Summerset architecture.

moonio

There are some lovely examples of High Elf architectural inspiration on this thread, but we got what we got and I very much doubt any changes will happen now.
But who knows, from what I can tell part of Summerset exists within someones mind?? I dunno..
So anything could happen there.

I have a motto, if the thing I want doesn't exist in the world, or I can't have it for some other reason. I try to make it for myself.
So go draw some fantasy art for yourself and who knows maybe one day you will make a video game too..

xxx Moon

Aliyavana

The thing is, people will enjoy it because what zos gave us is beautiful and I will admit its beautiful, but it isn't really original. And when zos goes this route this is what people will remember what altmer architecture should look like sadly

psychotrip

moonio wrote: »

There are some lovely examples of High Elf architectural inspiration on this thread, but we got what we got and I very much doubt any changes will happen now.
But who knows, from what I can tell part of Summerset exists within someones mind?? I dunno..
So anything could happen there.

I have a motto, if the thing I want doesn't exist in the world, or I can't have it for some other reason. I try to make it for myself.
So go draw some fantasy art for yourself and who knows maybe one day you will make a video game too..

xxx Moon

The argument wasn’t that ZOS would change. The argument is that ZOS’s art direction for summerset is as bland, drab, and uninspired as possible, and that it’s a symptom of this franchise’s descent into creative bankruptcy.

The reason many of us are mad is because, like I said, we got into this series because it was different. Because after Daggerfall, they made a point of defying the trends and conventions of “gritty, realistic” fantasy. Because the developers seemed determined to put the “high” in high fantasy, creating an extremely bizarre world that was still bound by relatable human conflicts (religion, race, imperialism, globalism etc).

Summerset, for many of us, was the crux of this experience. It was a place they intentionally shrouded in mystery for decades, with racist propaganda and incomplete descriptions. Yeah, we knew those descriptions likely weren’t all true. But we also knew that in The Elder Scrolls, elves aren’t just humans with pointy ears. They’re an entirely different species with a culture, worldview, and moral compass that’s entirely incompatable with humanity.

This basic idea is the core of The Elder Scrolls’ political conflicts. Unlike on Earth, there’s two different species running the world, and their very existence is an affront to the other. We didn’t know what to expect from Summerset, but since they’re supposedly the most “elven” elves of all, as well as the most advanced race in Tamriel, we expected....something...anything. We expected something to justify their existence and role in the story.

So, while I appreciate your input, you never answered the question:

What, at all, makes Summerset unique? What makes the Altmer unique at this point? What do they bring to the table that a million other high elves in a million other medieval European forests don't already have?

siebener

Summerset Isle maybe isn't spectacular as it looks, due to their exceedingly high arrogance to admit Men's capabilities and it's reflected to the Imperial architecture (because they claim Imperial speech, writing, and most of the Imperial's arts, crafts, laws, and sciences are derived from their traditions), so it's really not too far from Imperial and High Rock (formerly Altmer colonies) architectures.

Surely there are some "changes" on the lore (ex: there are some Men who live in Summerset for generations despite some rumors said no men are allowed to live there permanently, and etc). But let's not forget that ZOS has designed some architectures like Orcish/Wrothgar, Redguard (especially Hew's Bane), Khajiit, Clockwork City, and Vvardenfell quite nicely and some of them even astonishing. I hope there are some lore explanations (even quest) on Summerset Chapter why their architecture doesn't look as magnificent as people had described, maybe some of the explanations would be philosophical

But hey look at this image from the PAX stream, it seems Artaeum is pretty "alien".

zassasaurus

yeah artaeum looks pretty cool, I wish the rest of summerset looked a bit more like that!

Faulgor

aliyavana wrote: »

The thing is, people will enjoy it because what zos gave us is beautiful and I will admit its beautiful, but it isn't really original. And when zos goes this route this is what people will remember what altmer architecture should look like sadly

It reminds me of some of my favourite game environments, e.g. the mentioned Anor Londo, or the Makers' World in Darksiders 2. It's really beautiful, just not distinct or Altmeri.
It's a real shame that it would have made a pretty great High Rock, too.

siebener

So during the PAX event, some UESP members asked the developers regarding to the inconsistency of the Altmer's architecture from the previous lore.

