Should the Warden be buffed?

Maryal

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.

Stamina classes don't have shields.

Officially, ESO has 5 classes: Warden, Dragonknight, Nightblade, Templar, and Sorc. Each class has 3 skill trees and each skill tree has a mixture of stamina and magica based skills/morphs.

There are no rules that require a player to choose only stamina skills or only magica skills .. we are free to choose whatever combination we want.

We don't have stamina classes, however, what we do have are: a.) stamina based builds; b.) magica based builds; and c.) hybrid builds.

Therefore, your statement that 'stamina classes don't have shields' is not a correct statement in more ways than one.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Lynx7386 wrote: »

For the love of God buff insect swarm. I keep saying that the growing swarm morph should work like a placed hurricane effect:

growing swarm
A cloud of insects plague the area dealing magic damage every second for 15 seconds. Every (3-5) seconds the swarm grows, gaining increased size and damage.

You place it at a target location like winters revenge or ash cloud, and it grows over time dealing aoe damage. That would be a huge buff to pve wardens without really having any effect on PvP.

The other morph for insect swarm should be made into a stamina morph and deal greater single target damage.

I agree. Buff the swarm but make it a ground effect. Those are easily avoidable in PvP and will help PvE DPS.

hedna123b14_ESO

Warden can be a good buff wench)
NMG/Sunder/Veli/24 pts into piercing https://imgur.com/gallery/MUXJ6

hedna123b14_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

Solution:
The Bear!

The Bear pets won't really buff Wardens in PvP, since they are predictable and avoidable, but buffing Bear damage would go a long way to improve Warden PvE DPS.

Bear already does 5.5k dps self buffed...how much more do you want it buffed?

EvilAutoTech

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Solution:
The Bear!

The Bear pets won't really buff Wardens in PvP, since they are predictable and avoidable, but buffing Bear damage would go a long way to improve Warden PvE DPS.

Bear already does 5.5k dps self buffed...how much more do you want it buffed?

If they doubled it, I'd think about un-retiring it. But even then, it would take a long time to choose because the bear takes two ultimate slots.

hedna123b14_ESO

EvilAutoTech wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Solution:
The Bear!

The Bear pets won't really buff Wardens in PvP, since they are predictable and avoidable, but buffing Bear damage would go a long way to improve Warden PvE DPS.

Bear already does 5.5k dps self buffed...how much more do you want it buffed?

If they doubled it, I'd think about un-retiring it. But even then, it would take a long time to choose because the bear takes two ultimate slots.

I don't think buffing the bear is the way to go...I think the issue is that the warden has dps passive that are diiminished in a raid setup, so if not changing them, then boosting them would be the way to go.if all else fails I'll take a stam morph of swarm:)

Maura_Neysa

Maryal wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens
While not my primary or main toon, I have played on my warden a fair amount. The class is clumsy and somewhat irritating when it comes to a sustained damage rotation (pve). That being said, there are some aspects of the Warden that make it OP, even in pve .

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. Also, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation.

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden.


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP.

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself.

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem).

No to everything. Also Leeching Vines and Frost Cloak are buffs, not shields. Few things annoy me more than people who don’t understand basic mechanics and classifications making suggestions on theorycrafting and game design.

Rest assured, I am well aware that, technically speaking, this game classifies a shield as something that either reflects or absorbs damage. If this had been a discussion about the technical mechanics of damage mitigation, I would not have used the term 'shield stacking' in a figurative manner.

The topic of this discussion centered on whether the warden should be buffed (or nerfed), a topic that made it necessary to look at where the warden is over-performing and/or under-performing. In this context, part of my comments focused on wardens stacking: 1.) leeching vines (heals target each time they take damage ... and applies minor life steal), 2.) frost cloak (major resolve and major ward .... plus minor protection IF the ice fortress morph is chosen), and 3.) crystallized shield (absorbs up to 3 projectiles). Stacking all three makes the warden rather impervious to quite a lot of damage.

Keep in mind that each of these three skills accomplishes the same thing ... they each: increase the warden's survivability/make the warden more difficult to kill. Individually, each skill is not OP. The problem is when they are stacked ... stacking 2 is bad enough, but when all 3 are stacked the result is OP. (I haven't even touched on wardens who stack all 3 while also equipping a SnB)

In all fairness, I suppose I could have called this problem skill stacking, but that term does nothing to help the reader understand what the problem is or why it's OP.

So, I chose the term 'shield stacking' ... it was simply a matter of semantics, not technicalities.

What do you think most people (playing this game) would think of when hearing (reading) the words 'shield stacking'
Choose one:

Option A: Most would probably think of mathematical equations or complex formulas that factor in damage mitigated before and after the damage shield takes damage or the interplay between various forms of damage mitigation and champion points.

