WW LA (Normalized) ... WW Feedback Thread

NyassaV

Skoomah wrote: »

Confirmed. Werewolf light attack damage is lower on PTS vs. Live Servers.

PTS: 4170 average light attack dmg
Live: 5789 average light attack dmg

That's a 28% drop in damage!

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore. We already deal with a bunch of other buggy mechanics.

ZOS, you got to fix this. This is unacceptable if it goes to live. We demand you fix this broken coding now because it will just be forgotten otherwise. You asked the people who attended the Summit to ask us to provide you with feedback during the PTS. Please fix this now!

I can't stand how things keep getting broken and not fixed patch to patch.

It's... Still worth playing... 4k light attacks is still like... 100% or 200% more damage than most light attacks right now

Avran_Sylt

Ladislao wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

Apart from the visuals, mechanically that's WW's shtick IMO (Light attacks, the Heavy Attacks are funky). That and the Light Attack bleed.

It's kinda Stamina's Overload. 'cept you can only use a set of 5 specific abilities.

Ragnarock41

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Werewolf was always ridiculously overpowered.

lol

RoyJade

NyassaV wrote: »

It's... Still worth playing... 4k light attacks is still like... 200% or 200% more damage than most light attacks right now

Well, if you don't consider the weapon damage increase passive WW get and the bleed component, WW on the PTS does exactly the same LA damage than when they're in human form. Without the need of an ultimate and with all skills and passive they've access for.
Except in some rare case when WW skills and the bleed damage are really powerful (which is rare), it's totally not worth playing. PTS WW lose damage when every other build gain some.

usmcjdking

Ladislao wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

WW is already in the gutter to begin with - if it wasn't you'd be seeing a lot more WW's all over the place. WW needs anything but nerfs and that has been the case since probably Thieves Guild.

Guys like @Skoomah rarely do anything but WW and it's been nerfed into the ground over the last few patches for no discernable reason.

The higher stam pool and WD do not matter if all our skills scale pathetically, which has been the case for a long time. We get 30% more stam but lose the static 20% cost redux from skill lines which really only gives us 10% more effective stam pool. The only thing that didn't scale like complete trash was the bleed and light/heavy attacks. The heal scales like garbage because it literally requires you to either run Pelinal's or Shackle to be worthwhile. The 4k armor is reasonably strong, but only really 9k in the grand scheme since you lose our on Maj/Min Ward & Resolve unless you run Chudan, and then you lose any other potential buffs such as Minor Protection that your class may have available. The one synergy WWs can use has essentially taken a 40% effective nerf as well (Feeding Frenzy). Mag toons would be up in arms if next patch looked something like this -

"Mist form now costs 4k stamina."

Now that light/heavies have been dumpstered, WW PVE DPS will drop well below any other combination of DPS imaginable. WW can't even dummy parse correctly because you can't stay in WW long enough to get a parse without 3 other people sitting in WW around you.

WW is on utter life support and is only supported by the fact that a few diehard players refuse to let it go. If you honestly look at what has happened to WW over the past year compared to the direction of the game and say "yeah this is balanced" then you need to self-revoke your forum posting privileges.

Skoomah

Ladislao wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

Light attacks are a critical source of damage for werewolves. If we don't point out the issue and stay silent, how will ZOS know to fix it? Why do you think not a lot of people play werewolves? Because there are serious downsides to playing as one.

Casul

Although I don’t run either WW or Vamp nowadays I still have pity for WW. They are so rare that seeing one is like seeing a unicorn. I hope things get fixed for you all.

Plus people keep ignoring the fact that you have to use an ultimate to even get the power you get. Which isn’t even a good trade off at this point. Werewolves should be buffed. Or make the ultimate a hell of a lot cheaper.

Skoomah

This is it guys. If this doesn't get fixed, werewolves will be extinct...

dodgehopper_ESO

NyassaV wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

Confirmed. Werewolf light attack damage is lower on PTS vs. Live Servers.