Basically yeah, unreliable narrator and the fact that some lorebooks contradicted themselves. According to Matt Firor, Todd Howard likes to say that at its heart the world of TES really wouldn’t change much if you took away magic - the world is generally mundane - so the Altmer aren’t some super-race that’s more advanced than all the others

Despite I didn't really like the architecture to begin with, I could say it's because most people had some wild expectations to the chapter and overall representation, probably because the stigma that Altmers being "superior" compared to other races, but actually Altmers aren't really that superior. So it creates something similar to "Paris syndrome" effect to other people who had high expectations on Summerset Isle.

Although the architecture feels generic, I think people should notice that the architecture is influenced by neo-gothic and greco-roman architecture with other unusual elements (high soaring towers and full marble in almost every buildings, unusually large flying buttress and arcs), which far ahead from its time (compared to Bretons and Imperials).

I saw some European cities but most of their "great gothic/victorian cities" were built during Baroque periode (17th-18th century), before that periode, only churches and palaces/castles were built with "a great architecture", but not on usual citizen buildings.

After all, the Altmers influenced other Men cultures in mainland Tamriel, since they claim to be the most cultured race. It doesn't have to be unique and full "alien".

Faulgor

Alarra: So kind of related to that, there's been a lot of talk among fans about how what we've seen of it doesn't really match, necessarily, how it's been described - like Alinor's buildings looking like insect wings? Is that a matter of just, it's hard to reflect that in the gameplay, or was that a deliberate design choice, or is it the unreliable narrator?

Matt Firor: Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Well, there you have it. Altmer are pig farmers, magic is just make-belief, anything other than stone is too advanced.

TelvanniWizard

Faulgor wrote: »

Alarra: So kind of related to that, there's been a lot of talk among fans about how what we've seen of it doesn't really match, necessarily, how it's been described - like Alinor's buildings looking like insect wings? Is that a matter of just, it's hard to reflect that in the gameplay, or was that a deliberate design choice, or is it the unreliable narrator?

Matt Firor: Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Well, there you have it. Altmer are pig farmers, magic is just make-belief, anything other than stone is too advanced.

More poor excuses. Shameful display...

Korah_Eaglecry

aliyavana wrote: »

but it isn't really original. And when zos goes this route this is what people will remember what altmer architecture should look like sadly

Neither is all of the examples of "better high elf architecture" in this thread. Everything people have pointed at here claiming to be more in line with what they imagined has been done to death in other high fantasy settings.

Its funny how you can claim somethings not original while demanding ZOS blatantly rip other works to appease what you built Summerset up to be in your head.

Faulgor

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Alarra: So kind of related to that, there's been a lot of talk among fans about how what we've seen of it doesn't really match, necessarily, how it's been described - like Alinor's buildings looking like insect wings? Is that a matter of just, it's hard to reflect that in the gameplay, or was that a deliberate design choice, or is it the unreliable narrator?

Matt Firor: Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Well, there you have it. Altmer are pig farmers, magic is just make-belief, anything other than stone is too advanced.

More poor excuses. Shameful display...

Look at the bright side, this means that Telvanni are probably the most advanced wizards in all of Tamriel

TelvanniWizard

Faulgor wrote: »

TelvanniWizard wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Alarra: So kind of related to that, there's been a lot of talk among fans about how what we've seen of it doesn't really match, necessarily, how it's been described - like Alinor's buildings looking like insect wings? Is that a matter of just, it's hard to reflect that in the gameplay, or was that a deliberate design choice, or is it the unreliable narrator?

Matt Firor: Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Well, there you have it. Altmer are pig farmers, magic is just make-belief, anything other than stone is too advanced.

More poor excuses. Shameful display...

Look at the bright side, this means that Telvanni are probably the most advanced wizards in all of Tamriel

T´was good. Made me smile. But we still suffer from flesh atro towers

Aliyavana

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

aliyavana wrote: »

but it isn't really original. And when zos goes this route this is what people will remember what altmer architecture should look like sadly

Neither is all of the examples of "better high elf architecture" in this thread. Everything people have pointed at here claiming to be more in line with what they imagined has been done to death in other high fantasy settings.

Its funny how you can claim somethings not original while demanding ZOS blatantly rip other works to appease what you built Summerset up to be in your head.

I'm sorry, but when did I say to rip others work?

psychotrip

Alarra: So kind of related to that, there's been a lot of talk among fans about how what we've seen of it doesn't really match, necessarily, how it's been described - like Alinor's buildings looking like insect wings? Is that a matter of just, it's hard to reflect that in the gameplay, or was that a deliberate design choice, or is it the unreliable narrator?

