Summerset architecture.
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psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kevduit's video shows Summerset exploration including architecture and some of the creatures that inhabit the island
I CANNOT WAIT TO GO THERE!!!!!! Its soo beautiful!!! I love the buildings!!!!
https://youtu.be/LVIGinD_7x8
I respect your opinion, but it just looks so bland and washed out to me. I mean, do we really not have enough forests with gray, medieval European cities in Tamriel? Either way, I can't imagine playing through an entire expansion (or "chapter) with just one environment. They couldn't even bother to make the cities look different.
It honestly doesn’t even look like the same race that makes elven and glass armor made these cities. Where’s the organic shapes and abstract shapes? It’s visually inconsistent as well as bland.
Even Cloudrest, supposedly at the peak of the highest mountain, feels indistinguishable from the shoreline. It's just boring and repetitive to me to me.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
VerboseQuips✭✭✭✭✭What a relief! Buildings made of glass confirmed!
Seriously, though, I would loooove to have such a greenhouse in a player house.
(And functional gardening, too, but that's off-topic. ) My characters:Main and crafter: A Breton magicka templar named Erwann Sorril
Alt 1: A Bosmer sorcerer named Tuuneleg
Alt 2: An Imperial dragonknight named Gaius Tullius Hastifer
Alt 3: An Argonian vampire/nightblade named Observe-le-Xanmeer
Alt 4: A Nord werewolf/dragonknight named Sigurd Hurlevent
Alt 5: A Breton sorcerer named Gilian Sorril (he's Erwann's younger brother)
Alt 6: A Khajiit nightblade named Jolan-dar
Alt 7: A Nord warden named Sigurmar Hurlevent (he's Sigurd's younger brother)
Alt 8: An Altmer templar named Oioriel
Alt 9: An Argonian stamina Warden named Danse-avec-les-Rainettes
Alt 10: A Redguard templar named Neemokh af-Corelanya
Alt 11: A Nord stamina sorcerer named Olga Écoute-Vent
Alt 12: A Breton magicka Warden named Ian Sorril
Alt 13: A Dunmer magicka necromancer named Ilmoran Dren
Alt 14: An Orc stamina necromancer named Norgol gro-Borziel
Alt 15: A Nord magicka necromancer named Thorgen Givresang
Alt 16: An Imperial magicka dragonknight named Publius Valeirus Hastifer (Just call him "Valerio" - he's Gaius younger troublemaker of a brother)
Main in NA (For collaborative events): A Breton magicka nightblade named Titouan Sorril (long-lost brother of Erwann and Gilian)0 -
Plajhengenuin✭✭✭TheNuminous1 wrote: »so all this hype behind insect wing buildings and glass and crystal. none of it was anything more then the account of an imperial writing a book. Not Concrete Information.
Here is a passage from in-game bookTheNuminous1 wrote: »ok so im still not seeing the whole crystal thing. high towers. check. windows that can fragment light check. this description sounds exactly like what ive seen today.
True, it doesn't say that towers are made of crystal, but at least they should look like they are.We landed in Skywatch today. Captain Kaleen took me ashore! I thought the Dark Elves were crazy, but the High Elves build like they want to prove something. You can't take two steps without seeing some crazy spire thing. They're nuts.
<Nicolene sketched a bunch of towers here, all in a row. They might be made of crystal.>
Apart from this, judging from what I have seen so far, I do like Summerset architecture and think it's very pretty, it's just... not at all what I've expected.Edited by Plajhengenuin on April 4, 2018 12:37PM3 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kevduit's video shows Summerset exploration including architecture and some of the creatures that inhabit the island
I CANNOT WAIT TO GO THERE!!!!!! Its soo beautiful!!! I love the buildings!!!!https://youtu.be/LVIGinD_7x8
The zone looks amazing, I already love it.
But jesus christ, they invited people like him to the reveal? The video made my nose bleed just by watching it, his audience must be, what, 8 years old? -_-2 -
VerboseQuips✭✭✭✭✭Plajhengenuin wrote: »TheNuminous1 wrote: »so all this hype behind insect wing buildings and glass and crystal. none of it was anything more then the account of an imperial writing a book. Not Concrete Information.
Here is a passage from in-game bookTheNuminous1 wrote: »ok so im still not seeing the whole crystal thing. high towers. check. windows that can fragment light check. this description sounds exactly like what ive seen today.
True, it doesn't say that towers are made of crystal, but at least they should look like they are.We landed in Skywatch today. Captain Kaleen took me ashore! I thought the Dark Elves were crazy, but the High Elves build like they want to prove something. You can't take two steps without seeing some crazy spire thing. They're nuts.
<Nicolene sketched a bunch of towers here, all in a row. They might be made of crystal.>
Apart from this, judging from what I have seen so far, I do like Summerset architecture and think it's very pretty, it's just... not at all what I've expected.
One can't stress enough that the source you're mentioning is from ESO itself, not a previous game. Also, it's a private diary. The argument of "wanting to impress readers who won't be able to go there anyways" doesn't apply.
Well... I guess it was an unreliable narrator again. "Testis unus, testis nullus", the ancient Romans said, but we are starting to find a nummber of compatible accounts, aren't we?
