Summerset architecture.

psychotrip

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

ZOS recently explained their logic behind the architecture:

Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Makes perfect sense.

We discussed this on the previous two pages. Scroll back.

Hymzir

siebener wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

siebener wrote: »

People should start to realize that making an early conclusion then the tell to other people loudly that "the series has been destroyed/it's not x series anymore/it sucks because It doesn't match from what I have imagined" even before touching the game itself is ridiculous. Just because you don't like the architecture of a specific race, doesn't mean the entire series sucks and should be ashamed. At least wait for the chapter to be released before making any conclusions, just because you don't like the architecture doesn't mean everything on Summerset or Elder Scrolls in general sucks. Patience is the key before you make a final conclusion.

ZOS did a great job at making new interesting lore, retconning stuffs and make other races and cultures (Orcs, Khajiits, Argonians, Clockwork City, Hew's Bane, The Gold Coast, Craglorn/The Nedes) interesting and fixing other mistakes from the previous series ----> ok cool (just it)


ZOS made the Altmers architecture seems mundane and generic and the game hasn't been released yet ----> I HATE IT! THIS IS NOT ELDER SCROLLS ANYMORE! ZOS IS RUINING ELDER SCROLLS! AND I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW (although they haven't tried the game yet)

Well... People could also not go for the hyperbole when someone criticizes some aspect of the game. People could realize, that being critical about something is not the same as whining about it not being identical to one's personal vision. Or how about this for an even more radical thought: Just because one thinks that there is room for improvement for one aspect of the whole, doesn't mean that everything about it sucks, and the series as a whole is bad. It just means that the one aspect in question could've been implemented better.

There are some who do feel that this is a betrayal of core values of Elder Scroll universe, that the series is locked into a downwards spiral, and that the quality of the series as a whole suffers. And that's perfectly valid opinion too. If that is their opinion, then that is how they feel. If you do not share that opinion then good for you, but it's pretty pointless to start making claims about how they are not in a position to make such claims. Because obviously they are. Because that is how they feel. Past content for the game, and the way ZOS previously has handled things, is more than enough for people to come to whatever conclusion they do come to.

Them sharing their opinions does not mean that they are attacking you for liking what you like. It is just them telling that they do not like this, and if they do not tell this, then how would the people at ZOS ever learn what their customers think about how they are doing. If you like things then go ahead and tell ZOS, but even more important is to speak up when you think they have erred.

It's not for us in the public to decide which stance is right, but for ZOS to evaluate the response their latest offering generates and then use that feedback to make informed decisions regarding future content.

So no... The game does not suck because Altmer architecture is Gothic. Nor is it about their vision matching with one's own. It's about criticizing their design choice.

Having gone through several hours worth of footage, both from official sources as well as various Youtubers, I can confidently say that I do not like the Summerset architecture. It reminds me too much of the real world and it doesn't match the existing high elf architecture in the game, nor does it fit anything established previously about their culture.

I also challenge the notion of the impossibly tall towers, though I do reserve some judgement on that issue for firsthand experience. I may be proven wrong on that, but based on the available evidence I just am not in any sort of awe about the buildings height.

Just because I feel this way doesn't mean I think the game is now rubbish. I just think the architecture is based on a botched design concept.

I also realize that it's quite normal for those who love the game and the series as a whole to feel any criticism as an attack on a general level on the game they care so much about. However, people are not bashing the game as a whole due to the style of architecture they went with. There's lot of other reasons to bash the game and stuff to be grumpy about. But that is neither here nor now. This thread is about the architecture not about general review of the state of the game and the franchise as a whole. Although if you are unhappy with the general status of the game, then uninspiring design choices will not help the games case.

Based on what people have said here, and on reddit and various other places around the internet, I think I can safely say that the design choice has not been well received.

Some are genuinely angry that the look is so mundane compared to what was alluded in the lore, and while I am not one of them, I can understand where they are coming from. And I personally would've been quite happy to have explored sucha version of Summerset. 'Cause the tidbits of sparse lore available, and the datamined bits about earlier design ideas, really sound like they would've made fro one seriously memorable experience.

