PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance

umagon

After testing some of the skill changes I can say that I am satisfied with the change to dark cloak. At first, I was worried it would have some huge cost to it but it was nice to see it was still magicka and 3.7k. It works out really well for a number of builds I have in mind. Thanks a lot for this change.

The dark shade change is nice however it would be more helpful if the shade did not require a target to cast. And it’s first attack was the aoe attack. So, it could also be cast preemptively and provide an immediate debuff to surrounding hostile targets who engage the player. Basically, allow it be cast at targets but not requiring a target to cast.

HowlKimchi

Shadowy Disguise (Shadow Cloak morph):
Fixed an issue where this morph’s effect was causing all your healing over time effects to critically strike, and not consume the effect.

Hurts medium armor stamblade in pvp a lot

NyassaV

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Strife nerf needs to be reversed. Period.

reposting

NyassaV

Astrid_V wrote: »

I advice you to reconsider Strife increase.
There were several threads made about this change in past weeks, a lot of player feedback was given.

You want to bring it more in line with Force Pulse, but it totally makes no sense. Why you don't reduce cost of Force Pulse instead to match Strife one?

You want to have more diversity in builds, but don't you see that with these kind of changes you are the one who kills diversity?

Now every magblade in PvE will use Force Pulse instead of Strife. Strife will become useless nearly everywhere except vMA and PvP.

This is how you increase diversity? Open your eyes finally. There will be none.

Another thing: after Dragon Bones Assassin's Will is broken. It was reported many times that if you have proc ready on your bar and you exit the combat, proc disappears even if you have still Merciless Resolve active.

It was never confirmed as intended change, and in today's patch notes there was still no word about it. This causes frustration in content like vMA, where you exit combat all the time.

It's partially useless in PvP too

GreenSoup2HoT

Would be nice if cloak purged dots instead of suppressing them. Reduce server lag.

aeowulf

BohnT wrote: »

l3alls wrote: »

The Dark Cloak change is bad. As someone who has always used this offensively, it doesn't feel good to be forced into the more common morph. I think there are plenty of other skills that can have a max health heal.

A Max health heal while still having access to cloak would be too much.

Yes, agree with this. Also a tanky NB is not going to be one that's running around in stealth, magicka or otherwise. Least not in my head. It's also still possible to slot vigor and have a decent heal for stam NB. It's a good choice, one or the other.

davey1107

Re: cloak changes

To Wroebel: BOOOOOOOOOOOO

To Balser: BOOOOOOOOOOO

To Lambert: BOOOOOOOOOOO

To Gina and Jess: You guys seem really likable, I wouldn’t boo you even if I don’t like the change.

aeowulf

Initial thoughts, i've not patched yet or logged in, but here goes:

Executioner bug fix - omg yay. Been shouting about this for ages! I don't think it should of waited until Summerset though I don't think it will help NB tanks either, they still have no tank-friendly class based resource sustain. It almost forces them to run Argonian. I don't think forcing a class-role to be a specific race to get sustain is correct. But at least now we can see if executioner is performing for tanks. (I doubt it, sharing some overlap with Repentence) Reasons are: 1) You need to cast a damaging assassination ability and they all cost more than returned. 2) You need impecible timing, with that 2 second window & 3) you need something to die. Fine in trash but against tougher mobs (think trials bosses here) where you are tanking one boss and an off tank is taking the rest - it's not useful in the slightest Please consider reviewing this, something along the lines of proccing on dodge (blur is assassination) and balancing the amount accordingly.

Malevolent Offering - smart targeting is a good upgrade. Need to work out if it's still possible to target self though...

Strife - "This change was made to put the Strife ability cost more in line with other similar types of abilities, such as Force Shock." - I don't consider this a reason but more of a guideline. Strife is part of the siphoning tree, which I beleive is meant to be the NB healing tree. Force Shock is destro which is a DPS skill. It also has already had one cost increase. It's siphoning line, reducing it's damage by 50% and increasing it's healing by 50% would of been more appropriate if it needed altering, and/or balancing with an alternative skill, like one in the resto staff line.

Path - didn't this only just get a damage increase? What was the dev comment on that?


Other NB thoughts:

Veiled strike & blur should swap positions. Blur is more tanky, and strike is damaging. It would give an addition option for procing executioner, where two of the skills won't. Three if you consider grim focus, as at the time of it to proc, it's more likely you'll be using killer's Blade. Passives also suit the skills much better if they are swapped.

aeowulf

Does this thread not go to the top when you post on it?

aeowulf

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

This thread is broken , it does not go to the top of the list when someone posts on it. Normally use a desktop PC, but just checked it on my phone so i don't have cache/cookie issues. Can someone take a look please?

