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Premade groups are ruining battlegrounds...

  • Conduit0
    Conduit0
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    I believe a big part of the problem is how the MMR system works. There is no apparent cap to your MMR, so it just keeps rising endlessly and if you play enough eventually your MMR is so high that only premades a few other solo players are anywhere near your MMR. This causes the long queues and getting put in against the same few premades over and over again.

    To fix the problem two things need to happen. First a MMR cap needs to added, so that no matter how much you play you can never reach a point where there is no one at your level to play with. Two, a MMR degradation system needs to put in place so that players will naturally stratify based on skill and amount of time played.
  • Kel
    Kel
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    Yes
    Conduit0 wrote: »
    I believe a big part of the problem is how the MMR system works. There is no apparent cap to your MMR, so it just keeps rising endlessly and if you play enough eventually your MMR is so high that only premades a few other solo players are anywhere near your MMR. This causes the long queues and getting put in against the same few premades over and over again.

    To fix the problem two things need to happen. First a MMR cap needs to added, so that no matter how much you play you can never reach a point where there is no one at your level to play with. Two, a MMR degradation system needs to put in place so that players will naturally stratify based on skill and amount of time played.

    Another solution is to just make a completely solo queue for everyone.
    I understand players want to play with friends, but there's always Cyrodiil for that. The way it's set up now, you're only grouping to pug stomp.

    One of two things need to happen...either a separate queue for groups, or just a solo queue for all. Nothing stops you from playing small scale pvp with your friends in Cyrodiil...miss me with that nonsense.

    I'll also gladly wait for a longer queue if the result is not getting rolled in every match by a premade too, so that excuse (longer queue) just doesn't hold water for me. I'm running into premades all the time, I think the queue times won't be horrible with the amount I'm seeing. I wonder how many premades would stick around once they can't pug stomp anymore and actually face coordinated compatition.
    I'd wager you'd see premades drop like flies.
    Edited by Kel on December 14, 2018 10:20AM
  • Odovacar
    Odovacar
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    No
    If you're PUG'n...you just got to rally your group before it starts. I always pop my mic on and usually get someone to turn there's on or text at least to discuss or direct. This doesn't have to be a constant 1-man commentary or freaking during the run if things aren't going well, but just a "is everyone on the same page" talk...i.e. Ok whos grabbing whos defending, etc. This is not full proof but at least puts you and your team in better odds if you are all on the same page.
    Father of 3 ESO player - Daily late night logins ; )

    PS4-NA
    Remember to have fun because at the end of the day that's what this whole gaming thing is about.
  • Conduit0
    Conduit0
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    Kel wrote: »
    Conduit0 wrote: »
    I believe a big part of the problem is how the MMR system works. There is no apparent cap to your MMR, so it just keeps rising endlessly and if you play enough eventually your MMR is so high that only premades a few other solo players are anywhere near your MMR. This causes the long queues and getting put in against the same few premades over and over again.

    To fix the problem two things need to happen. First a MMR cap needs to added, so that no matter how much you play you can never reach a point where there is no one at your level to play with. Two, a MMR degradation system needs to put in place so that players will naturally stratify based on skill and amount of time played.

    Another solution is to just make a completely solo queue for everyone.
    I understand players want to play with friends, but there's always Cyrodiil for that. The way it's set up now, you're only grouping to pug stomp.

    One of two things need to happen...either a separate queue for groups, or just a solo queue for all. Nothing stops you from playing small scale pvp with your friends in Cyrodiil...miss me with that nonsense.

    I'll also gladly wait for a longer queue if the result is not getting rolled in every match by a premade too, so that excuse (longer queue) just doesn't hold water for me. I'm running into premades all the time, I think the queue times won't be horrible with the amount I'm seeing. I wonder how many premades would stick around once they can't pug stomp anymore and actually face coordinated compatition.
    I'd wager you'd see premades drop like flies.

    At no point did I say I was against solo queuing, I was pointing out that there are other problems with the way BGs work that need to be addressed. Simply getting rid of premades won't fix the problem and will likely exasperate the long queue times. In fact I suspect if you get rid of group queuing without addressing the issues I brought up you will simply be trading "premades ruining" BGs for impossibly long queues and smurfs ruining BGs.
  • kaevix
    kaevix
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    Yes
    I heard there's a duo on PC NA that's made up of a MagDen and a MagSorc, and the latter is incredibly toxic even though he's very mediocre and gets carried by the MagDen.

    EDIT: Now that I've queued up for a few battlegrounds, I've come to realise that handsome MagSorc devil is me!!!! What a man!!!!!!!!!
    Edited by kaevix on December 15, 2018 9:06AM
    Why, when an AV actress leashes her pet slave and sits on his face she's called sexy or a babe, but when I do that to my pvp opponents, I'm called toxic?

    Why, when someone swaps toons to a different faction to farm 25k AP for transmutes, it's seen as a bit of naughty fun, but when I delete my DC rank 50 Grand Overlord with 4000 hours clocked to create an EP Argonian, I'm called a faction swapper?
  • idk
    idk
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    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    After all, this is an MMO.

