Summerset architecture.

Aliyavana

Faulgor wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

[snip]

If you take racial bonuses and why they are there, take Altmers specifically as their attunement to magic and historical back drop; Then them not having a culture more distinct and reminiscent of a more divine/ancient time period makes no sense at all.

They don't need to be the same Elves in power that crafted the original landscape (for balance) but that doesn't mean their architecture should mimic everyone elses and be completely devoid of past relic and design either.

[snip] Considering how much effort (whether you like them or not) goes into the expansions of the other few top ranked mmorpg games like FFXIV et al; this is a pretty poor showing indeed.

His statement also rubs me in two other ways.
First, he says that the sources on the Altmer contradict each other, but there is no source that describes Altmeri cities as "basically what you see in High Rock". The only accounts of Summerset architecture are much more fantastical than this. They didn't just took these different sources and found a middle ground, they just threw them out.
And second, he presumes that just because a society is advanced, that would have caused them to conquer the whole continent. What shortisghted nonsense. That portrays Altmer isolationism as a mere consequence of lack of ability to dominate, when it has philosophical, metaphysical and dare I say it, magical roots. As if ability and intent were the same thing.

Oh and third, Altmer not being more advanced in possibly every way also conflicts with almost every instance they came into conflict with the rest of Tamriel. Even when they lost to Tiber Septim, they were the last province to fall, and their defeat wouldn't have stung their culture so deeply if it wasn't something previously unthinkable. This wounded cultural ego is essential to understand the history of Summerset and the whole of Tamriel in all the centuries that followed, especially the Great War that preceded TESV.
Thus, turning the Altmer into just another nation of pig farmers not only cheapens their own characterization, but also in contrast Tiber's and Numidium's legendary might, because after all, it didn't take that much to defeat the Altmer.

wasn't he the person that said "you don't have to be here?" as well

[edited to remove quote]

Faulgor

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

Having summerset be so mundane and ordinary, is akin to them saying 'Oh right.. well he's called dragonborn because it's the year of the dragon and that's when he was born

I really laughed out loud at that one, thanks.

aliyavana wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

[snip]

If you take racial bonuses and why they are there, take Altmers specifically as their attunement to magic and historical back drop; Then them not having a culture more distinct and reminiscent of a more divine/ancient time period makes no sense at all.

They don't need to be the same Elves in power that crafted the original landscape (for balance) but that doesn't mean their architecture should mimic everyone elses and be completely devoid of past relic and design either.

[snip] Considering how much effort (whether you like them or not) goes into the expansions of the other few top ranked mmorpg games like FFXIV et al; this is a pretty poor showing indeed.

His statement also rubs me in two other ways.
First, he says that the sources on the Altmer contradict each other, but there is no source that describes Altmeri cities as "basically what you see in High Rock". The only accounts of Summerset architecture are much more fantastical than this. They didn't just took these different sources and found a middle ground, they just threw them out.
And second, he presumes that just because a society is advanced, that would have caused them to conquer the whole continent. What shortisghted nonsense. That portrays Altmer isolationism as a mere consequence of lack of ability to dominate, when it has philosophical, metaphysical and dare I say it, magical roots. As if ability and intent were the same thing.

Oh and third, Altmer not being more advanced in possibly every way also conflicts with almost every instance they came into conflict with the rest of Tamriel. Even when they lost to Tiber Septim, they were the last province to fall, and their defeat wouldn't have stung their culture so deeply if it wasn't something previously unthinkable. This wounded cultural ego is essential to understand the history of Summerset and the whole of Tamriel in all the centuries that followed, especially the Great War that preceded TESV.
Thus, turning the Altmer into just another nation of pig farmers not only cheapens their own characterization, but also in contrast Tiber's and Numidium's legendary might, because after all, it didn't take that much to defeat the Altmer.

wasn't he the person that said "you don't have to be here?" as well

I don't remember the context of that quote?

[edited to remove quote]

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Faulgor wrote: »

And second, he presumes that just because a society is advanced, that would have caused them to conquer the whole continent. What shortisghted nonsense. That portrays Altmer isolationism as a mere consequence of lack of ability to dominate, when it has philosophical, metaphysical and dare I say it, magical roots. As if ability and intent were the same thing.

That's an excellent point.

TelvanniWizard

Yeah, sure. But going back to Summerset architecture, I still think it's a boring [snip] design and concept.

[edited for bashing]

TheNuminous1

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

And to compare it to morrowind is silly. or to valenwood. any any other land Mer lived. Those elves only became what they are by being so different. Changing outside of the Aldmeri way. So of course your going to have unique different buildings on vvardenfell. those elves have changed so many times.

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition. So that lends to all the towns and buildings being the same style. If the First way is the best way why would any Altmeri settlement do things differently?

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

And to compare it to morrowind is silly. or to valenwood. any any other land Mer lived. Those elves only became what they are by being so different. Changing outside of the Aldmeri way. So of course your going to have unique different buildings on vvardenfell. those elves have changed so many times.

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition. So that lends to all the towns and buildings being the same style. If the First way is the best way why would any Altmeri settlement do things differently?

Dude at this point you’re not seeing it because you don’t want to see it. After we’ve explained the multiple interpretations and examples of potential high elf architecture in the lore, you still don’t see it. You seem to conflate “staying the same” with “looking more or less normal from a human perspective”. I’m sorry, but this is just nonsense. If anything, the fact that Altmer stay closest to their elven heritage means their cities should less human.

Yes, human society is based on altmer principles of math, engineering, law, etc. But that doesn’t mean humans just copy-pasted their cities. Altmer are just humans with pointy ears now, completely inconsistent with the creative strangeness of bosmer and dunmer. To emphasize: they feel closer to humans than elves at this point.

Your argument for cities looking the same is nonsense as well. Again, it’s another contrived excuse for artistic laziness and poor worldbuilding. Why, out of all the things ZOS chose to de-emphasize and water down, would they take the Altmer’s desire to keep things the same to such an extreme that they conveniently only have one building style? By that logic, why not just have a single building? This is just silly, dude. Even if we are to beloeve that ZOS is committed to this idea of “altmer preserving things and keeping things the same”, then this is inconsistent with with all the ruins scattered everywhere, but I’ll get to that later.

The fact remains that, regardless of any interpretations or crazy expectations we may have had (which were still based on logical assumption), Summerset is completely visually inconsistent with everything we’ve seen from altmer in every previous game. How is this the same race that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? Where’s the organic shapes and abstract animal forms? Clearly altmer don’t look “normal” when it comes to their weapons and armor, so why should their cities?

We’ve shown you so many potential alternatives that are based on descriptions from
the lore. Many of them are examples from REAL LIFE so you can’t pull the “it’s not realistic” card on us.

The fact is, ZOS chose to go with the most boring interpretation possible. Can you
please tell me what, if anything, makes the Altmer unique or distinct in any way? Or even if they’re not unique, can you tell me what makes them stand out amidst similar high elves from other IPs?

Now ZOS is claiming that they’re not even particularly magically advanced, which flies in the face of their one core aspect. It’s even in their stats for goodness sake. According to ZOS, the Psijiics didn’t even build their own tower, so the one cool aspect of their architecture isn’t even theirs.

I get it if you just like it this way, but you’re feigning ignorance if you can’t even see our perspective at this point.

