WW LA (Normalized) ... WW Feedback Thread

Avran_Sylt

Aznox wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

You think now that bound armament is reworked, the skill can be slotted as a WW and the 8% max stam can be active ? I haven't tested, but it's definitively worth testing.

It was never possible to slot any ability other than a werewolf ability on a werewolf bar and this has not changed.

@RoyJade

Yep, WW is essentially a 'pocket class'
Self-contained, apart from being able to use the passives from your main class.

Qbiken

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

The light attacks aren't "broken". They've just been standardized. Not sure if that should be the case, as while in WW form the Light attacks are essentially your spammable (with no cost).

The 50% buff has at for the most part placated people, but as it stands now, it allows a build that has more of a resource pool/sustain to perform more comparably damage wise in comparison to a build that sacrifices the resource pool for damage. IMO, this isn't very well balanced as while the Damage build trades sustain for burst, the resource sustain build has similar damage. Hence my assumption that it is a band-aid fix.

They should in no way have the increased stamina ratio in tandem with the increased WD scaling, unless WW light attacks also were accompanied by a nerf to light attacks, as that would make them a bit to overpowered.

The bolded part is what I´d hoped (and kind of had expected) to happen, since non-werewolfs are accompanied by the new changes this way. A small tweak to the damage to werewolfs light attack would´ve a good way to compensate to prevent them from being too strong.

RoyJade

Aznox wrote: »

It was never possible to slot any ability other than a werewolf ability on a werewolf bar and this has not changed.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Yep, WW is essentially a 'pocket class'
Self-contained, apart from being able to use the passives from your main class.

That was what I remembered, thanks for confirming that is still the case.
And so, stamsorc has no stamina pool advantage over other classes, as before.

jediprime74

Qbiken wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

The light attacks aren't "broken". They've just been standardized. Not sure if that should be the case, as while in WW form the Light attacks are essentially your spammable (with no cost).

The 50% buff has at for the most part placated people, but as it stands now, it allows a build that has more of a resource pool/sustain to perform more comparably damage wise in comparison to a build that sacrifices the resource pool for damage. IMO, this isn't very well balanced as while the Damage build trades sustain for burst, the resource sustain build has similar damage. Hence my assumption that it is a band-aid fix.

They should in no way have the increased stamina ratio in tandem with the increased WD scaling, unless WW light attacks also were accompanied by a nerf to light attacks, as that would make them a bit to overpowered.

The bolded part is what I´d hoped (and kind of had expected) to happen, since non-werewolfs are accompanied by the new changes this way. A small tweak to the damage to werewolfs light attack would´ve a good way to compensate to prevent them from being too strong.

Well, here's the thing: Werewolves had a substantially stronger LA/HA than non-Werewolves. The adjustments/buffs to LAs/HAs for everyone has narrowed the gap between Werewolf attacks and non-Werewolf attacks. I am not asking for a huge buff, just something that keeps the damage gap the same, rather than decreased. That's all, nothing else.

Qbiken

jediprime74 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

The light attacks aren't "broken". They've just been standardized. Not sure if that should be the case, as while in WW form the Light attacks are essentially your spammable (with no cost).

The 50% buff has at for the most part placated people, but as it stands now, it allows a build that has more of a resource pool/sustain to perform more comparably damage wise in comparison to a build that sacrifices the resource pool for damage. IMO, this isn't very well balanced as while the Damage build trades sustain for burst, the resource sustain build has similar damage. Hence my assumption that it is a band-aid fix.

They should in no way have the increased stamina ratio in tandem with the increased WD scaling, unless WW light attacks also were accompanied by a nerf to light attacks, as that would make them a bit to overpowered.

The bolded part is what I´d hoped (and kind of had expected) to happen, since non-werewolfs are accompanied by the new changes this way. A small tweak to the damage to werewolfs light attack would´ve a good way to compensate to prevent them from being too strong.

Well, here's the thing: Werewolves had a substantially stronger LA/HA than non-Werewolves. The adjustments/buffs to LAs/HAs for everyone has narrowed the gap between Werewolf attacks and non-Werewolf attacks. I am not asking for a huge buff, just something that keeps the damage gap the same, rather than decreased. That's all, nothing else.