Option B: Most people would probably think of pvp'ers (usually sorcs) who are extremely difficult, if not impossible to kill because they (usually sorcs) are constantly casting shields on themselves which means they take no damage (or very little damage) no matter how hard or how many times they get hit.

If you chose Option A: If you really enjoy math and are a bit of a "math wiz," you may have chosen this answer. Good for you for having a math brain! Unfortunately, your answer is wrong.

If you chose Option B: If you chose this answer you probably enjoy being social (in-person or on-line) and it's very likely you possess a heightened ability to empathize with others. Hooray, your answer is correct!

I apologize if my choice of semantics 'shield-stacking' gave you cause for discomfort. I assure you, I know quite a lot about this game, much more than I let on. In future posts, I will be sure to clarify when I use the term 'shield-stacking' in a semantical way ... so the reader knows to interpret the term as a figure of speech intended to help illustrate a point.

In comparison....
DK Harden Armor - Major Ward and Resolve AND damage shield, Refective Scales - reflect, Burning Embers - self heal for doing damage
NB Refresing Path - Self Heal AND Major Ward/Resolve, Shiponing Strikes - self heal for doing damage and resources, Mirage - Major Evasion and Minor Ward/Resolve
Templar Restroring Focus - Major Ward/Resolve, Minor Protection, Minor Vitality. Sun Shield - a massive damage shield. Ritual of Retrobution - self heal AND damage. Oh and let’s not forget BoL/HtD - the biggest heals in the game
Sorc the actual Shield Stacking Class

Your totally right, Warden is so broken in shield stacking, even under you unorthodox definition of shield stacking

Maryal

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens
While not my primary or main toon, I have played on my warden a fair amount. The class is clumsy and somewhat irritating when it comes to a sustained damage rotation (pve). That being said, there are some aspects of the Warden that make it OP, even in pve .

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. Also, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation.

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden.


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP.

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself.

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem).

No to everything. Also Leeching Vines and Frost Cloak are buffs, not shields. Few things annoy me more than people who don’t understand basic mechanics and classifications making suggestions on theorycrafting and game design.

Rest assured, I am well aware that, technically speaking, this game classifies a shield as something that either reflects or absorbs damage. If this had been a discussion about the technical mechanics of damage mitigation, I would not have used the term 'shield stacking' in a figurative manner.

The topic of this discussion centered on whether the warden should be buffed (or nerfed), a topic that made it necessary to look at where the warden is over-performing and/or under-performing. In this context, part of my comments focused on wardens stacking: 1.) leeching vines (heals target each time they take damage ... and applies minor life steal), 2.) frost cloak (major resolve and major ward .... plus minor protection IF the ice fortress morph is chosen), and 3.) crystallized shield (absorbs up to 3 projectiles). Stacking all three makes the warden rather impervious to quite a lot of damage.

Keep in mind that each of these three skills accomplishes the same thing ... they each: increase the warden's survivability/make the warden more difficult to kill. Individually, each skill is not OP. The problem is when they are stacked ... stacking 2 is bad enough, but when all 3 are stacked the result is OP. (I haven't even touched on wardens who stack all 3 while also equipping a SnB)

In all fairness, I suppose I could have called this problem skill stacking, but that term does nothing to help the reader understand what the problem is or why it's OP.

So, I chose the term 'shield stacking' ... it was simply a matter of semantics, not technicalities.

What do you think most people (playing this game) would think of when hearing (reading) the words 'shield stacking'
Choose one:

Option A: Most would probably think of mathematical equations or complex formulas that factor in damage mitigated before and after the damage shield takes damage or the interplay between various forms of damage mitigation and champion points.

Option B: Most people would probably think of pvp'ers (usually sorcs) who are extremely difficult, if not impossible to kill because they (usually sorcs) are constantly casting shields on themselves which means they take no damage (or very little damage) no matter how hard or how many times they get hit.

If you chose Option A: If you really enjoy math and are a bit of a "math wiz," you may have chosen this answer. Good for you for having a math brain! Unfortunately, your answer is wrong.

If you chose Option B: If you chose this answer you probably enjoy being social (in-person or on-line) and it's very likely you possess a heightened ability to empathize with others. Hooray, your answer is correct!

I apologize if my choice of semantics 'shield-stacking' gave you cause for discomfort. I assure you, I know quite a lot about this game, much more than I let on. In future posts, I will be sure to clarify when I use the term 'shield-stacking' in a semantical way ... so the reader knows to interpret the term as a figure of speech intended to help illustrate a point.