Lot of people seem to just be bummed out how boring and European it looks. And I'm one of them. I wanted to see something different, something not based on real world architecture and be something new and unique.

The majority of people don't really mind, they don't really have a problem with it. They don't have a vested interested in ESO lore, and are just looking for fun entertainment. They might point out to various in universe reasons to justify it, or talk about the quality of the models and textures and the design in general. But even then, they are not really defending the Gothic aesthetics. It's just that they don't mind it and it doesn't really bother them that much. If the game had gone with something more adventurous, something more imaginative, they wouldn't have a problem with that either.

It's a really rare individual who truly thinks that it's a smashing success. The number of people who think, that this is what High elf cities should look like, seem to be fairly low, and most who seam to take this stance seem to be fans who are just overreacting to criticism on general level.

But to sum it up - criticizing one aspect of the game doe not equate to bashing the whole. Most of us are not claiming that it looks bad, most of us are saying it looks bland. And there is difference between the two. Some of us are saddened and frustrated by the wasted opportunity and what could've been. Most of us will still buy it and play through it, but we are just feeling bit bummed out since it wont be as unique and memorable experiences it could've been. If you like what hey offered then good for you, but do try to understand that there is a significant amount of players who do not think that way. And we are just letting ZOS know hoe we feel. And we do that because we too care about the game.

Did you read my previous post? I wasn't talking about people who have shown discontent about Summerset's architecture or upset with what we will get in the chapter in general. Even in my honest opinion, the Altmer's architecture is mundane and kinda boring, and I agree with some opinions on this forum.

I WAS talking about people who have shown some discontents in an extreme level, calling the series as "not Elder Scrolls what we known of", "the series is ruined", "transcription errors", "it's dead", "there's no hope" despite the only Elder Scrolls game which take place in a bizzare setting is Morrowind and the rest of it take place in rather mundane settings, or even spread made-up facts and misinformations like "everything unique about them at least was retconned", "varlines, kinhouse concepts, sunbirds are scrapped" or the "Altmers aren't magically advanced" and more. Those are some made up statements that came from just watching some demo footages which haven't shown any plots or narratives, and ironically some of this actions were done in a regular basis by someone on this forum.

Even outside this forum, there are some death threats pointed to ZOS creative team because they don't like the depiction of Altmer's architecture.

Showing a disappointment is fine and encouraged, but spreading misinformations because you don't like it and calling the whole franchise "sucks" both directly and indirectly? Just because most people don't bash the game because of their disappointment, that doesn't mean people who are bashing the series as whole because they don't like the depiction of the architecture don't exist.

I have read every post in this thread, but I was not responding to your previous post. I responded to the post I quoted. I did go of on a tangent then, and expanded what I wanted to say, to include some of the other thoughts that have been occupying my mind concerning this topic.

However, since you wrote on a general level, I also responded on a general level. You opened with "people should" and then made a sweeping generalization that the doom sayers gloom is because Summerset "doesn't match from what (they) have imagined" which I have not found to be the case.

Those that maintain things going downhills seem, at least to my experience, base such opinion on a continued trend in the way things have been implemented. And if that is the way they feel, then that is the way they feel. And if the architecture in Summerset is the proverbial final nail in the coffin, then it is the bit that broke the camels back, and it is uncalled to say that they should be ashamed for coming to such conclusion before playing the expansion.

If you disagree with specific opinions and statements made by a specific person, then respond to their posts and try to engage them in dialogue. Perhaps there is more to their negativity than the bit that triggered it. Maybe there is a wider base for their disappointment than the topic the discussion revolves around. Maybe such dialogue will help them to see the bigger picture and modify their stance on the topic. Or, who knows, maybe you will come to understand their point of view, even if you still maintain an opposite position on the subject.

