PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Nightblade Balance

exeeter702

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Malevolent Offering should work as a self heal. The past two iterations of it have both worked as self heals, other conal AOE heals like Warden's Soothing Spores work as a self heal, single-target heals like Healing Ward and Honor the Dead can heal the caster, and so on.

It can heal the caster, it behaves like healing ward and bol.

NyassaV

exeeter702 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Malevolent Offering should work as a self heal. The past two iterations of it have both worked as self heals, other conal AOE heals like Warden's Soothing Spores work as a self heal, single-target heals like Healing Ward and Honor the Dead can heal the caster, and so on.

It can heal the caster, it behaves like healing ward and bol.

It wasn't exactly working for me

exeeter702

NyassaV wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Malevolent Offering should work as a self heal. The past two iterations of it have both worked as self heals, other conal AOE heals like Warden's Soothing Spores work as a self heal, single-target heals like Healing Ward and Honor the Dead can heal the caster, and so on.

It can heal the caster, it behaves like healing ward and bol.

It wasn't exactly working for me

Ill have to double check later.

Vaoh

Feanor wrote: »

KingJ wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

The flat damage bonus of 20 percent more damage for 6 seconds is too strong on an ultimate (incap) that already hits hard, has a stun and has a potent debuff such as major defile with it. Would be nice if you changed the flat percent damage buff to all your damage to something like empower which would make the skill much more in line for its low cost.

Doing this hurts stamblade PVE DPS.So they won't make that change.They are better off removing the stun.They won't increase the cost or remove the damage buff.

Why should Incap retain the 20% when everyone loses the ability to empower skills? And they didn’t touch Incap at all - it remains the same absurdly overloaded skill that would have lost either the defile, the knockback or the damage if it were any other class.

It’s fine only for Nightblades apparently.

This stuff is honestly so sad to see. You make a valid point.

The fact though is that this is unique and cool. ZOS nerfed everyone else's unique abilities or standardized them into the boring asf Major/Minor system, and now people are rightfully asking for the same to happen to Death Stroke/Soul Harvest/Incap.

Incap is definitely overloaded but I'd at least try to not remove the few things that make classes feel unique. Remove the stun from Incap, lower it's damage a bit, and lower the duration of Major Defile. Just don't remove that damage buff.

Also besides the whole uniqueness factor thing, removing the damage buff will ruin this Ult in PvE.

helediron

Now both cloak morphs are very desirable and we have that totally useless malevolent.

Replace the malovelont with the cloak heal. The cloak is an important utility skill for all my nightblades and the new heal is also great. Don't put these two into same skill! I am using cloak while e.g. farming and want to slot the heal for fights. This is not any "strategic choice". The two morphs are too much different.

ninjaguyman

a couple minutes of dinking around with some monsters and a few duels showed me that malevolent offering wasn't healing the caster? intended or nah? submitted a /bug in case. @ZOS_GinaBruno

the heal cloak seems like a pretty solid tank tool but i tried it out on a pvp spec anyway and it probably won't see too much use there, which is fine. It helped me barely scrape by a few duels, but likely won't help me too much in open world on a magblade

exeeter702

helediron wrote: »

Now both cloak morphs are very desirable and we have that totally useless malevolent.

Replace the malovelont with the cloak heal. The cloak is an important utility skill for all my nightblades and the new heal is also great. Don't put these two into same skill! I am using cloak while e.g. farming and want to slot the heal for fights. This is not any "strategic choice". The two morphs are too much different.

Far from useless

Blackleopardex

helediron wrote: »

Now both cloak morphs are very desirable and we have that totally useless malevolent.

Replace the malovelont with the cloak heal. The cloak is an important utility skill for all my nightblades and the new heal is also great. Don't put these two into same skill! I am using cloak while e.g. farming and want to slot the heal for fights. This is not any "strategic choice". The two morphs are too much different.