In comparison....
DK Harden Armor - Major Ward and Resolve AND damage shield, Refective Scales - reflect, Burning Embers - self heal for doing damage
NB Refresing Path - Self Heal AND Major Ward/Resolve, Shiponing Strikes - self heal for doing damage and resources, Mirage - Major Evasion and Minor Ward/Resolve
Templar Restroring Focus - Major Ward/Resolve, Minor Protection, Minor Vitality. Sun Shield - a massive damage shield. Ritual of Retrobution - self heal AND damage. Oh and let’s not forget BoL/HtD - the biggest heals in the game
Sorc the actual Shield Stacking Class

Your totally right, Warden is so broken in shield stacking, even under you unorthodox definition of shield stacking

I don't necessarily disagree with your comparison, but the topic was the warden, not other classes. I made various proposed suggestions in resolving what I saw as problems, do you see any of them as being over-reaching, that is, do they need to be toned down?

Maura_Neysa

Maryal wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens
While not my primary or main toon, I have played on my warden a fair amount. The class is clumsy and somewhat irritating when it comes to a sustained damage rotation (pve). That being said, there are some aspects of the Warden that make it OP, even in pve .

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. Also, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation.

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden.


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP.

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself.

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem).

No to everything. Also Leeching Vines and Frost Cloak are buffs, not shields. Few things annoy me more than people who don’t understand basic mechanics and classifications making suggestions on theorycrafting and game design.

Rest assured, I am well aware that, technically speaking, this game classifies a shield as something that either reflects or absorbs damage. If this had been a discussion about the technical mechanics of damage mitigation, I would not have used the term 'shield stacking' in a figurative manner.

The topic of this discussion centered on whether the warden should be buffed (or nerfed), a topic that made it necessary to look at where the warden is over-performing and/or under-performing. In this context, part of my comments focused on wardens stacking: 1.) leeching vines (heals target each time they take damage ... and applies minor life steal), 2.) frost cloak (major resolve and major ward .... plus minor protection IF the ice fortress morph is chosen), and 3.) crystallized shield (absorbs up to 3 projectiles). Stacking all three makes the warden rather impervious to quite a lot of damage.

Keep in mind that each of these three skills accomplishes the same thing ... they each: increase the warden's survivability/make the warden more difficult to kill. Individually, each skill is not OP. The problem is when they are stacked ... stacking 2 is bad enough, but when all 3 are stacked the result is OP. (I haven't even touched on wardens who stack all 3 while also equipping a SnB)

In all fairness, I suppose I could have called this problem skill stacking, but that term does nothing to help the reader understand what the problem is or why it's OP.

So, I chose the term 'shield stacking' ... it was simply a matter of semantics, not technicalities.

What do you think most people (playing this game) would think of when hearing (reading) the words 'shield stacking'
Choose one:

Option A: Most would probably think of mathematical equations or complex formulas that factor in damage mitigated before and after the damage shield takes damage or the interplay between various forms of damage mitigation and champion points.

Option B: Most people would probably think of pvp'ers (usually sorcs) who are extremely difficult, if not impossible to kill because they (usually sorcs) are constantly casting shields on themselves which means they take no damage (or very little damage) no matter how hard or how many times they get hit.

If you chose Option A: If you really enjoy math and are a bit of a "math wiz," you may have chosen this answer. Good for you for having a math brain! Unfortunately, your answer is wrong.

If you chose Option B: If you chose this answer you probably enjoy being social (in-person or on-line) and it's very likely you possess a heightened ability to empathize with others. Hooray, your answer is correct!

I apologize if my choice of semantics 'shield-stacking' gave you cause for discomfort. I assure you, I know quite a lot about this game, much more than I let on. In future posts, I will be sure to clarify when I use the term 'shield-stacking' in a semantical way ... so the reader knows to interpret the term as a figure of speech intended to help illustrate a point.

In comparison....
DK Harden Armor - Major Ward and Resolve AND damage shield, Refective Scales - reflect, Burning Embers - self heal for doing damage
NB Refresing Path - Self Heal AND Major Ward/Resolve, Shiponing Strikes - self heal for doing damage and resources, Mirage - Major Evasion and Minor Ward/Resolve
Templar Restroring Focus - Major Ward/Resolve, Minor Protection, Minor Vitality. Sun Shield - a massive damage shield. Ritual of Retrobution - self heal AND damage. Oh and let’s not forget BoL/HtD - the biggest heals in the game
Sorc the actual Shield Stacking Class

Your totally right, Warden is so broken in shield stacking, even under you unorthodox definition of shield stacking

I don't necessarily disagree with your comparison, but the topic was the warden, not other classes. I made various proposed suggestions in resolving what I saw as problems, do you see any of them as being over-reaching, that is, do they need to be toned down?

