WW LA (Normalized) ... WW Feedback Thread

RouDeR

LIVE vs PTS Same character Without any addons , just the regular combat text


LIVE - Light Attack - 4007 / 6210 crit

PTS - 4871 / 7550 crit

HOWERVER , on PTS In WW form my Character has 38943 Stam , compared to Live 37652 stam , SO it is something wrong don't know if it is intended buff or not

Wuuffyy

RouDeR wrote: »

LIVE vs PTS Same character Without any addons , just the regular combat text


LIVE - Light Attack - 4007 / 6210 crit

PTS - 4871 / 7550 crit

HOWERVER , on PTS In WW form my Character has 38943 Stam , compared to Live 37652 stam , SO it is something wrong don't know if it is intended buff or not

Stop please. Why r u complaining? Op please like close this thread.

RouDeR

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

LIVE vs PTS Same character Without any addons , just the regular combat text


LIVE - Light Attack - 4007 / 6210 crit

PTS - 4871 / 7550 crit

HOWERVER , on PTS In WW form my Character has 38943 Stam , compared to Live 37652 stam , SO it is something wrong don't know if it is intended buff or not

Stop please. Why r u complaining? Op please like close this thread.

I just realized that they changed the 2hnd weapons to count as 2 pieces, will run the test again with non set weapon xD

JPcrazysquirrel3

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

LIVE vs PTS Same character Without any addons , just the regular combat text


LIVE - Light Attack - 4007 / 6210 crit

PTS - 4871 / 7550 crit

HOWERVER , on PTS In WW form my Character has 38943 Stam , compared to Live 37652 stam , SO it is something wrong don't know if it is intended buff or not

Stop please. Why r u complaining? Op please like close this thread.

He wasn't complaining, he was stating his findings in testing this issue. This is PTS, the point is to test changes.

If you want complaining, there are plenty of whiny QQ threads calling for nerfs left and right. Go read those.

RoyJade

RouDeR wrote: »

I just realized that they changed the 2hnd weapons to count as 2 pieces, will run the test again with non set weapon xD

If you can, try to test the difference between live and pts damage in human form, in order to see if you have the same overall increase

jediprime74

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Live : Max crit = 9845

OLD PTS : Max crit = 6525

NEW PTS : Max crit = 9787

I'm a bit disappointed that we seem to be the only ones to not get a small boost but lets say the worse has been avoided.
Will do more testing when possible.

Assuming your numbers are accurate it would seem that WW is still nerfed compared to live. I cannot believe this was the desired result of a 50% buff. Makes no sense.

By 60 dmg. Please be quiet before they end on copying the fighters guild skill line over the werewolf skill line by accident and then we have no more werewolf. Please and thank you!

It's the apocalypse! Werewolf light attacks are now Dawnbreakers of Smiting....

Wuuffyy

jediprime74 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Live : Max crit = 9845

OLD PTS : Max crit = 6525

NEW PTS : Max crit = 9787

I'm a bit disappointed that we seem to be the only ones to not get a small boost but lets say the worse has been avoided.
Will do more testing when possible.

Assuming your numbers are accurate it would seem that WW is still nerfed compared to live. I cannot believe this was the desired result of a 50% buff. Makes no sense.

By 60 dmg. Please be quiet before they end on copying the fighters guild skill line over the werewolf skill line by accident and then we have no more werewolf. Please and thank you!

It's the apocalypse! Werewolf light attacks are now Dawnbreakers of Smiting....

Lol right?! No but I don’t care if it’s a slight buff or a slight debuff. As long as it’s not an egregious nerf or buff.......

RouDeR

SO my final and 100% accurate test numbers are :

Live
Light attack : 3729 none crit / 5779 crit
Bleed : 2818 non crit / 4368 crit



PTS
Light attack : 4358 non crit / 6755 crit
Bleed : 2815 non crit /4363 crit



In the end we get around 14% Damage increase on our light attacks , which is AWESOME !

Wuuffyy

RouDeR wrote: »

SO my final and 100% accurate test numbers are :

Live
Light attack : 3729 none crit / 5779 crit
Bleed : 2818 non crit / 4368 crit



PTS
Light attack : 4358 non crit / 6755 crit
Bleed : 2815 non crit /4363 crit

Not that it matters but why did your bleed go down?