I think we´re asking/wanting the same thing but express it with different words

I just want consistency. If non werewolf gets a X% boost to their LA/HA compared to live, werewolfs should also have a X% boost to their LA/HA compared to live, it´s really that "simple"

Avran_Sylt

@Qbiken

Yo, what we could do (I'm busy most of the day today, so essentially I'm asking anyone else to do this), is combine the Damage Ratios for Weapon Damage (Live) and Stamina (PTS) and figure out what % damage reduction would be needed to bring WW LA in line with their Live damage with the new stamina scaling ratio if the Live WD ratio were to be kept.

(Live)
Find a Target Dummy, craft a lvl 1 DW set and a 2H set, look at your WD values, attack the dummy from each weapon set while in WW and record the damage done. Change in Damage/Change in Weapon Damage to get the Live WD Ratio.

(PTS & Live)
Then, craft a CP160 piece of armor and a Stamina and Magicka enchantment, slot that on your character, enchant it with Stamina first, note the stamina, attack the target in WW, record the damage, then repeat after enchanting it with magicka.
Change in damage/Change in Stamina to get the Stamina Ratio.

With those ratios, plug in an arbitrary combination of WD/Stam and compare LiveWD+PTSStam with LiveWD+LiveStam and figure out the % reduction needed to achieve LiveWD+PTSStam = LiveWD+LiveStam

If so desired, a buff can be considered.

@ZOS_Wrobel , If by chance you'd be able to supply us with those Live ratios in your spare time, that'd be awesome.

Aznox

Qbiken wrote: »

I just want consistency. If non werewolf gets a X% boost to their LA/HA compared to live, werewolfs should also have a X% boost to their LA/HA compared to live, it´s really that "simple"

And i think we all agree on that. Werewolf doesn't need a buff relative to all other classes, it just needs to get the same treatment and not be left behind.

"Problem" (again, not the end of Tamriel) is that a werewolf that was stacking Max stamina (let's say Hulk Draugr) on live DOES get a small buff to LA/HA compared to Live, BUT a Weapon Damage build that was focusing on light/heavy attacks gets a small nerf.

To me the solution would be to increase just a bit more (for example, make the "50%" a "55%") so that a weapon damage focused build would not get a nerf from live.

I will perform more test tonight to suggest a realistic value.

Skullstachio

Just a heads up folks, The pts patch notes below this sentence mention that werewolves got a 50% Buff to their Light & Heavy attacks to compensate for the Light/Heavy Attack changes, they also "fixed" an issue that had something to do with Werewolf transformation & pack leader applying two bleed DoT's when using light attacks. (I honestly have no idea what that last part meant but in a way, my gut tells me it can't be good, can somebody on the PTS confirm this?)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/412523/pts-patch-notes-v4-0-4/p1

Aznox

Thank you for your good intent @Alpha-Lupi but we are all well aware of it already, this thread IS what lead to this part of the patchnote

(and we are now testing/validating the results)

Skullstachio

Aznox wrote: »

Thank you for your good intent @Alpha-Lupi but we are all well aware of it already, this thread IS what lead to this part of the patchnote

(and we are now testing/validating the results)

Just one thing to point out though, if people said that a werewolves light attack was "accidentally" reduced by 40% because of a bug, & that said bug got fixed by buffing Werewolf LA/HA by 50%, wouldn't that technically be considered an overall 10% buff to LA/HA in the long run? (if you get what I mean.)

Long story short: one pts patch note is released & a bug surfaces which reduces WW LA by 40%, the bug then gets fixed in PTS patch V4.0.4 by increasing WW LA/HA by 50% = the 40% damage reduction is counteracted & WW LA/HA gets an additional 10% increase on top of the bug that was squashed.)

Aznox

Good point :

100 - 40% = 60
60 + 50% = 90



But outside of this i would not focus too much on the 50% number, it's just something the dev communicated to Gina to give us a rough estimate of what has been done.

jediprime74

Aznox wrote: »

Good point :

100 - 40% = 60
60 + 50% = 90



But outside of this i would not focus too much on the 50% number, it's just something the dev communicated to Gina to give us a rough estimate of what has been done.

THIS! This is the problem. What bizarre world did we fall into that a reduction is a buff? As I keep saying, it makes no sense whatsoever and only serves to make Werewolves a less attractive option, even for PvP which is pretty much the only place Werewolves are considered viable.