As for people who over react - well of course they exist, but there is no reason to over react to other peoples over the top antics. At the end of the day, the fact remains, that there is now more than ample sources of various videos showcasing the architecture of Summerset, and it is perfectly plausible to base an informed opinion on those sources, and to derive the conclusion that it sucks. And if that is the thing that finally drags the game to be a net failure for some person, then that is the bit that did, and it's perfectly reasonable for them to vent their frustrations. If the game is still a net positive for you, then you can always say that you still find more good than bad, but no point to attack those who feel differently. Because they will still feel that way and there is nothing ridiculous about that.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

OrdoHermetica wrote: »

Or... they're not, but they decided from a financial standpoint to go the cheaper, uninspired route. ZOS has pretty clearly demonstrated that short-term profit comes first when it comes to ESO, so it's quite possible the lore team is not even remotely happy about this but also doesn't really have a say in the matter.

This is a possibilty I hadn't considered. ZOS has proven they can do marvelous things; Orsinium was fantastic, a lot of the delves in Vvardenfell and Craglorn are vast and beautiful and interesting. Choosing not to spend the budget to make Summerset reach that bar would explain why they decided to go with something so out-of-place and uninspiring, and has disturbing implications for future content.

grizzledcroc

I do hope we find out who built the cephora tower.

ArcVelarian

Please also be aware that Alinor gets raized to the ground by the Numidium at the end of the Second Era. So what the Imperial author is describing could be what it looked like after the Elves rebuilt everything.

VerboseQuips

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Yeah, sure. But going back to Summerset architecture, I still think it's a boring [snip] design and concept.

I wouldn't say it's lazy. I think they're beautiful, and I think the artists had to put a lot of work into it to make them. Those would have been amazing Breton cities.

The problem is its inaccuracy with the existing lore. At this point, my guess is that the very alien Altmer stuff was deemed inadequate for ESO audience by some market-studying commerical people. So... its rather faulty, ill-oriented decision, in my opinion, but I wouldn't call it artistic laziness.

[edited to remove quote]

psychotrip

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Please also be aware that Alinor gets raized to the ground by the Numidium at the end of the Second Era. So what the Imperial author is describing could be what it looked like after the Elves rebuilt everything.

Except the author was describing Alinor before Septim conquered Summerset. Speaking of which, the entire narrative of "Septim took over all of Tamriel, but he needed Numidium to conquer Summerset" is now pretty much gone. According to ZOS's own words, the Altmer were never all that advanced to begin with, so it makes me wonder why Septim was so reluctant to fight them in the first place after he had conquered the rest of the known world.

The Underking tells him that, with the Tribunal dead, Septim might steal the Tribunal's power and use it against the High Elves (certainly the oldest enemies of Lorkhan, predating even the Tribunal). Summerset Isle is the farthest thing from Tiber Septim's mind. Even then, he was planning to send Zurin Arctus to the King of Alinor to make peace.

- The Arcturian Heresy

He was even planning on giving up on both Summerset and possibly abandoning Morrowind when he thought he wouldn't have the power of The Underking

Without the Underking's power, all ideas of conquering Tamriel vanish. Would've been nice, Septim thinks, but let's just worry about Cyrodiil and the human nations. Already there is a rebellion in Hammerfell.

While Zurin Arctus is raving about his discovery, the prophecy finally becomes clear to Tiber Septim. This Numidium is what he needs to conquer the world.

(Note Summerset was the only other major power left at this point)

As others have said in this thread, ZOS's portrayal of Summerset as just another nation of pig farmers, where magic doesn't really affect their lives, kind of diminishes the power of Tiber Septim and The Numidium, while making Morrowind seem like this bizarre, out of place, super-advanced exception to the supposedly "mundane" world of Tamriel.

MLGProPlayer

VerboseQuips wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Yeah, sure. But going back to Summerset architecture, I still think it's a boring [snip] design and concept.

I wouldn't say it's lazy. I think they're beautiful, and I think the artists had to put a lot of work into it to make them. Those would have been amazing Breton cities.

