Summerset architecture.

Olauron

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm in love with my beautiful archipelago of summerset, auridon, and artaeum. I spend as much time as I can there.

It looks beautiful. The ploblem is that the zone looks the same and is to homogenic. The northern part of the zone have the same biom and terrain as the southern...

Actually it has the highlands and gryphon peaks around the direnni lands.

It has the swampish boggy area around the wastes of corgrad.

The plains and fields surrounding russafeld.

All of the coastline is a seperate environment to the inland.

Ebon stadmont is a thicket of forest
And just past the Alaxon'Ald is a forest leading to sun hold.

There is lots of variety, it's just subtle and seamless. Easily missed to the untrained eye.

If I need to train my eye to appreciate the diversity of Summerset, then that's not my problem. This isnt some elitist art piece. This is a nation in a supposedly deep and rich fantasy universe. Saying its sublte and easily missed is just a way of spinning the repetitive landscape in comparison to other games and even othet ESO expansions.

Actually everything you just said sounds exactly like high elf culture. It is an elitist art piece. That one would need a trained eye for.

I'm so tired of these excuses. Like, I honestly cant tell if you actually think this is an in-lore creative choice or not.

Because that's absurd.

I'm exhausted by this fanbase trying to retrofit every inconsistency, retcon, and example of creative bankruptcy as some stroke of subversive genius from the developers. It's not.

Summerset is repetitive and homogenous with copy-pasted cities and a distinct lack of diverse biomes compared to other mmo expansions, singleplayer ES games, or even other ESO expansions. This wasnt done out of subtle, genius worldbuilding. Stop deluding yourself. It was done by a group of developers who cobbled together an uninspired disneyland world because they thought it was good enough.

psychotrip

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

Skyrim is far more diverse in its climate than Summerset. The cities are not all the same architecture either and you know it. Just stop it. Even ESO's Vvardenfell has more variety.

How, exactly, would making Summerset a more diverse, colorful place with multiple biomes get in the way of lore? Like...at all? This is a nonsense argument. Islands in real life have multiple biomes. Ever been to Japan or Indonesia? Islands in the Elder Scrolls have multiple biomes. Again, look at Vvardenfell.

Summerset has barely been described at all since the first PGE, which itself was designed to retcon its portrayal in Arena, which in the devs own words was just generic medieval fantasy (since arena was originally a fighting game and the lore was just set dressing).

In light of this, they had the freedom to go in numerous directions with the climate. If they wanted to be "realistic" for example they would've taken into account the fact that Summerset is far to the south, presumably warm and tropical like Valenwood and Auridon to a lesser extent. If they wanted to get creative they could contrive all sorts of reasons for multiple biomes. Snowy mountains, arid frontiers, magical jungles, unique cities (not all the exact same architecture), and much much more.

But they didn't, did they? And lore wasnt the reason. Environments are a major aspect of how lore is expressed and developed. Its an essential part of worldbuilding. They should never fight each other, and in fact should go hand in hand.

ZOS made a choice. They didn't have to make that choice. What they chose was objectively more repetitive and less diverse than other ESO expansions, singleplayer Elder Scrolls games, and other successful MMO expansions. There is no denying this.

dcam86b14_ESO

They did it to please the people thinking the elves had to be perfect and untouched by literally "anything". It's over and done with anyway so no point in arguing over it. Maybe we'll get the next TES game in summerset like 100 years from now lol

psychotrip

dcam86b14_ESO wrote: »

They did it to please the people thinking the elves had to be perfect and untouched by literally "anything". It's over and done with anyway so no point in arguing over it. Maybe we'll get the next TES game in summerset like 100 years from now lol

Perfect and untouched and yet their infrastructure is literally falling apart and half ruined. There was no thought process to this beyond making something "familiar" and pretty on a surface level. They even admitted to the former. The Elder Scrolla universe is "mundane at its heart" remember? Unless you're a dunmer or argonian of course, bur lets ignore that.

kaisernick

@psychotrip

How is Artaeum decent though? Sure the building looks nice, but you dont get to explore much of it and inside the halls its looks more like a crypt than a building made for powerful mages, hell id say Artaeum is one of the biggest letdowns so far.

But in general the entire isles have been a let down, Auridon looks very boring and for some reason nothing like the main isle at all, hell because of how bad i felt Auridon looked i actually love summerset more.

Parasaurolophus

I thought a lot about architecture, traveling around Sammrset. Nevertheless, I like this architecture more. It is much more "sophisticated" and "sublime" than just the usual European architecture that is suitable for Hirok. Such architecture stands out against the backdrop of an endless series of white semi-arches and floral patterns that we are used to seeing in elf architecture in other universes that simply copy the style of elves from The Lord of the Rings.

TheNuminous1

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm in love with my beautiful archipelago of summerset, auridon, and artaeum. I spend as much time as I can there.

It looks beautiful. The ploblem is that the zone looks the same and is to homogenic. The northern part of the zone have the same biom and terrain as the southern...

Actually it has the highlands and gryphon peaks around the direnni lands.

It has the swampish boggy area around the wastes of corgrad.

The plains and fields surrounding russafeld.

All of the coastline is a seperate environment to the inland.

Ebon stadmont is a thicket of forest
And just past the Alaxon'Ald is a forest leading to sun hold.

There is lots of variety, it's just subtle and seamless. Easily missed to the untrained eye.

If I need to train my eye to appreciate the diversity of Summerset, then that's not my problem. This isnt some elitist art piece. This is a nation in a supposedly deep and rich fantasy universe. Saying its sublte and easily missed is just a way of spinning the repetitive landscape in comparison to other games and even othet ESO expansions.

Actually everything you just said sounds exactly like high elf culture. It is an elitist art piece. That one would need a trained eye for.

I'm so tired of these excuses. Like, I honestly cant tell if you actually think this is an in-lore creative choice or not.

Because that's absurd.

I'm exhausted by this fanbase trying to retrofit every inconsistency, retcon, and example of creative bankruptcy as some stroke of subversive genius from the developers. It's not.

Summerset is repetitive and homogenous with copy-pasted cities and a distinct lack of diverse biomes compared to other mmo expansions, singleplayer ES games, or even other ESO expansions. This wasnt done out of subtle, genius worldbuilding. Stop deluding yourself. It was done by a group of developers who cobbled together an uninspired disneyland world because they thought it was good enough.

