MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.

Stamina classes don't have shields.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Solution:
The Bear!

The Bear pets won't really buff Wardens in PvP, since they are predictable and avoidable, but buffing Bear damage would go a long way to improve Warden PvE DPS.

Bear already does 5.5k dps self buffed...how much more do you want it buffed?

Maryal wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens
While not my primary or main toon, I have played on my warden a fair amount. The class is clumsy and somewhat irritating when it comes to a sustained damage rotation (pve). That being said, there are some aspects of the Warden that make it OP, even in pve .

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. Also, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation.

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden.


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP.

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself.

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem).

No to everything. Also Leeching Vines and Frost Cloak are buffs, not shields. Few things annoy me more than people who don’t understand basic mechanics and classifications making suggestions on theorycrafting and game design.

Rest assured, I am well aware that, technically speaking, this game classifies a shield as something that either reflects or absorbs damage. If this had been a discussion about the technical mechanics of damage mitigation, I would not have used the term 'shield stacking' in a figurative manner.

The topic of this discussion centered on whether the warden should be buffed (or nerfed), a topic that made it necessary to look at where the warden is over-performing and/or under-performing. In this context, part of my comments focused on wardens stacking: 1.) leeching vines (heals target each time they take damage ... and applies minor life steal), 2.) frost cloak (major resolve and major ward .... plus minor protection IF the ice fortress morph is chosen), and 3.) crystallized shield (absorbs up to 3 projectiles). Stacking all three makes the warden rather impervious to quite a lot of damage.

Keep in mind that each of these three skills accomplishes the same thing ... they each: increase the warden's survivability/make the warden more difficult to kill. Individually, each skill is not OP. The problem is when they are stacked ... stacking 2 is bad enough, but when all 3 are stacked the result is OP. (I haven't even touched on wardens who stack all 3 while also equipping a SnB)

In all fairness, I suppose I could have called this problem skill stacking, but that term does nothing to help the reader understand what the problem is or why it's OP.

So, I chose the term 'shield stacking' ... it was simply a matter of semantics, not technicalities.

What do you think most people (playing this game) would think of when hearing (reading) the words 'shield stacking'
Choose one:

Option A: Most would probably think of mathematical equations or complex formulas that factor in damage mitigated before and after the damage shield takes damage or the interplay between various forms of damage mitigation and champion points.

Option B: Most people would probably think of pvp'ers (usually sorcs) who are extremely difficult, if not impossible to kill because they (usually sorcs) are constantly casting shields on themselves which means they take no damage (or very little damage) no matter how hard or how many times they get hit.

If you chose Option A: If you really enjoy math and are a bit of a "math wiz," you may have chosen this answer. Good for you for having a math brain! Unfortunately, your answer is wrong.

If you chose Option B: If you chose this answer you probably enjoy being social (in-person or on-line) and it's very likely you possess a heightened ability to empathize with others. Hooray, your answer is correct!

I apologize if my choice of semantics 'shield-stacking' gave you cause for discomfort. I assure you, I know quite a lot about this game, much more than I let on. In future posts, I will be sure to clarify when I use the term 'shield-stacking' in a semantical way ... so the reader knows to interpret the term as a figure of speech intended to help illustrate a point.

Maryal wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens
While not my primary or main toon, I have played on my warden a fair amount. The class is clumsy and somewhat irritating when it comes to a sustained damage rotation (pve). That being said, there are some aspects of the Warden that make it OP, even in pve .

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. Also, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation.

Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers.


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden.


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP.

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself.

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem).

No to everything. Also Leeching Vines and Frost Cloak are buffs, not shields. Few things annoy me more than people who don’t understand basic mechanics and classifications making suggestions on theorycrafting and game design.

Rest assured, I am well aware that, technically speaking, this game classifies a shield as something that either reflects or absorbs damage. If this had been a discussion about the technical mechanics of damage mitigation, I would not have used the term 'shield stacking' in a figurative manner.

The topic of this discussion centered on whether the warden should be buffed (or nerfed), a topic that made it necessary to look at where the warden is over-performing and/or under-performing. In this context, part of my comments focused on wardens stacking: 1.) leeching vines (heals target each time they take damage ... and applies minor life steal), 2.) frost cloak (major resolve and major ward .... plus minor protection IF the ice fortress morph is chosen), and 3.) crystallized shield (absorbs up to 3 projectiles). Stacking all three makes the warden rather impervious to quite a lot of damage.