And by your own logic you’re admitting how little sense it makes for Summerset to be littered with ruins, another problem we’re having. If they’re all about staying the same and preservation, what’s with all the ruins?

Again, it’s fine if you disagree with us, but it’s intellectually dishonest to say you don’t get where we’re coming from at this point. I can see your perspective, but you don’t seem
to even want to see ours. There’s no point to discussing this with you if we’re just going to go in these circles.

TheNuminous1

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

And to compare it to morrowind is silly. or to valenwood. any any other land Mer lived. Those elves only became what they are by being so different. Changing outside of the Aldmeri way. So of course your going to have unique different buildings on vvardenfell. those elves have changed so many times.

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition. So that lends to all the towns and buildings being the same style. If the First way is the best way why would any Altmeri settlement do things differently?

Dude at this point you’re not seeing it because you don’t want to see it. After we’ve explained the multiple interpretations and examples of potential high elf architecture in the lore, you still don’t see it. You seem to conflate “staying the same” with “looking more or less normal from a human perspective”. I’m sorry, but this is just nonsense. If anything, the fact that Altmer stay closest to their elven heritage means their cities should less human.

Yes, human society is based on altmer principles of math, engineering, law, etc. But that doesn’t mean humans just copy-pasted their cities. Altmer are just humans with pointy ears now, completely inconsistent with the creative strangeness of bosmer and dunmer. To emphasize: they feel closer to humans than elves at this point.

Your argument for cities looking the same is nonsense as well. Again, it’s another contrived excuse for artistic laziness and poor worldbuilding. Why, out of all the things ZOS chose to de-emphasize and water down, would they take the Altmer’s desire to keep things the same to such an extreme that they conveniently only have one building style? By that logic, why not just have a single building? This is just silly, dude. Even if we are to beloeve that ZOS is committed to this idea of “altmer preserving things and keeping things the same”, then this is inconsistent with with all the ruins scattered everywhere, but I’ll get to that later.

The fact remains that, regardless of any interpretations or crazy expectations we may have had (which were still based on logical assumption), Summerset is completely visually inconsistent with everything we’ve seen from altmer in every previous game. How is this the same race that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? Where’s the organic shapes and abstract animal forms? Clearly altmer don’t look “normal” when it comes to their weapons and armor, so why should their cities?

We’ve shown you so many potential alternatives that are based on descriptions from
the lore. Many of them are examples from REAL LIFE so you can’t pull the “it’s not realistic” card on us.

The fact is, ZOS chose to go with the most boring interpretation possible. Can you
please tell me what, if anything, makes the Altmer unique or distinct in any way? Or even if they’re not unique, can you tell me what makes them stand out amidst similar high elves from other IPs?

Now ZOS is claiming that they’re not even particularly magically advanced, which flies in the face of their one core aspect. It’s even in their stats for goodness sake. According to ZOS, the Psijiics didn’t even build their own tower, so the one cool aspect of their architecture isn’t even theirs.

I get it if you just like it this way, but you’re feigning ignorance if you can’t even see our perspective at this point.

And by your own logic you’re admitting how little sense it makes for Summerset to be littered with ruins, another problem we’re having. If they’re all about staying the same and preservation, what’s with all the ruins?

Again, it’s fine if you disagree with us, but it’s intellectually dishonest to say you don’t get where we’re coming from at this point. I can see your perspective, but you don’t seem
to even want to see ours. There’s no point to discussing this with you if we’re just going to go in these circles.

well I think Summerset is beautiful ans your claim that its boring is a personal one. Does not speak for everyones thoughts on summerset. Im sorry your so let down but ill be spending many weeks and months on summersets shores with nothing but joy and happiness in my heart. Must suck for you to not get that same feeling.

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

And to compare it to morrowind is silly. or to valenwood. any any other land Mer lived. Those elves only became what they are by being so different. Changing outside of the Aldmeri way. So of course your going to have unique different buildings on vvardenfell. those elves have changed so many times.

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition. So that lends to all the towns and buildings being the same style. If the First way is the best way why would any Altmeri settlement do things differently?

Dude at this point you’re not seeing it because you don’t want to see it. After we’ve explained the multiple interpretations and examples of potential high elf architecture in the lore, you still don’t see it. You seem to conflate “staying the same” with “looking more or less normal from a human perspective”. I’m sorry, but this is just nonsense. If anything, the fact that Altmer stay closest to their elven heritage means their cities should less human.

Yes, human society is based on altmer principles of math, engineering, law, etc. But that doesn’t mean humans just copy-pasted their cities. Altmer are just humans with pointy ears now, completely inconsistent with the creative strangeness of bosmer and dunmer. To emphasize: they feel closer to humans than elves at this point.

Your argument for cities looking the same is nonsense as well. Again, it’s another contrived excuse for artistic laziness and poor worldbuilding. Why, out of all the things ZOS chose to de-emphasize and water down, would they take the Altmer’s desire to keep things the same to such an extreme that they conveniently only have one building style? By that logic, why not just have a single building? This is just silly, dude. Even if we are to beloeve that ZOS is committed to this idea of “altmer preserving things and keeping things the same”, then this is inconsistent with with all the ruins scattered everywhere, but I’ll get to that later.

The fact remains that, regardless of any interpretations or crazy expectations we may have had (which were still based on logical assumption), Summerset is completely visually inconsistent with everything we’ve seen from altmer in every previous game. How is this the same race that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? Where’s the organic shapes and abstract animal forms? Clearly altmer don’t look “normal” when it comes to their weapons and armor, so why should their cities?

We’ve shown you so many potential alternatives that are based on descriptions from
the lore. Many of them are examples from REAL LIFE so you can’t pull the “it’s not realistic” card on us.

The fact is, ZOS chose to go with the most boring interpretation possible. Can you
please tell me what, if anything, makes the Altmer unique or distinct in any way? Or even if they’re not unique, can you tell me what makes them stand out amidst similar high elves from other IPs?

Now ZOS is claiming that they’re not even particularly magically advanced, which flies in the face of their one core aspect. It’s even in their stats for goodness sake. According to ZOS, the Psijiics didn’t even build their own tower, so the one cool aspect of their architecture isn’t even theirs.

I get it if you just like it this way, but you’re feigning ignorance if you can’t even see our perspective at this point.

And by your own logic you’re admitting how little sense it makes for Summerset to be littered with ruins, another problem we’re having. If they’re all about staying the same and preservation, what’s with all the ruins?

Again, it’s fine if you disagree with us, but it’s intellectually dishonest to say you don’t get where we’re coming from at this point. I can see your perspective, but you don’t seem
to even want to see ours. There’s no point to discussing this with you if we’re just going to go in these circles.

well I think Summerset is beautiful ans your claim that its boring is a personal one. Does not speak for everyones thoughts on summerset. Im sorry your so let down but ill be spending many weeks and months on summersets shores with nothing but joy and happiness in my heart. Must suck for you to not get that same feeling.

Meh. There’s plenty of other more artistic and narratively interesting games out there. I just grew up with this series, so it does kind of suck seeing them water down the world at every turn.

Hope you enjoy.

TheNuminous1

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

And to compare it to morrowind is silly. or to valenwood. any any other land Mer lived. Those elves only became what they are by being so different. Changing outside of the Aldmeri way. So of course your going to have unique different buildings on vvardenfell. those elves have changed so many times.