(The funny thing is that Skywatch is already in-game, and does not match this description, either...)Edited by VerboseQuips on April 4, 2018 12:43PMMy characters:Main and crafter: A Breton magicka templar named Erwann Sorril
Alt 1: A Bosmer sorcerer named Tuuneleg
Alt 2: An Imperial dragonknight named Gaius Tullius Hastifer
Alt 3: An Argonian vampire/nightblade named Observe-le-Xanmeer
Alt 4: A Nord werewolf/dragonknight named Sigurd Hurlevent
Alt 5: A Breton sorcerer named Gilian Sorril (he's Erwann's younger brother)
Alt 6: A Khajiit nightblade named Jolan-dar
Alt 7: A Nord warden named Sigurmar Hurlevent (he's Sigurd's younger brother)
Alt 8: An Altmer templar named Oioriel
Alt 9: An Argonian stamina Warden named Danse-avec-les-Rainettes
Alt 10: A Redguard templar named Neemokh af-Corelanya
Alt 11: A Nord stamina sorcerer named Olga Écoute-Vent
Alt 12: A Breton magicka Warden named Ian Sorril
Alt 13: A Dunmer magicka necromancer named Ilmoran Dren
Alt 14: An Orc stamina necromancer named Norgol gro-Borziel
Alt 15: A Nord magicka necromancer named Thorgen Givresang
Alt 16: An Imperial magicka dragonknight named Publius Valeirus Hastifer (Just call him "Valerio" - he's Gaius younger troublemaker of a brother)
Main in NA (For collaborative events): A Breton magicka nightblade named Titouan Sorril (long-lost brother of Erwann and Gilian)1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Summerset architecture remind me a bit, Beauclair in Witcher 3.
Wow, even a grounded, gritty fantasy world has cities with more color than ESO. I should also
note that this is a human city shown above.No one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.2 -
Plajhengenuin✭✭✭
Yes, exactly!VerboseQuips wrote: »One can't stress enough that the source you're mentioning is from ESO itself, not a previous game. Also, it's a private diary. The argument of "wanting to impress readers who won't be able to go there anyways" doesn't apply.
True. I thought "crystal towers" were cut out due to some production processes, but would be part of mainland Isles' buildings. Guess not.VerboseQuips wrote: »(The funny thing is that Skywatch is already in-game, and does not match this description, either...)
To be perfectly honest, the palace itself was originally build by the elves, Aen Seidhe.psychotrip wrote: »I should also
note that this is a human city shown above.0 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kevduit's video shows Summerset exploration including architecture and some of the creatures that inhabit the island
I CANNOT WAIT TO GO THERE!!!!!! Its soo beautiful!!! I love the buildings!!!!https://youtu.be/LVIGinD_7x8
lol, even he compares Alinor to Disney World.
Yes, it is a kind of pretty rendition of Anor Londo. But it's nothing that says "Altmer".Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.2 -
Hymzir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Summerset architecture remind me a bit, Beauclair in Witcher 3.
That is pretty much the same indeed, just in a tad darker tone.
As for the video posted above, showing actual in game footage of the cities... Well, they are really well made, but then again, no one has argued against that at any point, I think.
It is, however, really, really, really gothic in its design. Way too European, way too real world for my liking. I particularly detest the use of flying buttresses in their design. They just don't say high elf to me. They even copied the use of crockets and finials, for effs sake. The interior of the Queens palace is stoically gothic in its blandness. The details are nice, and the overall look is nice. But it isn't elven.
With all that said, the things that most aggravates me are the rough granite block stone houses. I can live with the white knock offs of gothic church towers glued to 18th century manor houses, but the thing that I can't get my head around is, why they thought that those rough stone block houses would fit the idea of high elven homes. You can see one example of them at 3:45 in the video.
meh...
I suppose, if you aren't creatively capable of coming up with something unique, then gothic is a fair choice to pilfer for the style of high elves, what with its fixation with height, pointed arches and majestic buildings. But all the same, it still is a let down, and far from the alien landscape we were hoping for.Edited by Hymzir on April 4, 2018 2:24PM6 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Summerset architecture remind me a bit, Beauclair in Witcher 3.
With all that said, the things that most aggravates me are the rough granite block stone houses. I can live with the white knock offs of gothic church towers glued to 18th century manor houses, but the thing that I can't get my head around is, why they thought that those rough stone block houses would fit the idea of high elven homes. You can see one example of them at 3:45 in the video.
meh...
Because they have no ideas for the Altmer aside from generic high elven tropes. Whenever theyre out of ideas, they retreat into gray, "safe", colorless landmarks.
Edited by psychotrip on April 4, 2018 5:11PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
JD2013✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »Summerset architecture remind me a bit, Beauclair in Witcher 3.
With all that said, the things that most aggravates me are the rough granite block stone houses. I can live with the white knock offs of gothic church towers glued to 18th century manor houses, but the thing that I can't get my head around is, why they thought that those rough stone block houses would fit the idea of high elven homes. You can see one example of them at 3:45 in the video.
meh...
Because they have no ideas for the Altmer aside from generic high elven tropes. Whenever theyre out of ideas, they retreat into gray, "safe", colorless landmark.
You seem very bitter about this. Like, obsessively so.
Skyrim in ES V was not massively like the Skyrim described in lore.
Cyrodiil in Oblivion was a lot more generic fantasy than thought.