Keep in mind that each of these three skills accomplishes the same thing ... they each: increase the warden's survivability/make the warden more difficult to kill. Individually, each skill is not OP. The problem is when they are stacked ... stacking 2 is bad enough, but when all 3 are stacked the result is OP. (I haven't even touched on wardens who stack all 3 while also equipping a SnB)

In all fairness, I suppose I could have called this problem skill stacking, but that term does nothing to help the reader understand what the problem is or why it's OP.

So, I chose the term 'shield stacking' ... it was simply a matter of semantics, not technicalities.

What do you think most people (playing this game) would think of when hearing (reading) the words 'shield stacking'
Choose one:

Option A: Most would probably think of mathematical equations or complex formulas that factor in damage mitigated before and after the damage shield takes damage or the interplay between various forms of damage mitigation and champion points.

Option B: Most people would probably think of pvp'ers (usually sorcs) who are extremely difficult, if not impossible to kill because they (usually sorcs) are constantly casting shields on themselves which means they take no damage (or very little damage) no matter how hard or how many times they get hit.

If you chose Option A: If you really enjoy math and are a bit of a "math wiz," you may have chosen this answer. Good for you for having a math brain! Unfortunately, your answer is wrong.

If you chose Option B: If you chose this answer you probably enjoy being social (in-person or on-line) and it's very likely you possess a heightened ability to empathize with others. Hooray, your answer is correct!

I apologize if my choice of semantics 'shield-stacking' gave you cause for discomfort. I assure you, I know quite a lot about this game, much more than I let on. In future posts, I will be sure to clarify when I use the term 'shield-stacking' in a semantical way ... so the reader knows to interpret the term as a figure of speech intended to help illustrate a point.

In comparison....
DK Harden Armor - Major Ward and Resolve AND damage shield, Refective Scales - reflect, Burning Embers - self heal for doing damage
NB Refresing Path - Self Heal AND Major Ward/Resolve, Shiponing Strikes - self heal for doing damage and resources, Mirage - Major Evasion and Minor Ward/Resolve
Templar Restroring Focus - Major Ward/Resolve, Minor Protection, Minor Vitality. Sun Shield - a massive damage shield. Ritual of Retrobution - self heal AND damage. Oh and let’s not forget BoL/HtD - the biggest heals in the game
Sorc the actual Shield Stacking Class

Your totally right, Warden is so broken in shield stacking, even under you unorthodox definition of shield stacking

I don't necessarily disagree with your comparison, but the topic was the warden, not other classes. I made various proposed suggestions in resolving what I saw as problems, do you see any of them as being over-reaching, that is, do they need to be toned down?

Maryal wrote: »

Stamina Wardens

Warden in PVE
What I have come to realize is that the warden is the only class in the game that comes with a set of built-in training wheels, making it a great choice for many new players. The problem with training wheels is that the longer you use them, the more dependent on them you become. One of the bigger problems for newer players playing the warden, is that the class is not set up to teach or encourage newer players to 'stand on their own two feet' in a dps role. It doesn't offer skills/passives that newer players can use to learn meaningful (direct damage) melee combat skills, nor does it offer the skills/passives needed for meaningful AOE combat. Let's face it, you are kinda gimped when it comes to a pve-dps rotation when your main damage skills consist of a bird, a bear, and a few under-ground shalks.

- Actually its the only class that gives you every Buff you'd get from Spell/Weapon Power pots. So its actually teaching you something you NEED to know about other classes that isn't clearly visible.
- It also offers a lot of built in healing. So in encourages pure DPS spec, instead of hybrids.
- Dive is Direct Damage, Bees are a purge-able DoT, Winters Reach is an un-purge-able DoT, Shalks are AOE Direct Damage. What damage type is missing?
- I will agree its a more complex rotation, but no wear near as complex as NB

Suggestion: Change the shalks from a 3-second delay to a 1-second delay as well as reducing damage done 'per cast' to compensate for the increased uptime. This would make it worse. Now instead of a rotation consisting of using this right before a bar swap, you just dont have any uptime on the back barAlso, get rid of the flying mosquitos and replace that skill with an effective melee damage skill ... one that is reasonable to use in a pve-dps rotation. Thats actually a terriable idea. One of the unquie factors of a Warden is that a Range Stamina build is possable. Since Stamden actually perform extremly well anyway, with 45k parses possable, then they really dont need another stamina skill anyway. Now having this reworked to be a better skill for the Magden would make sense