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition. So that lends to all the towns and buildings being the same style. If the First way is the best way why would any Altmeri settlement do things differently?

Dude at this point you’re not seeing it because you don’t want to see it. After we’ve explained the multiple interpretations and examples of potential high elf architecture in the lore, you still don’t see it. You seem to conflate “staying the same” with “looking more or less normal from a human perspective”. I’m sorry, but this is just nonsense. If anything, the fact that Altmer stay closest to their elven heritage means their cities should less human.

Yes, human society is based on altmer principles of math, engineering, law, etc. But that doesn’t mean humans just copy-pasted their cities. Altmer are just humans with pointy ears now, completely inconsistent with the creative strangeness of bosmer and dunmer. To emphasize: they feel closer to humans than elves at this point.

Your argument for cities looking the same is nonsense as well. Again, it’s another contrived excuse for artistic laziness and poor worldbuilding. Why, out of all the things ZOS chose to de-emphasize and water down, would they take the Altmer’s desire to keep things the same to such an extreme that they conveniently only have one building style? By that logic, why not just have a single building? This is just silly, dude. Even if we are to beloeve that ZOS is committed to this idea of “altmer preserving things and keeping things the same”, then this is inconsistent with with all the ruins scattered everywhere, but I’ll get to that later.

The fact remains that, regardless of any interpretations or crazy expectations we may have had (which were still based on logical assumption), Summerset is completely visually inconsistent with everything we’ve seen from altmer in every previous game. How is this the same race that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? Where’s the organic shapes and abstract animal forms? Clearly altmer don’t look “normal” when it comes to their weapons and armor, so why should their cities?

We’ve shown you so many potential alternatives that are based on descriptions from
the lore. Many of them are examples from REAL LIFE so you can’t pull the “it’s not realistic” card on us.

The fact is, ZOS chose to go with the most boring interpretation possible. Can you
please tell me what, if anything, makes the Altmer unique or distinct in any way? Or even if they’re not unique, can you tell me what makes them stand out amidst similar high elves from other IPs?

Now ZOS is claiming that they’re not even particularly magically advanced, which flies in the face of their one core aspect. It’s even in their stats for goodness sake. According to ZOS, the Psijiics didn’t even build their own tower, so the one cool aspect of their architecture isn’t even theirs.

I get it if you just like it this way, but you’re feigning ignorance if you can’t even see our perspective at this point.

And by your own logic you’re admitting how little sense it makes for Summerset to be littered with ruins, another problem we’re having. If they’re all about staying the same and preservation, what’s with all the ruins?

Again, it’s fine if you disagree with us, but it’s intellectually dishonest to say you don’t get where we’re coming from at this point. I can see your perspective, but you don’t seem
to even want to see ours. There’s no point to discussing this with you if we’re just going to go in these circles.

well I think Summerset is beautiful ans your claim that its boring is a personal one. Does not speak for everyones thoughts on summerset. Im sorry your so let down but ill be spending many weeks and months on summersets shores with nothing but joy and happiness in my heart. Must suck for you to not get that same feeling.

Meh. There’s plenty of other more artistic and narratively interesting games out there. I just grew up with this series, so it does kind of suck seeing them water down the world at every turn.

Hope you enjoy.

its a mundane world in the first place and some people like it like that. I love that its sorta like real world earth with this odd flare to it. And ya I like how the Altmer are portrayed. You dont. i get it. I will enjoy literally every minute spent there. Sorry it didnt meet your standards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Pass the message to the design team that they did an amazing job and while there will always be someone to complain at least one loyal fan thinks your work is gorgeous and beautiful.

psychotrip

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

And to compare it to morrowind is silly. or to valenwood. any any other land Mer lived. Those elves only became what they are by being so different. Changing outside of the Aldmeri way. So of course your going to have unique different buildings on vvardenfell. those elves have changed so many times.

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition. So that lends to all the towns and buildings being the same style. If the First way is the best way why would any Altmeri settlement do things differently?

Dude at this point you’re not seeing it because you don’t want to see it. After we’ve explained the multiple interpretations and examples of potential high elf architecture in the lore, you still don’t see it. You seem to conflate “staying the same” with “looking more or less normal from a human perspective”. I’m sorry, but this is just nonsense. If anything, the fact that Altmer stay closest to their elven heritage means their cities should less human.

Yes, human society is based on altmer principles of math, engineering, law, etc. But that doesn’t mean humans just copy-pasted their cities. Altmer are just humans with pointy ears now, completely inconsistent with the creative strangeness of bosmer and dunmer. To emphasize: they feel closer to humans than elves at this point.

Your argument for cities looking the same is nonsense as well. Again, it’s another contrived excuse for artistic laziness and poor worldbuilding. Why, out of all the things ZOS chose to de-emphasize and water down, would they take the Altmer’s desire to keep things the same to such an extreme that they conveniently only have one building style? By that logic, why not just have a single building? This is just silly, dude. Even if we are to beloeve that ZOS is committed to this idea of “altmer preserving things and keeping things the same”, then this is inconsistent with with all the ruins scattered everywhere, but I’ll get to that later.

The fact remains that, regardless of any interpretations or crazy expectations we may have had (which were still based on logical assumption), Summerset is completely visually inconsistent with everything we’ve seen from altmer in every previous game. How is this the same race that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? Where’s the organic shapes and abstract animal forms? Clearly altmer don’t look “normal” when it comes to their weapons and armor, so why should their cities?

We’ve shown you so many potential alternatives that are based on descriptions from
the lore. Many of them are examples from REAL LIFE so you can’t pull the “it’s not realistic” card on us.

The fact is, ZOS chose to go with the most boring interpretation possible. Can you
please tell me what, if anything, makes the Altmer unique or distinct in any way? Or even if they’re not unique, can you tell me what makes them stand out amidst similar high elves from other IPs?

Now ZOS is claiming that they’re not even particularly magically advanced, which flies in the face of their one core aspect. It’s even in their stats for goodness sake. According to ZOS, the Psijiics didn’t even build their own tower, so the one cool aspect of their architecture isn’t even theirs.

I get it if you just like it this way, but you’re feigning ignorance if you can’t even see our perspective at this point.

And by your own logic you’re admitting how little sense it makes for Summerset to be littered with ruins, another problem we’re having. If they’re all about staying the same and preservation, what’s with all the ruins?

Again, it’s fine if you disagree with us, but it’s intellectually dishonest to say you don’t get where we’re coming from at this point. I can see your perspective, but you don’t seem
to even want to see ours. There’s no point to discussing this with you if we’re just going to go in these circles.

well I think Summerset is beautiful ans your claim that its boring is a personal one. Does not speak for everyones thoughts on summerset. Im sorry your so let down but ill be spending many weeks and months on summersets shores with nothing but joy and happiness in my heart. Must suck for you to not get that same feeling.

Meh. There’s plenty of other more artistic and narratively interesting games out there. I just grew up with this series, so it does kind of suck seeing them water down the world at every turn.

Hope you enjoy.

its a mundane world in the first place and some people like it like that. I love that its sorta like real world earth with this odd flare to it. And ya I like how the Altmer are portrayed. You dont. i get it. I will enjoy literally every minute spent there. Sorry it didnt meet your standards.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Pass the message to the design team that they did an amazing job and while there will always be someone to complain at least one loyal fan thinks your work is gorgeous and beautiful.