You seem awfully bent on making sure I'm aware how wrong my OPINION is. Its my opinion. No one is trying to force you to like summerset. Some of us actually just love it for what it is.

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm in love with my beautiful archipelago of summerset, auridon, and artaeum. I spend as much time as I can there.

It looks beautiful. The ploblem is that the zone looks the same and is to homogenic. The northern part of the zone have the same biom and terrain as the southern...

Actually it has the highlands and gryphon peaks around the direnni lands.

It has the swampish boggy area around the wastes of corgrad.

The plains and fields surrounding russafeld.

All of the coastline is a seperate environment to the inland.

Ebon stadmont is a thicket of forest
And just past the Alaxon'Ald is a forest leading to sun hold.

There is lots of variety, it's just subtle and seamless. Easily missed to the untrained eye.

If I need to train my eye to appreciate the diversity of Summerset, then that's not my problem. This isnt some elitist art piece. This is a nation in a supposedly deep and rich fantasy universe. Saying its sublte and easily missed is just a way of spinning the repetitive landscape in comparison to other games and even othet ESO expansions.

Actually everything you just said sounds exactly like high elf culture. It is an elitist art piece. That one would need a trained eye for.

I'm so tired of these excuses. Like, I honestly cant tell if you actually think this is an in-lore creative choice or not.

Because that's absurd.

I'm exhausted by this fanbase trying to retrofit every inconsistency, retcon, and example of creative bankruptcy as some stroke of subversive genius from the developers. It's not.

Summerset is repetitive and homogenous with copy-pasted cities and a distinct lack of diverse biomes compared to other mmo expansions, singleplayer ES games, or even other ESO expansions. This wasnt done out of subtle, genius worldbuilding. Stop deluding yourself. It was done by a group of developers who cobbled together an uninspired disneyland world because they thought it was good enough.

You seem awfully bent on making sure I'm aware how wrong my OPINION is. Its my opinion. No one is trying to force you to like summerset. Some of us actually just love it for what it is.

Opinion is fine.

Its when you jump through hoops to justify your opinion by saying Summerset is homogenous out of some deep, genius worldbuilding design, or when Olauron claims that Skyrim has the same level of diversity as Summerset, or that a singleplayer game with copy-pasted cities and a single environment would be "glorious"...yeah, that's when I roll my eyes.

TheNuminous1

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm in love with my beautiful archipelago of summerset, auridon, and artaeum. I spend as much time as I can there.

It looks beautiful. The ploblem is that the zone looks the same and is to homogenic. The northern part of the zone have the same biom and terrain as the southern...

Actually it has the highlands and gryphon peaks around the direnni lands.

It has the swampish boggy area around the wastes of corgrad.

The plains and fields surrounding russafeld.

All of the coastline is a seperate environment to the inland.

Ebon stadmont is a thicket of forest
And just past the Alaxon'Ald is a forest leading to sun hold.

There is lots of variety, it's just subtle and seamless. Easily missed to the untrained eye.

If I need to train my eye to appreciate the diversity of Summerset, then that's not my problem. This isnt some elitist art piece. This is a nation in a supposedly deep and rich fantasy universe. Saying its sublte and easily missed is just a way of spinning the repetitive landscape in comparison to other games and even othet ESO expansions.

Actually everything you just said sounds exactly like high elf culture. It is an elitist art piece. That one would need a trained eye for.

I'm so tired of these excuses. Like, I honestly cant tell if you actually think this is an in-lore creative choice or not.

Because that's absurd.

I'm exhausted by this fanbase trying to retrofit every inconsistency, retcon, and example of creative bankruptcy as some stroke of subversive genius from the developers. It's not.

Summerset is repetitive and homogenous with copy-pasted cities and a distinct lack of diverse biomes compared to other mmo expansions, singleplayer ES games, or even other ESO expansions. This wasnt done out of subtle, genius worldbuilding. Stop deluding yourself. It was done by a group of developers who cobbled together an uninspired disneyland world because they thought it was good enough.

You seem awfully bent on making sure I'm aware how wrong my OPINION is. Its my opinion. No one is trying to force you to like summerset. Some of us actually just love it for what it is.

Opinion is fine.

Its when you jump through hoops to justify your opinion by saying Summerset is homogenous out of some deep, genius worldbuilding design, or when Olauron claims that Skyrim has the same level of diversity as Summerset, or that a singleplayer game with copy-pasted cities and a single environment would be "glorious"...yeah, that's when I roll my eyes.

Just to be frank. I've never said any of the things you just laid out before me. You did.

SirMewser

I like opening clam shells there.

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

vilio11 wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

I'm in love with my beautiful archipelago of summerset, auridon, and artaeum. I spend as much time as I can there.

It looks beautiful. The ploblem is that the zone looks the same and is to homogenic. The northern part of the zone have the same biom and terrain as the southern...

Actually it has the highlands and gryphon peaks around the direnni lands.

It has the swampish boggy area around the wastes of corgrad.

The plains and fields surrounding russafeld.

All of the coastline is a seperate environment to the inland.

Ebon stadmont is a thicket of forest
And just past the Alaxon'Ald is a forest leading to sun hold.

There is lots of variety, it's just subtle and seamless. Easily missed to the untrained eye.

If I need to train my eye to appreciate the diversity of Summerset, then that's not my problem. This isnt some elitist art piece. This is a nation in a supposedly deep and rich fantasy universe. Saying its sublte and easily missed is just a way of spinning the repetitive landscape in comparison to other games and even othet ESO expansions.

Actually everything you just said sounds exactly like high elf culture. It is an elitist art piece. That one would need a trained eye for.

I'm so tired of these excuses. Like, I honestly cant tell if you actually think this is an in-lore creative choice or not.

Because that's absurd.

I'm exhausted by this fanbase trying to retrofit every inconsistency, retcon, and example of creative bankruptcy as some stroke of subversive genius from the developers. It's not.

Summerset is repetitive and homogenous with copy-pasted cities and a distinct lack of diverse biomes compared to other mmo expansions, singleplayer ES games, or even other ESO expansions. This wasnt done out of subtle, genius worldbuilding. Stop deluding yourself. It was done by a group of developers who cobbled together an uninspired disneyland world because they thought it was good enough.

You seem awfully bent on making sure I'm aware how wrong my OPINION is. Its my opinion. No one is trying to force you to like summerset. Some of us actually just love it for what it is.