Aznox

Keep cool, the change is much more complex than that and cannot be simplified into adding or removing % to a single variable.

Everything so far makes perfect sense, it's just a matter of finding a fair number that neither buff nor nerf the average competitive werewolf build.

We are on it

Wuuffyy

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Just a heads up folks, The pts patch notes below this sentence mention that werewolves got a 50% Buff to their Light & Heavy attacks to compensate for the Light/Heavy Attack changes, they also "fixed" an issue that had something to do with Werewolf transformation & pack leader applying two bleed DoT's when using light attacks. (I honestly have no idea what that last part meant but in a way, my gut tells me it can't be good, can somebody on the PTS confirm this?)

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/412523/pts-patch-notes-v4-0-4/p1

Some guy reported that the base morph and pack morph were applying the normal bleed an the berserker bleed on top of that.

Ertthewolf

I already have my new build figured out. It will still tear apart and *** off overly cocky players in pvp, as well as clear any pve content they try and throw at me. Keep your heads up guys, wolf ain't going anywhere. Just change it up a bit.

Ritter

@Ertthewolf Go on.... lol

I'm looking forward to trying Shacklebreaker + Pelinal's myself.

Aznox

Here are my latest results, for the comparison of light and heavy attack damage between Live and PTS 4.0.4, using what i think is currently the most competitive PvP werewolf build.

LIVE

Werewolf Light attack highest crit : 11741

Werewolf Heavy attack highest crit : 18299

PTS 4.0.4

Werewolf Light attack highest crit : 11085 (-5.59% vs Live)

Werewolf Heavy attack highest crit : 17444 (-4.67% vs Live)

Now lets trade 517 raw weapon damage (and some crit chance) for 4623 raw max stamina to see if we can get better results using the new scaling :

Werewolf Light attack highest crit : 11029 (-6.06% vs Live)

Werewolf Heavy attack highest crit : 17354 (-5.16% vs Live)

Conclusions

• Nothing seems broken, Tamriel isn't doomed, werewolves wont go extinct
• It is a bit sad for the change to result in a negative variation, but the amount is nearly negligible
• Currently strictly inferior to weapon damage, stacking max stamina will be a viable choice in Summerset
• The gain/loss of viability for werewolf in competitive PvP in Summerset will be determined by other factors than light and heavy attack damage

Avran_Sylt

@Aznox

To build off of that:

Live WW Light Attack scaling:
100% of Weapon Damage is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.
4% of Stamina is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.

PTS WW LA scaling:
63% of Weapon Damage is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.
6% of Stamina is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.

(Sidenote: noted that the bonus stamina you get in WW is a 30% max Stamina bonus)

Xvorg

RouDeR wrote: »

Stop using those trash addons , go to overland and test ur light Attacks on a world boss or some monster using the ingame Combat Text

?

The bitter is strong in this one

Xvorg

Qbiken wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

I don't know the exact ratios, but this is the gist of it:

Live WW has more disparity between WD and Stam. something like a 60:10 ratio, because weapon damage had an extra bonus when calculated into WW Light attacks.

Ex:
WD = 1 WD : 1.5 Damage
Stam = 40[ Stam : 1 Damage

When they changed it the first time they "brought it in line" with other light attacks by simply copy and pasting whatever information was with the new values (from some other weapons class), over the old values.

WD = 1 WD : 1 Damage
Stam = 10.5 Stam : 1 Damage

The Stam ratio got buffed, but the WD ratio got accidentally 'nerfed' by having the unique scaling overwritten with the new scaling.

This new scaling/value is what got the 50% buff in 4.0.4

The unique Weapon Damage scaling is gone, and as a result of the Damage Buff, Werewolves that have more stamina will see a Damage increase, and Werewolves that have more Weapon Damage will see a Damage decrease (looking like a very little decrease at that)

Not sure if this is just a Band-aid fix and will be addressed in the future, or just be left alone.

That's all I know so far.

Ah, I see. So we don't yet know if this is intentional or, as you said, a Band-Aid.

If I understand it correctly, you believe the 50% buff was applied to the broken PTS version, rather than the live version? It seems to me that is NOT a 50% buff if we were starting at -40% to begin with. Most unsatisfactory.