RouDeR

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

RouDeR wrote: »

SO my final and 100% accurate test numbers are :

Live
Light attack : 3729 none crit / 5779 crit
Bleed : 2818 non crit / 4368 crit



PTS
Light attack : 4358 non crit / 6755 crit
Bleed : 2815 non crit /4363 crit

Not that it matters but why did your bleed go down?

I honestly don't know , my weapon damage / stamina / CP are the same , probably something to do with the recent Bleed bug Fix on the PTS , they probably adjusted some numbers but the diference is not significant its like 0.1%

Aznox

After more in-depth tests i think i can give my preliminary conclusion :

New werewolf is a buff* compared to live if you were using an inferior build like hulking draugr instead of automaton.
*(or a no-change relative to all other setups who got a similar buff)

New werewolf is the same* compared to live if you were using the optimum weapon damage sets.
*(or a nerf relative to all other setups who got a buff)

jediprime74

Do we know exactly how ww light attack damage is calculated? (I don't)

If so, can we break it down to see exactly what got a '50% buff?' I am very curious about this, because what we got is nowhere near a 50% buff from what you guys are posting. (Thank you very much for doing the yeoman's work with the testing, by the way! Console players like me would be lost without you guys posting your parses!)

Avran_Sylt

@jediprime74

I don't know the exact ratios, but this is the gist of it:

Live WW has more disparity between WD and Stam. something like a 60:10 ratio, because weapon damage had an extra bonus when calculated into WW Light attacks.

Ex:
WD = 1 WD : 1.5 Damage
Stam = 40[ Stam : 1 Damage

When they changed it the first time they "brought it in line" with other light attacks by simply copy and pasting whatever information was with the new values (from some other weapons class), over the old values.

WD = 1 WD : 1 Damage
Stam = 10.5 Stam : 1 Damage

The Stam ratio got buffed, but the WD ratio got accidentally 'nerfed' by having the unique scaling overwritten with the new scaling.

This new scaling/value is what got the 50% buff in 4.0.4

The unique Weapon Damage scaling is gone, and as a result of the Damage Buff, Werewolves that have more stamina will see a Damage increase, and Werewolves that have more Weapon Damage will see a Damage decrease (looking like a very little decrease at that)

Not sure if this is just a Band-aid fix and will be addressed in the future, or just be left alone.

That's all I know so far.

jediprime74

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

I don't know the exact ratios, but this is the gist of it:

Live WW has more disparity between WD and Stam. something like a 60:10 ratio, because weapon damage had an extra bonus when calculated into WW Light attacks.

Ex:
WD = 1 WD : 1.5 Damage
Stam = 40[ Stam : 1 Damage

When they changed it the first time they "brought it in line" with other light attacks by simply copy and pasting whatever information was with the new values (from some other weapons class), over the old values.

WD = 1 WD : 1 Damage
Stam = 10.5 Stam : 1 Damage

The Stam ratio got buffed, but the WD ratio got accidentally 'nerfed' by having the unique scaling overwritten with the new scaling.

This new scaling/value is what got the 50% buff in 4.0.4

The unique Weapon Damage scaling is gone, and as a result of the Damage Buff, Werewolves that have more stamina will see a Damage increase, and Werewolves that have more Weapon Damage will see a Damage decrease (looking like a very little decrease at that)

Not sure if this is just a Band-aid fix and will be addressed in the future, or just be left alone.

That's all I know so far.

Ah, I see. So we don't yet know if this is intentional or, as you said, a Band-Aid.

If I understand it correctly, you believe the 50% buff was applied to the broken PTS version, rather than the live version? It seems to me that is NOT a 50% buff if we were starting at -40% to begin with. Most unsatisfactory.

Excellent and informative post, thank you!

Sharee

jediprime74 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

I don't know the exact ratios, but this is the gist of it:

Live WW has more disparity between WD and Stam. something like a 60:10 ratio, because weapon damage had an extra bonus when calculated into WW Light attacks.

Ex:
WD = 1 WD : 1.5 Damage
Stam = 40[ Stam : 1 Damage

When they changed it the first time they "brought it in line" with other light attacks by simply copy and pasting whatever information was with the new values (from some other weapons class), over the old values.