Opinion is fine.

Its when you jump through hoops to justify your opinion by saying Summerset is homogenous out of some deep, genius worldbuilding design, or when Olauron claims that Skyrim has the same level of diversity as Summerset, or that a singleplayer game with copy-pasted cities and a single environment would be "glorious"...yeah, that's when I roll my eyes.

Just to be frank. I've never said any of the things you just laid out before me. You did.

"There is lots of variety, it's just subtle and seamless. Easily missed to the untrained eye."


"Actually everything you just said sounds exactly like high elf culture. It is an elitist art piece. That one would need a trained eye for."

https://gfycat.com/antiqueharmoniousjaguar

Olauron

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

Skyrim is far more diverse in its climate than Summerset. The cities are not all the same architecture either and you know it. Just stop it. Even ESO's Vvardenfell has more variety.

How, exactly, would making Summerset a more diverse, colorful place with multiple biomes get in the way of lore? Like...at all? This is a nonsense argument. Islands in real life have multiple biomes. Ever been to Japan or Indonesia? Islands in the Elder Scrolls have multiple biomes. Again, look at Vvardenfell.

Summerset has barely been described at all since the first PGE, which itself was designed to retcon its portrayal in Arena, which in the devs own words was just generic medieval fantasy (since arena was originally a fighting game and the lore was just set dressing).

In light of this, they had the freedom to go in numerous directions with the climate. If they wanted to be "realistic" for example they would've taken into account the fact that Summerset is far to the south, presumably warm and tropical like Valenwood and Auridon to a lesser extent. If they wanted to get creative they could contrive all sorts of reasons for multiple biomes. Snowy mountains, arid frontiers, magical jungles, unique cities (not all the exact same architecture), and much much more.

But they didn't, did they? And lore wasnt the reason. Environments are a major aspect of how lore is expressed and developed. Its an essential part of worldbuilding. They should never fight each other, and in fact should go hand in hand.

ZOS made a choice. They didn't have to make that choice. What they chose was objectively more repetitive and less diverse than other ESO expansions, singleplayer Elder Scrolls games, and other successful MMO expansions. There is no denying this.

Wow... We were talking about biomes, about a variety of nature on Summerset. Now suddenly we compare the cities of Skyrim (mostly absurd) with cities of Summerset? So, I repeat, Summerset has as many different biomes as Skyrim. In Skyrim we have forest (summer and autumn at the same time, as if it is possible, when even old M&M games could do season changing), we have Rohan... I mean plains, we have swamp, we have highlands and we have snow. On Summerset we have forests (Ebon Stadmont - the very magical jungle you were looking for, yet failed to notice; Alaxon'ald), we have plains (Russafeld and more), we have swamps (Sea Keep - Corgrad Wastes), we have highlands (Direnni Acropolis, Dusk Keep), we have coral forest (north of Sil-Var-Woad) and beaches.

There should be no snow (only the top of Eton Nir is known for it), there should be no desert. Main Summerset isle is just a little bigger than Auridon, while Auridon has just forests, plains and beaches.

Summerset is paradise. The blessed isle. It is a paradise both in cultured part and in wilderness part. Exile from the isles is equivalent to a death sentence. So there should be no harsh environments, everything should be pleasant and beautiful.

psychotrip

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

Skyrim is far more diverse in its climate than Summerset. The cities are not all the same architecture either and you know it. Just stop it. Even ESO's Vvardenfell has more variety.

How, exactly, would making Summerset a more diverse, colorful place with multiple biomes get in the way of lore? Like...at all? This is a nonsense argument. Islands in real life have multiple biomes. Ever been to Japan or Indonesia? Islands in the Elder Scrolls have multiple biomes. Again, look at Vvardenfell.

Summerset has barely been described at all since the first PGE, which itself was designed to retcon its portrayal in Arena, which in the devs own words was just generic medieval fantasy (since arena was originally a fighting game and the lore was just set dressing).

In light of this, they had the freedom to go in numerous directions with the climate. If they wanted to be "realistic" for example they would've taken into account the fact that Summerset is far to the south, presumably warm and tropical like Valenwood and Auridon to a lesser extent. If they wanted to get creative they could contrive all sorts of reasons for multiple biomes. Snowy mountains, arid frontiers, magical jungles, unique cities (not all the exact same architecture), and much much more.

But they didn't, did they? And lore wasnt the reason. Environments are a major aspect of how lore is expressed and developed. Its an essential part of worldbuilding. They should never fight each other, and in fact should go hand in hand.

ZOS made a choice. They didn't have to make that choice. What they chose was objectively more repetitive and less diverse than other ESO expansions, singleplayer Elder Scrolls games, and other successful MMO expansions. There is no denying this.

Wow... We were talking about biomes, about a variety of nature on Summerset. Now suddenly we compare the cities of Skyrim (mostly absurd) with cities of Summerset? So, I repeat, Summerset has as many different biomes as Skyrim. In Skyrim we have forest (summer and autumn at the same time, as if it is possible, when even old M&M games could do season changing), we have Rohan... I mean plains, we have swamp, we have highlands and we have snow. On Summerset we have forests (Ebon Stadmont - the very magical jungle you were looking for, yet failed to notice; Alaxon'ald), we have plains (Russafeld and more), we have swamps (Sea Keep - Corgrad Wastes), we have highlands (Direnni Acropolis, Dusk Keep), we have coral forest (north of Sil-Var-Woad) and beaches.

There should be no snow (only the top of Eton Nir is known for it), there should be no desert. Main Summerset isle is just a little bigger than Auridon, while Auridon has just forests, plains and beaches.

Summerset is paradise. The blessed isle. It is a paradise both in cultured part and in wilderness part. Exile from the isles is equivalent to a death sentence. So there should be no harsh environments, everything should be pleasant and beautiful.

This topic is called Summerset architecture. Of course I'm bringing that up as part of the visual issues I have with Summerset. You cannot defend the copy-pasted cities. Or the crumbling infrastructure of this supposed "paradise".

Half the lore stuff you brought up was literally invented for ESO, such as the main isle only being marginally bigger than Auridon (they shrunk it down for ESO, not to mention the fact that the scale of tamriel allows for multiple climates in a single province), and the idea that there's no desert (which literally contradicts Arena, the game they claim they took inspiration from. Again, Arena is barely canon so it doesnt bother me but it just shows their selective memory). Snow only appearing on eton nir was also entirely invented by ESO. These are all choices they made that have nothing to do with lore.