Like I said man, I’m glad you enjoy it. I’m not being passive aggressive if that’s what you think. This series just isn’t for me anymore. I’m glad it’s for you.

Faulgor

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

You mean outside of the sources people quoted (1st and 3nd PGE mainly) and the precedent set by their armor and weapon design? Because I think those are already pretty good sources of "ideas".

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

Where do people get the idea that all human architecture is an Elven rip off? Why is that suddenly taken as gospel, but other parts of the lore from "random lorebooks" are thrown out at a whim?
And even if they did, which human style of architecture are we talking about here? Because there are considerable differences between Wayrest, Abah's Landing, Skingrad, Whiterun, Windhelm, Elinthir, etc. So it would by no means follow logically that Altmeri design as a precursor had to be Gothic.

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Another thought that has popped into my head about the Great houses architecture and styles of buildings and furnishings is they are a fractious race. Split by houses vying for power and are all seperate lines.

Altmer are split into kinhouses as well. Well, maybe not anymore, who knows at this point.

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Altmer stay the same. They conform to a certain way to do things and dont break tradition.

Yet the Psijic left precisely because the Altmer changed.
That they are unwavering and never change is exactly what should be scrutinized as propaganda. Yet ZOS went the other way and decided to axe everything that made the Altmer different in appearance and style from men.

Hymzir

TheNuminous1 wrote: »

Im still not seeing where everyone is getting this isea that Altmer are Bizzare or have this unique unheard of design.

They are desendants of the First Elves. and changed by staying the same. All human architecture is essentially a rip off of Aldmeri Design. So why other then a few rabdom lorebooks would anyone think it would be something so far fetched and different then everything else we have seen.

Sounds like you are trying to come up with excuses to to justify a failed design choice. I call it the Star Trek effect, though I suppose the origin of the notion are the various Nit Pickers guides by Phil Farrand. See, whenever something that is obviously a mistake happens, the ardent fans try to come up with an in universe explanation for it.

I remember this one episode where Riker asks the computer for the shortest way to some location on the Enterprise. The computer tells something along the lines of walking down a corridor and then taking a left or something. Well Riker starts moving down the corridor and takes a right instead... Yet he still somehow manages to arrive where he wanted to go in the next scene.

The explanation, for this odd event, is obviously that the super intelligent ships computer realized, that Riker is not good with directions, and confuses left and right. So the computer purposefully told Riker the wrong set of directions, since the computer knew that Riker was gonna screw things up. That makes so much more sense than there just being a continuity error no one noticed during production, right?

Ultimately the same thing is in effect here. You are just trying to come up with some narrative that explains what is in essence a mistake by the dev team. And as for your idea... Well that don't work too well either. See, they already added Aldmer ruins in ESO. Auridon has several of them. And they look pretty much the same as Ayleid stuff. You know, the ancient elven design style, that was originally created for Oblivion.

They even gave a bit of in universe lore about the subject, Lawrence Schick gave an interview where he RPd Phrastus of Elinhir - this is what he claimed back then:

Nights Knight: Have traditionally been described as the offshoot of ancient Aldmer who conquered Cyrodiil specifically and succumbed to certain forms of ... Padomaic influence, we see that it is described as Ayleid ruins in Auridon itself, and Ayleid is occasionally used to simply mean 'ancestral elf'. Is this distinction between Ayleids and Altmer firmly maintained in ESO? This may seem like abject nerdery, but is it important to the self-perception of Altmer as Anuic, unchanged descendants of the Aldmer?

Phrastus: Well, hmph, any description of Elven ruins in the Summerset Isles as 'Ayleid' is an ignorant mistake! Probably made by someone who can't tell Heartland Elf architecture from High Elf. Look, it's quite simple: if you go into an Ayleid ruin, they're lit by these spooky, eerie blue lights, these-these Varla stones and Welkynd stones. Whereas, if you go into an Altmeri ruin, it will be lit by the golden glow of the Culanda and Malondo stones. So, uh that's one easy way to tell them apart, even if they may look superficially similar. However, despite these superficial similarities, it is incontrovertible that all the various races of the elves derive from Altmeri- Aldmeri root stock. Don't confuse your 'D's with your 'T's. Next!

So... If Altmer are preserving the traditions of their ancestors, then their buildings should look pretty much like the Ayleid ruins we are familiar with, since they look pretty much the same as Aldmer ruins. Just with different colored lighting. And if humans just copied the style of Aldmer, then human buildings should also resemble Ayleid ruins.

But they don't. And that's actually a good thing. Internal logic and consistency often takes a back seat when artistic design choices are pondered. Am actually okay with that. Retcons are a thing, and am never been one to get too attached to any lore of any setting or world I explore for entertainment. These things are not actual worlds, they are figments of imagination and their creators are just humans, who, as we well know, are prone to err. So mistakes will be done. Things will change with time. New ideas will take root and nothing is ever really set in stone.

Trying to justify these mistakes and differences with in universe explanations is mostly futile activity, though often fun and amusing. The bottom line here is, that they wanted their new "expansion" to include new stuff, so they just went ahead and made something. With little regard as to how well it fit with their previous stuff. Turns out that their designs were not as good as they thought they were. And that they misread the market, and that people actually wanted to have something that made sense in regard with what was stated earlier.

Now they are in damage control mode, coming up with the usual excuses of unreliable narrator and transcription error. Since they never make bad choices. Obviously! And the new explanation for everything is that Tamriel is not all that magical place, and that altmer are just snooty human pig farmers with genetic mutation causing malformed ears.

To be fair, they sortta did the same thing with orcs back when Wrothgar was released. The architecture in Orsinium is different from the orc stuff that existed in the game before that point, and most of that was based on Skyrim designs. At least the pre-orsinium stuff jives fairly well with the new stuff they added. For Summerset, however, it doesn't. The styles in Auridon and the main isle are completely different.

If you like Summerset, then good for you. Based on the footage show, it is well made, and the textures look pretty decent. I've per-oredered it myself. I have some space in my gaming schedule during the summer and Summerset looks decent enough thing to fill it up with.

That doesn't mean that I can't think critically about it, and that I am blind to it's short comings. And one of those things is the art style they went with. It doesn't jive with what we've seen of Altmer before, it doesn't jive with the established lore, it is far too blocky and and based on straight lines and acute corners, and most of all, it is looks far too much like real world architecture.

It doesn't even jive with what is established about altmer in ESO itself. Unless they add a lorebook somewhere that explains why every Altmer building outside of Summerset is completely different in style from the way they look there. Is there like some law that forbids anyone from building in that style elsewhere? Is it illegal to build in any other style on the main isle than the one shown in PR footage?

And that is what I think what people are complaining about. I, of course, can only speak for myself, but the problem seems to center around their decision to go with a style that is far too recognizably real world in origin, taht has pretty much nothing in common with what was made before.

If they had gone with something less obviously Gothic and European, I doubt we would be having this discussion. Regardless of how much crystal and insect wings based designs were on offer. It's the fact that it is so clearly Gothic and real world that has people all frumbled about, not that it breaks even the lore that has been generated by ESO itself. That last part is a given as far as I am concerned. Things change, and internal consistency is never the goal, although it's a nice bonus when you manage to maintain it. I just hope they'd have been tad more creative with their designs. That's all.

siebener

psychotrip wrote: »

Like I said man, I’m glad you enjoy it. I’m not being passive aggressive if that’s what you think. This series just isn’t for me anymore. I’m glad it’s for you.