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

- Actually its the only class that gives you every Buff you'd get from Spell/Weapon Power pots. So its actually teaching you something you NEED to know about other classes that isn't clearly visible.
- It also offers a lot of built in healing. So in encourages pure DPS spec, instead of hybrids.
- Dive is Direct Damage, Bees are a purge-able DoT, Winters Reach is an un-purge-able DoT, Shalks are AOE Direct Damage. What damage type is missing?
- I will agree its a more complex rotation, but no wear near as complex as NB

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. This would make it worse. Now instead of a rotation consisting of using this right before a bar swap, you just dont have any uptime on the back barAlso, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation. Thats actually a terriable idea. One of the unquie factors of a Warden is that a Range Stamina build is possable. Since Stamden actually perform extremly well anyway, with 45k parses possable, then they really dont need another stamina skill anyway. Now having this reworked to be a better skill for the Magden would make sense


Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. Already covered how this is no different than any other class The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers. Kodi PvP... Not limited to sewers. Back of the Zerg Bird spamers... cant do that from the Sewers


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden. True enough, but thats something ZoS is actually addressing. Birds are now Dodge-able. Stamden huge burst is legitamite because of the skill, of course fine tuning may be required still. So I wont go further on that one


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself. Actually go for this, I DO NOT want this skill on me. Give it to anyone else so I can have my extra 500 resources. Oh also, only 1 of those 3 things is a shield

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. 8 meters is too small. Let it be the same as BoL or Healing Ward While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem). Thats called a tank, and they have been irritating people since the dawn of the Merethic Era, doesnt matter what class

Better?

Maryal

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardle

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.

JobooAGS

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardle

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.

Have you thought about that stamden was likely intended to be a ranged stam class? So better skills/passives orietned towards that would be in order?

ArcVelarian

Every class but Sorc needs a PvE oriented buff.

Gargath

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Warden DPS also has poor sustain compared to other classes.

But warden's damage shield is awesome instead.
Here on lvl30 with max CP healer, julianos+necropotence, for the cost of 2,4k magicka has 40k shield usually giving back 1,7k magicka .

WrathOfInnos

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Every class but Sorc needs a PvE oriented buff.

mNightblade beats mSorc by a significant margin right now. Neither really need major changes.

Warden needs to be brought more in line with both of these other ranged Magicka classes.

Anti_Virus

Magden needs a rework that class overwhelmingly is beneficial for stam but even that needs a rework since the stam version seems to be built for ranged stam playstyle one that isn't viable atm.

Panomania

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

POps75p

they are the worst of the worst class in PVE, which i would have never started one, i just quit playing it, and it's maxed out 720, even if it had 3000 CP it would be useless

Panomania

I can only disagree. LOVE my warden tank, plays so much better for me than my DK tank. And my warden healer is a lot of fun to play...in some ways more effective than my temp healer.

Maura_Neysa

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

my resource regen has been fine, I do not have any issues even with weapon damage glyphs and in WM and Hundings/NMG

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Wardens have two spambales, yes this is different from any other class. It’s Sub and Dive. I’ve found, specifically because of the Warden tank, that the biggest problem the Warden has is the people keep trying to apply other builds to it. They are different the closest thing would be NB but even then Wardens are less squish because they can’t just ghost. They do however have the same AoE DoTs every other stamina class has, Caltrops, Endless, and personally I run Acid too. The ones I’m missing? Blade Cloak so still have access to it.

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

I do picture this, and I do actually see it. What I see; Sub, Caltrops, Endless, Sub pops, 80% of trash die (vet; Sub again finish the rotation, and 80% dead) If we are talking solo situation, Shimmering means please more archers, yes feed me that Ulti

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.
Kiting, age old glourious past time off laughing at the melee DPS while the hopelessly die while doing no damage. Actually makes Sub all the more useful over Caltrops, and Endless. By the way, if you need you can absolutly waste Time HA.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).
So stand in melee with your bow. No idea why you have trouble with this weave. While weaving Dive you’re pretty tanky because you have full heals going while wasting no resources on Vigor

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.
2 things. Sufficient because it’s in the field of the others. It can not and will not be on top, or ZoS will get accused of P2W. Considering, that Wardens like NB get there survivablity from being on the offensive, get better resource management from being on the offensive, in a group, then actually Wardens struggle more as Target Dummy Warriors than other classes. Doing damage heals me, thanks to Dragon Bones everyone now sees why Dodge Roll is worthless, just run out. Easy to do with Major Expidetion, also means your not wasting resources on Sprint either.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?
[/color=maroon] I don’t run recovery glyphs on either, sustain is not an issue at all even with 2 high cost spamables. What ever your recovery is, plus another 500 from Netch and Nature’s Gift. [/color]