Make a choice they are on the same skill for a reason :P

MonarchChief

Haven't read the rest of the thread but quick thought:

With the changes to Dark Cloak, unless the tool tip simply doesn't reflect this, isn't Dark Veil now a detrimental passive? The tool tip states it heals for 32% of your max health. Dark Veil increases the duration of Shadow abilities. Meaning instead of healing 32% over 2.9 seconds, you receive the healing over 3.5 seconds when you have both levels of the passive. I mean, I guess the increased Minor Protection is good but it still doesn't feel like your passive should lower your healing received. This would make more sense if it healed for x over 3.5s instead of x% over 3.5s.

Disclaimer: I have not tested this in combat to determine how big an effect that half a second has.

ccfeeling

Im not on Pts.

But I had a problem with Healthy offering to heal my tank in current live, i could not self heal when i use this skill while targeting the boss, *** skill icon turn to dim. It's suppose to heal myself if I dont target any ally.
Or it works as Zos intention?
I have to off target when im tanking the boss?

*** smart healing system, it even heals pets... it might make trouble to tank...

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

I just want to say before hand this is my first forum post so I'm new here

For the love of all that is good in this world ZoS, can we PLEASE get a buff to (or preferably a revert to pre-Morrrowind) Siphoning Strikes? The ability is garbage and a joke. The burst return is against the point of the ability, which is supposed to be an on demand resource return function, not delayed. It also goes against Nightblade playstyle: In and out, not long period encounters! I will say, I can understand how people might think that the old Siphoning Attacks was OP (I didn't lol) but the changes to it were way over the line.

Ironically at the same time, I have found that the return after a while is sort of nice, like when you're Delving and clear things out and then prepare for the burst return. But I'd take the old version (not the old old reduces WD/SD times lol) any day.

If there's ONE thing I'd ask for for Nightblades, It's BRING BACK OLD SIPHONING STRIKES! I miss purge cloak too but whatever. I guess the new Dark Cloak is more functional.

I feel like the current status of the ability hurts Magblades alot more than Stamblades because they need the stam return as well as Magicka, while Stamblades don't quite NEED the magicka. I've chosen Leeching Strikes (Stam morph) on my Magblade simply for the stam which is terrible for my magicka sustain

Ok, that's all...for now. Lol. Anyone have any words to throw in?

NyassaV

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx wrote: »

I just want to say before hand this is my first forum post so I'm new here

For the love of all that is good in this world ZoS, can we PLEASE get a buff to (or preferably a revert to pre-Morrrowind) Siphoning Strikes? The ability is garbage and a joke. The burst return is against the point of the ability, which is supposed to be an on demand resource return function, not delayed. It also goes against Nightblade playstyle: In and out, not long period encounters! I will say, I can understand how people might think that the old Siphoning Attacks was OP (I didn't lol) but the changes to it were way over the line.

Ironically at the same time, I have found that the return after a while is sort of nice, like when you're Delving and clear things out and then prepare for the burst return. But I'd take the old version (not the old old reduces WD/SD times lol) any day.

If there's ONE thing I'd ask for for Nightblades, It's BRING BACK OLD SIPHONING STRIKES! I miss purge cloak too but whatever. I guess the new Dark Cloak is more functional.

I feel like the current status of the ability hurts Magblades alot more than Stamblades because they need the stam return as well as Magicka, while Stamblades don't quite NEED the magicka. I've chosen Leeching Strikes (Stam morph) on my Magblade simply for the stam which is terrible for my magicka sustain

Ok, that's all...for now. Lol. Anyone have any words to throw in?

I agree on the sustain part

Which the cost increase of strife then we will have a hard time doing that. You aren't the only one who uses Leeching

ccfeeling

Strife cost too much right now , 40% cost increasing ? LOL ...
This is the cored skill of Magblade in PVE , only pro players hit parser over 45k , not all of us .

We can't sustain to cast strife constantly to get the benefits from Merciless Resolve & Siphoning Attacks . ZOS you breaks the art and structure of NB by different meaningless pressures , I feel speechless .

ZOS also nerfs twisting path at the same time , have you check the parser from TP ? it's not even the best 5 output , what I tell you is pro player will find the way to hit the same parser result or even higher , but that's only 2~3% of us .

I can find 40k parser Warden in youtube , so warden doesn't need buffs ? NO , you should do more homeworks .

Please don't mess up and consider deeply about the changes , thank you !