All areas in ES I and II Looked generic (Yes, I do understand this is because of limitations back then in engine)
The only place that looks as weird as we think is Vvardenfell. Maybe Black Marsh is very weird looking? Elsweyr is probably quite odd looking too.
As it is, to me, Summerset looks neat, pristine and orderly and very tall. Which is partly as we thought. You also must understand that the engine is 8 - 10 years old. Maybe if we go to Summerset in a main ES game it will be very different? Who knows? Maybe it is all insect wings and glass. But maybe, just maybe, what you built in your head can never be lived up to?Sweetrolls for all!
Christophe Mottierre - Breton Templar with his own whole darn estate! Templar Houses are so 2015. EU DC
PC Beta Tester January 2014
Elder of The Black
Order of Sithis
The Runners
@TamrielTraverse - For Tamriel related Twitter shenanigans!
https://tamrieltraveller.wordpress.com/
Crafting bag OP! ZOS nerf pls!3 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »Summerset architecture remind me a bit, Beauclair in Witcher 3.
With all that said, the things that most aggravates me are the rough granite block stone houses. I can live with the white knock offs of gothic church towers glued to 18th century manor houses, but the thing that I can't get my head around is, why they thought that those rough stone block houses would fit the idea of high elven homes. You can see one example of them at 3:45 in the video.
meh...
Because they have no ideas for the Altmer aside from generic high elven tropes. Whenever theyre out of ideas, they retreat into gray, "safe", colorless landmark.
You seem very bitter about this. Like, obsessively so.
Skyrim in ES V was not massively like the Skyrim described in lore.
Cyrodiil in Oblivion was a lot more generic fantasy than thought.
All areas in ES I and II Looked generic (Yes, I do understand this is because of limitations back then in engine)
The only place that looks as weird as we think is Vvardenfell. Maybe Black Marsh is very weird looking? Elsweyr is probably quite odd looking too.
As it is, to me, Summerset looks neat, pristine and orderly and very tall. Which is partly as we thought. You also must understand that the engine is 8 - 10 years old. Maybe if we go to Summerset in a main ES game it will be very different? Who knows? Maybe it is all insect wings and glass. But maybe, just maybe, what you built in your head can never be lived up to?
Yes, and I have gripes with that stuff too. I'm glad you enjoy this, but many others simply don't. Everyone has something they take a little too seriously. I grew up with this series. It launched my career. The way I feel about The Elder Scrolls is no crazier than the way some people feel about Star Wars (a series I love but don't obsess over).
Also, the argument that the engine can't handle anything more creative and visually interesting falls apart when you see what they did with Artaeum, Morrowind, Valenwood etc.Edited by psychotrip on April 4, 2018 4:01PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.4 -
moonio✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »Kevduit's video shows Summerset exploration including architecture and some of the creatures that inhabit the island
I CANNOT WAIT TO GO THERE!!!!!! Its soo beautiful!!! I love the buildings!!!!https://youtu.be/LVIGinD_7x8
I respect your opinion, but it just looks so bland and washed out to me. I mean, do we really not have enough forests with gray, medieval European cities in Tamriel? Either way, I can't imagine playing through an entire expansion (or "chapter) with just one environment. They couldn't even bother to make the cities look different.
I think a city made out of glass would be to prickly on the eyes for a computer game, can you imaging every time you moved reflections from different facets of the glass structures would ping into your eye..
I couldn't play like that, it could also induce seizures and epileptic fits in some players, so I think ZOS took the health and safety route here.
Also how rare is glass crafting material in the game?
Do you think the builders could afford to make a whole city out of glass, then have to protect it from pillagers etc.
It would be like making a city out of gold...1 -
Sneaky-Snurr✭✭✭✭✭Feels like another regular DLC. Come on, ZoS. You done [snip] it up, mate.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 10, 2023 5:34PMThe Order of the Shadows: Nightmare-
EP CP810 Nightblade
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AD CP810 Templar
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AD CP810 Dragon Knight
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AD Lvl 25 Sorceror
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DC Lvl 23 Nightblade
Shadow hide you. -Unknown
There is no clean fight in a war. -Shun Izaki4 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »Kevduit's video shows Summerset exploration including architecture and some of the creatures that inhabit the island
I CANNOT WAIT TO GO THERE!!!!!! Its soo beautiful!!! I love the buildings!!!!https://youtu.be/LVIGinD_7x8
I respect your opinion, but it just looks so bland and washed out to me. I mean, do we really not have enough forests with gray, medieval European cities in Tamriel? Either way, I can't imagine playing through an entire expansion (or "chapter) with just one environment. They couldn't even bother to make the cities look different.
I think a city made out of glass would be to prickly on the eyes for a computer game, can you imaging every time you moved reflections from different facets of the glass structures would ping into your eye..
I couldn't play like that, it could also induce seizures and epileptic fits in some players, so I think ZOS took the health and safety route here.
Also how rare is glass crafting material in the game?
Do you think the builders could afford to make a whole city out of glass, then have to protect it from pillagers etc.
It would be like making a city out of gold...
It didn't have to be a city literally made of glass. You're setting up a false dichotomy. There's a million miles between that and this generic, bland, grey mess. This is just so far in the opposite direction it's laughable.
Let's just reiterate the main problems I have, because I feel like we're losing the plot:
1. Zenimax chose the most boring interpretation possible (in my opinion).
2. This interpretation is completely inconsistent from everything we've seen in-game so far. How the hell is this the same culture that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? It looks closer to a breton city.