I dont know what to tell you about Summerset's environmental diversity, man. This is just insane to me. If you can look at these different locales and see as much diversity as Skyrim (its a matter of magnitude, not just raw numbers) then we have such different taste in art, video games, and creativity in general that I can't possibly comprehend your process here.

Bottom line: Zenimax had a choice on how to show portray this paradise. They had almost limitless options within established canon. They chose the most generic and tired options they had available. I'm glad you enjoy it. Doesn't change the fact that its all incredibly basic and near-indistinguishable from hundreds of generic fantasy worlds.

It's hilarious to me that the Altmer were invented (remember the name didnt come into use until PGE1) as a subversion of tired old fantasy high elf tropes...and now that's literally all the Altmer are. Generic fantasy high elves.

But hey, some people like familiarity.

Aristocles22

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

vilio11

Olauron wrote: »

There should be no snow (only the top of Eton Nir is known for it), there should be no desert. Main Summerset isle is just a little bigger than Auridon, while Auridon has just forests, plains and beaches.

Summerset zone is too small. The whole island should have contain atleast two zones big as Glenumbra.

Olauron

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

Skyrim is far more diverse in its climate than Summerset. The cities are not all the same architecture either and you know it. Just stop it. Even ESO's Vvardenfell has more variety.

How, exactly, would making Summerset a more diverse, colorful place with multiple biomes get in the way of lore? Like...at all? This is a nonsense argument. Islands in real life have multiple biomes. Ever been to Japan or Indonesia? Islands in the Elder Scrolls have multiple biomes. Again, look at Vvardenfell.

Summerset has barely been described at all since the first PGE, which itself was designed to retcon its portrayal in Arena, which in the devs own words was just generic medieval fantasy (since arena was originally a fighting game and the lore was just set dressing).

In light of this, they had the freedom to go in numerous directions with the climate. If they wanted to be "realistic" for example they would've taken into account the fact that Summerset is far to the south, presumably warm and tropical like Valenwood and Auridon to a lesser extent. If they wanted to get creative they could contrive all sorts of reasons for multiple biomes. Snowy mountains, arid frontiers, magical jungles, unique cities (not all the exact same architecture), and much much more.

But they didn't, did they? And lore wasnt the reason. Environments are a major aspect of how lore is expressed and developed. Its an essential part of worldbuilding. They should never fight each other, and in fact should go hand in hand.

ZOS made a choice. They didn't have to make that choice. What they chose was objectively more repetitive and less diverse than other ESO expansions, singleplayer Elder Scrolls games, and other successful MMO expansions. There is no denying this.

Wow... We were talking about biomes, about a variety of nature on Summerset. Now suddenly we compare the cities of Skyrim (mostly absurd) with cities of Summerset? So, I repeat, Summerset has as many different biomes as Skyrim. In Skyrim we have forest (summer and autumn at the same time, as if it is possible, when even old M&M games could do season changing), we have Rohan... I mean plains, we have swamp, we have highlands and we have snow. On Summerset we have forests (Ebon Stadmont - the very magical jungle you were looking for, yet failed to notice; Alaxon'ald), we have plains (Russafeld and more), we have swamps (Sea Keep - Corgrad Wastes), we have highlands (Direnni Acropolis, Dusk Keep), we have coral forest (north of Sil-Var-Woad) and beaches.

There should be no snow (only the top of Eton Nir is known for it), there should be no desert. Main Summerset isle is just a little bigger than Auridon, while Auridon has just forests, plains and beaches.

Summerset is paradise. The blessed isle. It is a paradise both in cultured part and in wilderness part. Exile from the isles is equivalent to a death sentence. So there should be no harsh environments, everything should be pleasant and beautiful.

This topic is called Summerset architecture. Of course I'm bringing that up as part of the visual issues I have with Summerset. You cannot defend the copy-pasted cities. Or the crumbling infrastructure of this supposed "paradise".

Half the lore stuff you brought up was literally invented for ESO, such as the main isle only being marginally bigger than Auridon (they shrunk it down for ESO, not to mention the fact that the scale of tamriel allows for multiple climates in a single province), and the idea that there's no desert (which literally contradicts Arena, the game they claim they took inspiration from. Again, Arena is barely canon so it doesnt bother me but it just shows their selective memory). Snow only appearing on eton nir was also entirely invented by ESO. These are all choices they made that have nothing to do with lore.

I dont know what to tell you about Summerset's environmental diversity, man. This is just insane to me. If you can look at these different locales and see as much diversity as Skyrim (its a matter of magnitude, not just raw numbers) then we have such different taste in art, video games, and creativity in general that I can't possibly comprehend your process here.

Bottom line: Zenimax had a choice on how to show portray this paradise. They had almost limitless options within established canon. They chose the most generic and tired options they had available. I'm glad you enjoy it. Doesn't change the fact that its all incredibly basic and near-indistinguishable from hundreds of generic fantasy worlds.

It's hilarious to me that the Altmer were invented (remember the name didnt come into use until PGE1) as a subversion of tired old fantasy high elf tropes...and now that's literally all the Altmer are. Generic fantasy high elves.

But hey, some people like familiarity.

I actually can defend architecture that at least makes sense. That is architecture of Summerset compared to architecture of Skyrim. In Skyrim we have old palaces - that is OK, we have Markarth in the mountain and dwemer ruins - that is OK, but after that we have wooden this and wooden that, and even more wooden with different walls and different roofs. We have different types of wooden buildings for Whiterun, Riften, Solitude, all the minor towns (farms, villages). This difference is not climate-based, this difference is not culture-based, it is just because. It is not mixed in any way, while it should be mixed in any real towns and cities.
Summerset, on the other hand, has mixed styles in the cities. Sometimes it is more old architecture, sometimes it is more modern architecture. In every city. That is believable. Summerset architecture lacks corals, wings and magic, sure, but even with those cities should be the same.
Also we should keep in mind, that nords are just petty humans. Their lives are short. That can explain the presence of different Solitude, Windhelm and Whiterun palaces, created at different times. Altmer are elves, who live (especially nobility) up to thousands of years. No way styles in architecture (and other arts or crafts) would change as fast as for humans.

If you look at the previous maps, you will see, that main Summerset isle is not much bigger than Auridon. Definitely not bigger enough to allow radically different biomes.