Strider__Roshin

So a lot of these suggestions for nerfing incap are terrible with the exception of the one made by @KingJ. Incap does not hit too hard whatsoever, and truthfully it is only used for it's utility. Reduce the defile, damage bonus or increase its cost in any way and it'll be a dead ultimate (which is the goal of those posting such terrible suggestions). Removing the stun would be the only change that could be made that wouldn't kill it however the stun would have to be replaced with something else.

Now in reference to Strife. I have to agree with the others. The cost is not justifiable unless you make Strife non-reflectable since Reflective Scales are a hard counter to Strife using magblades.

Dark Cloak changes... I don't recall this heal critting, but I haven't tested that thoroughly. If it doesn't crit then that needs to be changed. The minor protection has to be increased in duration since no tank is going to recast this every 3.5 seconds. A duration of 10 seconds would be the minimum duration required. Also you've definitely made it easier for Nightblades to become good tanks, but what they lack to justify using over a DK is group utility. The change to bolstering darkness is fantastic, but not enough since tanks really should be using Warhorn over support ults. My suggestion would be to provide the minor protection buff you receive from Dark Cloak to your group as well.

Also with Ambush is there a reason why it's only given one empowered light attack whereas empowered chains gets two?

Feanor

@Astrid_V

Another thing: after Dragon Bones Assassin's Will is broken. It was reported many times that if you have proc ready on your bar and you exit the combat, proc disappears even if you have still Merciless Resolve active.

It’s not broken. It’s intended. The clearance of the stack if you exit Combat is there to prevent you can hold the proc for an extended period of time even if you’re not fighting. Every NB would just start a fight with a proc up otherwise, and that’s an issue.

The problem in vMA could be resolved by simply not making the player exit combat between rounds (although you could swap skills only after completion of the stage then).

Pastas

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

The flat damage bonus of 20 percent more damage for 6 seconds is too strong on an ultimate (incap) that already hits hard, has a stun and has a potent debuff such as major defile with it. Would be nice if you changed the flat percent damage buff to all your damage to something like empower which would make the skill much more in line for its low cost.

This change will affect nigthblades in PvE drasticaly, I prefer them to remove the stun or the defile if they are willing to nerf Incap.

BohnT

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Would be nice if cloak purged dots instead of suppressing them. Reduce server lag.

It did this back in the das it was really overperfoming.

aeowulf

Daus wrote: »

The change to bolstering darkness is fantastic, but not enough since tanks really should be using Warhorn over support ults.

I hate to say this, but Warhorn is the issue here, not any other ultimate. It's literally too good in a trial where's its affecting everyone. For another utli to be used, it has to be better, and none are, even remotely

I also don't like this change. War Horn is the go to support ultimate, and that is not changing anytime soon. I would much rather this was left as the back bar "omg it's all gone horribly wrong" ulti it was, with the additional 30% for the tank. That way he could res folks, I feel it's taken the extreme damage reduction niche away from NB tank. I do like the 'can move out of the circle' but wish the change had been applied to veil not bolstering. Too many questions, like does the duration decrease apply to all? how does it all fit in with the duration increase passive?

Azurya

why is there still a nightblade-calss at all in this game??

so many (about 100) are always raging and hatred towards this class in the forum, it should be clear that this class should be deleted from the game at once!
stripping the class from all abilities patch after patch is not enough, even a nightblade without abilities and skills is a thread to these hardcore gamers!

Please be so kind and delete the class once and for all!

LSKidson

Hey! Got a chance to try out Cloudrest on a Magicka Nightblade in PTS last night. Here is what I found:

1. Twitsting Path: The damage reduction from this skill was definitely noticeable. But not a game changer. I think that 6-7% would be better than 9%.
2. Strife: Honestly, the strife change was absolutely crippling (In raid and on dummy). There are a lot of good posts on here that explain and compare strife to force pulse and the justification for the huge cost increase just doesn't exist. I don't think the cost increase idea is a terrible one because the skill does offer some utility, but it should not cost as much as force pulse. Currently, on live strife costs a ~1900, I think a cost of 2100-2300 would be much more inline with the utility and damage this skill offers.
3. 2H Changes: This was pretty cool, decided to run Master Architect, Mechanical Acuity and Scoria on some parses and that was fun. Had to run an infused cost reduction glyph to sustain it though and even then it was a little difficult.
   
