WW LA (Normalized) ... WW Feedback Thread

Avran_Sylt

A mostly Min/Maxed WW on Live:

vs. PTS (4.0.3):

The bleed stays about the same.

Assuming this is working as intended, how will this impact your builds, for those of you that use WW.

Has been Buffed (patch notes) by 50% as of 4.0.4

Has been buffed to the higher damage state it has previously been at. However, now there is less of a difference between choosing stamina or Weapon Damage in terms of having High Light Attack Damage.

Originally a Thread concerning the WW Light Attack. It has morphed into a general WW Thread since the 4.0.4 patch.
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Aliyavana

They don't care for WWs

DocFrost72

"We want to reinforce that light attacks are for damage".

Koolio

Great exactly what WW needed.

I thought Light Attacks were for Damage.

Koolio

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Is this intended?

Emma_Overload

Werewolf was always ridiculously overpowered.

Koolio

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Werewolf was always ridiculously overpowered.

That’s why they are required in All Endgame and PVP content.

Minalan

That’s a bug, report it. Light attacks were only supposed to receive a 20% nerf in the damage calculations.

They broke something.

Avran_Sylt

@Minalan

I have, but unfortunately I don't think it is a bug.

"Fixed an issue where Werewolf and Unarmed Light and Heavy Attack scaling ratios were not adjusted to match normal ability scaling ratios."

WW LA had increased scaling with WD compared to other light attacks. Now it has been homogenized to be like every other weapon attack scaling. (Much like how 2H LA was nerfed)

This change falls in line with that statement.

Unless, of course, whoever changed the code literally just copy/pasted from the DW code (removing the increased WD scaling). In which case, this was an oversight.

RoyJade

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

General

• Fixed an issue where Werewolf and Unarmed Light and Heavy Attack scaling ratios were not adjusted to match normal ability scaling ratios.

I'm pretty sure they broke something with that.
I'll do some test later if I can, I have some ideas about what can be broken.

Qbiken

@Aznox
Do the math

Something feels really off. Even with a reduced LA damage by 20%, WW´s should do more damage with their light attacks due to the new scaling.

Avran_Sylt

@RoyJade
I'm fairly certain they overwrote the additional Weapon Damage Scaling that WW Light Attacks had.

Qbiken

Aznox wrote: »

Ok i've run some quick math to know where such a change would get us with our LA/HA damage ...

... and it's seems maybe too big of a change for them to only change the ratio, they would probably tune down the coef too because a 42% increase (value for my example werewolf build, it would be around 100% for a petsorc build ...) would have a very big impact on the overall game balance.

Aznox posted this in the WW-theorycrafting thread. I thought I´d post this here if it would help.

RoyJade

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@RoyJade

I'm fairly certain they overwrote the additional Weapon Damage Scaling that WW Light Attacks had.

That's the most probable issue indeed.
Other are some source of weapon damage or stamina aren't taken in account, or a mess with CP, passives and other bonuses.

Avran_Sylt

@RoyJade

Kenna, Elegance, and WD weapon enchant all properly effect the WW LA. Haven't tested CP though. Player Stamina is also considered at the new 10.5 ratio (seems to be). Also appears to properly interact with CP%

RoyJade

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@RoyJade

Kenna, Elegance, and WD weapon enchant all properly effect the WW LA. Haven't tested CP though. Player Stamina is also considered at the new 10.5 ratio (seems to be).

Thanks for the test ! I'll take them in account

Aznox

They probably broke something by mistake.

First they changed LA/HA scaling ratio so that Max resource counts for as much as weapon/spell damage.
They probably did this to get rid of the "special case" that LA/HA scaling was. (i though it added depth to theorycafting but ... whatever)

But - as predicted- the general increase of LA/HA damage was too much (+30/+100% depending on classes/specs, not counting empower being moved to light attacks), so they did a general -20% today to keep things reasonable.

So far nothing werewolf specific.

Following @Avran_Sylt bug report

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

WW Light Attacks have not been scaled to the new Stamina ratio.

Live:

PTS:

they tried to port the new ratio to werewolf LA/HA, nothing more nothing less, according to the wording :

Fixed an issue where Werewolf and Unarmed Light and Heavy Attack scaling ratios were not adjusted to match normal ability scaling ratios.

And there, something went wrong, because the result for werewolf should be the same as for everyone : somewhere between 10-30% buff to LA after all changes calculated. (except magicka stacking setup that get a much bigger boost compared to live)

At this point i would not worry too much, ZoS showed by acting on Werewolf LA/HA (even if late) that they saw our bug reports. They still have time to fix this before Summerset goes live.