Matt Firor: Yeah, you mean picking certain lorebooks, cities looked a certain way, but they're not definitive, so, you know… I think Elder Scrolls is, at its heart – and Todd Howard says this all the time – if magic left Tamriel, no one would notice, because it's very mundane at its heart. It's like, there's poor Altmer pig farmers, like, it's not like the high elves are better than anyone else, they're just different, right? They’re not like the super race, or they would’ve been able to control all of Tamriel. They have their own thing going, and so they can't be that much more advanced than everyone else. It just doesn't make sense in the lore. So with that in mind, that’s how we came up with the architecture for them.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/General:Matt_Firor_&_Rich_Lambert_Summerset_Interview

Well, at least that clears everything up. I think it’s fair to say our expectations were too high. Turns out the Altmer are just arrogant hypocrites after all, and that anything more advanced than what we’ve seen would be unrealistic. Turns out the Altmer didn’t even build the psijiics tower.

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

There’s a middle ground between making the altmer a super-advanced master race and whatever the hell we ended up getting.

So the Altmer have nothing. Not even superior magic. Just tall buildings.

ZOS has officially created the most boring high elves I’ve ever witnessed in a game. If you disagree, please tell me what, if anything, makes the Altmer in any way remarkable or distinct within the fantasy genre.

Faulgor

psychotrip wrote: »

Nevermind the telvanni and all the cool stuff they get. Magically grown mushroom cities, clones, reverse-engineered dwemer automatons. Pointing out inconsistencies conflicts with ZOS’s (and apparently Bethesda’s) “vision”.

If Bethesda/ZOS made Morrowind today, the Tribunal wouldn't actually have god-like powers, the Heart of Lorkhan would just be a fancy name for a big gemstone, and the temple in Mournhold would look like a Jewish Synagogue.

I'm still interested in the quests and the world building they've done for Summerset that isn't visible in a simple screenshot, but so far, I don't see any of it.

Maybe it wouldn't be so upsetting if this wasn't the - outside of Morrowind - supposedly most bizarre place in Tamriel.
We can only go downhill from here.

siebener

Hey Psijic Order is supposed to be the "Telvanni" of Altmers but less interventionist and very centralized, and I think their architecture is unique enough.

High elves in Elder Scrolls are all about traditionalists, hard to innovate, staying the same, xenophobics, mundane and everything must be done according to the guide. Maybe in the Merethic/First age they were the most advance race in Tamriel, but after that not so much. It's 180 degree from Morrowind/Dunmer which is alien and different from other Mer races because Azura teached Dunmers to be different from the Altmers. So the depiction of the Altmers being generic, mundane european fantasy seems appropriate.

If you look another High Elves in other fantasy, they are wise, living in an utopia, fair, philanthropists, angelic, enemy of the evil and very advance in almost everything, which is more generic.

If they are superior in magic, they will invade every corner of Tamriel and reinstate Mer supremacy in no time just like their long time agenda to dethrone Lorkhan/Men. Even with the combined force of Chimer and Dwemer, they were in trouble for a long time handling invading Nords with Thu'um and the Telvannis were losing against Argonians in the Fourth Era.

Their architecture, laws, arts and language influence the Bretons and the Imperials HEAVILY. If the Altmers were supposed to be full unique just like the Dunmers for example with crystals, insect wings and seashell buildings, then the Dunmers weren't unique anymore

...and Men would make buildings with.... insects, seashells, crystals or mushrooms too?

Even Dunmer architecture has brown color and muds on almost everything and based on ancient middle east buildings with other influences.

Except for Morrowind, most Elder Scrolls games are not designed to be trippy.

psychotrip

siebener wrote: »

Hey Psijic Order is supposed to be the "Telvanni" of Altmers but less interventionist and very centralized, and I think their architecture is unique enough.

High elves in Elder Scrolls are all about traditionalists, hard to innovate, staying the same, xenophobics, mundane and everything must be done according to the guide. Maybe in the Merethic/First age they were the most advance race in Tamriel, but after that not so much. It's 180 degree from Morrowind/Dunmer which is alien and different from other Mer races because Azura teached Dunmers to be different from the Altmers. So the depiction of the Altmers being generic, mundane european fantasy seems appropriate.

If you look another High Elves in other fantasy, they are wise, living in an utopia, fair, philanthropists, angelic, enemy of the evil and very advance in almost everything, which is more generic.