Stamina warden OP in vanilla pve content - it's too easy to keep up multiples shields while blocking and at the same time inflicting some rather hefty burst damage. Already covered how this is no different than any other class The warden's skill line encourages this type of play style ... people simply end up doing the best they can with what they have. Unfortunately, this type of play style doesn't lend itself to the more difficult pve content ESO has to offer. So what happens then? Anger, frustration, issues when trying to group? Wardens deserve their 'place in the game' to be somewhere other than the Imperial City sewers. Kodi PvP... Not limited to sewers. Back of the Zerg Bird spamers... cant do that from the Sewers


Warden in PVP
Then there were the players who understood many of the game mechanics before playing a warden. Putting the warden in their hands was like putting the key to the candy store in the hands of a kid. The way they used the warden wasn't just OP ... it was more like 'OP on steroids'. Once that warden OP-PVP-Zerg train started, there was no turning back. Even relatively under-experienced pvp'ers are now being taught how to achieve OP results with the warden. True enough, but thats something ZoS is actually addressing. Birds are now Dodge-able. Stamden huge burst is legitamite because of the skill, of course fine tuning may be required still. So I wont go further on that one


Suggestion: Change corrupting pollen from inflicting major defile to inflicting minor defile AND get rid of the healing component of that morph. The player needs to make a choice ... they either choose the morph that heals the player/allies OR they choose the morph that de-buffs enemies. The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Sorcs aren't the only shield stackers ... the warden class can do that too (leaching vines + frost cloak + crystallized shield). Yea, yea, leaching vines ... lowest health ally in front of you. The problem is the 'in front of you' part - it is too easy to get around that when you want the vines to apply to yourself. Actually go for this, I DO NOT want this skill on me. Give it to anyone else so I can have my extra 500 resources. Oh also, only 1 of those 3 things is a shield

Suggestion: Get rid of the 'in front of you' language. Have leaching vines be cast on the lowest health ally within 8 meters of the player. 8 meters is too small. Let it be the same as BoL or Healing Ward While this suggestion won't stop shield stacking, it should make it more difficult for wardens to stack all 3 shields. (note: the problem isn't a stray warden who has wondered away from their group ... it's the shield-stacking wardens who are with their group doing their non-stop healing/debuffing that is more of a problem). Thats called a tank, and they have been irritating people since the dawn of the Merethic Era, doesnt matter what class

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardle

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Warden DPS also has poor sustain compared to other classes.

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

my resource regen has been fine, I do not have any issues even with weapon damage glyphs and in WM and Hundings/NMG

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Wardens have two spambales, yes this is different from any other class. It’s Sub and Dive. I’ve found, specifically because of the Warden tank, that the biggest problem the Warden has is the people keep trying to apply other builds to it. They are different the closest thing would be NB but even then Wardens are less squish because they can’t just ghost. They do however have the same AoE DoTs every other stamina class has, Caltrops, Endless, and personally I run Acid too. The ones I’m missing? Blade Cloak so still have access to it.

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

I do picture this, and I do actually see it. What I see; Sub, Caltrops, Endless, Sub pops, 80% of trash die (vet; Sub again finish the rotation, and 80% dead) If we are talking solo situation, Shimmering means please more archers, yes feed me that Ulti

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.
Kiting, age old glourious past time off laughing at the melee DPS while the hopelessly die while doing no damage. Actually makes Sub all the more useful over Caltrops, and Endless. By the way, if you need you can absolutly waste Time HA.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).
So stand in melee with your bow. No idea why you have trouble with this weave. While weaving Dive you’re pretty tanky because you have full heals going while wasting no resources on Vigor

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.
2 things. Sufficient because it’s in the field of the others. It can not and will not be on top, or ZoS will get accused of P2W. Considering, that Wardens like NB get there survivablity from being on the offensive, get better resource management from being on the offensive, in a group, then actually Wardens struggle more as Target Dummy Warriors than other classes. Doing damage heals me, thanks to Dragon Bones everyone now sees why Dodge Roll is worthless, just run out. Easy to do with Major Expidetion, also means your not wasting resources on Sprint either.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?
[/color=maroon] I don’t run recovery glyphs on either, sustain is not an issue at all even with 2 high cost spamables. What ever your recovery is, plus another 500 from Netch and Nature’s Gift. [/color]

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.
[/color=maroon] That is not an option, Frost on par with Inferno/Lighting would be OP with its CC. Only MagWarden needs a buff, and it needs to come from a DoT. Revenge or Fletcher. Then it’s low key in PvP because Fletcher is Purgable and Revenge you can move out of. Or of course a major overhaul to something else is another option. [/color]