Excellent and informative post, thank you!

Keep in mind where that 50% figure came from. It was in Gina's reply specifically to a complaint about the early LA PTS values. She said the values are bugged, and we'll see a 50% increase(over those values) next patch. She never implied a 50% increase over live.

Besides, if ZOS increased my live WW's LA damage by 50%, everyone else could just pack their things and leave

I still find it weird that instead of fixing bugged values, you boost the bugged values in order to try making them on par with other changes. The 50% buff to bugged values feels very much like a Band-Aid fix, and since the damage values to the light attacks are very similar to live ,WW´s barely benefits from the new changes......

At least I´ve got jewellery crafting going for me next patch.......

spaghetti code... that's all.

I do believe they will need an entire patch just to fix things like that, instead of "balancing" things on the run. I hope they keep PTS working in the meantime

Avran_Sylt

On Live, a 31,000 Stamina 6,000 WD Werewolf will hit for
7,240

On PTS,they will hit for
5,640 (33% nerf)

A Live 45,000 Stamina 3,500 WD werewolf will hit for
5,300

On PTS they will hit for
4,905 (7.5% nerf)

This is why we saw a varying number of 'nerfs' when it first got changed.

And this is also why there was a varying range of buffs/minor nerfs with the most recent update.

If the 100% WD scaling was kept, as well as the new 6% Stamina scaling:

On Live, a 31,000 Stamina 6,000 WD Werewolf will hit for
7,240

A mixed WW will hit for
7,860 (8.5% buff)

A Live 45,000 Stamina 3,500 WD werewolf will hit for
5,300

A Mixed WW will hit for
6,200 (17% buff)

@Qbiken @Aznox

So I would have assumed the new Stamina scaling to be raised from 4% to 6%, and the new WW light attacks to get an 8.5% reduction in damage.

But instead the WW light attacks got changed to the standard ability scaling, nerfed, then buffed, to come out at a point where stacking WD is about the same, and you get less of a penalty for stacking stamina compared to WD. (Hello Bone Pirate).

Outdated/Misinformed

Xvorg

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Yep, WW is essentially a 'pocket class'
Self-contained, apart from being able to use the passives from your main class.

That was what I remembered, thanks for confirming that is still the case.
And so, stamsorc has no stamina pool advantage over other classes, as before. [/quote]

Yup, otherwise give me swallow soul on my WW to get 8% extra healing received (and 3% extra healing done and 8% extra magicka)

Aznox

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Aznox

To build off of that:

Live WW Light Attack scaling:
100% of Weapon Damage is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.
4% of Stamina is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.

PTS WW LA scaling:
63% of Weapon Damage is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.
6% of Stamina is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.

(Sidenote: noted that the bonus stamina you get in WW is a 30% max Stamina bonus)

Feels a bit off sorry, take the values from my 1st and 3rd screenshots :
In cmx you can see :
- Max stamina : 41000
- Max weapon damage : 5371 (4793 + buffed automaton 5pc)

taking your scaling :

Live
0.04*41000=1640
1*5371=5371
Total = 7011

PTS
0.06*41000=2460
0.63*5371= 3383
total = 5843

now we need to add :
crit bonus (0.59)
physical weapon expert CP (0.28)
master at arms CP (0.17)
mighty CP (0.08)


Live
7011*(1+0,28+0,17+0,08)*1,59 = 17055

PTS
5843*(1+0,28+0,17+0,08)*1,59 = 14214

One of these could work adding skeleton's remaining armor, but that's clearly more spread that what i get in-game.

Avran_Sylt

@Aznox

Target skelly has 18,200 Physical resistance, or about 36% mitigation. (Since mobs are different than players in that 500 armor mitigates 1% instead of 660 Armor, unless that's changed, in which case my calculations are off).

17,055 * 0.64 = 10,915

Which is in line with your results on live.

Ertthewolf

Werewolf + Imperial or Redguard will work great this patch. Since werewolves get a better return percentage wise, per stam point then weapon damage, you will be able to achieve high resource pools.

Skullstachio

Ertthewolf wrote: »

Werewolf + Imperial or Redguard will work great this patch. Since werewolves get a better return percentage wise, per stam point then weapon damage, you will be able to achieve high resource pools.