The problem is its inaccuracy with the existing lore. At this point, my guess is that the very alien Altmer stuff was deemed inadequate for ESO audience by some market-studying commerical people. So... its rather faulty, ill-oriented decision, in my opinion, but I wouldn't call it artistic laziness.

It was a lore decision to go with this architecture, not a commercial one.

- The architecture is more refined than Breton architecture
- Breton architecture is derived from Altmer architecture since they used to be their slaves; it would be lore-inappropriate if their architecture was not similar
- Descriptions of Summerset were embellished due to how closed off and remote the society was (much like exotic far off cities were embellished throughout actual human history); when one person is privy to seeing a new city, they will embellish the tale with colourful adjectives to make it sound more fanciful (i.e. cities of gold, towers that reach the clouds, etc.)
- The altmer are not "special"; they are mortals just like everyone else in Tamriel

[edited to remove quote]

WhiteCoatSyndrome

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It was a lore decision to go with this architecture, not a commercial one.

- The architecture is more refined than Breton architecture
- Breton architecture is derived from Altmer architecture since they used to be their slaves; it would be lore-inappropriate if their architecture was not similar
- Descriptions of Summerset were embellished due to how closed off and remote the society was (much like exotic far off cities were embellished throughout actual human history); when one person is privy to seeing a new city, they will embellish the tale with colourful adjectives to make it sound more fanciful (i.e. cities of gold, towers that reach the clouds, etc.)
- The altmer are not "special"; they are mortals just like everyone else in Tamriel

Except:
-Firsthold is the first settlement the Altmer made; we've seen the ruins, they're more Ayleid than anything
-The Bretons also get influence from however many Nedic tribes were conquered; it's unrealistic to expect the Altmer to pick up architecture from the people they enslaved when they're already convinced their ancestors did everything better
-The fellow describing Altmer architecture wasn't bragging, he was complaining, and it makes no sense to complain about architectural features that don't exist
-The Altmer enslaved the people who put the stars in the sky and are one of only two cultures to have had a space program - recall that Reman Cyrodiil was mortal, Mannimarco was mortal when he kicked off the Planemeld, the Dwemer that made Numidium were mortal. Saying that any great swath of people are 'just mortals' is selling mortals incredibly short - it's like saying that all weather is just a little wind when you know that hurricanes exist.

Zenimax dropped the ball on this, and badly.

MLGProPlayer

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It was a lore decision to go with this architecture, not a commercial one.

- The architecture is more refined than Breton architecture
- Breton architecture is derived from Altmer architecture since they used to be their slaves; it would be lore-inappropriate if their architecture was not similar
- Descriptions of Summerset were embellished due to how closed off and remote the society was (much like exotic far off cities were embellished throughout actual human history); when one person is privy to seeing a new city, they will embellish the tale with colourful adjectives to make it sound more fanciful (i.e. cities of gold, towers that reach the clouds, etc.)
- The altmer are not "special"; they are mortals just like everyone else in Tamriel

Except:
-Firsthold is the first settlement the Altmer made; we've seen the ruins, they're more Ayleid than anything
-The Bretons also get influence from however many Nedic tribes were conquered; it's unrealistic to expect the Altmer to pick up architecture from the people they enslaved when they're already convinced their ancestors did everything better
-The fellow describing Altmer architecture wasn't bragging, he was complaining, and it makes no sense to complain about architectural features that don't exist
-The Altmer enslaved the people who put the stars in the sky and are one of only two cultures to have had a space program - recall that Reman Cyrodiil was mortal, Mannimarco was mortal when he kicked off the Planemeld, the Dwemer that made Numidium were mortal. Saying that any great swath of people are 'just mortals' is selling mortals incredibly short - it's like saying that all weather is just a little wind when you know that hurricanes exist.

Zenimax dropped the ball on this, and badly.

We see Nedic architecture in Craglorn. Breton architecture looks nothing like it.