WD = 1 WD : 1 Damage
Stam = 10.5 Stam : 1 Damage

The Stam ratio got buffed, but the WD ratio got accidentally 'nerfed' by having the unique scaling overwritten with the new scaling.

This new scaling/value is what got the 50% buff in 4.0.4

The unique Weapon Damage scaling is gone, and as a result of the Damage Buff, Werewolves that have more stamina will see a Damage increase, and Werewolves that have more Weapon Damage will see a Damage decrease (looking like a very little decrease at that)

Not sure if this is just a Band-aid fix and will be addressed in the future, or just be left alone.

That's all I know so far.

Ah, I see. So we don't yet know if this is intentional or, as you said, a Band-Aid.

If I understand it correctly, you believe the 50% buff was applied to the broken PTS version, rather than the live version? It seems to me that is NOT a 50% buff if we were starting at -40% to begin with. Most unsatisfactory.

Excellent and informative post, thank you!

Keep in mind where that 50% figure came from. It was in Gina's reply specifically to a complaint about the early LA PTS values. She said the values are bugged, and we'll see a 50% increase(over those values) next patch. She never implied a 50% increase over live.

Besides, if ZOS increased my live WW's LA damage by 50%, everyone else could just pack their things and leave

Qbiken

Sharee wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

I don't know the exact ratios, but this is the gist of it:

Live WW has more disparity between WD and Stam. something like a 60:10 ratio, because weapon damage had an extra bonus when calculated into WW Light attacks.

Ex:
WD = 1 WD : 1.5 Damage
Stam = 40[ Stam : 1 Damage

When they changed it the first time they "brought it in line" with other light attacks by simply copy and pasting whatever information was with the new values (from some other weapons class), over the old values.

WD = 1 WD : 1 Damage
Stam = 10.5 Stam : 1 Damage

The Stam ratio got buffed, but the WD ratio got accidentally 'nerfed' by having the unique scaling overwritten with the new scaling.

This new scaling/value is what got the 50% buff in 4.0.4

The unique Weapon Damage scaling is gone, and as a result of the Damage Buff, Werewolves that have more stamina will see a Damage increase, and Werewolves that have more Weapon Damage will see a Damage decrease (looking like a very little decrease at that)

Not sure if this is just a Band-aid fix and will be addressed in the future, or just be left alone.

That's all I know so far.

Ah, I see. So we don't yet know if this is intentional or, as you said, a Band-Aid.

If I understand it correctly, you believe the 50% buff was applied to the broken PTS version, rather than the live version? It seems to me that is NOT a 50% buff if we were starting at -40% to begin with. Most unsatisfactory.

Excellent and informative post, thank you!

Keep in mind where that 50% figure came from. It was in Gina's reply specifically to a complaint about the early LA PTS values. She said the values are bugged, and we'll see a 50% increase(over those values) next patch. She never implied a 50% increase over live.

Besides, if ZOS increased my live WW's LA damage by 50%, everyone else could just pack their things and leave

I still find it weird that instead of fixing bugged values, you boost the bugged values in order to try making them on par with other changes. The 50% buff to bugged values feels very much like a Band-Aid fix, and since the damage values to the light attacks are very similar to live ,WW´s barely benefits from the new changes......

At least I´ve got jewellery crafting going for me next patch.......

Sharee

Qbiken wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@jediprime74

I don't know the exact ratios, but this is the gist of it:

Live WW has more disparity between WD and Stam. something like a 60:10 ratio, because weapon damage had an extra bonus when calculated into WW Light attacks.

Ex:
WD = 1 WD : 1.5 Damage
Stam = 40[ Stam : 1 Damage

When they changed it the first time they "brought it in line" with other light attacks by simply copy and pasting whatever information was with the new values (from some other weapons class), over the old values.

WD = 1 WD : 1 Damage
Stam = 10.5 Stam : 1 Damage

The Stam ratio got buffed, but the WD ratio got accidentally 'nerfed' by having the unique scaling overwritten with the new scaling.

This new scaling/value is what got the 50% buff in 4.0.4

The unique Weapon Damage scaling is gone, and as a result of the Damage Buff, Werewolves that have more stamina will see a Damage increase, and Werewolves that have more Weapon Damage will see a Damage decrease (looking like a very little decrease at that)

Not sure if this is just a Band-aid fix and will be addressed in the future, or just be left alone.