PTS: 4170 average light attack dmg
Live: 5789 average light attack dmg

That's a 28% drop in damage!

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore. We already deal with a bunch of other buggy mechanics.

ZOS, you got to fix this. This is unacceptable if it goes to live. We demand you fix this broken coding now because it will just be forgotten otherwise. You asked the people who attended the Summit to ask us to provide you with feedback during the PTS. Please fix this now!

I can't stand how things keep getting broken and not fixed patch to patch.

It's... Still worth playing... 4k light attacks is still like... 100% or 200% more damage than most light attacks right now

For an ultimate that limits you to one bar of abilities and operates a bit like Overload for Stamina and costs you 20 skillpoints... yeah.

Wuuffyy

Ladislao wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

Hey, it’s more than that and also because werewolves have awful sus we need LAs

Ladislao

Skoomah wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Skoomah wrote: »

This drop in damage makes werewolves not worth playing anymore

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

Light attacks are a critical source of damage for werewolves. If we don't point out the issue and stay silent, how will ZOS know to fix it? Why do you think not a lot of people play werewolves? Because there are serious downsides to playing as one.

Yes, of course, I agree that this is a bug that needs to be fixed asap. But in the last message, you said as if the only reason you're playing a werewolf is light attacks. It seemed strange to me, because I see many other advantages for worth playing.

Henceforth I need to better formulate my thoughts

Wuuffyy

Bashev wrote: »

ZoS balancing doesn't work like this. They dont balance the game globally, they divide it to several samples and then balance these samples. This is absolutely wrong.

We had weapons balancing, we had class skills balancing, we had fighters skills balancing, we had race balancing, we had light and heavy attacks balancing, we had item sets balancing and so on.

ZOS never balance all aspect of the game at the same time.

So next year Vamp and WW balance changes. Please be patient

That’s sad but if they don’t fix this there won’t be a next year for me. There isn’t a single reason this shouldn’t be on Mondays natch potes. @ZOS_GinaBruno.

RoyJade

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

That’s sad but if they don’t fix this there won’t be a next year for me. There isn’t a single reason this shouldn’t be on Mondays natch potes. @ZOS_GinaBruno.

They often need a complete week from the moment they acknowledge the problem in order fix non critical bugs and other stuff like that. So, this may not be in Monday patch note for a good reason (need more time).
But there is no reason to not see the fix (or a very, very solid explication) neither in Monday 7 not in Monday 14 natch potes.

Koolio

RoyJade wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

That’s sad but if they don’t fix this there won’t be a next year for me. There isn’t a single reason this shouldn’t be on Mondays natch potes. @ZOS_GinaBruno.

They often need a complete week from the moment they acknowledge the problem in order fix non critical bugs and other stuff like that. So, this may not be in Monday patch note for a good reason (need more time).
But there is no reason to not see the fix (or a very, very solid explication) neither in Monday 7 not in Monday 14 natch potes.

The 1 year it took to fix healing ward say different. It even took 6 months after it was acknowledged. It gets tiresome having too keep up with which bugs break which moves every patch

usmcjdking

Koolio wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

That’s sad but if they don’t fix this there won’t be a next year for me. There isn’t a single reason this shouldn’t be on Mondays natch potes. @ZOS_GinaBruno.

They often need a complete week from the moment they acknowledge the problem in order fix non critical bugs and other stuff like that. So, this may not be in Monday patch note for a good reason (need more time).
But there is no reason to not see the fix (or a very, very solid explication) neither in Monday 7 not in Monday 14 natch potes.

The 1 year it took to fix healing ward say different. It even took 6 months after it was acknowledged. It gets tiresome having too keep up with which bugs break which moves every patch

Well, at least it didn't take 3 YEARS to be able to open a door.