If they are superior in magic, they will invade every corner of Tamriel and reinstate Mer supremacy in no time just like their long time agenda to dethrone Lorkhan/Men. Even with the combined force of Chimer and Dwemer, they were in trouble for a long time handling invading Nords with Thu'um and the Telvannis were losing against Argonians in the Fourth Era.

Their architecture, laws, arts and language influence the Bretons and the Imperials HEAVILY. If the Altmers were supposed to be full unique just like the Dunmers for example with crystals, insect wings and seashell buildings, then the Dunmers weren't unique anymore

...and Men would make buildings with.... insects, seashells, crystals or mushrooms too?

Even Dunmer architecture has brown color and muds on almost everything and based on ancient middle east buildings with other influences.

Except for Morrowind, most Elder Scrolls games are not designed to be trippy.

The Psijiics didn't even make their architecture, according to ZOS. And believe it or not, there was a time when every place in Tamriel was meant to be just as strange and unique as Morrowind, in their own unique ways.

But that's not The Elder Scrolls anymore.

ZOS interpreted "human cultures are based on altmer principles" completely literally, without any sense of nuance. Now, we're left with the most generic, indistinguishable high elves I've ever seen in a game.

Hymzir

I am laughing my arse off here... The mundification of TES is strong in ZOS indeed...

The explanation offered by Matt Firor is utterly moronic, but it is in line with what I have grown to expect from ZOS. Everything that is unique and unusual is embellishing by unreliable narrators and the truth is drab and mundane and boring.

Don't know if what he says about Toddy boy is true, but... Well, that don't make much sense much either. With every other PR bit they've kept on yammerign about how strange and weird and unique Tamriel is. And now all of a sudden it's mundane and there's nothing really special about it. It was all just a transcription error. Okay...

I suppose, Skyrim was, in a way, a step towards a less magical and fantastical world than the one portrayed in Oblivion and Morrowind. Except for all those flying lizards, the undead hordes living in the mountains, and all them dwemer robots running about. So yeah, take magic away and no-one will notice anything... Yeah right.

But even if you wanna go with the notion that altmer are just humans with malformed ears and a different moral compass, they still didn't need to go rip of real world architecture. Even the buildings on Auridon are more elven than the stuff shown for Summerset. The Summerset buildings look markedly better as far as detail and textures go, but they also look extremely real world. I can't speak for others, but that is what bugs me. The lack of imagination, not necessarily the lack of advanced magical society. I just wanted to see something new, unique and interesting. Not just another rehash of gothic crap. Going full force mundane does not equate to ripping of real world designs.

While the stuff in Auridon did look a bit too much like Games Workshop high elf terrain pieces, at least those were clearly non real world in design. And they also had more of an organic feel to them with round towers and curved flowing lines, where as the stuff in Summerset has blocky square towers and straight edges and lines. So yeah... Auridon feel more elven to me, even though the designs are bit lacking.

And let's not forget the Ayleid and the Aldmer ruins. What with the Altmer being traditionalists and everything, I was actually hoping something along those lines. I mean Auridon has a bunch of them - does Summerset have some too? There better be, or the internal logic and consistency of the world goes right out of the window.

And all this talk about impossibly tall towers makes me laugh. The buildings aren't actually that tall. Besides they are build on mountain sides, so obviously there is gonna be verticality when you build your city on a slope. If you wanna talk about impossibly tall towers then let's talk White-Gold tower. That thing was made by the Ayleids and they didn't need any stinking flying buttresses to get it that tall. And the towers surrounding the Imperial City are also pretty darn tall, and they aren't based on real world styles and don't need flying buttresses either.

I certainly expected altmer engineers to have figured out a way to build tall towers without relying on such features. And even if they did have to use them, I would've expected them to look different from real world flying buttresses. But no - ZOS copied them straight from real world along with the use of crockets on tower roofs. Those things serve no structural purpose and are a decorative element of gothic architecture. And apparently altmer culture too.

And that is the rub here - not the lack of a magical advanced society with weird ***. The issue is the lack of imagination on the parts of the devs.

But hey... Look at all those impossibly high towards that look like they required magic to make get them that tall, as their recent PR video about Summerset remarked... Guess them "impossibly" tall towers would crumble and fall if magic were to disappear from the world, but I suppose no one would notice since the altmer cities are already full of crumbling structures and ruined buildings. What would a few more matter?