Maryal

Whether something is too strong or not strong enough is very patch dependent. It's highly likely that the Summerset meta will reduce the effectiveness of incap strike for several reasons, whether it's due to how buff people will become, or whether it's due to how much more powerful other skills/abilities become (by way of comparison), or a combination of both. What I'm trying to say is that we need to see how the meta shakes out after Summerset goes live in order to know what skill may or may not be over-performing.

ssewallb14_ESO

exeeter702 wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

On the Strife nerf,

I've been experimenting with Force Pulse in PvP in light of this.

Force Pulse is:

• More damage (if you account for Penetrating Magic and Altmer/Dunmer racials, it might even be more or the same without racials)
• Unreflectable, which is very strong as the rest of the ranged mNB kit is reflectable. Allows much more pressure against DKs and Wardens.
• Can be much more reliably animation canceled in lag
• No need to slot an extra skill to get Ancient Knowledge, allowing use of better alternative abilities
• Doubles the uptime of status effects. This might not seem like much, but burning adds quite a bit of pressure if your damage is already pressure based.

Strife:

• While minor vitality is strong, much of the effect is lost by being front-bar'd, especially if you're damage shield based.
• The HoT won't proc against block, can be "mitigated" (including against damage shields, no crits), and can be negated by dodging/reflecting the base damage, making it very weak in most practical situations. The strength of the HoT doesn't translate to PvP at all due to the ways to avoid and mitigate it. I don't even notice it's gone.

The actual strength of this ability was being able to stack more damage as a return for it's cheaper cost. Without that, it's a very weak skill compared to FP/CS. I'll definitely be using FP if this nerf goes through.. I might even use it anyway, it's much better than I thought initially.

You are being very selective with your reasoning here....

Strife, provides flat increased healing done just for being slotted

I literally said this. Unless you mean the extra 3% from Soul Siphoner? In which case my point still stands.

and provides additional ultimate generation.

True, however every siphoning ability provides this. In practice you can achieve more than half of this effect simply by properly managing cripple and siphoning attacks. It doesn't matter so much when your ulti costs 70, 20 of which is usually covered by Catalyst.

The mitigation argument in pvp is not nearly as much of a factor as is being made put here.

I look forward to hearing your argument for this.

Weaving issues are a seperate matter and have no bearing on ability budgets.

I was comparing my use of the abilities in practice in PvP. It shouldn't have to be a point of comparison, but it is.

The abilities are anagolous to one another, and this nerf is more harmful to nb healers above all else. Mnb resource management will be harder for sure, but the 2 skills absolutely bring equal amount to the table for what they will cost.

I would not say you have established this. Unreflectability and bar space alone make it worth it, assuming costs are equal. The PvE crowd seems to favor FP as well in this situation, as they did before Morrowind sustain changes.

Imo though, both pulse and strife should have a base cost around 2000 magicka.

I'll definitely agree with bringing the costs closer through a cost reduction to FP, I think this is the best solution to this problem in both game modes. Strife however should still remain cheaper.

Jorsen

Please revert the Dark Cloak change. From a PVE tank perspective:

• Cloak is an integral part of Nightblade class identity, even if it's useless for actual tanking.
• There are plenty of other abilities that are lackluster and need changing.
• No other class is being asked to choose between their defining utility skill and anything else. (Nor should they.)

Refreshing Path: I'd rather lose the damage instead of the healing, or perhaps convert the damage to a synergy. It is one of the few group utility abilities I have available.

Strife: while minor, the cost increase simply piles on to NB tanks' sustain problems.

Manifestation of Terror is still useless, which means NB still lacks meaningful PVE crowd control.

Shadow Image: this is good, as it allows for more strategic use of the ability.

Given the comments from recent player interviews, I had hoped the Summerset changes would improve overall tank effectiveness for non-meta classes (read: everyone other than DKs.) These changes simply widen the gap.

zadion

strife costing the same as force pulse makes strife less viable as a skill for end game dps, force pulse does more damage, can apply status affects and scales with racial passives on dunmer, altmer and nords were strife heals a team mate which you have healers for anyway so if this change goes through ill be stuck with using force pulse permanently instead of situationally. 1700 is to low of a cost but 2400 is to high, i think you should aim for 1950-2150.