As for generic fantasy, the only altmer armor that was unique was glass armor in TES 3. If you look at elven armor and mithril armor in TES4 or TES 5, you will clearly see, that in ESO this trend simply continues.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

And here you are simply biased, since Haafingar, Hjaalmarch, The Pale, Winterhold are just "snow areas with more or less trees". At the same time you are ignoring swamps, magical woods and coral forests of Summerset. By the way, there is also gigantic natural arch in King's Pass (you will also see it on the loading screen).

Edit:
P. S. And considering the variety of styles on Summerset. We have one style for bosmer. We have one style for bretons. We have one style for redguards, a little modified for Abah's Landing. We have one style for one region (or one style for many regions) since release. Why would anyone expect many styles on Summerset, when there are zero nostalgic reasons?

psychotrip

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

The issue is that Summerset doesnt even feel that tropical. Its so odd. It seems far more like a temperate, western european island than a tropical paradise in the southern hemisphere. And remember: even tropical islands have diverse biomes. I posted some pics of Hawaii a long time ago in this thread to illustrate this fact.

Also, the scale of Tamriel is bigger than what we see in game. Depending on your source, Summerset could be as big as Australia. That leaves plenty of room for multiple, diverse biomes.

But they chose not to do anything with any of that because they didn't have a previous game's worth of worldbuilding to piggyback off of like they did with Morrowind. So instead we got this. The apparent extent of ZOS's creativity. And now its canon forever.

psychotrip

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

Skyrim is far more diverse in its climate than Summerset. The cities are not all the same architecture either and you know it. Just stop it. Even ESO's Vvardenfell has more variety.

How, exactly, would making Summerset a more diverse, colorful place with multiple biomes get in the way of lore? Like...at all? This is a nonsense argument. Islands in real life have multiple biomes. Ever been to Japan or Indonesia? Islands in the Elder Scrolls have multiple biomes. Again, look at Vvardenfell.

Summerset has barely been described at all since the first PGE, which itself was designed to retcon its portrayal in Arena, which in the devs own words was just generic medieval fantasy (since arena was originally a fighting game and the lore was just set dressing).

In light of this, they had the freedom to go in numerous directions with the climate. If they wanted to be "realistic" for example they would've taken into account the fact that Summerset is far to the south, presumably warm and tropical like Valenwood and Auridon to a lesser extent. If they wanted to get creative they could contrive all sorts of reasons for multiple biomes. Snowy mountains, arid frontiers, magical jungles, unique cities (not all the exact same architecture), and much much more.

But they didn't, did they? And lore wasnt the reason. Environments are a major aspect of how lore is expressed and developed. Its an essential part of worldbuilding. They should never fight each other, and in fact should go hand in hand.

ZOS made a choice. They didn't have to make that choice. What they chose was objectively more repetitive and less diverse than other ESO expansions, singleplayer Elder Scrolls games, and other successful MMO expansions. There is no denying this.

Wow... We were talking about biomes, about a variety of nature on Summerset. Now suddenly we compare the cities of Skyrim (mostly absurd) with cities of Summerset? So, I repeat, Summerset has as many different biomes as Skyrim. In Skyrim we have forest (summer and autumn at the same time, as if it is possible, when even old M&M games could do season changing), we have Rohan... I mean plains, we have swamp, we have highlands and we have snow. On Summerset we have forests (Ebon Stadmont - the very magical jungle you were looking for, yet failed to notice; Alaxon'ald), we have plains (Russafeld and more), we have swamps (Sea Keep - Corgrad Wastes), we have highlands (Direnni Acropolis, Dusk Keep), we have coral forest (north of Sil-Var-Woad) and beaches.

There should be no snow (only the top of Eton Nir is known for it), there should be no desert. Main Summerset isle is just a little bigger than Auridon, while Auridon has just forests, plains and beaches.

Summerset is paradise. The blessed isle. It is a paradise both in cultured part and in wilderness part. Exile from the isles is equivalent to a death sentence. So there should be no harsh environments, everything should be pleasant and beautiful.

This topic is called Summerset architecture. Of course I'm bringing that up as part of the visual issues I have with Summerset. You cannot defend the copy-pasted cities. Or the crumbling infrastructure of this supposed "paradise".

Half the lore stuff you brought up was literally invented for ESO, such as the main isle only being marginally bigger than Auridon (they shrunk it down for ESO, not to mention the fact that the scale of tamriel allows for multiple climates in a single province), and the idea that there's no desert (which literally contradicts Arena, the game they claim they took inspiration from. Again, Arena is barely canon so it doesnt bother me but it just shows their selective memory). Snow only appearing on eton nir was also entirely invented by ESO. These are all choices they made that have nothing to do with lore.

I dont know what to tell you about Summerset's environmental diversity, man. This is just insane to me. If you can look at these different locales and see as much diversity as Skyrim (its a matter of magnitude, not just raw numbers) then we have such different taste in art, video games, and creativity in general that I can't possibly comprehend your process here.

Bottom line: Zenimax had a choice on how to show portray this paradise. They had almost limitless options within established canon. They chose the most generic and tired options they had available. I'm glad you enjoy it. Doesn't change the fact that its all incredibly basic and near-indistinguishable from hundreds of generic fantasy worlds.

It's hilarious to me that the Altmer were invented (remember the name didnt come into use until PGE1) as a subversion of tired old fantasy high elf tropes...and now that's literally all the Altmer are. Generic fantasy high elves.

But hey, some people like familiarity.

I actually can defend architecture that at least makes sense. That is architecture of Summerset compared to architecture of Skyrim. In Skyrim we have old palaces - that is OK, we have Markarth in the mountain and dwemer ruins - that is OK, but after that we have wooden this and wooden that, and even more wooden with different walls and different roofs. We have different types of wooden buildings for Whiterun, Riften, Solitude, all the minor towns (farms, villages). This difference is not climate-based, this difference is not culture-based, it is just because. It is not mixed in any way, while it should be mixed in any real towns and cities.
Summerset, on the other hand, has mixed styles in the cities. Sometimes it is more old architecture, sometimes it is more modern architecture. In every city. That is believable. Summerset architecture lacks corals, wings and magic, sure, but even with those cities should be the same.
Also we should keep in mind, that nords are just petty humans. Their lives are short. That can explain the presence of different Solitude, Windhelm and Whiterun palaces, created at different times. Altmer are elves, who live (especially nobility) up to thousands of years. No way styles in architecture (and other arts or crafts) would change as fast as for humans.