But enough... At the end of the day, the thing is that ZOS botched this one. And I think they know it. They had a plan and an idea but it turned out to not be a good one. Turns out that their customer base actually wanted something else than what they thought. But obviously they will never admit it, since we live in the world where no company ever makes any mistakes and evrything is awesome! All the time! And nothing they do is ever short of great and amazing

siebener

psychotrip wrote: »

The Psijiics didn't even make their architecture, according to ZOS. And believe it or not, there was a time when every place in Tamriel was meant to be just as strange and unique as Morrowind, in their own unique ways.

But that's not The Elder Scrolls anymore.

ZOS interpreted "human cultures are based on altmer principles" completely literally, without any sense of nuance. Now, we're left with the most generic, indistinguishable high elves I've ever seen in a game.

Wow judging the entire franchise by saying it's not the true "game x" anymore because other game releases form the franchise aren't similarly unique compared to a particular title (Morrowind) is ridiculous and people should research carefully when issuing that statement. Even Arena, Daggerfall, Redguard, Battlespire and Oblivion or even Skyrim are very "generic" according to your standard.

The fact wasn't built by the Altmers were originated from ES:Daggerfall, not from ZOS. Even so maintaining, improving and making it operational are the Pjisic's jobs, so who knows the interior of Artaeum was improved by the Psijic itself.

psychotrip wrote: »

And believe it or not, there was a time when every place in Tamriel was meant to be just as strange and unique as Morrowind, in their own unique ways.

You don't want a literal depiction of Altmers influencing other Men's cultures on Tamriel but you want "glass, crystal, seashell and insect buildings" or the Altmers being the most advanced and perfect society on Tamriel to be realized and depicted literally.

Telvanni towers were build upon ancient Aldmeri wizard towers, they improved the towers by growing fungus on top of that, and even the description of Morrowind from PGE1 stated that Morrowind is full with "familiar flora and fauna of Tamriel is exchanged for bizarre and twisted forms", so Morrowind and its people being the most bizarre in Tamriel should reflects that other provinces aren't as unique as Morrowind, but you want Summerset having a petrified forest which the depiction came from C0da (and even it takes place in 9th Era).

Summerset is not Morrowind 2.0, it's the opposite, 180 degree compared to Morrowind (mundane and rigid high fantasy atmosphere). If Summerset cities were built by "growing glass or crystals" or living in "seashell buildings" like your depiction on /r/teslore, then Azura's role to make the Dunmers different from the Altmers wasn't even needed (just replace glasses/crystal with mushroom and seashell with mudcrab carcasses). The Good Daedra would be ashamed.

Damn TES fandom needs to realize that if their fan fictions aren't realized in the series, they shouldn't treat the whole series as "not The Elder Scrolls" anymore.

psychotrip

siebener wrote: »

psychotrip wrote: »

The Psijiics didn't even make their architecture, according to ZOS. And believe it or not, there was a time when every place in Tamriel was meant to be just as strange and unique as Morrowind, in their own unique ways.

But that's not The Elder Scrolls anymore.

ZOS interpreted "human cultures are based on altmer principles" completely literally, without any sense of nuance. Now, we're left with the most generic, indistinguishable high elves I've ever seen in a game.

Wow judging the entire franchise by saying it's not the true "game x" anymore because other game releases form the franchise aren't similarly unique compared to a particular title (Morrowind) is ridiculous and people should research carefully when issuing that statement. Even Arena, Daggerfall, Redguard, Battlespire and Oblivion or even Skyrim are very "generic" according to your standard.

The fact wasn't built by the Altmers were originated from ES:Daggerfall, not from ZOS. Even so maintaining, improving and making it operational are the Pjisic's jobs, so who knows the interior of Artaeum was improved by the Psijic itself.

psychotrip wrote: »

And believe it or not, there was a time when every place in Tamriel was meant to be just as strange and unique as Morrowind, in their own unique ways.

You don't want a literal depiction of Altmers influencing other Men's cultures on Tamriel but you want "glass, crystal, seashell and insect buildings" or the Altmers being the most advanced and perfect society on Tamriel to be realized and depicted literally.

Telvanni towers were build upon ancient Aldmeri wizard towers, they improved the towers by growing fungus on top of that, and even the description of Morrowind from PGE1 stated that Morrowind is full with "familiar flora and fauna of Tamriel is exchanged for bizarre and twisted forms", so Morrowind and its people being the most bizarre in Tamriel should reflects that other provinces aren't as unique as Morrowind, but you want Summerset having a petrified forest which the depiction came from C0da (and even it takes place in 9th Era).