The fact that you had such a huge faith to the description of the Summerset literally from 3 paragraphs from a lorebook then being extremely upset this very early (the chapter hasn't been released yet) because it doesn't match from what you have imagined seems kinda laughable.

It's kinda ironic while you don't want to enjoy the series anymore, you are still whining how the depiction of your "abandoned series" doesn't align with your vision in almost everywhere. It is too much of a rush to make a final conclusion to an expansion which hasn't come out yet.

This is one of the problem in TESlore community because they have taken apocrypha/fan fiction too literal and they often despise almost everything different from what they have envisioned to the point they cannot distinguish between apocrypha and in-game lore anymore.

psychotrip

siebener wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Like I said man, I’m glad you enjoy it. I’m not being passive aggressive if that’s what you think. This series just isn’t for me anymore. I’m glad it’s for you.

It's kinda ironic while you don't want to enjoy the series anymore, you are still whining how the depiction of your "abandoned series" doesn't align with your vision in almost everywhere. It is too much of a rush to make a final conclusion to an expansion which hasn't come out yet.

Nah dude. This is a long time coming. Ever since I realized Cyrodiil was supposed to be a much more interesting, unique place, and that Imperials probably would've been my favorite race if they didn't remove everything cool about them in Oblivion, I've just kind of been fooling myself thinking things wouldn't become less interesting (to me) from there. Summerset is just the last straw for me.

Faulgor

siebener wrote: »

This is one of the problem in TESlore community because they have taken apocrypha/fan fiction too literal and they often despise almost everything different from what they have envisioned to the point they cannot distinguish between apocrypha and in-game lore anymore.

That's not my observation. The lore community is not a bunch of traditionalists. When new additions are generally interesting or bring new insights, they are usually happily embraced (e.g. "water is memory"). On the whole, ESO has probably made more interesting new contributions to the lore than Skyrim did.
What the lore community doesn't like is when changes make the world less interesting and compelling, and more mundane.

psychotrip

Faulgor wrote: »

siebener wrote: »

This is one of the problem in TESlore community because they have taken apocrypha/fan fiction too literal and they often despise almost everything different from what they have envisioned to the point they cannot distinguish between apocrypha and in-game lore anymore.

That's not my observation. The lore community is not a bunch of traditionalists. When new additions are generally interesting or bring new insights, they are usually happily embraced (e.g. "water is memory"). On the whole, ESO has probably made more interesting new contributions to the lore than Skyrim did.
What the lore community doesn't like is when changes make the world less interesting and compelling, and more mundane.

This.

Please stop acting like we only would've been happy with some insane Kirkbride-esque KINMUNE fanfiction. That's not what this is about in the least.

siebener

psychotrip wrote: »

Nah dude. This is a long time coming. Ever since I realized Cyrodiil was supposed to be a much more interesting, unique place, and that Imperials probably would've been my favorite race if they didn't remove everything cool about them in Oblivion, I've just kind of been fooling myself thinking things wouldn't become less interesting (to me) from there. Summerset is just the last straw for me.

Although the depiction of Cyrodiil from TES4 is disappointing, it seems that BGS has regretted this decision (even offered 4 different explanations regarding "jungled Cyrodiil") and ZOS had reestablished the depiction of Cyrodiil/the Imperials back to PGE1 without disturbing the established environment from TES4 entirely and reestablished the cultural distinct of Colovian and Nibenay back to the series.
.[/quote]








Look at these costume, it seems fit to the description of PGE1 (back to greco-roman influences) which feature toga and meander heavily:

Compared to these lame clothes from Oblivion:





and this art from ES:Legends:


We haven't seen Nibenay yet and it seems they want to make it a jungle again if they have to release Nibenay zone.

psychotrip

siebener wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

Nah dude. This is a long time coming. Ever since I realized Cyrodiil was supposed to be a much more interesting, unique place, and that Imperials probably would've been my favorite race if they didn't remove everything cool about them in Oblivion, I've just kind of been fooling myself thinking things wouldn't become less interesting (to me) from there. Summerset is just the last straw for me.

Although the depiction of Cyrodiil from TES4 is disappointing, it seems that BGS has regretted this decision (even offered 4 different explanations regarding "jungled Cyrodiil") and ZOS had reestablished the depiction of Cyrodiil/the Imperials back to PGE1 without disturbing the established environment from TES4 entirely and reestablished the cultural distinct of Colovian and Nibenay back to the series.








Look at these costume, it seems fit to the description of PGE1 (back to greco-roman influences) which feature toga and meander heavily:

Compared to these lame clothes from Oblivion:





and this art from ES:Legends:


We haven't seen Nibenay yet and it seems they want to make it a jungle again if they have to release Nibenay zone.

See, and this is an example of ZOS actually expanding and building upon the lore, and making something with a bit of distinct personality.

I don’t hate everything ZOS does. I actually think ESO is better than skyrim in every way. But Summerset is an example of them dropping the ball, and reducing my favorite race into something rote, boring, and generic.

inespeloazul

Yeah, I've brought it up earlier in the thread, but one of the reasons I'm personally put-off by Summerset is because I through ZOS was a lot better at handling the lore than Bethesda has been recently (granted, a lot of Skyrim's faults seem to be because of time constraints, but we can only guess).

While the visual parts weren't exactly the best until Orsinium came around, I considered the writing pretty much on par with TES 3 Morrowind (I just wish things were explored a little more past a quest or two...)

Again, Summerset looks really great, and I preordered it a while back when it was at a 25% discount because I'm looking forward to the continuation of the story, but unlike Hew's Bane and Wrothgar it misses the mark on the race it's portraying. And the way Matt uses the "fluid lore" excuse while later in the interview somehow forgets that Centaurs are a thing in the lore makes it seem more like a lame excuse than a deliberate choice. Two steps forward, one step back, I guess? I'm still holding out hope that it continues ESO's trend of at least having decent quest lore, but even as someone who wasn't' especially interested in Altmer, I'm pretty miffed at how it all turned out. Because it's basically Oblivion 2.0 and I doubt Bethesda's gonna come and "fix" everything like ESO's been doing.

Bam_Bam

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

why would an imperial lie about how amazing high elves are though?

Because they are not. They are rubbish.

grizzledcroc

In the end Matt really isnt in the lore team . We really need to be talking with the loremaster about these things for definitive information.

psychotrip

grizzledcroc wrote: »

In the end Matt really isnt in the lore team . We really need to be talking with the loremaster about these things for definitive information.

Well, Matt's the best we got right now since Schick hasn't spoken in a while. And at the very least, the team should be coordinating enough to be able to answer simple lore-based questions for a website (UESP) that focuses heavily on ES lore. I have to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Matt's on the same page as Schick here.

siebener

People should start to realize that making an early conclusion then the tell to other people loudly that "the series has been destroyed/it's not x series anymore/it sucks because It doesn't match from what I have imagined" even before touching the game itself is ridiculous. Just because you don't like the architecture of a specific race, doesn't mean the entire series sucks and should be ashamed. At least wait for the chapter to be released before making any conclusions, just because you don't like the architecture doesn't mean everything on Summerset or Elder Scrolls in general sucks. Patience is the key before you make a final conclusion.