4. Conclusion: The take home here is simple. The fact that nightblades can perform a light attack rotation is essential to keeping them unique and "rouge-like". I feel like with the proposed changes, you have to sacrifice too much damage in order to be able to achieve that. I would suggest reconsidering the magnitude of these changes.

Pastas

Feanor wrote: »

@Astrid_V

Another thing: after Dragon Bones Assassin's Will is broken. It was reported many times that if you have proc ready on your bar and you exit the combat, proc disappears even if you have still Merciless Resolve active.

It’s not broken. It’s intended. The clearance of the stack if you exit Combat is there to prevent you can hold the proc for an extended period of time even if you’re not fighting. Every NB would just start a fight with a proc up otherwise, and that’s an issue.

The problem in vMA could be resolved by simply not making the player exit combat between rounds (although you could swap skills only after completion of the stage then).

Yes, I think it is intended too, otherwise it could be exploitable in pvp.
Charge your proc with a lonely wolf and just keep it up until someone comes arroud and bang, asassins will from stealh.

LSKidson

Astrid_V wrote: »

You want to bring it more in line with Force Pulse, but it totally makes no sense. Why you don't reduce cost of Force Pulse instead to match Strife one?

This is a great idea, also helps all the other classes that don't have a range spamable to sustain better. Maybe slightly tweak the force pulse damage to compensate while ensuring it still out damages strife. I think it is important that all classes can sustain light attack rotations since they are more challenging than heavy attack rotations.

Rex-Umbra

Strife needs buffs not nerfs

HEBREWHAMMERRR

Yet again, ZOS proves they can’t balance around PvP and PvE. Magblade arguably has one of the highest skills caps in the game. It is possible to 1vX even with all the hard nerfs we have encountered (cloak nerf was the start, then siphoning) now you choose to nerf our one spammable ability that is crucial for being able to remotely sustain and keep ourselves alive while waiting for our clunky burst ability in merciless. If you’re going to make a change like this throw us some sort of a bone, give us old cloak back since magDK got a snare removal? Make merciless similar like a proc like crystal frags? Give us some sort of utility instead of constantly just hitting us with a nerf hammer every patch. I don’t PvE, I hear we are top tier in this, assume this is what’s influencing. A cloak change would not affect PvE and would bring us back to the defensive and escapability of our roots. The shadow image change is great, I will give you that. It’s just unfortunate that you can’t find a way to balance around PvP and PvE. The empower nerf is also going to hurt us arguably the most as our clunky build up burst is largely affected by this. The nightblade class is seen as an assassin, get in, get out, you’re really hurting us with these changes. Everything else seems in line but look at cloak as it is the one tool that can balance out pvp and not hurt PvE in the slightest. I also think that stamblade pvp needed addressed, the incap nerfs thrown around in here should be taken for consideration.

Own

aeowulf wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

l3alls wrote: »

The Dark Cloak change is bad. As someone who has always used this offensively, it doesn't feel good to be forced into the more common morph. I think there are plenty of other skills that can have a max health heal.

A Max health heal while still having access to cloak would be too much.

Yes, agree with this. Also a tanky NB is not going to be one that's running around in stealth, magicka or otherwise. Least not in my head. It's also still possible to slot vigor and have a decent heal for stam NB. It's a good choice, one or the other.

You misunderstand. Revert dark cloak. Make a different skill heal max health.

tinythinker

LSKidson wrote: »

Hey! Got a chance to try out Cloudrest on a Magicka Nightblade in PTS last night. Here is what I found:

1. Twitsting Path: The damage reduction from this skill was definitely noticeable. But not a game changer. I think that 6-7% would be better than 9%.
2. Strife: Honestly, the strife change was absolutely crippling (In raid and on dummy). There are a lot of good posts on here that explain and compare strife to force pulse and the justification for the huge cost increase just doesn't exist. I don't think the cost increase idea is a terrible one because the skill does offer some utility, but it should not cost as much as force pulse. Currently, on live strife costs a ~1900, I think a cost of 2100-2300 would be much more inline with the utility and damage this skill offers.

These suggests are in line with a lot of what I'm hearing, reading, etc. Need to try out some of these changes to get a personal feel for it before offering any real feedback.

VaxtinTheWolf

I spent a short amount of time trying things out on my Nb healer and NB tank. Here are my initial opinions:


Dark Cloak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIS1_tu5Bf8

4 ticks of healing, each tic can crit. It seems okay, though I think that the Minor Protection buff should be extended to 6 seconds at max rank to be even with the Shadow Barrier passive of 6 seconds of Major Resistances. This will save a little bit on magicka having to use the ability less often for just the Protection buff.