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).
Again, they have the same AoE DoTs as every other Stamina build, and the same melee capability of every other build, and on top of that, you don’t have to play a melee Stam build, something completely unique to any other class. 2x Bow is possible on a Warden

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.
You’re trying to call Sub weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming. Because that’s it, Warden PvP strength is Sub and Shimmering, high defense and high offense all without needing to go on the defensive (a common theme in my counter argument)

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.
In the interest of staying on topic, all I’ll say is yes, you win the measuring contest. Men O_o

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.
Umm I run zero shields, earned all my skins tanking, and let’s not forget, your definition of Shield Stacking doesn’t match anyone else’s. More to the point, my diffintion does NOT include your Leeching/Ice Fortress/Shimmering build. In PvP only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up. For me that’s indefinitely. Thats what makes you a tank. Now if you can’t also crowd control and debuff then you are a useless tank. If however you can do both, then you can stand in a keeps fallen door/wall and hold back an angry mob for hours. Some of my most fun Cyrodill days have been multi-hour keep sieges with a good group at my back keeping the heals coming and the ground around me a no-mans land, while I keep the time to cross it to high.

Panomania wrote: »

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Panomania wrote: »

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

Their survivability is junk since there is no room for survival skills in their rotation. Warden doesn't have any offensive survival skills (like Rune Focus or Ritual of Retribution, for example).

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Maura_Neysa wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

The warden skills are such that you can't make a decent sustained stamina dps rotation .. whether it be a direct damage rotation or an AOE/DOT rotation (or combination of the two) ... the skills are too clunky, you loose too much time, and cost too much in resources.

my resource regen has been fine, I do not have any issues even with weapon damage glyphs and in WM and Hundings/NMG

The closest I got to a sort-of-sustained stamina rotation was to not use any of the warden dps skills ... and that kinda defeats the purpose. Try soloing the Vaults of Madness, on a stamden (sigh). I can solo the thing just fine on my stamblade, in fact, I can solo almost all the dungeons on my stamblade (DW/Bow). I do this because it's fun, and also because it's a good way for me to test and fine tune my rotation. If a dps can't solo these dungeons, I don't see how they expect to participate as a dps in the really difficult content this game has to offer. And, I'm not talking about the top 1%-2% .. I'm talking about the rest of us.

You mentioned that wardens have an AOE/DOT ... but what wardens don't have is a spammable, stamina based, AOE/DOT. The warden's AOE/DOT is magica based, and as such is rather weak-ineffective on stamina builds (fletcher flies or fetcher flies or whatever it's called).

Wardens have two spambales, yes this is different from any other class. It’s Sub and Dive. I’ve found, specifically because of the Warden tank, that the biggest problem the Warden has is the people keep trying to apply other builds to it. They are different the closest thing would be NB but even then Wardens are less squish because they can’t just ghost. They do however have the same AoE DoTs every other stamina class has, Caltrops, Endless, and personally I run Acid too. The ones I’m missing? Blade Cloak so still have access to it.

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

I do picture this, and I do actually see it. What I see; Sub, Caltrops, Endless, Sub pops, 80% of trash die (vet; Sub again finish the rotation, and 80% dead) If we are talking solo situation, Shimmering means please more archers, yes feed me that Ulti

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.
Kiting, age old glourious past time off laughing at the melee DPS while the hopelessly die while doing no damage. Actually makes Sub all the more useful over Caltrops, and Endless. By the way, if you need you can absolutly waste Time HA.

Weaveable Spammable Problem - Yes, the warden's spammable is the bird. However, as dps, I can't do a decent weave with the bird when I am in melee range equipped with a melee weapon (technically possible, but awkward as ****. Kinda like being a NB weaving suprise attack with a bow light-attack ... yea, it can be done, but it sucks). One problem with weaving the bird with a bow-light attack is the damage loss. As a melee dps, I can get in 2x as many 'hits' as I can with a ranged dps. Why? Travel time ... the longer the distance the more the travel time takes. In the time it takes for me to get 40 hits with surprise attack/light-attack (DW), I can only get in 20 hits with the bird/light-attack (bow).
So stand in melee with your bow. No idea why you have trouble with this weave. While weaving Dive you’re pretty tanky because you have full heals going while wasting no resources on Vigor

I don't agree that stamdens dps is sufficient. It's not feasible to determine this based on someone's test dummy parse results.
2 things. Sufficient because it’s in the field of the others. It can not and will not be on top, or ZoS will get accused of P2W. Considering, that Wardens like NB get there survivablity from being on the offensive, get better resource management from being on the offensive, in a group, then actually Wardens struggle more as Target Dummy Warriors than other classes. Doing damage heals me, thanks to Dragon Bones everyone now sees why Dodge Roll is worthless, just run out. Easy to do with Major Expidetion, also means your not wasting resources on Sprint either.