3. They're only giving Summerset one single building style, while Morrowind got three. It seems they ran out of ideas pretty fast.
4. Even though they kept repeating how Altmer obsess over the past and preservation and keeping things the same, the isle is littered with crumbling ruins, even in the middle of their towns. Are ZOS's own words "transcription errors" now?
Edited by psychotrip on April 4, 2018 4:00PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.4 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This. Very true. I´m not expecting full-glass infinite towers and miriads of glowing bridges crossing them (though it would be nice). But I expected something new, unique, elvish, fantastical. I got european architecture. Where is creativity? I expected way, way more from professional designers. [snip] Come on people, where is your sense of "fantasy"? I cannot conform with this artistic conception. [snip] It´s breton architecture, by the nine!
This is my personal view. I´m really disappointed with the art direction responsible of this architectural design. [snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 10, 2023 5:36PM6 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭TelvanniWizard wrote: »This. Very true. I´m not expecting full-glass infinite towers and miriads of glowing bridges crossing them (though it would be nice). But I expected something new, unique, elvish, fantastical. I got european architecture. Where is creativity? I expected way, way more from professional designers. [snip] Come on people, where is your sense of "fantasy"? I cannot conform with this artistic conception. [snip] It´s breton architecture, by the nine!
This is my personal view. I´m really disappointed with the art direction responsible of this architectural design. [snip]
Lol I think you formatted your post a little weirdly, at least at the time I'm replying to this. I agree with you though. If nothing else, it's just uninspired. What separates this place from any other medieval european fantasy land?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 10, 2023 5:38PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.2 -
moonio✭✭✭✭Well how about this, cities do change over time... structures are rebuilt with different materials and styles to reflect their histories.
When we visit Summerset is it even concurrent to the time of the city's founding fathers? I'm not so drenched in lore that I would know this...
For all we know the original ESO Summerset WAS made of glass crystal, but through the years the city has been remade differently. Maybe the ruined structures reflect the values of the city's current or more recent inhabitants..
0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well how about this, cities do change over time... structures are rebuilt with different materials and styles to reflect their histories.
When we visit Summerset is it even concurrent to the time of the city's founding fathers? I'm not so drenched in lore that I would know this...
For all we know the original ESO Summerset WAS made of glass crystal, but through the years the city has been remade differently. Maybe the ruined structures reflect the values of the city's current or more recent inhabitants..
These are all just more contrived excuses for poor worldbuilding and a lack of imagination.
This still doesn't explain the ruins everywhere, especially when ZOS told us the Altmer (as in, the Altmer in this expansion) value preservation and the past.
It also doesn't jive with the fact that these cities are supposed to be thousands of years old and relatively unchanged since they were built. It's lazy to just claim "oh well they'll rebuild them cooler later!". How many times are we gonna cover up for ZOS / Bethesda's mistakes before we realize The Elder Scrolls is just a generic, typical medieval fantasy world?Edited by psychotrip on April 4, 2018 4:08PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
Faulgor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »Well how about this, cities do change over time... structures are rebuilt with different materials and styles to reflect their histories.
When we visit Summerset is it even concurrent to the time of the city's founding fathers? I'm not so drenched in lore that I would know this...
For all we know the original ESO Summerset WAS made of glass crystal, but through the years the city has been remade differently. Maybe the ruined structures reflect the values of the city's current or more recent inhabitants..
These are all just more contrived excuses for poor worldbuilding and a lack of imagination.
This still doesn't explain the ruins everywhere, especially when ZOS told us the Altmer (as in, the Altmer in this expansion) value preservation and the past.
It also doesn't jive with the fact that these cities are supposed to be thousands of years old and relatively unchanged since they were built. It's lazy to just claim "oh well they'll rebuild them cooler later!". How many times are we gonna cover up for ZOS / Bethesda's mistakes before we realize The Elder Scrolls is just a generic, typical medieval fantasy world?
It's my hunch that it's a deliberate design decision to keep the "main world" mundane and relatable so the weird stuff stands out much more in contrast. Like the end fight against Dagon in Oblivion, Blackreach/Sovngarde in Skyrim, and several elements in ESO.
Overall this is not a terrible approach. The issue is that Summerset is the contrast to Tamriel. It's supposed to be the weird place. Instead, they kept the formula, made Summerset proper bland and relegated everything weird to the Psijic.Alandrol Sul: He's making another Numidium?!?
Vivec: Worse, buddy. They're buying it.4 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »Well how about this, cities do change over time... structures are rebuilt with different materials and styles to reflect their histories.
When we visit Summerset is it even concurrent to the time of the city's founding fathers? I'm not so drenched in lore that I would know this...
For all we know the original ESO Summerset WAS made of glass crystal, but through the years the city has been remade differently. Maybe the ruined structures reflect the values of the city's current or more recent inhabitants..
These are all just more contrived excuses for poor worldbuilding and a lack of imagination.
This still doesn't explain the ruins everywhere, especially when ZOS told us the Altmer (as in, the Altmer in this expansion) value preservation and the past.