Both Bretons and Imperials derived their architecture from the Altmer and Ayleids since they were slaves to them. Imperial architecture looks like Ayleid architecture. Breton architecture looks like Altmer architecture.

grizzledcroc

I mean people keep saying zos dropped the ball but in the end it's gonna be populare and people will keep posting screens about how pretty it is and people will love what weird lore it has and as the cyrodill outrage from oblivion it will be a distant memory that won't effect anything period. At this point the thread is providing nothing but repeated back and fourth about the same things over and over again .Fact of the matter is most people don't know what the Altmer should or what have been because most arnt exposed to that text from years and years ago . I'm not trying to downplay the complaints but just factually this is gonna end up fading away into obscurity.

Faulgor

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

It was a lore decision to go with this architecture, not a commercial one.

- The architecture is more refined than Breton architecture
- Breton architecture is derived from Altmer architecture since they used to be their slaves; it would be lore-inappropriate if their architecture was not similar
- Descriptions of Summerset were embellished due to how closed off and remote the society was (much like exotic far off cities were embellished throughout actual human history); when one person is privy to seeing a new city, they will embellish the tale with colourful adjectives to make it sound more fanciful (i.e. cities of gold, towers that reach the clouds, etc.)
- The altmer are not "special"; they are mortals just like everyone else in Tamriel

Except:
-Firsthold is the first settlement the Altmer made; we've seen the ruins, they're more Ayleid than anything
-The Bretons also get influence from however many Nedic tribes were conquered; it's unrealistic to expect the Altmer to pick up architecture from the people they enslaved when they're already convinced their ancestors did everything better
-The fellow describing Altmer architecture wasn't bragging, he was complaining, and it makes no sense to complain about architectural features that don't exist
-The Altmer enslaved the people who put the stars in the sky and are one of only two cultures to have had a space program - recall that Reman Cyrodiil was mortal, Mannimarco was mortal when he kicked off the Planemeld, the Dwemer that made Numidium were mortal. Saying that any great swath of people are 'just mortals' is selling mortals incredibly short - it's like saying that all weather is just a little wind when you know that hurricanes exist.

Zenimax dropped the ball on this, and badly.

We see Nedic architecture in Craglorn. Breton architecture looks nothing like it.

Both Bretons and Imperials derived their architecture from the Altmer and Ayleids since they were slaves to them. Imperial architecture looks like Ayleid architecture. Breton architecture looks like Altmer architecture.

As WhiteCoatSyndrome pointed out, Breton architecture also looks nothing like Aldmer architecture seen in FIrsthold and other places in Auridon.
Imperial Architecture (which one, even? Anvil, Skingrad, Bravil, etc all look different) also looks nothing like Ayleid, outside the Imperial City which they directly took over and simply maintain.

VerboseQuips

There is some information about the new Altmer furnishing here.

TheNuminous1

grizzledcroc wrote: »

but in the end it's gonna be populare and people will keep posting screens about how pretty it is and people will love what weird lore it has.

You mean in the beginning. I basically gave up on this thread but My Orignal post was saying we should be happy about it. I love it. I think its beautiful and I can't wait.

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

grizzledcroc wrote: »

but in the end it's gonna be populare and people will keep posting screens about how pretty it is and people will love what weird lore it has.

You mean in the beginning. I basically gave up on this thread but My Orignal post was saying we should be happy about it. I love it. I think its beautiful and I can't wait.

I'm glad you like it, and I understand why. I hope you can understand why others don't.

Donari

Of interest: I found see-through glass windows. These pics don't do justice to it (between screenshot then windows snipping tool, they are lower rez and don't show the well done translucence as you shift your view) but .... see-through! Glass! So they *can* do that, and maybe there will be furnishings or even house structures that use that tech.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255428239227486209/436231133919838239/Greenhouse01.JPG
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/255428239227486209/436231160310398976/Greenhouse02.JPG

Claudman

This all can be summed up with TWO WORDS.

Unreliable Narrator.