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.
[/color=maroon] That is not an option, Frost on par with Inferno/Lighting would be OP with its CC. Only MagWarden needs a buff, and it needs to come from a DoT. Revenge or Fletcher. Then it’s low key in PvP because Fletcher is Purgable and Revenge you can move out of. Or of course a major overhaul to something else is another option. [/color]

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).
Again, they have the same AoE DoTs as every other Stamina build, and the same melee capability of every other build, and on top of that, you don’t have to play a melee Stam build, something completely unique to any other class. 2x Bow is possible on a Warden

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.
You’re trying to call Sub weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming. Because that’s it, Warden PvP strength is Sub and Shimmering, high defense and high offense all without needing to go on the defensive (a common theme in my counter argument)

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.
In the interest of staying on topic, all I’ll say is yes, you win the measuring contest. Men O_o

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.
Umm I run zero shields, earned all my skins tanking, and let’s not forget, your definition of Shield Stacking doesn’t match anyone else’s. More to the point, my diffintion does NOT include your Leeching/Ice Fortress/Shimmering build. In PvP only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up. For me that’s indefinitely. Thats what makes you a tank. Now if you can’t also crowd control and debuff then you are a useless tank. If however you can do both, then you can stand in a keeps fallen door/wall and hold back an angry mob for hours. Some of my most fun Cyrodill days have been multi-hour keep sieges with a good group at my back keeping the heals coming and the ground around me a no-mans land, while I keep the time to cross it to high.

I see the same thing I usually do, the attempted application of another Classes build onto the Warden. It doesn’t work. Warden tank is not a DK, Warden Healer is not a Templar, Warden DPS is not any other DPS either. Time to theory craft from the ground up. In the mean time though, the old Stamina DPS bow, DW build is still pretty effective on the Warden. Much more so than Mag Lighting/Inferno

Asardes

@Maryal

And I thought it was my problem sustaining the standard Warden rotation on my character, even with VO and Dubious Camoran Throne and weaving heavy attack with almost every skill on front bar. I'm literally gasping for resources at the end of the 6M and I barely break 28K. I've gotten "dry parses" (without food or potions) on my DK just to improve my back bar weaving and they ended up at about the same. And I can sustain just fine on DK even without VO and Camoran, or even using potions. Also Noxious Breath has only ~65% up time because it lasts only 8s out of about 12s, compared to Subterranean Assault that lasts 10s and it's cast 2x per rotation, so you can easily get 100% up time on Major Fracture. So the difference opens up even more if someone applies Major Fracture for you.

My rotation is Rearming Trap -> LA -> Poison Injection -> LA -> Endless Hail -> LA -> Razor Caltrops -> bar swap -> Subterranean Assault -> HA -> Rending Slashes -> HA -> Cutting Dive -> HA -> Subterranean Assault -> LA -> Deadly Cloak -> Bar Swap, and I hit Bull Netch and Green Lotus ever 2nd rotation to keep them up all the time.

MLGProPlayer

Panomania wrote: »

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

Their survivability is junk since there is no room for survival skills in their rotation. Warden doesn't have any offensive survival skills (like Rune Focus or Ritual of Retribution, for example).

MLGProPlayer

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

my resource regen has been fine, I do not have any issues even with weapon damage glyphs and in WM and Hundings/NMG

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Wardens have two spambales, yes this is different from any other class. It’s Sub and Dive. I’ve found, specifically because of the Warden tank, that the biggest problem the Warden has is the people keep trying to apply other builds to it. They are different the closest thing would be NB but even then Wardens are less squish because they can’t just ghost. They do however have the same AoE DoTs every other stamina class has, Caltrops, Endless, and personally I run Acid too. The ones I’m missing? Blade Cloak so still have access to it.