If you look at the previous maps, you will see, that main Summerset isle is not much bigger than Auridon. Definitely not bigger enough to allow radically different biomes.

As for generic fantasy, the only altmer armor that was unique was glass armor in TES 3. If you look at elven armor and mithril armor in TES4 or TES 5, you will clearly see, that in ESO this trend simply continues.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

And here you are simply biased, since Haafingar, Hjaalmarch, The Pale, Winterhold are just "snow areas with more or less trees". At the same time you are ignoring swamps, magical woods and coral forests of Summerset. By the way, there is also gigantic natural arch in King's Pass (you will also see it on the loading screen).

Edit:
P. S. And considering the variety of styles on Summerset. We have one style for bosmer. We have one style for bretons. We have one style for redguards, a little modified for Abah's Landing. We have one style for one region (or one style for many regions) since release. Why would anyone expect many styles on Summerset, when there are zero nostalgic reasons?

You're just proving my point at the end there dude. Yes, the cities from the early game are incredibly repetitive, and people complained about that for years. And God dont get me started on the forum complaints about DC zones being repetitive, or AD zones being almost nothing but Valenwood over and over again. But at the very least ZOS was trying to represent the majority of Tamriel so I can almost forgive them being stretched thin.

Why do we expect more? Because they gave us more with Morrowind. I expect games to improve over time, and environmental design is part of that. Instead they took a step backwards because they couldn't come up with anything without a previous game to cling to.

They had ONE job for Summerset: to make Summerset. And yet this was the extent of their creativity. You can justify it all you want, but there are just as many ways to justify MORE diversity and MORE creativity. Why settle for the former?

And yes you're 100% right: The Elder Scrolls has only gotten more generic since Oblivion, but Zenimax had an OPPORTUNITY to reverse this by showing us a place we had never seen. What did we get? Another European forest with European cities. Never seen that before.

Olauron

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Because an entire expansion representing the majority of a country shouldn't have one generic repetitive biome throughout. Its that simple. Can you imagine when they make a full game out of Summerset? Whats the point? Canonically the entire region is one mountainy forest with some beaches. It would be like if Skyrim looked like a single hold. Imagine a province of just haafingar and every city had the exact same architecture as Solitude.

Yes, I can. It would be glorious (even better if we also remove nebarra and keep only Altmer and goblin-slaves). It would be not very different from TES 5: Skyrim, where you have different shades of snow with occasional swamp (just like in Summerset) and autumn (take beaches in Summerset as a substitute).
Lore is the only thing that matters. Everything else should be adjusted appropriately. There should never be diversity for the sake of diversity.

Skyrim is far more diverse in its climate than Summerset. The cities are not all the same architecture either and you know it. Just stop it. Even ESO's Vvardenfell has more variety.

How, exactly, would making Summerset a more diverse, colorful place with multiple biomes get in the way of lore? Like...at all? This is a nonsense argument. Islands in real life have multiple biomes. Ever been to Japan or Indonesia? Islands in the Elder Scrolls have multiple biomes. Again, look at Vvardenfell.

Summerset has barely been described at all since the first PGE, which itself was designed to retcon its portrayal in Arena, which in the devs own words was just generic medieval fantasy (since arena was originally a fighting game and the lore was just set dressing).

In light of this, they had the freedom to go in numerous directions with the climate. If they wanted to be "realistic" for example they would've taken into account the fact that Summerset is far to the south, presumably warm and tropical like Valenwood and Auridon to a lesser extent. If they wanted to get creative they could contrive all sorts of reasons for multiple biomes. Snowy mountains, arid frontiers, magical jungles, unique cities (not all the exact same architecture), and much much more.

But they didn't, did they? And lore wasnt the reason. Environments are a major aspect of how lore is expressed and developed. Its an essential part of worldbuilding. They should never fight each other, and in fact should go hand in hand.

ZOS made a choice. They didn't have to make that choice. What they chose was objectively more repetitive and less diverse than other ESO expansions, singleplayer Elder Scrolls games, and other successful MMO expansions. There is no denying this.

Wow... We were talking about biomes, about a variety of nature on Summerset. Now suddenly we compare the cities of Skyrim (mostly absurd) with cities of Summerset? So, I repeat, Summerset has as many different biomes as Skyrim. In Skyrim we have forest (summer and autumn at the same time, as if it is possible, when even old M&M games could do season changing), we have Rohan... I mean plains, we have swamp, we have highlands and we have snow. On Summerset we have forests (Ebon Stadmont - the very magical jungle you were looking for, yet failed to notice; Alaxon'ald), we have plains (Russafeld and more), we have swamps (Sea Keep - Corgrad Wastes), we have highlands (Direnni Acropolis, Dusk Keep), we have coral forest (north of Sil-Var-Woad) and beaches.

There should be no snow (only the top of Eton Nir is known for it), there should be no desert. Main Summerset isle is just a little bigger than Auridon, while Auridon has just forests, plains and beaches.

Summerset is paradise. The blessed isle. It is a paradise both in cultured part and in wilderness part. Exile from the isles is equivalent to a death sentence. So there should be no harsh environments, everything should be pleasant and beautiful.

This topic is called Summerset architecture. Of course I'm bringing that up as part of the visual issues I have with Summerset. You cannot defend the copy-pasted cities. Or the crumbling infrastructure of this supposed "paradise".

Half the lore stuff you brought up was literally invented for ESO, such as the main isle only being marginally bigger than Auridon (they shrunk it down for ESO, not to mention the fact that the scale of tamriel allows for multiple climates in a single province), and the idea that there's no desert (which literally contradicts Arena, the game they claim they took inspiration from. Again, Arena is barely canon so it doesnt bother me but it just shows their selective memory). Snow only appearing on eton nir was also entirely invented by ESO. These are all choices they made that have nothing to do with lore.

I dont know what to tell you about Summerset's environmental diversity, man. This is just insane to me. If you can look at these different locales and see as much diversity as Skyrim (its a matter of magnitude, not just raw numbers) then we have such different taste in art, video games, and creativity in general that I can't possibly comprehend your process here.

Bottom line: Zenimax had a choice on how to show portray this paradise. They had almost limitless options within established canon. They chose the most generic and tired options they had available. I'm glad you enjoy it. Doesn't change the fact that its all incredibly basic and near-indistinguishable from hundreds of generic fantasy worlds.