I know it's scary, but you must remember these books are written by regular people in the lore. The accuracy of the book depends heavily upon the writer of the book.

Simply ask yourself this...Who would you trust? A Kinlord from Summerset? Or an Imperial Scholar?

psychotrip

Claudman wrote: »

This all can be summed up with TWO WORDS.

Unreliable Narrator.

I know it's scary, but you must remember these books are written by regular people in the lore. The accuracy of the book depends heavily upon the writer of the book.

Simply ask yourself this...Who would you trust? A Kinlord from Summerset? Or an Imperial Scholar?

Read my signature.

As I've said numerous times in this thread: the unreliable narrator trope is being used a crutch at this point to retro-actively justify any bit of artistic or narrative laziness by the developers. Of course, we can chalk anything up to "unreliable narrators" in-universe. I'm talking about their reasoning for this in real life.

Zenimax gets to choose what lore is real and which isn't. When it comes to Summerset, they've gone with the most mundane interpretation of the lore at every turn.

I swear, if Zenimax made TES: III, the Tribunal wouldn't be gods, the heart of lorkhan would be a big jewel, Akulakhan would just be a statue, and the Telvanni would live in pyramids.

This is just boring, creatively bankrupt worldbuilding. There is absolutely nothing distinguishing Summerset or the Altmer from any other generic medieval european-inspired high elves.

Claudman

psychotrip wrote: »

-snip-

If you want a setting that directly tells you lore, I would recommend Dungeons and Dragons.

The Elder Scrolls has unreliable narrator because it's trying to take a realistic spin to how people in the universe discuss information. You absolutely cannot rely heavily on everything someone tells you in dialog or books. People lie and have their own opinions to how things work.

It's not for everyone, but eventually you get your direct answers. For example, the interviews of certain characters like Demiprince Fa-Nuit-Hen...And characters who clearly know what they're talking about.

I personally prefer things that are mundane.
If we don't have things that are mundane then...We get Micheal Kirkbride. No offense to MK, but c0da was...Something else.

Nelson_Rebel

Menelaos wrote: »

It's not only from a lore or ingame persepctive, mind you. It's also what ZOS feels the pinnacle of Elven culture on Nirn (at least in 2E 583) should look like. Rich said something like "Everything the do, they do best. Because they can and because they had the time to do it."

I think that's where folks find it over- or underwhelming. Something like 5.000 years (give and take) of evolving architecture looks like... this?

Can't blame folks who say "no" to it, although I find it okayish in most parts.

This exactly.


It doesn't make any sense, the high elves have been here for Thousands of years and they are the ancestors of the Aldmer that first landed there. They ARE aldmer and have had hundreds of years per elf to perfect architecture and the Island around them.

To have crumbling ruins hand in hand with everything else about the island that has been mentioned for years ingame about summerset


They have easily retconned this land


Pure and simple. Nothing else

psychotrip

Claudman wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

-snip-

If you want a setting that directly tells you lore, I would recommend Dungeons and Dragons.

The Elder Scrolls has unreliable narrator because it's trying to take a realistic spin to how people in the universe discuss information. You absolutely cannot rely heavily on everything someone tells you in dialog or books. People lie and have their own opinions to how things work.

It's not for everyone, but eventually you get your direct answers. For example, the interviews of certain characters like Demiprince Fa-Nuit-Hen...And characters who clearly know what they're talking about.

I personally prefer things that are mundane.
If we don't have things that are mundane then...We get Micheal Kirkbride. No offense to MK, but c0da was...Something else.

This has absolutely nothing to do with directly telling us the lore. I feel like you're just trying to avoid the point here, especially considering you snipped my quote for no apparent reason.

The point is that at almost every turn, when Zenimax has a choice on how to interpret the lore, they choose the most boring, mundane, "normal" interpretation they possibly can. I honestly thought they were getting better with this lately, especially with things like the Clockwork City.