It also doesn't jive with the fact that these cities are supposed to be thousands of years old and relatively unchanged since they were built. It's lazy to just claim "oh well they'll rebuild them cooler later!". How many times are we gonna cover up for ZOS / Bethesda's mistakes before we realize The Elder Scrolls is just a generic, typical medieval fantasy world?
It's my hunch that it's a deliberate design decision to keep the "main world" mundane and relatable so the weird stuff stands out much more in contrast. Like the end fight against Dagon in Oblivion, Blackreach/Sovngarde in Skyrim, and several elements in ESO.
Overall this is not a terrible approach. The issue is that Summerset is the contrast to Tamriel. It's supposed to be the weird place. Instead, they kept the formula, made Summerset proper bland and relegated everything weird to the Psijic.
Well said. Even more grounded places can be creative and interesting however, without going over the top. I don't feel like Zenimax understands the difference, and regardless I agree that Summerset should've been just as creative and strange as Morrowind and Valenwood (albeit in different ways of course).
Edited by psychotrip on April 4, 2018 5:22PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
moonio✭✭✭✭This video shows how Summerset was built on the ruins of previous Elven cultures, which confirms that the city architecture and building styles morph and change over time.
Go to time code 30:20
https://youtu.be/v_eMIzPiokI 1 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭This video shows how Summerset was built on the ruins of previous Elven cultures, which confirms that the city architecture and building styles morph and change over time.
Go to time code 30:20https://youtu.be/v_eMIzPiokI
It’s still a contrived excuse for uninspired worldbuilding to say, “maybe the cities will be rebuilt cooler later!”
We get so caught up with in-universe explanations for everything that we forget that in real life there’s a company making choices. My argument is that Zenimax’s choices have made Summerset one of the most artistically derivative uninspired places I’ve ever seen in a fantasy MMO.
I mean, what distinguishes Summerset from any of the thousands of generic forests with medieval european cities?
***, what even distinguishes the Altmer from typical high elves anymore? This series has retreated back into the D&D rip-offs from which it was trying to distinguish itself. We’ve gone back to the arena / daggerfall days, before the series had come into its own. This is The Elder Scrolls now: typical, derivative, “normal” fantasy. It’s just sad, dude.Edited by psychotrip on April 5, 2018 1:23PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
moonio✭✭✭✭To be honest I wouldn't play this game if it looked too fantastical, I play it because it looks kinda real within a historical context..
I guess everyone has their own taste aesthetically and that is what makes art so interesting, I personally think Summerset looks really cool.
Please show an example of how you think it should look, as it I don't really understand what you want.
Where I live every other building is made out of glass and its so boring
3 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭@moonio I said it before and I'll say it again:It didn't have to be a city literally made of glass. You're setting up a false dichotomy. There's a million miles between that and this generic, bland, grey mess. This is just so far in the opposite direction it's laughable.
Let's just reiterate the main problems I have, because I feel like we're losing the plot:
1. Zenimax chose the most boring interpretation possible (in my opinion).
2. This interpretation is completely inconsistent from everything we've seen in-game so far. How the hell is this the same culture that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? It looks closer to a breton city.
3. They're only giving Summerset one single building style, while Morrowind got three. It seems they ran out of ideas pretty fast.
4. Even though they kept repeating how Altmer obsess over the past and preservation and keeping things the same, the isle is littered with crumbling ruins, even in the middle of their towns. Are ZOS's own words "transcription errors" now?
Here are some examples. Fans, and even current and former developers, have been making artwork based on Summerset since 1998 (when the original descriptions were published). The following includes official concept art (even some from ESO), more recent work by former developers, and pure fan-art that I think captures the heart of Altmer society:
Official artwork on altmer clothing. Note the organic shapes. Sort of like what we eventually got for the dunmer. Elegant and alien: the way elves are supposed to be.
Some relatively recent artwork from one of the old writers. He's also the guy who created the Altmer's lore. It's from a decidedly non-canon story, but this is how he designed Altmer to be.
A petrified forest by the same artist.
Altmer and Sload Ruins
Ancient aldmer ruins? They were the most advanced, "perfect" society in existence. I would've loved to see some of this science-fantasy artistic weirdness scattered around.
Notice how lush and tropical this ESO concept art is. God, I wish I could live here.
These are actually concept art for New Sheoth, but I'd love to see an altmer city take inspiration from it.
I understand that you're more into gritty, realistic fantasy, but many of us got into The Elder Scrolls specifically because it wasn't following that trend. The developers were trying to get away from that stuff when they released the first lore book. It was basically a soft-reboot of the game's lore, moving away from what they considered a more generic fantasy world (as seen in Arena and Daggerfall) and toward something a bit more unique (as seen in Battlespire, Redguard, Morrowind, Shivering Isles, and to a much lesser extent Skyrim). Before this, elves weren't Mer, high elves were more like wood elves (as seen in King Edward), and khajiit were human (no cat forms yet). The Elder Scrolls became what it is today by being creative and unique.
But even gritty, realistic worlds are more colorful and interesting than ESO's Summerset. Look at this city from The Witcher 3. Not only does this exemplify just how typical Summerset is (the buildings look kinda similar, huh?) but this city has something Alinor doesn't: some damn color.