RoyJade

Koolio wrote: »

The 1 year it took to fix healing ward say different. It even took 6 months after it was acknowledged. It gets tiresome having too keep up with which bugs break which moves every patch

Wel, sadly, you're right. I must admit that even if I'm a really optimist guy, I lost most of my faith in most of ZOS' debug and balance teams with the time. A lot of good and/or interesting things happens, but they are nearly alway countered by bugs and really obvious bad design. At least the art and sound team are better and better with time, along with some other ZOS employee who are still driven with passion.
Still, I keep some hope. Hope that it'll be fixed before the live release. Hope that one day I'll be able to make and use a competitive endgame pve werewolf build. Hope that every classes would be a different but equally efficient way to do every job, and sometime with more than one build per class. Hope that the only two limits will be the player's imagination and the balance's needed limits.

runagate

Koolio wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Werewolf was always ridiculously overpowered.

That’s why they are required in All Endgame and PVP content.

Aznox

Ladislao wrote: »

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

It's a good question.

Currently werewolf is viable in "competitive" PvP only because light/heavy attacks + the built-in bleed allow for high sustained damage output even when building only for tankyness + damage by sacrificing sustain.

The howl (only direct damage skill and a costly projectile) is then only used for burst or a quick CC.

If you lower WW LA/HA damage by 50%, you lower this build sustained dps by 25% (the bleed does 50% of the light attack spam dps currently).

RouDeR

I was so hyped to try out my Amberplasm/Shacklebreaker build when summerset comes to live ...
Well It doesnt matter anymore cuz my dmg output will be at level "Patato" . Guess will focus on my ScrubBlade instead.

Ladislao

Aznox wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

It's a good question.

Currently werewolf is viable in "competitive" PvP only because light/heavy attacks + the built-in bleed allow for high sustained damage output even when building only for tankyness + damage by sacrificing sustain.

The howl (only direct damage skill and a costly projectile) is then only used for burst or a quick CC.

If you lower WW LA/HA damage by 50%, you lower this build sustained dps by 25% (the bleed does 50% of the light attack spam dps currently).

Apparently, my experience playing the werewolf is very different from yours. Because in my case LA/Claws only create the initial pressure, whereas the main damage comes just from Howl. And I think that I wouldn't stop playing werewolf if this bug suddenly turned out to be a deliberate change

Sharee

Ladislao wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

It's a good question.

Currently werewolf is viable in "competitive" PvP only because light/heavy attacks + the built-in bleed allow for high sustained damage output even when building only for tankyness + damage by sacrificing sustain.

The howl (only direct damage skill and a costly projectile) is then only used for burst or a quick CC.

If you lower WW LA/HA damage by 50%, you lower this build sustained dps by 25% (the bleed does 50% of the light attack spam dps currently).

Apparently, my experience playing the werewolf is very different from yours. Because in my case LA/Claws only create the initial pressure, whereas the main damage comes just from Howl. And I think that I wouldn't stop playing werewolf if this bug suddenly turned out to be a deliberate change

Werewolf abilities are significantly more costly compared to average. The reasoning (as i see it) is that this is because WW's are supposed to use their abilities sparingly, and mainly rely on their light attacks for bulk of their damage (that's why the werewolf LA's are/were so strong in the firstplace).

I see the current PTS 'nerf' as unintended collateral damage from tinkering with how LA scales with weapon damage. ZOS lowered LA scaling with WD to compensate for increased scaling with max resources, but in doing so lowered all LA's equally(to the same level), not realizing that WW light attacks were a special case.

Qbiken

Ladislao wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

Ladislao wrote: »

Despite the fact that this is a critical bug, it sounds strange to me. Do you play ww only for the sake of light/heavy attacks?

It's a good question.

Currently werewolf is viable in "competitive" PvP only because light/heavy attacks + the built-in bleed allow for high sustained damage output even when building only for tankyness + damage by sacrificing sustain.

The howl (only direct damage skill and a costly projectile) is then only used for burst or a quick CC.