But when it comes to the Altmer, Zenimax doesn't have a single original idea, nor do they have an interesting spin on an established idea. Instead, they chose the most boring interpretation of the lore they possibly could. There is nothing that separates the Summerset Isles from any other generic pretty forest, and there's nothing that separates the Altmer nor their culture from any other generic high elven race that you'd find in a knock-off Dungeons and Dragons homebrew campaign.

MornaBaine

inespeloazul wrote: »

I 100% expected something like this from Bethesda, and for some reason thought Zenimax was above it. Sure, the vanilla game was underwhelming and kinda ugly, but Wrothgar and Hew's Bane made it seem like they were getting the hang of it. That they had such an amazing concept for the Province pre-launch and then decided to toss it out and model the entire island after a city that should have influenced the architecture in High Rock instead of here kills any faith I had for them.

It's Oblivion 2.0.

(I mean, true, the lore and story that we get might actually be pretty cool and to be fair the architecture is pretty rad, but it's horribly obvious they took the safe route, technical limitations or no. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.)

You know I like Summerset a lot.... EXACTLY because it seems more like a really pretty Highrock to me. Right now I am derping around with all the new furnishings in... the Daggerfall Overlook Breton castle. And it looks JUST RIGHT. Those furnishings are real world HIGH MIDDLE AGES which is exactly the vibe Highrock and Breton culture has. And even as I am loving it part of me is wondering, "WHY DID YOU DO THIS ZENI?" I am really sorry for all the hardcore High Elf enthusiasts out there.

Claudman

psychotrip wrote: »

-snip-

I snipped your quote because it was very long for a post.

I think you need to relax, this is coming from someone who's been a fan of the Elder Scrolls for a veeeery long time. I'm fine with things being normal, it's honestly a nice change of pace personally. To each their own I guess. When I think alien structures personally, I only think about the Dunmer and Saxhleel. After all, this is their IP and they are free to do whatever they want with it. It's a bit too late to complain with how things look. Believe me, the description sounded awesome when I read that book describing it waaaay back when and very abstract...But, I've already grown to accept how Summerset looks now...Considering it makes sense seeing how Falmer and Ayleid structures look which are based on the regal Aldmeri design.

Claudman

I'm more concerned about gameplay features regarding Summerset. Are they finally going to make overworld tougher?

InstantNoise

Honestly if this is all that can be done in a year I'd be willing to wait longer for summerset.

TelvanniWizard

InstantNoise wrote: »

Honestly if this is all that can be done in a year I'd be willing to wait longer for summerset.

I don´t like it. Thus I´m not buying it. Perhaps we´ll get it for free when next year´s chapter arrives.

Kajuratus

Claudman wrote: »

This all can be summed up with TWO WORDS.

Unreliable Narrator.

I know it's scary, but you must remember these books are written by regular people in the lore. The accuracy of the book depends heavily upon the writer of the book.

Simply ask yourself this...Who would you trust? A Kinlord from Summerset? Or an Imperial Scholar?

OK, heres the problem with relying on the unreliable narrator to rectify any and all retcons the series does. The unreliable narrator only works when we as the third party don't know the truth, and we never find out the truth. A good example is the death of Indoril Nerevar. Did he die from his wounds after his battle with Voryn Dagoth? Or was he murdered by the Tribunal? We'll never know the answer to that, and we never should. This kind of mystery makes the world more believeable, because there are multiple accounts of what actually happened, each from different parties with their own agendas, beliefs, and backgrounds.

Now compare that to this debacle about the glass city of Alinor. Theres only one book in the lore that describes Alinor's architecture, and thats in PGE 1. Yes, theres a reddit thread that details alot of what we know about Altmeri architecture, but relating specifically to Alinor, all we have is that oh so famous paragraph. Lets take a look at it.

A forbidden city for nearly fifty years, Alinor is both capital of the Summerset Isles and the heart of the Aldmeri Dominion. Human traders were only allowed at its ports, and they described the city as "made from glass or insect wings." Less fantastic accounts come from the Imperial emissaries of the Reman Dynasty, which describe the city as straight and glimmering, "a hypnotic swirl of ramparts and impossibly high towers, designed to catch the light of the sun and break it to its component colors, which lies draped across its stones until you are thankful for nightfall."