That's all I know so far.

Ah, I see. So we don't yet know if this is intentional or, as you said, a Band-Aid.

If I understand it correctly, you believe the 50% buff was applied to the broken PTS version, rather than the live version? It seems to me that is NOT a 50% buff if we were starting at -40% to begin with. Most unsatisfactory.

Excellent and informative post, thank you!

Keep in mind where that 50% figure came from. It was in Gina's reply specifically to a complaint about the early LA PTS values. She said the values are bugged, and we'll see a 50% increase(over those values) next patch. She never implied a 50% increase over live.

Besides, if ZOS increased my live WW's LA damage by 50%, everyone else could just pack their things and leave

I still find it weird that instead of fixing bugged values, you boost the bugged values in order to try making them on par with other changes. The 50% buff to bugged values feels very much like a Band-Aid fix, and since the damage values to the light attacks are very similar to live ,WW´s barely benefits from the new changes......

At least I´ve got jewellery crafting going for me next patch.......

Why does everyone say they "buffed bugged values". It seems more likely they just reverted the change to WW light attack scaling with weapon damage to the previous(current on live) values. Which coincidentally resulted in a 50% "buff"(over the bugged PTS values).

The(current, fixed) PTS values barely benefit because WW LA damage was always high thanks to the special scaling with weapon damage(which latest PTS repaired), not because of high scaling with stamina.

Ex: if 80% of your LA damage came from high weapon damage, and only 20% from high stamina, then the overall buff to LA in summerset will be relatively small, because summerset only improves stamina ratio for LA damage, not weapondamage ratio.

Aznox

Sharee wrote: »

It seems more likely they just reverted the change to WW light attack scaling with weapon damage to the previous(current on live) values. Which coincidentally resulted in a 50% "buff"(over the bugged PTS values).

The(current, fixed) PTS values barely benefit because WW LA damage was always high thanks to the special scaling with weapon damage(which latest PTS repaired), not because of high scaling with stamina.

Ex: if 80% of your LA damage came from high weapon damage, and only 20% from high stamina, then the overall buff to LA in summerset will be relatively small, because summerset only improves stamina ratio for LA damage, not weapondamage ratio.

The current PTS is not just an increase in LA/HA damage given by max stamina, it's also a decrease in damage given by weapon damage. (they lowered the overall coefficient otherwise every build would have seen a big buff)

On a build oriented toward max stamina (probably what the dev were testing) the result is a net buff.
On a build oriented toward weapon damage, the result is a no-change or very slight nerf.

This is easily verified on PTS, by swapping my automaton for hulking draugr i achieve close light attack numbers, things that is impossible on live.

The "problem" i have with this (not a big deal really) is that dev think they have "buffed" werewolf but in reality the builds that are the best performing on live were not buffed a all, they just allowed inferior (on live) builds to catch up.

Qbiken

Aznox wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

It seems more likely they just reverted the change to WW light attack scaling with weapon damage to the previous(current on live) values. Which coincidentally resulted in a 50% "buff"(over the bugged PTS values).

The(current, fixed) PTS values barely benefit because WW LA damage was always high thanks to the special scaling with weapon damage(which latest PTS repaired), not because of high scaling with stamina.

Ex: if 80% of your LA damage came from high weapon damage, and only 20% from high stamina, then the overall buff to LA in summerset will be relatively small, because summerset only improves stamina ratio for LA damage, not weapondamage ratio.

The current PTS is not just an increase in LA/HA damage given by max stamina, it's also a decrease in damage given by weapon damage. (they lowered the overall coefficient otherwise every build would have seen a big buff)

On a build oriented toward max stamina (probably what the dev were testing) the result is a net buff.
On a build oriented toward weapon damage, the result is a no-change or very slight nerf.

This is easily verified on PTS, by swapping my automaton for hulking draugr i achieve close light attack numbers, things that is impossible on live.

The "problem" i have with this (not a big deal really) is that dev think they have "buffed" werewolf but in reality the builds that are the best performing on live were not buffed a all, they just allowed inferior (on live) builds to catch up.

Basically this ^

Sharee

Aznox wrote: »

The "problem" i have with this (not a big deal really) is that dev think they have "buffed" werewolf but in reality the builds that are the best performing on live were not buffed a all, they just allowed inferior (on live) builds to catch up.