So this goes beyond being grounded vs. being weird. Zenimax just made a drab place, both similar to dozens of other fantasy worlds but somehow even less visually interesting.Edited by psychotrip on April 5, 2018 6:54PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
Hymzir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
There's lot more that you can do with glass than modern towers and blocks. (Not a fan of the Shard myself, though "The Onion", properly fantasied up, would've made an interesting choice for a High Elf building.)To be honest I wouldn't play this game if it looked too fantastical, I play it because it looks kinda real within a historical context..
I guess everyone has their own taste aesthetically and that is what makes art so interesting, I personally think Summerset looks really cool.
Please show an example of how you think it should look, as it I don't really understand what you want.
Where I live every other building is made out of glass and its so boring
I think TelvanniWizard summed it up pretty well with this:
Where is the sense of fantasy indeed...TelvanniWizard wrote: »I´m not expecting full-glass infinite towers and miriads of glowing bridges crossing them (though it would be nice). But I expected something new, unique, elvish, fantastical. I got european architecture. Where is creativity? I expected way, way more from professional designers. [snip] Come on people, where is your sense of "fantasy"?
Look at the Dunmer architecture, and then tell me where their real world counterparts are.
Well... You can't really do that, since they do not exist. There are elements and design themes that are vaguely familiar, and seem to hint towards varied bits from here and there around the world. There is a distinct Asian feel to them, but not something that you could really place in any particular real world location.
The Elder Scroll Dunmer style is a good example of doing fantasy design right. It's familiar, yet alien. It's unique and evocative, but still believable. It's its own thing, and it is something that you can imagine to exist for real somewhere, in some distant alien world. But not something you recognise or expect to find here on our good old planet Earth.
The same can be said for the Orsimer stuff - it's definitely its own thing. It speaks of the character of the Orcs, and is distinct from the fares of other ES races. It is believable, plausible and not something that really exists in our own world.
I also like the Khajiti style, it's a bit too much Southeast Asian in my mind, but it certainly is different from the rest and fits the land inhabited by Khajits quite well.
All of these are also fairly distinct from fantasy architecture offered in other games. They are their own distinct things.
That is what people are disappointed with here - the Altmer stuff looks real world, Gothic, European, and similar to bunch of other games. An the similarity with the Disney castle style is not helping things either!
As for what I personally wanted - Well, I don't know... Something better I suppose. Am not actually all that picky about it. I mean, I have my own vision of what High Elven buildings should look like, but it's not like I expected them to do anything like what I had in mind. I would've been pretty happy with just about anything, as long as it was not recognisably real world in design.
In fact, if they had somehow managed to scan my brain and create a world from my own visions, then I'd have been even more disappointed than I am with what we got. Partly because then my "vision" would no longer be mine, and partly because I do not want them to sell me my own vision. I want to experience something different from my vision, something new and interesting.
Matching my own ideas has never been the point in any of this. What I look for in games, and fantasy in general, is something different from what my own imagination provides. But even so, I want it to be interesting, unique and to have that sense of fantasy. And copying real life styles and designs is not it.
So I am not gonna provide you with an example of how I imagine High Elven architecture to look like, sInce that is not what I want from this game. I can, however, provide you with a bunch of images, some from the real world and some from the imagination of others, showing what elven buildings could look like.
All you really need to do is google elven architecture or high elven architecture.
So how about this one?
Or this one?
or even this one?
A couple of minutes of clicking landed me on the Deviant art page of SnowSkadi and just on that one gallery alone, there are several cool visions of what "alien" and "unique" Summerset architecture could've looked like.
Like something along these lines...
Or maybe they could've gone for something like this?
Neither is what I have in mind for High Elves, but I'd been perfectly happy with either one. However, of the various visions offered by SnowSkadi, this is by far my personal favourite:
If Summerset had gone with something like that, then I'd be pretty stoked about it.
And on that note, this is much closer to what the throne room in Shimmerene should've looked liked:
The thing is, that people have spent decades on dreaming up how High Elven stuff should look, and there are tons of interesting ideas and design choices available. And on that ground, once again, I cannot emphasize how much of an artistic let down it is to go with the Gothic style they chose. At least they could've spiced it up a bit with some unusual or alien features. But no, it's pretty much lifted whole cloth from the Gothic playbook. The only elven bits are the wooden structures and the various bits of garnish scattered here and there on the buildings. But the general shapes and design elements are Gothic all the way.
There's plenty of "elven" looking stuff in the real world too, no need to limit one's design to Gothic stuff...
Here's a flowing organic ornamental facade:
And an intricate design on a stairwell with flowing lines:
Or how about this as a basis on what High Elf homes should've looked like instead of rough granite block buildings:
In fact, go check the wiki page for Villa Majorelle - that building has tons of ideas you could easily adapt for Altmer culture and design style.
As for real life examples, of "insect wing" design in action, how about these two:
So yeah... Hope that helps to understand what the hubbup is all about.
And finally, once more for the record: I think Summerset looks fine. Based on the videos I've seen, there is lot of nice little details, and the cities are well made. So, yeah, it's okay, I'll play it. But it is not inspiring, it is not unique and it's a real bummer design wise. So much wasted potential. A squandered opportunity to go for something truly memorable. Oh well... Them's the breaks and all that.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 10, 2023 5:39PM9 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The last two posts with image recopilations are really awesome. That´s the kind of inspiration I expected would be used in Summerset.3 -
VerboseQuips✭✭✭✭✭@Hymzir Nice collection of pictures. I like Gaudi's house too, although I'd have seen it more for Sloadish corallian architecture.