ZOS did a great job at making new interesting lore, retconning stuffs and make other races and cultures (Orcs, Khajiits, Argonians, Clockwork City, Hew's Bane, The Gold Coast, Craglorn/The Nedes) interesting and fixing other mistakes from the previous series ----> ok cool (just it)


ZOS made the Altmers architecture seems mundane and generic although the game hasn't been released yet ----> I HATE IT! THIS IS NOT ELDER SCROLLS ANYMORE! ZOS IS RUINING ELDER SCROLLS! AND I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW (although they haven't tried the game yet)

OrdoHermetica

datgladiatah wrote: »

I think the biggest problem with the Chapter release set-up is it basically leaves almost nothing open to the players until it's obviously too late. Players don't get to see the game until a month before the release and none of their feedback on the zone can be implemented and they know this, don't care.

I really don't mind it for what it is because ZOS completely *** Valenwood for me physically, but storytelling and lore was spot on enough to make up for it. I think the side quests in the last two DLCs made up for the main quest blunders. I think the improvements going forward were positive and i'm glad to see they're not releasing another class, aware they need to focus on making the Warden more balanced between pvp and pve, and that open skill lines is what ESO fun to begin with (access to many tools rather than class restrictions). Generally it's going a positive direction. And generally the varlines and other technologies might be more subtle or just not shown, but at least the architecture as it is pretty, not impressive, but pretty. I just wish I could understand why they didn't just read the available lore in the game? Would it have been that hard to make the arcitecture more sheen, as if it were glass, and added more technology since they're used to doing that in CWC?

psychotrip wrote: »

grizzledcroc wrote: »

In the end Matt really isnt in the lore team . We really need to be talking with the loremaster about these things for definitive information.

Well, Matt's the best we got right now since Schick hasn't spoken in a while. And at the very least, the team should be coordinating enough to be able to answer simple lore-based questions for a website (UESP) that focuses heavily on ES lore. I have to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume Matt's on the same page as Schick here.

Or... they're not, but they decided from a financial standpoint to go the cheaper, uninspired route. ZOS has pretty clearly demonstrated that short-term profit comes first when it comes to ESO, so it's quite possible the lore team is not even remotely happy about this but also doesn't really have a say in the matter.

RainfeatherUK

It seems as if people are circling the arena with their 'hurr durr opinions man' rhetoric.

Whilst everyone else, who didn't claim they weren't opinions anyway, looks on baffled.

In reality the crunch comes when you ask yourself the simplest questions;

Is Summerset fit for expectation (within reason this should be a standard befitting high elf lore - not an opinion). And is it an inspired work that shows reverence for not only the said lore but the community of ALL ES (especially when people have so much invested in the games/their life time).

I would suggest that answer is no. There are clear copy/cut thematics throughout what has been displayed. It lacks uniqueness and magic - something that DOESN'T befit the elves as a standard of who they are. Standards to a point, aren't mere opinions. They are something that defines what it means to be a high elf, for ALL people. We share them as common ideas of what a thing even is. Without that, who would care about anything? There would be no shared appreciation or value in any entity at all. Common definition and expectation is precisely why this matters to so many.

Twenty0zTsunami

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

why would an imperial lie about how amazing high elves are though?

b/c if they are at odds and he implies they're not very special, the imperials look weak?

Hymzir

siebener wrote: »

People should start to realize that making an early conclusion then the tell to other people loudly that "the series has been destroyed/it's not x series anymore/it sucks because It doesn't match from what I have imagined" even before touching the game itself is ridiculous. Just because you don't like the architecture of a specific race, doesn't mean the entire series sucks and should be ashamed. At least wait for the chapter to be released before making any conclusions, just because you don't like the architecture doesn't mean everything on Summerset or Elder Scrolls in general sucks. Patience is the key before you make a final conclusion.

ZOS did a great job at making new interesting lore, retconning stuffs and make other races and cultures (Orcs, Khajiits, Argonians, Clockwork City, Hew's Bane, The Gold Coast, Craglorn/The Nedes) interesting and fixing other mistakes from the previous series ----> ok cool (just it)


ZOS made the Altmers architecture seems mundane and generic and the game hasn't been released yet ----> I HATE IT! THIS IS NOT ELDER SCROLLS ANYMORE! ZOS IS RUINING ELDER SCROLLS! AND I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW (although they haven't tried the game yet)

Well... People could also not go for the hyperbole when someone criticizes some aspect of the game. People could realize, that being critical about something is not the same as whining about it not being identical to one's personal vision. Or how about this for an even more radical thought: Just because one thinks that there is room for improvement for one aspect of the whole, doesn't mean that everything about it sucks, and the series as a whole is bad. It just means that the one aspect in question could've been implemented better.

There are some who do feel that this is a betrayal of core values of Elder Scroll universe, that the series is locked into a downwards spiral, and that the quality of the series as a whole suffers. And that's perfectly valid opinion too. If that is their opinion, then that is how they feel. If you do not share that opinion then good for you, but it's pretty pointless to start making claims about how they are not in a position to make such claims. Because obviously they are. Because that is how they feel. Past content for the game, and the way ZOS previously has handled things, is more than enough for people to come to whatever conclusion they do come to.

Them sharing their opinions does not mean that they are attacking you for liking what you like. It is just them telling that they do not like this, and if they do not tell this, then how would the people at ZOS ever learn what their customers think about how they are doing. If you like things then go ahead and tell ZOS, but even more important is to speak up when you think they have erred.

It's not for us in the public to decide which stance is right, but for ZOS to evaluate the response their latest offering generates and then use that feedback to make informed decisions regarding future content.

So no... The game does not suck because Altmer architecture is Gothic. Nor is it about their vision matching with one's own. It's about criticizing their design choice.

Having gone through several hours worth of footage, both from official sources as well as various Youtubers, I can confidently say that I do not like the Summerset architecture. It reminds me too much of the real world and it doesn't match the existing high elf architecture in the game, nor does it fit anything established previously about their culture.

I also challenge the notion of the impossibly tall towers, though I do reserve some judgement on that issue for firsthand experience. I may be proven wrong on that, but based on the available evidence I just am not in any sort of awe about the buildings height.

Just because I feel this way doesn't mean I think the game is now rubbish. I just think the architecture is based on a botched design concept.

I also realize that it's quite normal for those who love the game and the series as a whole to feel any criticism as an attack on a general level on the game they care so much about. However, people are not bashing the game as a whole due to the style of architecture they went with. There's lot of other reasons to bash the game and stuff to be grumpy about. But that is neither here nor now. This thread is about the architecture not about general review of the state of the game and the franchise as a whole. Although if you are unhappy with the general status of the game, then uninspiring design choices will not help the games case.

Based on what people have said here, and on reddit and various other places around the internet, I think I can safely say that the design choice has not been well received.

Some are genuinely angry that the look is so mundane compared to what was alluded in the lore, and while I am not one of them, I can understand where they are coming from. And I personally would've been quite happy to have explored sucha version of Summerset. 'Cause the tidbits of sparse lore available, and the datamined bits about earlier design ideas, really sound like they would've made fro one seriously memorable experience.

Lot of people seem to just be bummed out how boring and European it looks. And I'm one of them. I wanted to see something different, something not based on real world architecture and be something new and unique.