Refreshing Path
I have no comment on the damage reduction, but I feel that The healing amount should be left as it is on Live.

Strife
I personally don't like the cost increase on this skill. It may not bother my Healer as much in the long run, but it really hits my Tank's magicka sustain, causing me to use this skill less often, mostly Per 10 seconds for the HoT effect.

Malevolent Offering

The thorn visual effects of this ability show on who you aim at, instead of who it actually heals.

The tooltip confuses me a little bit. I'm not sure which values of the health cost it's actually using.

The Smart Heal will target pets as well as players. I don't agree with this behavior. I think it should only effect ally players, or at least prioritize them over a pet. (It was targeting the summoned pets from the proc healing sets like Chokethorn.)

The damage this ability does to you over time procs sets like Gorothar, Pirate Skeleton, and Bloodspawn. In the case of Bloodspawn, it will grant you it's 14 ultimate while out of combat.

Blackleopardex

Jumped on PTS, made a quick MAx5/Acuityx5/Zaan build and did 3 dps tests with concealed and witchmother, selfbuffed:

MacCait

LOL trust the Nightblade thread not to work haha. That's very helpful. Perhaps just make a new thread?

Blackleopardex

MacCait wrote: »

LOL trust the Nightblade thread not to work haha. That's very helpful. Perhaps just make a new thread?

It's cloaking

NyassaV

Feanor wrote: »

@Astrid_V

Another thing: after Dragon Bones Assassin's Will is broken. It was reported many times that if you have proc ready on your bar and you exit the combat, proc disappears even if you have still Merciless Resolve active.

It’s not broken. It’s intended. The clearance of the stack if you exit Combat is there to prevent you can hold the proc for an extended period of time even if you’re not fighting. Every NB would just start a fight with a proc up otherwise, and that’s an issue.

The problem in vMA could be resolved by simply not making the player exit combat between rounds (although you could swap skills only after completion of the stage then).

It still disappears when someone tires to use LoS when you cast it REEEEEEE

NyassaV

Daus wrote: »

So a lot of these suggestions for nerfing incap are terrible with the exception of the one made by @KingJ. Incap does not hit too hard whatsoever, and truthfully it is only used for it's utility. Reduce the defile, damage bonus or increase its cost in any way and it'll be a dead ultimate (which is the goal of those posting such terrible suggestions). Removing the stun would be the only change that could be made that wouldn't kill it however the stun would have to be replaced with something else.

Now in reference to Strife. I have to agree with the others. The cost is not justifiable unless you make Strife non-reflectable since Reflective Scales are a hard counter to Strife using magblades.

Dark Cloak changes... I don't recall this heal critting, but I haven't tested that thoroughly. If it doesn't crit then that needs to be changed. The minor protection has to be increased in duration since no tank is going to recast this every 3.5 seconds. A duration of 10 seconds would be the minimum duration required. Also you've definitely made it easier for Nightblades to become good tanks, but what they lack to justify using over a DK is group utility. The change to bolstering darkness is fantastic, but not enough since tanks really should be using Warhorn over support ults. My suggestion would be to provide the minor protection buff you receive from Dark Cloak to your group as well.

Also with Ambush is there a reason why it's only given one empowered light attack whereas empowered chains gets two?

@ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

NyassaV

LSKidson wrote: »

Hey! Got a chance to try out Cloudrest on a Magicka Nightblade in PTS last night. Here is what I found:

1. Twitsting Path: The damage reduction from this skill was definitely noticeable. But not a game changer. I think that 6-7% would be better than 9%.
2. Strife: Honestly, the strife change was absolutely crippling (In raid and on dummy). There are a lot of good posts on here that explain and compare strife to force pulse and the justification for the huge cost increase just doesn't exist. I don't think the cost increase idea is a terrible one because the skill does offer some utility, but it should not cost as much as force pulse. Currently, on live strife costs a ~1900, I think a cost of 2100-2300 would be much more inline with the utility and damage this skill offers.
3. 2H Changes: This was pretty cool, decided to run Master Architect, Mechanical Acuity and Scoria on some parses and that was fun. Had to run an infused cost reduction glyph to sustain it though and even then it was a little difficult.
   
4. Conclusion: The take home here is simple. The fact that nightblades can perform a light attack rotation is essential to keeping them unique and "rouge-like". I feel like with the proposed changes, you have to sacrifice too much damage in order to be able to achieve that. I would suggest reconsidering the magnitude of these changes.

On live and with light armor strife costs 1702, having it cost 1900, 2000, or even 2100 would be an acceptable cost. Arguments could be made for a cost of 2200

@ZOS_Wrobel