Imagine this, for example, with the pillars made of coral, in the underbelly of Cloudrest:
One might also want to check Luc Schuiten's city concepts:
Maybe a less Altmeri in nature, but I like its integration in the environment.My characters:Main and crafter: A Breton magicka templar named Erwann Sorril
Alt 1: A Bosmer sorcerer named Tuuneleg
Alt 2: An Imperial dragonknight named Gaius Tullius Hastifer
Alt 3: An Argonian vampire/nightblade named Observe-le-Xanmeer
Alt 4: A Nord werewolf/dragonknight named Sigurd Hurlevent
Alt 5: A Breton sorcerer named Gilian Sorril (he's Erwann's younger brother)
Alt 6: A Khajiit nightblade named Jolan-dar
Alt 7: A Nord warden named Sigurmar Hurlevent (he's Sigurd's younger brother)
Alt 8: An Altmer templar named Oioriel
Alt 9: An Argonian stamina Warden named Danse-avec-les-Rainettes
Alt 10: A Redguard templar named Neemokh af-Corelanya
Alt 11: A Nord stamina sorcerer named Olga Écoute-Vent
Alt 12: A Breton magicka Warden named Ian Sorril
Alt 13: A Dunmer magicka necromancer named Ilmoran Dren
Alt 14: An Orc stamina necromancer named Norgol gro-Borziel
Alt 15: A Nord magicka necromancer named Thorgen Givresang
Alt 16: An Imperial magicka dragonknight named Publius Valeirus Hastifer (Just call him "Valerio" - he's Gaius younger troublemaker of a brother)
Main in NA (For collaborative events): A Breton magicka nightblade named Titouan Sorril (long-lost brother of Erwann and Gilian)2 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭psychotrip wrote: »@moonio I said it before and I'll say it again:It didn't have to be a city literally made of glass. You're setting up a false dichotomy. There's a million miles between that and this generic, bland, grey mess. This is just so far in the opposite direction it's laughable.
Let's just reiterate the main problems I have, because I feel like we're losing the plot:
1. Zenimax chose the most boring interpretation possible (in my opinion).
2. This interpretation is completely inconsistent from everything we've seen in-game so far. How the hell is this the same culture that makes elven and glass armor and weapons? It looks closer to a breton city.
3. They're only giving Summerset one single building style, while Morrowind got three. It seems they ran out of ideas pretty fast.
4. Even though they kept repeating how Altmer obsess over the past and preservation and keeping things the same, the isle is littered with crumbling ruins, even in the middle of their towns. Are ZOS's own words "transcription errors" now?
Here are some examples. Fans, and even current and former developers, have been making artwork based on Summerset since 1998 (when the original descriptions were published). The following includes official concept art (even some from ESO), more recent work by former developers, and pure fan-art that I think captures the heart of Altmer society:
Official artwork on altmer clothing. Note the organic shapes. Sort of like what we eventually got for the dunmer. Elegant and alien: the way elves are supposed to be.
Some relatively recent artwork from one of the old writers. He's also the guy who created the Altmer's lore. It's from a decidedly non-canon story, but this is how he designed Altmer to be.
A petrified forest by the same artist.
Altmer and Sload Ruins
Ancient aldmer ruins? They were the most advanced, "perfect" society in existence. I would've loved to see some of this science-fantasy artistic weirdness scattered around.
Notice how lush and tropical this ESO concept art is. God, I wish I could live here.
These are actually concept art for New Sheoth, but I'd love to see an altmer city take inspiration from it.
I understand that you're more into gritty, realistic fantasy, but many of us got into The Elder Scrolls specifically because it wasn't following that trend. The developers were trying to get away from that stuff when they released the first lore book. It was basically a soft-reboot of the game's lore, moving away from what they considered a more generic fantasy world (as seen in Arena and Daggerfall) and toward something a bit more unique (as seen in Battlespire, Redguard, Morrowind, Shivering Isles, and to a much lesser extent Skyrim). Before this, elves weren't Mer, high elves were more like wood elves (as seen in King Edward), and khajiit were human (no cat forms yet). The Elder Scrolls became what it is today by being creative and unique.
But even gritty, realistic worlds are more colorful and interesting than ESO's Summerset. Look at this city from The Witcher 3. Not only does this exemplify just how typical Summerset is (the buildings look kinda similar, huh?) but this city has something Alinor doesn't: some damn color.
So this goes beyond being grounded vs. being weird. Zenimax just made a drab place, both similar to dozens of other fantasy worlds but somehow even less visually interesting.
There's lot more that you can do with glass than modern towers and blocks. (Not a fan of the Shard myself, though "The Onion", properly fantasied up, would've made an interesting choice for a High Elf building.)To be honest I wouldn't play this game if it looked too fantastical, I play it because it looks kinda real within a historical context..
I guess everyone has their own taste aesthetically and that is what makes art so interesting, I personally think Summerset looks really cool.
Please show an example of how you think it should look, as it I don't really understand what you want.
Where I live every other building is made out of glass and its so boring
I think TelvanniWizard summed it up pretty well with this:
Where is the sense of fantasy indeed...TelvanniWizard wrote: »I´m not expecting full-glass infinite towers and miriads of glowing bridges crossing them (though it would be nice). But I expected something new, unique, elvish, fantastical. I got european architecture. Where is creativity? I expected way, way more from professional designers. [snip]. Come on people, where is your sense of "fantasy"?