It's hilarious to me that the Altmer were invented (remember the name didnt come into use until PGE1) as a subversion of tired old fantasy high elf tropes...and now that's literally all the Altmer are. Generic fantasy high elves.

But hey, some people like familiarity.

I actually can defend architecture that at least makes sense. That is architecture of Summerset compared to architecture of Skyrim. In Skyrim we have old palaces - that is OK, we have Markarth in the mountain and dwemer ruins - that is OK, but after that we have wooden this and wooden that, and even more wooden with different walls and different roofs. We have different types of wooden buildings for Whiterun, Riften, Solitude, all the minor towns (farms, villages). This difference is not climate-based, this difference is not culture-based, it is just because. It is not mixed in any way, while it should be mixed in any real towns and cities.
Summerset, on the other hand, has mixed styles in the cities. Sometimes it is more old architecture, sometimes it is more modern architecture. In every city. That is believable. Summerset architecture lacks corals, wings and magic, sure, but even with those cities should be the same.
Also we should keep in mind, that nords are just petty humans. Their lives are short. That can explain the presence of different Solitude, Windhelm and Whiterun palaces, created at different times. Altmer are elves, who live (especially nobility) up to thousands of years. No way styles in architecture (and other arts or crafts) would change as fast as for humans.

If you look at the previous maps, you will see, that main Summerset isle is not much bigger than Auridon. Definitely not bigger enough to allow radically different biomes.

As for generic fantasy, the only altmer armor that was unique was glass armor in TES 3. If you look at elven armor and mithril armor in TES4 or TES 5, you will clearly see, that in ESO this trend simply continues.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

And here you are simply biased, since Haafingar, Hjaalmarch, The Pale, Winterhold are just "snow areas with more or less trees". At the same time you are ignoring swamps, magical woods and coral forests of Summerset. By the way, there is also gigantic natural arch in King's Pass (you will also see it on the loading screen).

Edit:
P. S. And considering the variety of styles on Summerset. We have one style for bosmer. We have one style for bretons. We have one style for redguards, a little modified for Abah's Landing. We have one style for one region (or one style for many regions) since release. Why would anyone expect many styles on Summerset, when there are zero nostalgic reasons?

You're just proving my point at the end there dude. Yes, the cities from the early game are incredibly repetitive, and people complained about that for years. And God dont get me started on the forum complaints about DC zones being repetitive, or AD zones being almost nothing but Valenwood over and over again. But at the very least ZOS was trying to represent the majority of Tamriel so I can almost forgive them being stretched thin.

Why do we expect more? Because they gave us more with Morrowind. I expect games to improve over time, and environmental design is part of that. Instead they took a step backwards because they couldn't come up with anything without a previous game to cling to.

They had ONE job for Summerset: to make Summerset. And yet this was the extent of their creativity. You can justify it all you want, but there are just as many ways to justify MORE diversity and MORE creativity. Why settle for the former?

And yes you're 100% right: The Elder Scrolls has only gotten more generic since Oblivion, but Zenimax had an OPPORTUNITY to reverse this by showing us a place we had never seen. What did we get? Another European forest with European cities. Never seen that before.

The thing is that repetitiveness started long before ZOS. We have completely identical ayleid ruins from far north to far south (first in TES 4, then in ESO). We have completely identical dwemer ruins (first in TES 3, then in TES 5, then in ESO). We have completely identical daedric ruins (again, at least from TES 3, even when daedric lords are as different as Sheogorath and Mehrunes). The list goes on.

Morrowind was clearly different. The one and only purpose of Morrowind was playing on nostalgic feelings. Making Sadrith Mora, Vivec and Balmora in one style would be a huge PR disaster. It would completely ruin nostalgic feelings and prevent players from buying the chapter. ZOS could either implement what was realistically possible (and they sacrificed Redoran architecture in the process) or cut some parts of the island. Cutting would be against the purpose, so they had almost no choice but to recreate the styles of Vvardenfell cities.

That was simply impossible for Summerset (and Elsweyr). Not only there are no nostalgic reasons to do it, so there is (almost) no loss in not doing extra work, but the work is much bigger than for Morrowind. Vivec, Hlaalu and Telvanni architecture already established, there is no need to invent it. For Summerset (and Elsweyr) that should be done from sketches, from concept art, and that means even more cost than for Morrowind. Even so ZOS created two styles for both Summerset (old and modern) and Elsweyr (stone and wood). That is more than for most races of the base game.

As I said earlier, I don't need and I don't want diversity for the sake of diversity. Actually, diversity for the sake of diversity is bad. Skyrim is diversity for the sake of diversity (both in biomes (I am looking at you, Rift) and in architecture), and it makes this place hard to believe in. Summerset (and Elsweyr) cities are much more believable with just two styles that are mixed and not divided, like in Morrowind or Skyrim.

Nomadic_Atmoran

psychotrip wrote: »

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

The issue is that Summerset doesnt even feel that tropical. Its so odd. It seems far more like a temperate, western european island than a tropical paradise in the southern hemisphere. And remember: even tropical islands have diverse biomes. I posted some pics of Hawaii a long time ago in this thread to illustrate this fact.

Also, the scale of Tamriel is bigger than what we see in game. Depending on your source, Summerset could be as big as Australia. That leaves plenty of room for multiple, diverse biomes.

But they chose not to do anything with any of that because they didn't have a previous game's worth of worldbuilding to piggyback off of like they did with Morrowind. So instead we got this. The apparent extent of ZOS's creativity. And now its canon forever.

Yup and two years of complaining about it hasn't made ZOS budge or Bethesda to announce that it isn't canon. Its been a whole lot of hot air for really nothing.

Aristocles22

If they wanted more diversity in Summerset's style, they could have made some areas in the less impressive "generic" Atmer style seen in Auridon and a few Altmer colonies (Haven, Marbruk, the Altmer embassy at Elden Root etc) and kept the rest in the more impressive "Disneyworld" style seen in-game. I suppose we should be glad they at least included some vaguely Greco-Roman ruins in Summerset, but that's about it. I guess the Cephorah Tower is nice. Looks like a seashell version of the Eiffel Tower, tbh. The Crystal Tower is also impressive, even if it is a bit bland.

blabliblargh

I'm in the middle of Summerset in term of questing and I really find the scenery, architecture and flora amazing.
Before that, I completed Morrowind and as much as I enjoyed it, it really felt like a theme park to me rather than something cohesive. It's the entirely opposite for Summerset, much more believable as a real place due to the seamless transition from one part of the isle to another. Maybe if the area was 4 times bigger or more there could be more variation, but for such a small island I do not think it would fit.

vilio11

psychotrip wrote: »

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

The issue is that Summerset doesnt even feel that tropical. Its so odd. It seems far more like a temperate, western european island than a tropical paradise in the southern hemisphere. And remember: even tropical islands have diverse biomes. I posted some pics of Hawaii a long time ago in this thread to illustrate this fact.