Test-dummies are good for rotation practice, helping to debug skills, armor, weapons, etc. But, as far as using them to assess a person's dps in a pve combat setting ... no. Test-dummies don't try to kill you, they don't fight back, they don't run around, they don't spawn little test-dummy trash mobs that also attack you and try to kill you. Instead, that test dummy stands perfectly still and lets you bludgeon it to death. AND, in the process, you spend absolutely none of your combat resources having to heal yourself, roll-dodge, sprint, etc.

Both stamden and magden suck when it comes to a sustained pve dps rotation. To fix the problem some of the warden's skills/passive will need to change ... but how? Which ones?
[/color=maroon] I don’t run recovery glyphs on either, sustain is not an issue at all even with 2 high cost spamables. What ever your recovery is, plus another 500 from Netch and Nature’s Gift. [/color]

The only thing I have been able to come up with is to give magdens what many keep asking for ... let them be ice mages (ice-magdens). When they use an ice staff, their damage needs to be on par with that of sorcs using lightening or fire staffs. The 'something' could be a skill or passive (or both) in the Winters Embrace Tree.
[/color=maroon] That is not an option, Frost on par with Inferno/Lighting would be OP with its CC. Only MagWarden needs a buff, and it needs to come from a DoT. Revenge or Fletcher. Then it’s low key in PvP because Fletcher is Purgable and Revenge you can move out of. Or of course a major overhaul to something else is another option. [/color]

Stamdens -- they are not going to have an effective, meaningful, sustained dps rotation without a spammable, up-close and personal, melee dps skill. Also, while not an absolute 'must', it would be nice if Stamdens could get a ground based (stamina) AOE/DOT skill that dealt decent damage ... one the warden could cast and then physically walk away from (a druid circle of some sort). But, if they can only have one (not both), then give them the melee dps skill (thorny vine whip for example).
Again, they have the same AoE DoTs as every other Stamina build, and the same melee capability of every other build, and on top of that, you don’t have to play a melee Stam build, something completely unique to any other class. 2x Bow is possible on a Warden

To make it clear to everyone, I'm not asking or suggesting to get rid of the bird. LOL! I make no suggestion as to which skills/passives to replace, that is something I defer to the Devs to determine.

BTW, while we're on the subject of the birds, when I said the warden was OP in pvp, I wasn't talking about the birds ... what makes them OP has nothing to do with the birds.
You’re trying to call Sub weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming. Because that’s it, Warden PvP strength is Sub and Shimmering, high defense and high offense all without needing to go on the defensive (a common theme in my counter argument)

Based on your response (below) defile, I don't think you have a lot of experience or higher-level knowledge regarding this game. Nothing wrong with that, the longer you play the game, the more you learn, including nuances, below the surface game mechanics, etc. It would take too long to explain in in this post, so I won't.
In the interest of staying on topic, all I’ll say is yes, you win the measuring contest. Men O_o

The change between instant heal or delayed is already a good trade off. Minor Defile is already easy to get. If all the skill did was Defile, no one would use it. This skill is good where its at, but minor balance changes, maybe Given everything else that occurs in Cyrodiil, having 1 skill that acts as both an AOE heal to allies while at the same time an AOE heal-debuff to enemies is OP. hardly

Regarding your tank comment -- Just because someone stacks shields, heals others and debuffs enemies doesn't mean they are a tank. While many tanks will do these things in addition to being a tank, doing only those things will not make you a tank.
Umm I run zero shields, earned all my skins tanking, and let’s not forget, your definition of Shield Stacking doesn’t match anyone else’s. More to the point, my diffintion does NOT include your Leeching/Ice Fortress/Shimmering build. In PvP only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up. For me that’s indefinitely. Thats what makes you a tank. Now if you can’t also crowd control and debuff then you are a useless tank. If however you can do both, then you can stand in a keeps fallen door/wall and hold back an angry mob for hours. Some of my most fun Cyrodill days have been multi-hour keep sieges with a good group at my back keeping the heals coming and the ground around me a no-mans land, while I keep the time to cross it to high.