Rair.Kitani

ccfeeling wrote: »

Strife cost too much right now , 40% cost increasing ? LOL ...
This is the cored skill of Magblade in PVE , only pro players hit parser over 45k , not all of us .

We can't sustain to cast strife constantly to get the benefits from Merciless Resolve & Siphoning Attacks . ZOS you breaks the art and structure of NB by different meaningless pressures , I feel speechless .

ZOS also nerfs twisting path at the same time , have you check the parser from TP ? it's not even the best 5 output , what I tell you is pro player will find the way to hit the same parser result or even higher , but that's only 2~3% of us .
....

So true... To bring down the top 2-3% of magBlade PVE players, you have severeal other options then to take the uniqueness of the class away (everyone will just use crushing shock to replace strife) or to nerf a DOT also the average player needs to get some more or less decent DPS.
My first approach would be to limit the proc of merciless resolve to 2 times per cast. Only those top players are able to reliable proc it three times per cast, and thats the true reason why they get so high parses.

helediron

Blackleopardex wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Now both cloak morphs are very desirable and we have that totally useless malevolent.

Replace the malovelont with the cloak heal. The cloak is an important utility skill for all my nightblades and the new heal is also great. Don't put these two into same skill! I am using cloak while e.g. farming and want to slot the heal for fights. This is not any "strategic choice". The two morphs are too much different.

Make a choice they are on the same skill for a reason :P

There is no reason. Go out and actually test them. Invisibility and heal have nothing in common. Better to move the new heal to a healing skill nobody uses.

GreenSoup2HoT

BohnT wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Would be nice if cloak purged dots instead of suppressing them. Reduce server lag.

It did this back in the das it was really overperfoming.

Yeah but that included other debuffs aswell. I just want dots gone and like a limited amount like 1-2 per cast.

Feanor

helediron wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Now both cloak morphs are very desirable and we have that totally useless malevolent.

Replace the malovelont with the cloak heal. The cloak is an important utility skill for all my nightblades and the new heal is also great. Don't put these two into same skill! I am using cloak while e.g. farming and want to slot the heal for fights. This is not any "strategic choice". The two morphs are too much different.

Make a choice they are on the same skill for a reason :P

There is no reason. Go out and actually test them. Invisibility and heal have nothing in common. Better to move the new heal to a healing skill nobody uses.

Giving NBs a burst heal while they keep minor protection on stealth cloaks is a brilliant idea. Not.

Feanor

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Would be nice if cloak purged dots instead of suppressing them. Reduce server lag.

It did this back in the das it was really overperfoming.

Yeah but that included other debuffs aswell. I just want dots gone and like a limited amount like 1-2 per cast.

Debuffs are insignificant if you can’t hit your opponent.

aeowulf

Bolstering Darkness nerf is too severe. Whilst it's not nice that people can run in and pick up Major Protection it's pretty much turned it in to a PVP only skill. In a trial a tank will be running horn, not this. Extra people picking it up is borderline not going to happen - it will serve as a DPS loss whilst putting people at extra risk. The only people likely to pick it up are Stam DPS, who would pick it up anyway. It <may> of been run on the back bar previously for an 'omg the healer just died' moment, but this is now not the case. The damage reduction has been reduced by 50% and (I need to double check but) seem to remember the duration is also reduced.

Please do not change this skill. Please change the other morph if you must change veil of blades - it's a DPS morph in the tanking tree, so is a much less logical fit. Or leave the additional 30% for the tank.

Malevolent Offering: no longer heals self. A result of smart targetting I guess - could be considered a nerf, but feel the change is overall good.

Cloak - good vibes about this.

Assassin’s Blade: nerf
Lotus Fan (Teleport Strike morph): nerf
Dark Shades: little concerned about the word 'occasionally' - how occasionally
Manifestation of Terror (Aspect of Terror morph): will still be underused. Should be a root.
Path of Darkness: nerf
Shadow Image: wasn't it target-less last year?
Debilitate (Cripple morph): needs overhaul, will still not be used.
Soul Siphon: Useful trial change.
Strife: nerf

Too many nerfs


No help for NB tank sustain.