As for OP's question, if Summerset was to go live with 50% nerf on werewolf LA, well we would only see a the amount of competitive players using werewolf in PvP go from 1% to 0,5% ... (PvE is already at 0%, no harm here)

Aznox

Also @Avran_Sylt i would like to thank you for the time you spend doing testing and reporting for werewolf, i play on EU and i don't have the courage to spend hours recreating my live build on the PTS with the exactitude needed to perform those tests ...

NyassaV

The attacks are powerful enough, I'm happy with this change

RoyJade

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I'm fairly certain they overwrote the additional Weapon Damage Scaling that WW Light Attacks had.

So, after some test I can confirm that. On a totally naked character (no cp, equipment, passives and only enough attribute outside of WW form to match the 0 attribute stamina of the WW form (10345 stamina in WW, tried 10289 and 10400 stam outside of WW), the damage of the light attack are exactly the same.
When I used a single handed gold weapon with no enchant 1335 (weapon damage in and out WW), the result were coherent with this conclusion.

For the actual numbers(non crit-crit) :

Bare fist

Humain, 10289 (10400) stamina :
Light : 295-443 (299-448)
Heavy : 459-689 (464-697)

Werewolf, 10345 stamina :
Light : 297-445
Heavy : 475-712 + 237-356 cleave damage

One handed

Humain, 10289 (10400) stamina :
Light : 697-1046 (701-1051)
Heavy : 1085-1628 (1090-1636)

Werewolf, 10345 stamina :
Light : 699-1048
Heavy : 1108-1678 + 559-838 cleave damage

Ladislao

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Assuming this is working as intended, how will this impact your builds, for those of you that use WW.

No way. I don't focus on light/heavy attacks alone.
And this is clearly not intended.

Qbiken

NyassaV wrote: »

The attacks are powerful enough, I'm happy with this change

So you're happy with classes and skills being bugged and mechanics not working as intended?

Aznox

Don't loose your time @Qbiken , she has been opening one "Nerf Stamina !" thread per day for the past week.
Not worth anything but an ignore list.

Aliyavana

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

The attacks are powerful enough, I'm happy with this change

So you're happy with classes and skills being bugged and mechanics not working as intended?

I wouldn't care for her comments, after many biased threads and comments against stamina

Cronopoly

RoyJade wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I'm fairly certain they overwrote the additional Weapon Damage Scaling that WW Light Attacks had.

So, after some test I can confirm that. On a totally naked character (no cp, equipment, passives and only enough attribute outside of WW form to match the 0 attribute stamina of the WW form (10345 stamina in WW, tried 10289 and 10400 stam outside of WW), the damage of the light attack are exactly the same.
When I used a single handed gold weapon with no enchant 1335 (weapon damage in and out WW), the result were coherent with this conclusion.

For the actual numbers(non crit-crit) :

Bare fist

Humain, 10289 (10400) stamina :
Light : 295-443 (299-448)
Heavy : 459-689 (464-697)

Werewolf, 10345 stamina :
Light : 297-445
Heavy : 475-712 + 237-356 cleave damage

One handed

Humain, 10289 (10400) stamina :
Light : 697-1046 (701-1051)
Heavy : 1085-1628 (1090-1636)

Werewolf, 10345 stamina :
Light : 699-1048
Heavy : 1108-1678 + 559-838 cleave damage

What the heck happened? WW basically neutered to NO DAMAGE BONUS at all? I know they have the passive Savage Strength for (2/2) 18% more Weapon Damage. More testing is needed with this passive on and off....

Of course if neutered in damage we might as well have Werewolf made a permanent Vanity Crown store morph, oh wait.... it might already be there if this proves true and goes live...

It's already so niche as is and the wide gulf of usefulness compared to the powerful Vamp passives as is. Again I gotta log into PTS...

RouDeR

Bare in mind that Unchained is broken for WW since almost a year , Pack leader is broken since day 1 so they will probably let that go too .
The only purpose that WW will serve in PvP is for Tanking/CC and AoE defile builds .
Well at least Bless Online is comming next Month so ....

reprosal

Aliyavana wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

The attacks are powerful enough, I'm happy with this change

So you're happy with classes and skills being bugged and mechanics not working as intended?

I wouldn't care for her comments, after many biased threads and comments against stamina

Listening to their youtube videos, pretty sure it's a guy.

usmcjdking

lmao

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Werewolf was always ridiculously overpowered.

Like, how can people actually agree with this comment when I can go a straight week without ever seeing another WW in PVP.

WW isn't OP you are *** bad.

mb10

Whoever is in charge of combat changes at ZOS honestly is quite bad at what they do.

No personal offence ofc but the changes made are disliked by 90% of the community, ALL. THE. TIME.

Maybe the changes made should be these people and not light attacks lol and other combat changes.

Reverb

They ran some stats and realized that some people are still not vamps. So they decided to fix that.

dsalter

tbh i'd be fine with werewolves having weaker LA direct hits if the bleed was faster, always felt werewolf was about pressure