I see the same thing I usually do, the attempted application of another Classes build onto the Warden. It doesn’t work. Warden tank is not a DK, Warden Healer is not a Templar, Warden DPS is not any other DPS either. Time to theory craft from the ground up. In the mean time though, the old Stamina DPS bow, DW build is still pretty effective on the Warden. Much more so than Mag Lighting/Inferno

All warden builds were theory crafted from the ground up. How can you even apply another class' build to the warden if each class has unique skills?

The truth is that warden DPS sucks and needs to be buffed. This was acknowledged by Wrobel already on the PTS forum and is being addressed in the next balance patch.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Panomania wrote: »

If you look at warden and think, "DPS class!!" then you need to look closer. Everything about the class screams healer or tank to me, and in both those roles they do very well.

That said, even mag warden can do well. They may not dps as much as other classes, but if you build right they do mediocre DPS but huge survivability.

All that being said....a few tweaks wouldnt hurt.

Their survivability is junk since there is no room for survival skills in their rotation. Warden doesn't have any offensive survival skills (like Rune Focus or Ritual of Retribution, for example).

Maryal wrote: »

@Maura_Neysa

I'm glad you do so well with your warden tank. I, however, am not interested in tanking, my warden is a stamden dps and the focus of my post was the need to have a meaningful, sustained rotation for the dps stamden doing more difficult pve content. Yes, a bird/bow weave is possible but it produces sub-optimal results. did vHRC tonight on my Bowden. Actually had great survivablity. DPS isn’t my strong suit, but I do continue to have the highest parse on my Bowden

I never said the shalks were "weak an ineffective against brainless NPC but OP against people who can see it coming" ... I never said anything remotely similar to that. I don't appreciate my words being twisted like that. My comment about wardens being OP in pvp never had anything to do with the birds or the shalks. your exact quote

Maryal wrote: »

Problem with the Shalks in a sustained pve dps rotation: 1.) They are not spammable, and 2.) they suck as an AOE. I'm serious! Picture a dozen or more melee trash mobs (in a dungeon) closing in on you from 4 different directions, plus a few archers plinking at you with poison arrows, plus a sub-boss who wants to play WW (World Wrestling) with you. An AOE with a 3-second delay and a narrow hit box just sucks in this type of situation.

You have to keep moving and roll-dodging to avoid damage while somehow getting rid of all those trash mobs before you can focus in on the boss (semi-boss). What you need is a (stamina) ground-based AOE/DOT ... one that you can cast and then move away from ... actually, you need a couple of these. You semi-spam the AOE/DOT to kill the trash mobs while getting in a few hits on the boss. BTW, you are also trying to keep up your health, avoid damage, and manage your resources at the same time. Once you've taken care of the trash mobs, you focus on the boss who still wants to play WW with you.

You need a rotation that allows you to move while doing damage, AND you can't afford to waste any global cool-downs or resources. Unfortunately, a lot can happen during the shalks' 3-second delay, things that cause the shalks to miss their target. I won't belabor the point, but, I found out the hard way that this skill is not a good fit for these types of situations.

If that isn’t you calling them weak and/or ineffective, then my apologies. Sure seems like that’s exactly what you meant

Your statement: "only one thing matters in making a tank, the Shield you carry and how long you can keep it up." speaks volumes about the level of knowledge you have about this game. How so? Because Tanking is most definitely what I understand best. It’s the only role in which I’ve achieved Leader Board status on.

There are many other things I disagree with you about regarding your comments to my previous post, but I feel that anything I have to say will only fall on 'deaf ears' so there is no point in commenting further.
They will of course fall on deaf ears if you don’t actually say them. I have taken the time to address your arguments point by point. And with regards to points that don’t have my comments after them, it’s either because I agree, I don’t know for myself, or I don’t have any evidence to counter with. I play all 3 roles with my 3 Wardens, I do not know only one so when discussing the Warden I use all three. Some skills, like the Netch are always good, other skills like Dive, or Gate are great skills in one role and useless in others. This Tread topic is “Should the Warden be Buffed” well yes an no. Do Warden Tanks need buffed? Not really. Do Stamden need buffed? Maybe a little, Do Magdens need buff? OMG yes, they are in last place by 5-10k DPS. I have argued where you seem to say that a skill needs buffed, when it’s already one of the Wardens strongest skills. I want the right skills buffed so that Wardens are compedative and not slapped with the Nerf Hammer again. Aka Dive, while there is nearly as much QQing about Sub.