If you lower WW LA/HA damage by 50%, you lower this build sustained dps by 25% (the bleed does 50% of the light attack spam dps currently).

Apparently, my experience playing the werewolf is very different from yours. Because in my case LA/Claws only create the initial pressure, whereas the main damage comes just from Howl. And I think that I wouldn't stop playing werewolf if this bug suddenly turned out to be a deliberate change

The majority of your damage should in my opinion come form light and heavy attacks. Spamming Howl cost too much to be a spammable in my opinion. Not implying there´s "one way" to play werewolf, but just my take on it. If this change goes through (even though Aznox has somehow convinced me ZOS will fix this ) it will basically remove the only competiveness werewolfs have in PvP.

A typical initiation in PvP for me usually looks something like this:
* Pre-buff with Hircine´s Rage and Rousing Roar
* Pounce --> LA ---> Claws of Anguish ---> LA ----> Rousing Roar or Piercing Howl ---> LA until dead, refresh claws of Anguish when needed.

I spend a lot of time analysing my combat metric "parses" whenever I´ve been in a fight in PvP. And in the majority of fights, LA and the bleed associated to the LA´s comes out as my main source of DPS. I´ve compared it to spamming howl and it´s not even close to as effective (in terms of sustain vs damage). I should add that I rarely use werewolf as a burst tool (aka be werewolf in 30 seconds to kill a tank) but rather staying in WW-form as much as possible.

I personally believe this is an unintended change and that something went wrong with the coding, but a response from the combat team @ZOS_GinaBruno about this issue would be highly appreciated. Just so we can stop speculating

Thraben

Since the Devs have been ignoring us for years now (except with the patch when they made wolf pack play impossible), and since more than 80% of cyrodiil´s players are vamps and less than 1% Werewolves, maybe we should revert to more... vocal means of communication...

https://youtu.be/Jw0c9z8EllE

By the way, when do we finally get the passive to sense players in stealth in a 10m radius?

jediprime74

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Any update from ZOS on this? Has this significant damage decrease issue been acknowledged as a bug or is this nerf to Werewolf Light Attacks 'working as intended?'

Please advise!

Thanks!

Didaco

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

The attacks are powerful enough, I'm happy with this change

So you're happy with classes and skills being bugged and mechanics not working as intended?

I wouldn't care for her comments, after many biased threads and comments against stamina

If you actually read them, it's more about magicka not being able to manage stamina

@NyassaV

Well hot damn, I can't wait for StamNB magicka management to get buffed so they can sit nicely in cloak for as long as MagNB.

If your concern is quite literally only with regards to break free however, I can see your point.

Stamblades can already do that
The point is that some players are still so reclutant about cutting their precious magicka pools in favour of stam regen.

NyassaV

Didaco wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

The attacks are powerful enough, I'm happy with this change

So you're happy with classes and skills being bugged and mechanics not working as intended?

I wouldn't care for her comments, after many biased threads and comments against stamina

If you actually read them, it's more about magicka not being able to manage stamina

@NyassaV

Well hot damn, I can't wait for StamNB magicka management to get buffed so they can sit nicely in cloak for as long as MagNB.

If your concern is quite literally only with regards to break free however, I can see your point.

Stamblades can already do that
The point is that some players are still so reclutant about cutting their precious magicka pools in favour of stam regen.

I wear 3 well fitted and 1 stam regen glyph on my ring and yet I still have issues...

Skoomah

If the light attack damage is not fixed soon, it will not be fixed until at least 4 months later because of the approval process for xbox and PlayStation is so onerous. We going to have to wait 1/3 of a year for a fix??? That would be extremely unfair.

Wuuffyy

jediprime74 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Any update from ZOS on this? Has this significant damage decrease issue been acknowledged as a bug or is this nerf to Werewolf Light Attacks 'working as intended?'

Please advise!

Thanks!

This

Wuuffyy

...

Lykanus

ZOS should really have a look at this.