Don't forget orcs, their stamina may not be as great, but their added 4% melee damage really pulls through in combination with the added stamina for werewolves.

Aznox wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Aznox

To build off of that:

Live WW Light Attack scaling:
100% of Weapon Damage is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.
4% of Stamina is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.

PTS WW LA scaling:
63% of Weapon Damage is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.
6% of Stamina is converted into Light Attack raw Damage.

(Sidenote: noted that the bonus stamina you get in WW is a 30% max Stamina bonus)

Feels a bit off sorry, take the values from my 1st and 3rd screenshots :
In cmx you can see :
- Max stamina : 41000
- Max weapon damage : 5371 (4793 + buffed automaton 5pc)

taking your scaling :

Live
0.04*41000=1640
1*5371=5371
Total = 7011

PTS
0.06*41000=2460
0.63*5371= 3383
total = 5843

now we need to add :
crit bonus (0.59)
physical weapon expert CP (0.28)
master at arms CP (0.17)
mighty CP (0.08)


Live
7011*(1+0,28+0,17+0,08)*1,59 = 17055

PTS
5843*(1+0,28+0,17+0,08)*1,59 = 14214

One of these could work adding skeleton's remaining armor, but that's clearly more spread that what i get in-game.

Don't those results usually differ from race to race? (Try those results in combination with imperials, red guards or (my personal favourite) Orcs. (Counting the 4% melee damage from swift warrior in combination.)

RoyJade

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Don't forget orcs, their stamina may not be as great, but their added 4% melee damage really pulls through in combination with the added stamina for werewolves.

Don't those results usually differ from race to race? (Try those results in combination with imperials, red guards or (my personal favourite) Orcs. (Counting the 4% melee damage from swift warrior in combination.)

Don't put too much faith on orsimer's 4% melee damage bonus. It's also one of my favorite race, but the 4% buff only apply to a fraction of their damage (bleed, claw dot and roar don't benefit from it), and it work additionally with all multiplier (mainly cp and sorc passive) which reduce his effect. Redguard and imperial will do more damage.
But on an utility/survivability point, with the max health bonus, the 5% more heal received, the health regen bonus (for trollking build) and the sprint cost reduction + movement buff, it's a pretty solid race for a werewolf.

Emma_Overload

Aznox wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

You think now that bound armament is reworked, the skill can be slotted as a WW and the 8% max stam can be active ? I haven't tested, but it's definitively worth testing.

It was never possible to slot any ability other than a werewolf ability on a werewolf bar and this has not changed.

That's interesting. I always assumed that if you had it slotted on the same bar as your WW ultimate, the buff would carry over when you transformed to WW. Bummer if it doesn't.

Qbiken

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

You think now that bound armament is reworked, the skill can be slotted as a WW and the 8% max stam can be active ? I haven't tested, but it's definitively worth testing.

It was never possible to slot any ability other than a werewolf ability on a werewolf bar and this has not changed.

That's interesting. I always assumed that if you had it slotted on the same bar as your WW ultimate, the buff would carry over when you transformed to WW. Bummer if it doesn't.

There was an old bug that used to work that way. If you had Fighter´s guild abilities slotted on your WW-bar the extra weapon damage from the FG´s passive would carry over to WW-form. Not sure when it got fixed but it doesn´t work anymore :P



Thank you @Avran_Sylt and @Aznox for the further testing. But the fact still remains that werewolfs does not benefit the same way non-werewolfs benefit from the new changes to light and heavy attacks (the lack of consistency bothers me).From what I could see from Aznox´s screenshots WW`s do less damage with LA/HA compared to live. I hope the developers sees the work you (and everyone else) has done, at least these threads shows that there is an interest in werewolfs still

And when Bonepirate get its bugs fixed it might become a very viable option (on live I´m not a huge fan of BP on werewolf).

Aznox

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Aznox

Target skelly has 18,200 Physical resistance, or about 36% mitigation. (Since mobs are different than players in that 500 armor mitigates 1% instead of 660 Armor, unless that's changed, in which case my calculations are off).

17,055 * 0.64 = 10,915

Which is in line with your results on live.

Yes but your PTS formula gives a 16,6% decrease which is not in line with my results.