I don't see it like that. What you call "inferior" on live may be inferior in terms of damage, but not inferior overall. Not having top damage is usually a tradeoff for something else. For example i am using salvation set instead of automaton, which is clearly inferior in terms of damage (150 weapon damage instead of 400), but the tradeoff being able to transform 33% faster (and thus 33% more often) is worth it for me (DK has it's perks...).

So, i think it is unfair to say the devs think they have buffed the WW when in reality they did not. They did. Its just that not all builds benefit equally.

Aznox

Sharee wrote: »

So, i think it is unfair to say the devs think they have buffed the WW when in reality they did not. They did. Its just that not all builds benefit equally.

I need to re-do all my Live/PTS comparison because they were missing Major Brutality and Hircine's Rage.
This should increase the loss in DPS for my build.

Have you done the comparison with these buffs ? If not the "buff" for your build might be a lot smaller than what you thought.

I know what i wrote could be read like "if you got a buff on PTS then your build was bad" but it is just an exaggeration of the situation to explain my point. Also i'm purely judging "Weapon Damage vs Max Stamina", not the utility of great sets like Salvation

RouDeR

Any Pelinal Builds stacking Weapon damage will get slight Nerf ,
I honestly dont care much , cuz Pelinal builds lack of tankiness cuz of low magicka sustain and mitigation .

For me the sweetspot of WW weapon damage is between 3k and 3.5k wpd fully buffed up .
Anything more is a overkill and demands sucrifice of survivability and tankiness.

Aznox

RouDeR wrote: »

Any Pelinal Builds stacking Weapon damage will get slight Nerf ,
I honestly dont care much , cuz Pelinal builds lack of tankiness cuz of low magicka sustain and mitigation .

Pelinal buils are not the only ones aiming for weapon damage ...

For me the sweetspot of WW weapon damage is between 3k and 3.5k wpd fully buffed up .
Anything more is a overkill and demands sucrifice of survivability and tankiness.

You must be missing some buffs then because even naked with just weapons i'm at 3643 WD (5372 physical WD with stuff on)

jediprime74

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Is there any chance that we can get some clarification and feedback from the Devs on this issue? Is the 50% buff intended simply to try to fix the broken light attack issues on PTS, that is to say - bringing the value of that damage output to approximately what is is on live? Was it meant to cause a disparity between stamina pool vs weapon damage builds?

As always, thanks!

Emma_Overload

This is good news for Stam Sorc furballs, because they have the means to boost their stamina higher than most other builds.

Aznox

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is good news for Stam Sorc furballs, because they have the means to boost their stamina higher than most other builds.

No this is not, because it just makes stacking stamina barely as viable as stacking weapon damage was.

RoyJade

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is good news for Stam Sorc furballs, because they have the means to boost their stamina higher than most other builds.

You think now that bound armament is reworked, the skill can be slotted as a WW and the 8% max stam can be active ? I haven't tested, but it's definitively worth testing.

Qbiken

Emma_Overload wrote: »

This is good news for Stam Sorc furballs, because they have the means to boost their stamina higher than most other builds.

From my testing on PTS the damage difference is close to 0 compared to live (and I´m testing with a Redguard Stamsorc). So far werewolfs benefit less than "non-werewolfs" by the new changes to light- and heavy attacks.

Avran_Sylt

@jediprime74

The light attacks aren't "broken". They've just been standardized. Not sure if that should be the case, as while in WW form the Light attacks are essentially your spammable (with no cost).

The 50% buff has at for the most part placated people, but as it stands now, it allows a build that has more of a resource pool/sustain to perform more comparably damage wise in comparison to a build that sacrifices the resource pool for damage. IMO, this isn't very well balanced as while the Damage build trades sustain for burst, the resource sustain build has similar damage. Hence my assumption that it is a band-aid fix.

They should in no way have the increased stamina ratio in tandem with the increased WD scaling, however, unless WW light attacks also were accompanied by a nerf to light attacks, as that would make them a bit to overpowered.

Aznox

RoyJade wrote: »

You think now that bound armament is reworked, the skill can be slotted as a WW and the 8% max stam can be active ? I haven't tested, but it's definitively worth testing.

It was never possible to slot any ability other than a werewolf ability on a werewolf bar and this has not changed.