple, and these duel builds stack damage without having stamina sustain or good magicka sustain. Stack everything into damage and you will kill the ennemy before being OOM.

When people fight pet sorcs, they forget something : they are fighting with an openworld build a duel build. Of course they loose. An other factor is the rarity of the build, people doesn't know how it work and aren't used to fight them.

Pet sorc is OP ? Not at all, try to make a good 1vX build with your pet sorc, and when you will duel people, you will see it's strong but not "OP".

If you want to fight a dueling pet sorc, do it with a duel build, like dueling heavy armor bleedblade. You will see it's not "OP".

Also, anything in imperial physique vs non imperial physique seems OP.

Can you people use your brain a little ?

Yeah I agree. I mean you can do like blobs with his open world pet Sorc cheese. But it is only using pets as a glorified stun for overload. And, it will burst but barely worth it. And nearly impossible for beginner to intermediate sorcs to pull off regularly.

Pet Sorc is just bad. Bad in open world bad in end game bad bad BAD. Just food for duels and decent in IC and sewers.

cpuScientist · July 2018

MagSorc needs a sustain boost that is not too greatly beneficial in PvP. Something based around applying concussion maybe.

Bar space is and always will be terribad. Simply because of bound armor. Even if it is one slot only. Just having to slot 2 different mag buffs on front bar instead of an active skill will always limit magSorcs. It's why many drop damn execute even. It is so limiting, and plain not fun having 2 passive skills on your bar.

They are weak non sustainable magBlade in PvE. And only seen as amazing in PvP now because they were give a broken skill.

Kaartinen · July 2018

1) Pets are incompatible with various end game content; when you run without pets your DPS is significantly lower than MagNB, alongside poor sustain.

2) Needs an ability to break snares. The class feels like it should have a mobility niche, but then feels like the mobility has become too limited.

3) Single target DPS without a pet feels poor compared to some other options. Could use a class spammable skill to enhance these short comings.

Kayotic · July 2018

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Tremors · July 2018

I'd love to see overload addressed. Both morphs are pretty lackluster.

One morph could stay PVP orientated for the extra bar space and utility.

The other morph could still be an activation morph but charges your weapon with either shock or physical damage (whichever stat [stamina or magicka] is higher. This way when you're light attacking in PVE you receive a massive bonus damage for getting off light attacks. This would run down the same way overload works, e.g start with 500 ultimate, costs 20-25 per light attack fired = 20-25 light attacks to consume 500 ult.

Frags needs to be free to help sustain, closer to relentless focus but this has already been mentioned.

Vahrokh · July 2018

Kayotic wrote: »

Ya are we not gonna address that magicka sorcs are being excluded from end game content,?

Yeah. Most progression guilds demand absurd DPS parses nowadays (minimum 40-45k), which can be achieved by magblades and... that's it. Yes, there's the odd youtuber using 3M dummy, Lover stone, Zaan (!!!) and other cheese tricks that can achieve that damage, but that's an exercise of futility, no real guild lets you use cheese tricks in real content.

Stamina DPS? No, because in trials they are gimped.
Magicka? Only NBs because they set the standard.

Magsorcs? Used 1 out of 8 DPS for progression content. YAY!

Well, looking at the half full glass, in progression trials:

- 7 NBs
- 1 Magsorc
- 0 (DPS) Templar
- 0 (DPS) DK

So we should be "happier" than the last two...