Summerset is not Morrowind 2.0, it's the opposite, 180 degree compared to Morrowind (mundane and rigid high fantasy atmosphere). If Summerset cities were built by "growing glass or crystals" or living in "seashell buildings" like your depiction on /r/teslore, then Azura's role to make the Dunmers different from the Altmers wasn't even needed (just replace glasses/crystal with mushroom and seashell with mudcrab carcasses). The Good Daedra would be ashamed.

Damn TES fandom needs to realize that if their fan fictions aren't realized in the series, they shouldn't treat the whole series as "not The Elder Scrolls" anymore.

Read my signature. There are always multiple inteprretations of everything in ES. ZOS chooses what to take literally. In my opinion, they chose poorly, resulting in completely generic, boring high elves.

I challenge you to tell me what makes the altmer unique in any way. Or even a more interesting version of a pre-existing idea.

Honestly, I’m going to ignore your quips about “fanfiction” as it’s clear you’re just trying to be rude there. This has nothing to do with anyone’s fan-fiction.

This isn’t just about Summerset. It’s the culmination of years of this creative bankruptcy. If you like this, then more power to you. You have every right to do so. Just as I have every right to despise it.

Everything I loved about this series is a transcription error.

inespeloazul

There is absolutely nothing else I can add to this glorious train wreck that hasn't already been said other than to point out my own confusion (and concern) at Matt Firor's quote from Todd Howard.

It's just...so contradictory to TES as a whole and flat out wrong. I hope to god it was made up to make their excuses seem less lame and not how the world is actually viewed by the main team lmao

I also love how this nasty trend of turning everything on Tamriel with a pre-established setting and "aesthetic" into Europe is being excused. Never mind that, just like Oblivion's Cyrodiil, it's been contradicted by in-game things, in the very game they appeared in.

RainfeatherUK

[snip]

If you take racial bonuses and why they are there, take Altmers specifically as their attunement to magic and historical back drop; Then them not having a culture more distinct and reminiscent of a more divine/ancient time period makes no sense at all.

They don't need to be the same Elves in power that crafted the original landscape (for balance) but that doesn't mean their architecture should mimic everyone elses and be completely devoid of past relic and design either.

[snip] Considering how much effort (whether you like them or not) goes into the expansions of the other few top ranked mmorpg games like FFXIV et al; this is a pretty poor showing indeed.

[edited for bashing]

psychotrip

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

[snip] You don't have to be a lore nut, to apply some basic common sense.

If you take racial bonuses and why they are there, take Altmers specifically as their attunement to magic and historical back drop; Then them not having a culture more distinct and reminiscent of a more divine/ancient time period makes no sense at all.

They don't need to be the same Elves in power that crafted the original landscape (for balance) but that doesn't mean their architecture should mimic everyone elses and be completely devoid of past relic and design either.

[snip] Considering how much effort (whether you like them or not) goes into the expansions of the other few top games like FFXIV et al; this is a pretty poor showing indeed.

Well, this is The Elder Scrolls now whether we like it or not. The dunmer are allowed to be creative and magically advanced, but not the race that's supposedly the best at magic. The world apparently wouldn't change much if you took away magic. Let's not mention how this contradicts with the plot of every single game in the series.

Let's not mention how magically advanced others were allowed to be in previous games. Pointing out narrative and thematic inconsistency conflicts with their "vision".

[edited to remove quote]

siebener

What if they chose the Altmers to be "mundane, boring and generic fantasy" because it's philosophical? Because it seems that ZOS/BGS has taken this Altmer depiction to show that the Altmers are a bunch of hypocrites who always look down other races simply because they are different, rejecting innovations because they want to keep their "purity" and don't care about Mundus because it's a prison according to them.

Being hypocrite, close minded, pretentious, xenophobe and conservative doesn't mean they are better on every way and in reality they aren't really that great. Even Vanus Galerion were punished because he read a book.

[snip]

The same logic can be applied to the Altmers and the Summerset Isle. Everything looks good (although not as good as people have imagined), but deep down it's a hell, you could even read a note from a dead Argonian from the demo which had clarified this.