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

I do picture this, and I do actually see it. What I see; Sub, Caltrops, Endless, Sub pops, 80% of trash die (vet; Sub again finish the rotation, and 80% dead) If we are talking solo situation, Shimmering means please more archers, yes feed me that Ulti

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.
Kiting, age old glourious past time off laughing at the melee DPS while the hopelessly die while doing no damage. Actually makes Sub all the more useful over Caltrops, and Endless. By the way, if you need you can absolutly waste Time HA.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).
So stand in melee with your bow. No idea why you have trouble with this weave. While weaving Dive you’re pretty tanky because you have full heals going while wasting no resources on Vigor

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.
2 things. Sufficient because it’s in the field of the others. It can not and will not be on top, or ZoS will get accused of P2W. Considering, that Wardens like NB get there survivablity from being on the offensive, get better resource management from being on the offensive, in a group, then actually Wardens struggle more as Target Dummy Warriors than other classes. Doing damage heals me, thanks to Dragon Bones everyone now sees why Dodge Roll is worthless, just run out. Easy to do with Major Expidetion, also means your not wasting resources on Sprint either.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?
[/color=maroon] I don’t run recovery glyphs on either, sustain is not an issue at all even with 2 high cost spamables. What ever your recovery is, plus another 500 from Netch and Nature’s Gift. [/color]

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.
[/color=maroon] That is not an option, Frost on par with Inferno/Lighting would be OP with its CC. Only MagWarden needs a buff, and it needs to come from a DoT. Revenge or Fletcher. Then it’s low key in PvP because Fletcher is Purgable and Revenge you can move out of. Or of course a major overhaul to something else is another option. [/color]

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).
Again, they have the same AoE DoTs as every other Stamina build, and the same melee capability of every other build, and on top of that, you don’t have to play a melee Stam build, something completely unique to any other class. 2x Bow is possible on a Warden

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.
You’re trying to call Sub weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming. Because that’s it, Warden PvP strength is Sub and Shimmering, high defense and high offense all without needing to go on the defensive (a common theme in my counter argument)

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.
In the interest of staying on topic, all I’ll say is yes, you win the measuring contest. Men O_o

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.
Umm I run zero shields, earned all my skins tanking, and let’s not forget, your definition of Shield Stacking doesn’t match anyone else’s. More to the point, my diffintion does NOT include your Leeching/Ice Fortress/Shimmering build. In PvP only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up. For me that’s indefinitely. Thats what makes you a tank. Now if you can’t also crowd control and debuff then you are a useless tank. If however you can do both, then you can stand in a keeps fallen door/wall and hold back an angry mob for hours. Some of my most fun Cyrodill days have been multi-hour keep sieges with a good group at my back keeping the heals coming and the ground around me a no-mans land, while I keep the time to cross it to high.

I see the same thing I usually do, the attempted application of another Classes build onto the Warden. It doesn’t work. Warden tank is not a DK, Warden Healer is not a Templar, Warden DPS is not any other DPS either. Time to theory craft from the ground up. In the mean time though, the old Stamina DPS bow, DW build is still pretty effective on the Warden. Much more so than Mag Lighting/Inferno

All warden builds were theory crafted from the ground up. How can you even apply another class' build to the warden if each class has unique skills?

The truth is that warden DPS sucks and needs to be buffed. This was acknowledged by Wrobel already on the PTS forum and is being addressed in the next balance patch.

Iselin

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Panomania wrote: »

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

Their survivability is junk since there is no room for survival skills in their rotation. Warden doesn't have any offensive survival skills (like Rune Focus or Ritual of Retribution, for example).

Lol. Anything but junk. If you use some version of Lotus Flower (as you should for weapon or spell crit) every LA or HA heals you. And Bond With Nature mean every bird or shalk and even the netch heals you (when it expires.) You're getting a constant barrage of self heals. And then of course there's Ice Fortress...

SSlarg

Knowledge wrote: »

It seems as though the Warden gets shafted in all forms of PVE at the highest levels by other classes. Sure, it shines somewhat in PVP and is arguably one of the better classes for that game type. Nonetheless, shouldn't it get a little love in PVE? It pales in comparison to other magicka classes and especially to other stamina classes in terms of output.

That being said I am simply wondering where the community stands on nerfing or buffing the Warden. I am by no means saying it needs to be better than the rest but at least a little bit more competitive.

Yes and YES because the warden is far too weak.

Maura_Neysa

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

my resource regen has been fine, I do not have any issues even with weapon damage glyphs and in WM and Hundings/NMG

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Wardens have two spambales, yes this is different from any other class. It’s Sub and Dive. I’ve found, specifically because of the Warden tank, that the biggest problem the Warden has is the people keep trying to apply other builds to it. They are different the closest thing would be NB but even then Wardens are less squish because they can’t just ghost. They do however have the same AoE DoTs every other stamina class has, Caltrops, Endless, and personally I run Acid too. The ones I’m missing? Blade Cloak so still have access to it.