The majority of people don't really mind, they don't really have a problem with it. They don't have a vested interested in ESO lore, and are just looking for fun entertainment. They might point out to various in universe reasons to justify it, or talk about the quality of the models and textures and the design in general. But even then, they are not really defending the Gothic aesthetics. It's just that they don't mind it and it doesn't really bother them that much. If the game had gone with something more adventurous, something more imaginative, they wouldn't have a problem with that either.

It's a really rare individual who truly thinks that it's a smashing success. The number of people who think, that this is what High elf cities should look like, seem to be fairly low, and most who seam to take this stance seem to be fans who are just overreacting to criticism on general level.

But to sum it up - criticizing one aspect of the game doe not equate to bashing the whole. Most of us are not claiming that it looks bad, most of us are saying it looks bland. And there is difference between the two. Some of us are saddened and frustrated by the wasted opportunity and what could've been. Most of us will still buy it and play through it, but we are just feeling bit bummed out since it wont be as unique and memorable experiences it could've been. If you like what hey offered then good for you, but do try to understand that there is a significant amount of players who do not think that way. And we are just letting ZOS know hoe we feel. And we do that because we too care about the game.

siebener

Hymzir wrote: »

siebener wrote: »

People should start to realize that making an early conclusion then the tell to other people loudly that "the series has been destroyed/it's not x series anymore/it sucks because It doesn't match from what I have imagined" even before touching the game itself is ridiculous. Just because you don't like the architecture of a specific race, doesn't mean the entire series sucks and should be ashamed. At least wait for the chapter to be released before making any conclusions, just because you don't like the architecture doesn't mean everything on Summerset or Elder Scrolls in general sucks. Patience is the key before you make a final conclusion.

ZOS did a great job at making new interesting lore, retconning stuffs and make other races and cultures (Orcs, Khajiits, Argonians, Clockwork City, Hew's Bane, The Gold Coast, Craglorn/The Nedes) interesting and fixing other mistakes from the previous series ----> ok cool (just it)


ZOS made the Altmers architecture seems mundane and generic and the game hasn't been released yet ----> I HATE IT! THIS IS NOT ELDER SCROLLS ANYMORE! ZOS IS RUINING ELDER SCROLLS! AND I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW (although they haven't tried the game yet)

Well... People could also not go for the hyperbole when someone criticizes some aspect of the game. People could realize, that being critical about something is not the same as whining about it not being identical to one's personal vision. Or how about this for an even more radical thought: Just because one thinks that there is room for improvement for one aspect of the whole, doesn't mean that everything about it sucks, and the series as a whole is bad. It just means that the one aspect in question could've been implemented better.

There are some who do feel that this is a betrayal of core values of Elder Scroll universe, that the series is locked into a downwards spiral, and that the quality of the series as a whole suffers. And that's perfectly valid opinion too. If that is their opinion, then that is how they feel. If you do not share that opinion then good for you, but it's pretty pointless to start making claims about how they are not in a position to make such claims. Because obviously they are. Because that is how they feel. Past content for the game, and the way ZOS previously has handled things, is more than enough for people to come to whatever conclusion they do come to.

Them sharing their opinions does not mean that they are attacking you for liking what you like. It is just them telling that they do not like this, and if they do not tell this, then how would the people at ZOS ever learn what their customers think about how they are doing. If you like things then go ahead and tell ZOS, but even more important is to speak up when you think they have erred.

It's not for us in the public to decide which stance is right, but for ZOS to evaluate the response their latest offering generates and then use that feedback to make informed decisions regarding future content.

So no... The game does not suck because Altmer architecture is Gothic. Nor is it about their vision matching with one's own. It's about criticizing their design choice.

Having gone through several hours worth of footage, both from official sources as well as various Youtubers, I can confidently say that I do not like the Summerset architecture. It reminds me too much of the real world and it doesn't match the existing high elf architecture in the game, nor does it fit anything established previously about their culture.

I also challenge the notion of the impossibly tall towers, though I do reserve some judgement on that issue for firsthand experience. I may be proven wrong on that, but based on the available evidence I just am not in any sort of awe about the buildings height.

Just because I feel this way doesn't mean I think the game is now rubbish. I just think the architecture is based on a botched design concept.

I also realize that it's quite normal for those who love the game and the series as a whole to feel any criticism as an attack on a general level on the game they care so much about. However, people are not bashing the game as a whole due to the style of architecture they went with. There's lot of other reasons to bash the game and stuff to be grumpy about. But that is neither here nor now. This thread is about the architecture not about general review of the state of the game and the franchise as a whole. Although if you are unhappy with the general status of the game, then uninspiring design choices will not help the games case.

Based on what people have said here, and on reddit and various other places around the internet, I think I can safely say that the design choice has not been well received.

Some are genuinely angry that the look is so mundane compared to what was alluded in the lore, and while I am not one of them, I can understand where they are coming from. And I personally would've been quite happy to have explored sucha version of Summerset. 'Cause the tidbits of sparse lore available, and the datamined bits about earlier design ideas, really sound like they would've made fro one seriously memorable experience.

Lot of people seem to just be bummed out how boring and European it looks. And I'm one of them. I wanted to see something different, something not based on real world architecture and be something new and unique.

The majority of people don't really mind, they don't really have a problem with it. They don't have a vested interested in ESO lore, and are just looking for fun entertainment. They might point out to various in universe reasons to justify it, or talk about the quality of the models and textures and the design in general. But even then, they are not really defending the Gothic aesthetics. It's just that they don't mind it and it doesn't really bother them that much. If the game had gone with something more adventurous, something more imaginative, they wouldn't have a problem with that either.

It's a really rare individual who truly thinks that it's a smashing success. The number of people who think, that this is what High elf cities should look like, seem to be fairly low, and most who seam to take this stance seem to be fans who are just overreacting to criticism on general level.

But to sum it up - criticizing one aspect of the game doe not equate to bashing the whole. Most of us are not claiming that it looks bad, most of us are saying it looks bland. And there is difference between the two. Some of us are saddened and frustrated by the wasted opportunity and what could've been. Most of us will still buy it and play through it, but we are just feeling bit bummed out since it wont be as unique and memorable experiences it could've been. If you like what hey offered then good for you, but do try to understand that there is a significant amount of players who do not think that way. And we are just letting ZOS know hoe we feel. And we do that because we too care about the game.

Did you read my previous post? I wasn't talking about people who have shown discontent about Summerset's architecture or upset with what we will get in the chapter in general. Even in my honest opinion, the Altmer's architecture is mundane and kinda boring, and I agree with some opinions on this forum.

I WAS talking about people who have shown some discontents in an extreme level, calling the series as "not Elder Scrolls what we known of", "the series is ruined", "transcription errors", "it's dead", "there's no hope" despite the only Elder Scrolls game which take place in a bizzare setting is Morrowind and the rest of it take place in rather mundane settings, or even spread made-up facts and misinformations like "everything unique about them at least was retconned", "varlines, kinhouse concepts, sunbirds are scrapped" or the "Altmers aren't magically advanced" and more. Those are some made up statements that came from just watching some demo footages which haven't shown any plots or narratives, and ironically some of this actions were done in a regular basis by someone on this forum.

Even outside this forum, there are some death threats pointed to ZOS creative team because they don't like the depiction of Altmer's architecture.