BohnT

aeowulf wrote: »

Bolstering Darkness nerf is too severe. Whilst it's not nice that people can run in and pick up Major Protection it's pretty much turned it in to a PVP only skill. In a trial a tank will be running horn, not this. Extra people picking it up is borderline not going to happen - it will serve as a DPS loss whilst putting people at extra risk. The only people likely to pick it up are Stam DPS, who would pick it up anyway. It <may> of been run on the back bar previously for an 'omg the healer just died' moment, but this is now not the case. The damage reduction has been reduced by 50% and (I need to double check but) seem to remember the duration is also reduced.

Please do not change this skill. Please change the other morph if you must change veil of blades - it's a DPS morph in the tanking tree, so is a much less logical fit. Or leave the additional 30% for the tank.

Malevolent Offering: no longer heals self. A result of smart targetting I guess - could be considered a nerf, but feel the change is overall good.

Cloak - good vibes about this.

Assassin’s Blade: nerf
Lotus Fan (Teleport Strike morph): nerf
Dark Shades: little concerned about the word 'occasionally' - how occasionally
Manifestation of Terror (Aspect of Terror morph): will still be underused. Should be a root.
Path of Darkness: nerf
Shadow Image: wasn't it target-less last year?
Debilitate (Cripple morph): needs overhaul, will still not be used.
Soul Siphon: Useful trial change.
Strife: nerf

Too many nerfs


No help for NB tank sustain.

Assassin's Blade nerf doesn't mean anything. It's maybe 1 cast you miss out on but more often than not you are doing your rotation and you but your first AB at 25% health of less especially in non vet hm trials.

Lotus fan nerf was needed, the snare was always overperfoming, a 70% snare shouldn't be available on a spammable gap closer with decent damage.

Haven't tested Dark shade as i feel like it's really lackluster.

Fear trap is strong but only in niche situations or duels but as long as there is a delay they will always be less played than fear.

Path of darkness: I'd reduce the damage only by 5-7%, it doesn't kill the skill but feels kinda stupid

Shadow image: The skill needed a target for most of his time in the game, i think it changed even before 1.6 but i can't remember. This is a crazy buff for the skill, i can't even find words how much this buffs Nightblades in OW.

Debilitate sucks but i don't know what to make it, turning it into a stam ability would be way too strong maybe make it better for PvE as the root is very strong in PvP

aeowulf

BohnT wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

Bolstering Darkness nerf is too severe. Whilst it's not nice that people can run in and pick up Major Protection it's pretty much turned it in to a PVP only skill. In a trial a tank will be running horn, not this. Extra people picking it up is borderline not going to happen - it will serve as a DPS loss whilst putting people at extra risk. The only people likely to pick it up are Stam DPS, who would pick it up anyway. It <may> of been run on the back bar previously for an 'omg the healer just died' moment, but this is now not the case. The damage reduction has been reduced by 50% and (I need to double check but) seem to remember the duration is also reduced.

Please do not change this skill. Please change the other morph if you must change veil of blades - it's a DPS morph in the tanking tree, so is a much less logical fit. Or leave the additional 30% for the tank.

Malevolent Offering: no longer heals self. A result of smart targetting I guess - could be considered a nerf, but feel the change is overall good.

Cloak - good vibes about this.

Assassin’s Blade: nerf
Lotus Fan (Teleport Strike morph): nerf
Dark Shades: little concerned about the word 'occasionally' - how occasionally
Manifestation of Terror (Aspect of Terror morph): will still be underused. Should be a root.
Path of Darkness: nerf
Shadow Image: wasn't it target-less last year?
Debilitate (Cripple morph): needs overhaul, will still not be used.
Soul Siphon: Useful trial change.
Strife: nerf

Too many nerfs


No help for NB tank sustain.

Assassin's Blade nerf doesn't mean anything. It's maybe 1 cast you miss out on but more often than not you are doing your rotation and you but your first AB at 25% health of less especially in non vet hm trials.

Lotus fan nerf was needed, the snare was always overperfoming, a 70% snare shouldn't be available on a spammable gap closer with decent damage.