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

I do picture this, and I do actually see it. What I see; Sub, Caltrops, Endless, Sub pops, 80% of trash die (vet; Sub again finish the rotation, and 80% dead) If we are talking solo situation, Shimmering means please more archers, yes feed me that Ulti

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.
Kiting, age old glourious past time off laughing at the melee DPS while the hopelessly die while doing no damage. Actually makes Sub all the more useful over Caltrops, and Endless. By the way, if you need you can absolutly waste Time HA.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).
So stand in melee with your bow. No idea why you have trouble with this weave. While weaving Dive you’re pretty tanky because you have full heals going while wasting no resources on Vigor

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.
2 things. Sufficient because it’s in the field of the others. It can not and will not be on top, or ZoS will get accused of P2W. Considering, that Wardens like NB get there survivablity from being on the offensive, get better resource management from being on the offensive, in a group, then actually Wardens struggle more as Target Dummy Warriors than other classes. Doing damage heals me, thanks to Dragon Bones everyone now sees why Dodge Roll is worthless, just run out. Easy to do with Major Expidetion, also means your not wasting resources on Sprint either.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?
[/color=maroon] I don’t run recovery glyphs on either, sustain is not an issue at all even with 2 high cost spamables. What ever your recovery is, plus another 500 from Netch and Nature’s Gift. [/color]

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.
[/color=maroon] That is not an option, Frost on par with Inferno/Lighting would be OP with its CC. Only MagWarden needs a buff, and it needs to come from a DoT. Revenge or Fletcher. Then it’s low key in PvP because Fletcher is Purgable and Revenge you can move out of. Or of course a major overhaul to something else is another option. [/color]

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).
Again, they have the same AoE DoTs as every other Stamina build, and the same melee capability of every other build, and on top of that, you don’t have to play a melee Stam build, something completely unique to any other class. 2x Bow is possible on a Warden

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.
You’re trying to call Sub weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming. Because that’s it, Warden PvP strength is Sub and Shimmering, high defense and high offense all without needing to go on the defensive (a common theme in my counter argument)

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.
In the interest of staying on topic, all I’ll say is yes, you win the measuring contest. Men O_o

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.
Umm I run zero shields, earned all my skins tanking, and let’s not forget, your definition of Shield Stacking doesn’t match anyone else’s. More to the point, my diffintion does NOT include your Leeching/Ice Fortress/Shimmering build. In PvP only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up. For me that’s indefinitely. Thats what makes you a tank. Now if you can’t also crowd control and debuff then you are a useless tank. If however you can do both, then you can stand in a keeps fallen door/wall and hold back an angry mob for hours. Some of my most fun Cyrodill days have been multi-hour keep sieges with a good group at my back keeping the heals coming and the ground around me a no-mans land, while I keep the time to cross it to high.

I see the same thing I usually do, the attempted application of another Classes build onto the Warden. It doesn’t work. Warden tank is not a DK, Warden Healer is not a Templar, Warden DPS is not any other DPS either. Time to theory craft from the ground up. In the mean time though, the old Stamina DPS bow, DW build is still pretty effective on the Warden. Much more so than Mag Lighting/Inferno

All warden builds were theory crafted from the ground up. How can you even apply another class' build to the warden if each class has unique skills?

The truth is that warden DPS sucks and needs to be buffed. This was acknowledged by Wrobel already on the PTS forum and is being addressed in the next balance patch.

I’m not saying they don’t need a buff. Particularly in PvE. However I can say they aren’t crafted from the ground up when people choose to waste resources getting something the Warden already has. Now not every case is the same, but Wardens already get Minor Maim (and Major) which means half of Heroic Slash is useless on a tank. It took Woelers 3 months to figure out Warden Tanks need to run Leeching. On the surface it’s not such a great skill (decent, but...), but it’s one of 2 options for Nature’s Gift for maximum up time.
How many builds have you seen showing potions as Weapin/Spell Power pots? Stamden gives themselves EVERYTHING from that potion, Major Burtality, Major Savagry, Major Endurance. Magden gives themselves 2 out of 3.
What exactly is the reason for a Stamden to DW? Blade Cloak, they have range so can avoid the AoE, Shrouded Dagger? They already have a heavy hitting AoE and give themselves Major Brutality. Most I can see is because if you want range you need Lightweight Beast Trap, which makes it a once a rotation skill instead of every other.
How many people refuse to run Frost Staff, yet because of the Warden passive it hits as hard as the others. Just have to be careful with that HA if you take Tri Focus. (Frost Blockade ticks for 150 more than Lighting, even with Tri Focus. 6% bonus to Magic and Frost Damage.) it was one thing with high a Off Balance uptimes and exploiter, 6% isn’t 10%

Are there similarities? Yes, still really only one good way to get Minor Force. Still people just port over what they know, and few actually built from the ground up.