Showing a disappointment is fine and encouraged, but spreading misinformations because you don't like it and calling the whole franchise "sucks" both directly and indirectly? Just because most people don't bash the game because of their disappointment, that doesn't mean people who are bashing the series as whole because they don't like the depiction of the architecture don't exist.

psychotrip

siebener wrote: »

Hymzir wrote: »

siebener wrote: »

People should start to realize that making an early conclusion then the tell to other people loudly that "the series has been destroyed/it's not x series anymore/it sucks because It doesn't match from what I have imagined" even before touching the game itself is ridiculous. Just because you don't like the architecture of a specific race, doesn't mean the entire series sucks and should be ashamed. At least wait for the chapter to be released before making any conclusions, just because you don't like the architecture doesn't mean everything on Summerset or Elder Scrolls in general sucks. Patience is the key before you make a final conclusion.

ZOS did a great job at making new interesting lore, retconning stuffs and make other races and cultures (Orcs, Khajiits, Argonians, Clockwork City, Hew's Bane, The Gold Coast, Craglorn/The Nedes) interesting and fixing other mistakes from the previous series ----> ok cool (just it)


ZOS made the Altmers architecture seems mundane and generic and the game hasn't been released yet ----> I HATE IT! THIS IS NOT ELDER SCROLLS ANYMORE! ZOS IS RUINING ELDER SCROLLS! AND I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW (although they haven't tried the game yet)

Well... People could also not go for the hyperbole when someone criticizes some aspect of the game. People could realize, that being critical about something is not the same as whining about it not being identical to one's personal vision. Or how about this for an even more radical thought: Just because one thinks that there is room for improvement for one aspect of the whole, doesn't mean that everything about it sucks, and the series as a whole is bad. It just means that the one aspect in question could've been implemented better.

There are some who do feel that this is a betrayal of core values of Elder Scroll universe, that the series is locked into a downwards spiral, and that the quality of the series as a whole suffers. And that's perfectly valid opinion too. If that is their opinion, then that is how they feel. If you do not share that opinion then good for you, but it's pretty pointless to start making claims about how they are not in a position to make such claims. Because obviously they are. Because that is how they feel. Past content for the game, and the way ZOS previously has handled things, is more than enough for people to come to whatever conclusion they do come to.

Them sharing their opinions does not mean that they are attacking you for liking what you like. It is just them telling that they do not like this, and if they do not tell this, then how would the people at ZOS ever learn what their customers think about how they are doing. If you like things then go ahead and tell ZOS, but even more important is to speak up when you think they have erred.

It's not for us in the public to decide which stance is right, but for ZOS to evaluate the response their latest offering generates and then use that feedback to make informed decisions regarding future content.

So no... The game does not suck because Altmer architecture is Gothic. Nor is it about their vision matching with one's own. It's about criticizing their design choice.

Having gone through several hours worth of footage, both from official sources as well as various Youtubers, I can confidently say that I do not like the Summerset architecture. It reminds me too much of the real world and it doesn't match the existing high elf architecture in the game, nor does it fit anything established previously about their culture.

I also challenge the notion of the impossibly tall towers, though I do reserve some judgement on that issue for firsthand experience. I may be proven wrong on that, but based on the available evidence I just am not in any sort of awe about the buildings height.

Just because I feel this way doesn't mean I think the game is now rubbish. I just think the architecture is based on a botched design concept.

I also realize that it's quite normal for those who love the game and the series as a whole to feel any criticism as an attack on a general level on the game they care so much about. However, people are not bashing the game as a whole due to the style of architecture they went with. There's lot of other reasons to bash the game and stuff to be grumpy about. But that is neither here nor now. This thread is about the architecture not about general review of the state of the game and the franchise as a whole. Although if you are unhappy with the general status of the game, then uninspiring design choices will not help the games case.

Based on what people have said here, and on reddit and various other places around the internet, I think I can safely say that the design choice has not been well received.

Some are genuinely angry that the look is so mundane compared to what was alluded in the lore, and while I am not one of them, I can understand where they are coming from. And I personally would've been quite happy to have explored sucha version of Summerset. 'Cause the tidbits of sparse lore available, and the datamined bits about earlier design ideas, really sound like they would've made fro one seriously memorable experience.

Lot of people seem to just be bummed out how boring and European it looks. And I'm one of them. I wanted to see something different, something not based on real world architecture and be something new and unique.

The majority of people don't really mind, they don't really have a problem with it. They don't have a vested interested in ESO lore, and are just looking for fun entertainment. They might point out to various in universe reasons to justify it, or talk about the quality of the models and textures and the design in general. But even then, they are not really defending the Gothic aesthetics. It's just that they don't mind it and it doesn't really bother them that much. If the game had gone with something more adventurous, something more imaginative, they wouldn't have a problem with that either.

It's a really rare individual who truly thinks that it's a smashing success. The number of people who think, that this is what High elf cities should look like, seem to be fairly low, and most who seam to take this stance seem to be fans who are just overreacting to criticism on general level.

But to sum it up - criticizing one aspect of the game doe not equate to bashing the whole. Most of us are not claiming that it looks bad, most of us are saying it looks bland. And there is difference between the two. Some of us are saddened and frustrated by the wasted opportunity and what could've been. Most of us will still buy it and play through it, but we are just feeling bit bummed out since it wont be as unique and memorable experiences it could've been. If you like what hey offered then good for you, but do try to understand that there is a significant amount of players who do not think that way. And we are just letting ZOS know hoe we feel. And we do that because we too care about the game.

Did you read my previous post? I wasn't talking about people who have shown discontent about Summerset's architecture or upset with what we will get in the chapter in general. Even in my honest opinion, the Altmer's architecture is mundane and kinda boring, and I agree with some opinions on this forum.

I WAS talking about people who have shown some discontents in an extreme level, calling the series as "not Elder Scrolls what we known of", "the series is ruined", "transcription errors", "it's dead", "there's no hope" despite the only Elder Scrolls game which take place in a bizzare setting is Morrowind and the rest of it take place in rather mundane settings, or even spread made-up facts and misinformations like "everything unique about them at least was retconned", "varlines, kinhouse concepts, sunbirds are scrapped" or the "Altmers aren't magically advanced" and more. Those are some made up statements that came from just watching some demo footages which haven't shown any plots or narratives, and ironically some of this actions were done in a regular basis by someone on this forum.

Even outside this forum, there are some death threats pointed to ZOS creative team because they don't like the depiction of Altmer's architecture.

Showing a disappointment is fine and encouraged, but spreading misinformations because you don't like it and calling the whole franchise "sucks" both directly and indirectly? Just because most people don't bash the game because of their disappointment, that doesn't mean people who are bashing the series as whole because they don't like the depiction of the architecture don't exist.

I assume you're talking about me then, as many of your above "quotes" look suspiciously like things I've said taken out of context or with convenient words changed. As I've said in numerous posts, my increasing cynicism toward this series is not merely due to Summerset's buildings. I feel like I shouldn't have to say this again. This is simply the latest in a series of criticisms I've had lately.

I've also made clear that I'm not full of mindless hatred toward this game. Personally, I think the gameplay and story is leagues beyond anything Bethesda's done in years. I can like certain aspects of a game while bashing the parts of I think deserve to be bashed.

I really think that, if you keep claiming we're spelling gloom and doom merely over an expansion we haven't played yet, or that we just want to hate this game for the sake of hating it, or that we're spreading "misinformation", then you're being intellectually dishonest at this point.

MLGProPlayer

ZOS recently explained their logic behind the architecture:

Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Makes perfect sense.