Also, the scale of Tamriel is bigger than what we see in game. Depending on your source, Summerset could be as big as Australia. That leaves plenty of room for multiple, diverse biomes.

But they chose not to do anything with any of that because they didn't have a previous game's worth of worldbuilding to piggyback off of like they did with Morrowind. So instead we got this. The apparent extent of ZOS's creativity. And now its canon forever.

Lets not forget that there were Japanese influences and aesthetics in the lore on the High Elves and in Summerset.
I saw zero Japanese aesthetics in Summerset chapter.

TheNuminous1

vilio11 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

The issue is that Summerset doesnt even feel that tropical. Its so odd. It seems far more like a temperate, western european island than a tropical paradise in the southern hemisphere. And remember: even tropical islands have diverse biomes. I posted some pics of Hawaii a long time ago in this thread to illustrate this fact.

Also, the scale of Tamriel is bigger than what we see in game. Depending on your source, Summerset could be as big as Australia. That leaves plenty of room for multiple, diverse biomes.

But they chose not to do anything with any of that because they didn't have a previous game's worth of worldbuilding to piggyback off of like they did with Morrowind. So instead we got this. The apparent extent of ZOS's creativity. And now its canon forever.

Lets not forget that there were Japanese influences and aesthetics in the lore on the High Elves and in Summerset.
I saw zero Japanese aesthetics in Summerset chapter.

Except for the wisteria and the cherry blossoms.

TheNuminous1

And the Japanese Maples

vilio11

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

And the Japanese Maples

And no Japanese traditional clothing

vilio11

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

The issue is that Summerset doesnt even feel that tropical. Its so odd. It seems far more like a temperate, western european island than a tropical paradise in the southern hemisphere. And remember: even tropical islands have diverse biomes. I posted some pics of Hawaii a long time ago in this thread to illustrate this fact.

Also, the scale of Tamriel is bigger than what we see in game. Depending on your source, Summerset could be as big as Australia. That leaves plenty of room for multiple, diverse biomes.

But they chose not to do anything with any of that because they didn't have a previous game's worth of worldbuilding to piggyback off of like they did with Morrowind. So instead we got this. The apparent extent of ZOS's creativity. And now its canon forever.

Yup and two years of complaining about it hasn't made ZOS budge or Bethesda to announce that it isn't canon. Its been a whole lot of hot air for really nothing.

I do not think that Bethesda can do decanonization.

Parasaurolophus

vilio11 wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Summerset has a bit of diversity when it comes to terrain, bit aside from the land coral areas, it basically boils down to "areas with many trees vs. areas without many trees" and "mountains and hills vs. plains." Skyrim has far more diversity:

Falkreath: Dense green forests
Whiterun: Plains surrounded by mountains. I guess it's a flat valley?
The Rift: A forest which seems like it is trapped in the autumn with a big lake at the center
The Reach: Landlocked mountains
Haafingar: Coastal mountains dominated by a gigantic natural arch.
Hjaalmarch: A swamp surrounded by woods
The Pale: Snowy tundra with a coastline
Winterhold: Glacial tundra with mountains and a coastline
Eastmarch: Volcanic plains (note the hot springs) with forest and a snowy northern section.

Summerset could have done much, much more. Maybe one section of forest could have had a different color than the other sections of woodlands, or maybe there could have been an expanse of flat land in the otherwise mountainous center of the island. Perhaps there could have been an area with trees which somewhat resemble those of Valenwood, hinting at a connection given the relatively close geographic proximity of the two provinces, or hint that the trees of Valenwood were derived from a forest in Summerset or vice-versa. If they wanted to really mess around with us, said giant trees could have looked like smaller versions of Valenwood's trees but have qualities somewhat like the Hist, hinting at a possible connection between all three, as if the Summerset trees were the ancestors of both sets of unusual plants.

The tropical location more or less rules out a complete desert and absolutely rules out snowy areas not in the mountains, but maybe a snowy plateau could have been a location from which we could have looked down on the otherwise tropical environment. I suppose Eton Nir has a bit of this, but Cloudrest (the city we go to there) isn't really a snowy place.

And don't forget the other way, going down. Perhaps we could have had a deep canyon filled with greenery and a village built into the sides of the cliffs, or the ruins of one, at least. I could go on. Point is, if I can come up with some original ideas, ZoS can as well. It's not like most of what I suggested would break the budget.

The issue is that Summerset doesnt even feel that tropical. Its so odd. It seems far more like a temperate, western european island than a tropical paradise in the southern hemisphere. And remember: even tropical islands have diverse biomes. I posted some pics of Hawaii a long time ago in this thread to illustrate this fact.

Also, the scale of Tamriel is bigger than what we see in game. Depending on your source, Summerset could be as big as Australia. That leaves plenty of room for multiple, diverse biomes.

But they chose not to do anything with any of that because they didn't have a previous game's worth of worldbuilding to piggyback off of like they did with Morrowind. So instead we got this. The apparent extent of ZOS's creativity. And now its canon forever.

Yup and two years of complaining about it hasn't made ZOS budge or Bethesda to announce that it isn't canon. Its been a whole lot of hot air for really nothing.

I do not think that Bethesda can do decanonization.

Honestly, at first I also did not understand why such a direction was chosen for the architecture of Summerset. But from time to time I fell in love with him. I loved these neo-romantic castles and gardens. I have not yet seen such elves, with such a beautiful but very strict architecture I have not yet seen, but it turned out original. I think it's better than like this

or like this

Bcs i think i so generic

Jeffrey530

vilio11 wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

And the Japanese Maples

And no Japanese traditional clothing

Thats ONE aspect of japanese influence, so stop with your lies since there is japanese influence, is it enough then it is another debate. For me, high elves in japanese kimono will be so strange.