I do think they need a buff, but I also think it has to be done right because they are already strong in PvP. People already cry for nerf on6 different skills. That isn’t counting Dive and Forest which already got hit.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Panomania wrote: »

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

Their survivability is junk since there is no room for survival skills in their rotation. Warden doesn't have any offensive survival skills (like Rune Focus or Ritual of Retribution, for example).

Survival is junk?!? Their 2 main DPS skills heal themselves. If your in trouble drop the rotation and Dive spam! More survivable then Stamplar, StamDK and both NB. (Stamplar has good survival as long as bodies drop, not otherwise though.

Maryal

@Maura_Neysa

I'm glad you do so well with your warden tank. I, however, am not interested in tanking, my warden is a stamden dps and the focus of my post was the need to have a meaningful, sustained rotation for the dps stamden doing more difficult pve content. Yes, a bird/bow weave is possible but it produces sub-optimal results.

I never said the shalks were "weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming" ... I never said anything remotely similar to that. I don't appreciate my words being twisted like that. My comment about wardens being OP in pvp never had anything to do with the birds or the shalks.

I'm glad you gave us your definition of a good tank: "only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up." What you said speaks more about your level of knowledge regarding this game than you could possibly know.

There are many other things I disagree with you about regarding your comments to my previous post, but I feel that anything I have to say will only fall on 'deaf ears' so there is no point in making further comments to you.

Maura_Neysa

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

I'm glad you do so well with your warden tank. I, however, am not interested in tanking, my warden is a stamden dps and the focus of my post was the need to have a meaningful, sustained rotation for the dps stamden doing more difficult pve content. Yes, a bird/bow weave is possible but it produces sub-optimal results. did vHRC tonight on my Bowden. Actually had great survivablity. DPS isn’t my strong suit, but I do continue to have the highest parse on my Bowden

I never said the shalks were "weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming" ... I never said anything remotely similar to that. I don't appreciate my words being twisted like that. My comment about wardens being OP in pvp never had anything to do with the birds or the shalks. your exact quote

Maryal wrote: »

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.

If that isn’t you calling them weak and/or ineffective, then my apologies. Sure seems like that’s exactly what you meant

Your statement: "only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up." speaks volumes about the level of knowledge you have about this game. How so? Because Tanking is most definitely what I understand best. It’s the only role in which I’ve achieved Leader Board status on.

There are many other things I disagree with you about regarding your comments to my previous post, but I feel that anything I have to say will only fall on 'deaf ears' so there is no point in commenting further.
They will of course fall on deaf ears if you don’t actually say them. I have taken the time to address your arguments point by point. And with regards to points that don’t have my comments after them, it’s either because I agree, I don’t know for myself, or I don’t have any evidence to counter with. I play all 3 roles with my 3 Wardens, I do not know only one so when discussing the Warden I use all three. Some skills, like the Netch are always good, other skills like Dive, or Gate are great skills in one role and useless in others. This Tread topic is “Should the Warden be Buffed” well yes an no. Do Warden Tanks need buffed? Not really. Do Stamden need buffed? Maybe a little, Do Magdens need buff? OMG yes, they are in last place by 5-10k DPS. I have argued where you seem to say that a skill needs buffed, when it’s already one of the Wardens strongest skills. I want the right skills buffed so that Wardens are compedative and not slapped with the Nerf Hammer again. Aka Dive, while there is nearly as much QQing about Sub.

method__01

pre-ordered Morrowind last February iirc was very excited about magwarden class and it performed very well during last summer...after 7 months no1 use them at pve/pvp except newbies who start new toon, class nerfed to ground and now i use mine as mules and crafting writs toons
disappointment

xbobx

all i want is warden to have an ice spammable.

Ok i want more , but that is nice.

I find my wardens survivability is much greater than all my other jobs. So i lose a bit of damage but I found in vet dungeons those buffs and heals can really make or break the success of the run.

Maura_Neysa

method__01 wrote: »

pre-ordered Morrowind last February iirc was very excited about magwarden class and it performed very well during last summer...after 7 months no1 use them at pve/pvp except newbies who start new toon, class nerfed to ground and now i use mine as mules and crafting writs toons
disappointment

Umm, I only play Wardens now, getting the Warden body count quest in Cyrodiil isn’t any harder than the others anymore. Do they still need work, yes. Are they completely playable? Hell yes. 2nd BiS Tank, and 2nd BiS Healer. There have only been 2 Nerfs, Forest Ulti which honestly, yeah and Dive is now dodgable. However Deceptive Predator, Nature’s Grasp, Frozen Gate, the Bear, have all been buffed. So I’d hardly say they got nerfed into the ground.

Now if you don’t like the class, that’s another story...