Look at the Dunmer architecture, and then tell me where their real world counterparts are.
Well... You can't really do that, since they do not exist. There are elements and design themes that are vaguely familiar, and seem to hint towards varied bits from here and there around the world. There is a distinct Asian feel to them, but not something that you could really place in any particular real world location.
The Elder Scroll Dunmer style is a good example of doing fantasy design right. It's familiar, yet alien. It's unique and evocative, but still believable. It's its own thing, and it is something that you can imagine to exist for real somewhere, in some distant alien world. But not something you recognise or expect to find here on our good old planet Earth.
The same can be said for the Orsimer stuff - it's definitely its own thing. It speaks of the character of the Orcs, and is distinct from the fares of other ES races. It is believable, plausible and not something that really exists in our own world.
I also like the Khajiti style, it's a bit too much Southeast Asian in my mind, but it certainly is different from the rest and fits the land inhabited by Khajits quite well.
All of these are also fairly distinct from fantasy architecture offered in other games. They are their own distinct things.
That is what people are disappointed with here - the Altmer stuff looks real world, Gothic, European, and similar to bunch of other games. An the similarity with the Disney castle style is not helping things either!
As for what I personally wanted - Well, I don't know... Something better I suppose. Am not actually all that picky about it. I mean, I have my own vision of what High Elven buildings should look like, but it's not like I expected them to do anything like what I had in mind. I would've been pretty happy with just about anything, as long as it was not recognisably real world in design.
In fact, if they had somehow managed to scan my brain and create a world from my own visions, then I'd have been even more disappointed than I am with what we got. Partly because then my "vision" would no longer be mine, and partly because I do not want them to sell me my own vision. I want to experience something different from my vision, something new and interesting.
Matching my own ideas has never been the point in any of this. What I look for in games, and fantasy in general, is something different from what my own imagination provides. But even so, I want it to be interesting, unique and to have that sense of fantasy. And copying real life styles and designs is not it.
So I am not gonna provide you with an example of how I imagine High Elven architecture to look like, sInce that is not what I want from this game. I can, however, provide you with a bunch of images, some from the real world and some from the imagination of others, showing what elven buildings could look like.
All you really need to do is google elven architecture or high elven architecture.
So how about this one?
Or this one?
or even this one?
A couple of minutes of clicking landed me on the Deviant art page of SnowSkadi and just on that one gallery alone, there are several cool visions of what "alien" and "unique" Summerset architecture could've looked like.
Like something along these lines...
Or maybe they could've gone for something like this?
Neither is what I have in mind for High Elves, but I'd been perfectly happy with either one. However, of the various visions offered by SnowSkadi, this is by far my personal favourite:
If Summerset had gone with something like that, then I'd be pretty stoked about it.
And on that note, this is much closer to what the throne room in Shimmerene should've looked liked:
The thing is, that people have spent decades on dreaming up how High Elven stuff should look, and there are tons of interesting ideas and design choices available. And on that ground, once again, I cannot emphasize how much of an artistic let down it is to go with the Gothic style they chose. At least they could've spiced it up a bit with some unusual or alien features. But no, it's pretty much lifted whole cloth from the Gothic playbook. The only elven bits are the wooden structures and the various bits of garnish scattered here and there on the buildings. But the general shapes and design elements are Gothic all the way.
There's plenty of "elven" looking stuff in the real world too, no need to limit one's design to Gothic stuff...
Here's a flowing organic ornamental facade:
And an intricate design on a stairwell with flowing lines:
Or how about this as a basis on what High Elf homes should've looked like instead of rough granite block buildings:
In fact, go check the wiki page for Villa Majorelle - that building has tons of ideas you could easily adapt for Altmer culture and design style.
As for real life examples, of "insect wing" design in action, how about these two:
So yeah... Hope that helps to understand what the hubbup is all about.
And finally, once more for the record: I think Summerset looks fine. Based on the videos I've seen, there is lot of nice little details, and the cities are well made. So, yeah, it's okay, I'll play it. But it is not inspiring, it is not unique and it's a real bummer design wise. So much wasted potential. A squandered opportunity to go for something truly memorable. Oh well... Them's the breaks and all that.VerboseQuips wrote: »@Hymzir Nice collection of pictures. I like Gaudi's house too, although I'd have seen it more for Sloadish corallian architecture.
Imagine this, for example, with the pillars made of coral, in the underbelly of Cloudrest:
One might also want to check Luc Schuiten's city concepts:
Maybe a less Altmeri in nature, but I like its integration in the environment.
@moonio So as you can see, there's a near-infinite amount of possibilities for the Altmer. People have been making artwork for them for 20 years: almost as long as I've been alive. There was so much potential for this place to be unique, distinct, interesting, but instead they went with the same schlock we've seen in dozens of other fantasy stories. Even then, they somehow managed to make Summerset even more drab and colorless than the fantasy worlds they're ripping off.
If nothing else, these last few posts have put in stark relief the amount of wasted artistic potential in this expansion.
So I ask: what, at all, makes Summerset unique? What makes the Altmer unique at this point? What do they bring to the table that a million other high elves in a million other medieval European forests don't already have?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 10, 2023 5:47PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.6