Haven't tested Dark shade as i feel like it's really lackluster.

Fear trap is strong but only in niche situations or duels but as long as there is a delay they will always be less played than fear.

Path of darkness: I'd reduce the damage only by 5-7%, it doesn't kill the skill but feels kinda stupid

Shadow image: The skill needed a target for most of his time in the game, i think it changed even before 1.6 but i can't remember. This is a crazy buff for the skill, i can't even find words how much this buffs Nightblades in OW.

Debilitate sucks but i don't know what to make it, turning it into a stam ability would be way too strong maybe make it better for PvE as the root is very strong in PvP

I don't disagree with any of those points

ccfeeling

Malevolent Offering is very important to NB tank , smart healing meaning we can't self heal much or none? ... ZOS , is it possible change to effect on self and one front ally ?

Otherwise , I would request to reverse the change because it will be a NB tank nightmare skill .

Blackleopardex

helediron wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Now both cloak morphs are very desirable and we have that totally useless malevolent.

Replace the malovelont with the cloak heal. The cloak is an important utility skill for all my nightblades and the new heal is also great. Don't put these two into same skill! I am using cloak while e.g. farming and want to slot the heal for fights. This is not any "strategic choice". The two morphs are too much different.

Make a choice they are on the same skill for a reason :P

There is no reason. Go out and actually test them. Invisibility and heal have nothing in common. Better to move the new heal to a healing skill nobody uses.

The reason they are on the same ability is because you choose between becoming invisible or healing/buffing yourself. I mean honestly would be op to have both...

Blackleopardex

ccfeeling wrote: »

Malevolent Offering is very important to NB tank , smart healing meaning we can't self heal much or none? ... ZOS , is it possible change to effect on self and one front ally ?

Otherwise , I would request to reverse the change because it will be a NB tank nightmare skill .

Is it now? I have only used malevolent offering in a few situations on my NB-tank. More often on the healer... That said the new change is a full on healer ability, not so sure it's gonna be used tho :P In conclusion I have no problem with them changing it, but not sure what they have done here now..

ccfeeling

Blackleopardex wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Malevolent Offering is very important to NB tank , smart healing meaning we can't self heal much or none? ... ZOS , is it possible change to effect on self and one front ally ?

Otherwise , I would request to reverse the change because it will be a NB tank nightmare skill .

Is it now? I have only used malevolent offering in a few situations on my NB-tank. More often on the healer... That said the new change is a full on healer ability, not so sure it's gonna be used tho :P In conclusion I have no problem with them changing it, but not sure what they have done here now..

At PTS, yes.

All depends on the play style.
It could be a strong HOT for NB tank, plus minor mending, all our HOT abilities could be Burst up.

Good to healer but bad to tank after changed.

Blackleopardex

ccfeeling wrote: »

Blackleopardex wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Malevolent Offering is very important to NB tank , smart healing meaning we can't self heal much or none? ... ZOS , is it possible change to effect on self and one front ally ?

Otherwise , I would request to reverse the change because it will be a NB tank nightmare skill .

Is it now? I have only used malevolent offering in a few situations on my NB-tank. More often on the healer... That said the new change is a full on healer ability, not so sure it's gonna be used tho :P In conclusion I have no problem with them changing it, but not sure what they have done here now..

At PTS, yes.

All depends on the play style.
It could be a strong HOT for NB tank, plus minor mending, all our HOT abilities could be Burst up.

Good to healer but bad to tank after changed.

The way I like to look at it: The Dark Cloak Morph now is a tanking skill, after all we get healing based on missing health. Not very useful on a low health character. Because of this the tank will not need the malevolent offering anymore? Also I don't know any NB-tanks that uses the cloak on the live patch today, at least not for tanking.

For the healing in general for NB, I would like to so the mag-blade in pvp depends less on the resto-staff when running no cloak build and I don't think the dark cloak fixes that? I will have to test it...

Edit: The sad part about the Dark Cloak is that NB-tanks never really befitted from having high health. Now we have 2 skills that will do that. However I don't think my personal health on the tank will go that much up because of the benefit from having lots of magicka to increase the healing from: refreshing path, funnel health, sap essence and orbs...