I'm not going to defend ZOS bit they did some great works on other "alien" cultures like Orc/Wrothgar, Khajiits, Argonians, and even made Clockwork City looks more bizarre than in TES3. But to make a conclusion this early from an alpha-build demo which has a lot of missing assets and reused textures or doesn't match your imaginations at all then make the final conclusion that Summerset's depiction is a creative bankruptcy then whining to this forum, reddit, youtube for almost everyday is seemingly childish. It hasn't even on the PTS yet and the quests/narrative are still mysterious.

Even about "transcription error" regarding to Cyrodiil jungles, it came from Phratus of Elinhir's statement which it's more like his own opinion. His rival, Lady Cinnabar of Taneth, stated that Cyrodiil was filled with jungles before, then Men took over WTG and slowly changed Cyrodill's climate, although maybe the real reason is because it's a mess created by Tiber Septim's CHIM. They can be found in Imperial Sewers arguing each other.

[edited for inappropriate content]

RainfeatherUK

psychotrip wrote: »

"vision".

Or rather, lack of.

As for the above, the Altmer's ego that you reference reinforces the idea of grandeur. They wouldn't have settled for anything mediocre, their designs are supposedly ancient and of legend. Not a rehash of the mainland mashed together.

I don't think anyone can defend the thematic effort put into Summerset. Not if they are being intellectually honest and respectful not just to lore - but to fan expectation.

It's hard to imagine Firor is being honest with his quotes of Howard. As stated in the thread however 'this is what we are getting', so whatevs right? [eyeroll].

grizzledcroc

Why do people think he's lying bout what Howard has said, it totally fits in with what Howard wants from his games lol. He destroyed Fallouts lore to hell and back why do people think he won't to the elder scrolls?

RainfeatherUK

Perhaps because doing so is intellectually obtuse. To put forth an appeal to authority, claiming just cause for not bothering your arse, is laughable at best. Regardless of what the original quote was taken to imply.

If the genuine idea by the management was to subvert or 'destroy' the lore, you'd have to be mentally deficient to stay on the ship for the ride. It lacks plausibility on that basis, so I've discarded the 'quote' altogether.

Nelson_Rebel

[snip]

If magic left no one would notice? [snip] just WOW. [snip]

[edited for bashing & profanity bypass]

Faulgor

RainfeatherUK wrote: »

[snip] You don't have to be a lore nut, to apply some basic common sense.

If you take racial bonuses and why they are there, take Altmers specifically as their attunement to magic and historical back drop; Then them not having a culture more distinct and reminiscent of a more divine/ancient time period makes no sense at all.

They don't need to be the same Elves in power that crafted the original landscape (for balance) but that doesn't mean their architecture should mimic everyone elses and be completely devoid of past relic and design either.

[snip] Considering how much effort (whether you like them or not) goes into the expansions of the other few top ranked mmorpg games like FFXIV et al; this is a pretty poor showing indeed.

His statement also rubs me in two other ways.
First, he says that the sources on the Altmer contradict each other, but there is no source that describes Altmeri cities as "basically what you see in High Rock". The only accounts of Summerset architecture are much more fantastical than this. They didn't just took these different sources and found a middle ground, they just threw them out.
And second, he presumes that just because a society is advanced, that would have caused them to conquer the whole continent. What shortisghted nonsense. That portrays Altmer isolationism as a mere consequence of lack of ability to dominate, when it has philosophical, metaphysical and dare I say it, magical roots. As if ability and intent were the same thing.

Oh and third, Altmer not being more advanced in possibly every way also conflicts with almost every instance they came into conflict with the rest of Tamriel. Even when they lost to Tiber Septim, they were the last province to fall, and their defeat wouldn't have stung their culture so deeply if it wasn't something previously unthinkable. This wounded cultural ego is essential to understand the history of Summerset and the whole of Tamriel in all the centuries that followed, especially the Great War that preceded TESV.
Thus, turning the Altmer into just another nation of pig farmers not only cheapens their own characterization, but also in contrast Tiber's and Numidium's legendary might, because after all, it didn't take that much to defeat the Altmer.

[edited to remove quote]

RainfeatherUK

I don't think logic and consistency is really a ZoS forte unfortunately.

Having summerset be so mundane and ordinary, is akin to them saying 'Oh right.. well he's called dragonborn because it's the year of the dragon and that's when he was born - other than that he's just an ordinary bloke who works down the pub in whiterun. There's not any actual magic or story involved because the lore is open to interpretation; but that's ok we felt it was unlikely to be missed'.

I mean under this 'being economical with the lore' standard, whose telling where the rabbit hole ends >_<