For the unreliable narrator to actually be effective here, both of these descriptions need to be adhered to. Now, the claim that the city is "made from glass or insect wings" come from human traders that were only allowed on the ports. Lets combine that with another account of "impossibly high towers", which were taken from Reman emissaries. From these two descriptions, we can surmise that the city has very high towers that from the port look like they're made from glass or insect wings. This unfortunately does not comply with what we've seen so far. How could human traders have mistaken the towers of the Queens palace for glass, or even insect wings? Do humans in Tamriel look at chapels with stainless glass windows and think to themselves "yep, thats a glass building right there"?

Now another trope that people like to think of when rushing to the unreliable narrator defense is that they were lying. Not only is this a terrible excuse, but it also harms the world that you're trying to build. Yes, lore should serve the story and not the other way around, but it should never be used to justify changing an artistic vision of a location for the sole reason that the audience would prefer mundane rather than alien. The "lying" excuse also doesn't make sense in this situation. Remember that the PGE 1 is an official document released by the Empire, so claiming that "well human traders were lying, so that makes the world realistic!" I feel is rather arrogant. "Less fantastic" doesn't mean it was false. Lets give an example. "Many human travellers passing by Ald'Ruhn claimed it to be the shell of a giant crab. Less fantastic accounts describe it as a beige coloured dome." Both of those accounts could be seen as the truth, with one being more fantastic than the other. Also the Reman emissaries clearly weren't lying since they were thankful for nightfall. Why would they complain about something that isn't there? Why exaggerate something you hate?

wolfxspice

wow this is still on the front page, i wonder what the art team is thinking. from the beginning I'v always said, "art team no.1 team in eso" they have made amazing looking armor, great dungeon atmosphere, and in all this time I'v only seen one thing that rubbed me the wrong way, (telvanni flesh towers) but from what I'v seen from the streamers, and the trailers, the buildings just look wrong.

Faulgor

Having seen most of Summerset's architecture up close now, I don't even hate it that much. It might have been fine for one of the other cities besides Alinor which we don't know too much about, say Lillandril, Shimmerene or Sunhold. Even the Aldmeri ruins, while a bit too close to Cyrodiilic designs, seem ancient and imposing enough to be interesting.

The trouble is that everything looks super generic. There's nothing that stands out as distinctly Altmeri, not in relation to other fantasy settings or other races in Tamriel. A Cyrodiilic cathedral would fit right in on Alinor's main plaza (which is curiously named after Reman for some bizarre reason). The only thing that is noteworthy is a statue to Auri-El in the monastery in Shimmerene, and that's it. On the whole island. Everything else could just as easily be set in High Rock or Colovia.

OrdoHermetica

Faulgor wrote: »

Having seen most of Summerset's architecture up close now, I don't even hate it that much. It might have been fine for one of the other cities besides Alinor which we don't know too much about, say Lillandril, Shimmerene or Sunhold. Even the Aldmeri ruins, while a bit too close to Cyrodiilic designs, seem ancient and imposing enough to be interesting.

The trouble is that everything looks super generic. There's nothing that stands out as distinctly Altmeri, not in relation to other fantasy settings or other races in Tamriel. A Cyrodiilic cathedral would fit right in on Alinor's main plaza (which is curiously named after Reman for some bizarre reason). The only thing that is noteworthy is a statue to Auri-El in the monastery in Shimmerene, and that's it. On the whole island. Everything else could just as easily be set in High Rock or Colovia.

Having seen the cities pretty thoroughly as well at this point: yep. It looks great, and if this was High Rock I'd be super impressed. This strikes me as exactly what Breton architecture should look like.

It legitimately seems less High Elf than Auridon, though. It's definitely well-done - the art team put some serious effort into it - but they just went a baffling direction with it. At least in my opinion.