    Well on that basis you wouldn't have four man teams in instanced content, which is basically totally opposed to the core idea of an MMORPG - massively multiplayer set in a persistent world.

    This really does not make sense. Especially in the context of what you quoted even with what was edited out.
    Really, idk
  • HallowedUndead
    No
    Play games with friends or no. The choice is yours. Dont complain bc a group is communicating and yours isn't
  • Anethum
    Anethum
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    Yes
    happy days
    @Anethum from .ua
  • Sylosi
    Sylosi
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    idk wrote: »
    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    After all, this is an MMO.

    Well on that basis you wouldn't have four man teams in instanced content, which is basically totally opposed to the core idea of an MMORPG - massively multiplayer set in a persistent world.

    This really does not make sense. Especially in the context of what you quoted even with what was edited out.

    It makes perfect sense, clearly this being an MMO does not get in the way of them diverging from that if they think something would be popular / better, which is why you have content like BG, dungeons, etc that are not "massively multiplayer".

    So there is no reason to think this being an MMO would stop them implementing a more restrictive queue system (it hasn't stopped other MMOs or multiplayer PvP games), not that the notion even makes much sense in the first place, pre-made groups are not a requirement of something being massively multiplayer.
    Edited by Sylosi on December 18, 2018 11:29AM
  • BuddyAces
    BuddyAces
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    having grouped teams vs solo teams is a big no-no in every pvp game ever made.

    Seeing it here is bewildering. Who makes the decisions at ZOS? do they even play games?

    Balancing PvP and pve together is even worse. But that would cost money. Heaven forbid they do that.
    They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
  • heavier
    heavier
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Yes, nothing you can really do when your In a pug and the other group is a 4 stack of experienced pvpers.
    gzfr7ch6ba4n.png
    0n25onaouoiy.png

    Truth is no one wants to be in the receiving end of a premade group. If a team doesn't even want to leave the spawn and the other team has their teammates completely leave and one left its not really fair.

    ahahaha
    in TERA there was soloq 3s (3 v 3 with permadeath, respawn at end of round)
    and teamq 3s

    premades face premades
    pug face pug

    there should be larger scale BG like Corsair's Stronghold in ESO
    20 v 20, maybe allow premades of 3 :)

    eventually 20 v 20 premades of 5 were removed from CS and limited to two. In the hayday of CS there were premades of 5 and beautiful matches were common because EVERYONE knew what to do. there were even jackpots...you could win a diamond (actually worth something in TERA unlike ESO where diamonds are fodder).

    in 40/40 PUG/premade mix 40/40 were fully coordinated in teams of 20 with one leader each team.

    I have never experienced such glorious comradery and combined effort ever before (except maybe in running or soccer, but that was amplified by the intensity of sport) or since I played Corsair's Stronghold in TERA.

    (onesided rounds did happen sometimes I'll admit) but that's not surprising.
    in CS defending 7/20 players were traditionally 3-1-3 along the inner wall and ladders to prevent people from climbing into the base and licking the rock.

    13/20 defended a objectives, trying to prevent 20 players from progressing. the time it took the first attacking team to burn the rock, going through two layers of walls in a dps race, would be the time the first defenders would need to beat when it is their turn to attack.
    Edited by heavier on December 20, 2018 7:15AM
  • heavier
    heavier
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    ofSunhold wrote: »
    Don't hate the player, hate the game. Pitting PUGs against premades sucks, but it's not the premades fault (or the PUGs either). That is 100 percent a dev mistake.

    I'm seeing lots and lots of PUGs though, and PUG x 3 is fun as hell, win or lose. And I know for sure they're PUGs when my opponents are on my team next match. :)

    I've had my share of memorable pvp experiences in ESO and in other games, but premade is meta (I declare it rn), so it's indistinguishable from hating the game pragmatically.
    Lol NO. I you want to do chaotic PVP with random people then go to Cyro and there is plenty. BGs were ZOS' response for small group PVP. Either play with your friends and form your own group or stop whining.

    lul.
    one way to deal with this is having the chance of a premade getting split in half by RNG if they're the only premade in the Q

    a party of 4 ques and 2 end up on one team and 2 on another.

    the combat lends itself a tad towards exploitation and pvp...ah there is a physical aspect of it that extends beyond meta, even into the actual gameplay. dying to a coordinated group is an important thing to learn to avoid. but, when one team is able to take on 8 players that decide to stop fighting each other and only focus on one group, we need to reference my post in another thread https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5679020/#Comment_5679020 where I go on for a bit on how 6 v 1 shouldn't be survivable for an arbitrary period of freecasting.

    I wouldn't even say that the possibility of maintaining a 6 v 1 is an indication that the entire system of combatant relations is imbalanced...it's rather a byproduct of how the 0 cooldown, 5 skill slotted + ult, sustain, build, overall design has meshed together. in evolution certain entities may find themselves demigods, and they must be respected. today we view them as allstars. In the marathon there is Eliud Kipchoge. In the distance of two miles there is my Great Uncle Bradley. Baseball had Barry Bonds. Muhammad Ali in boxing.
    The system is immature and premades in PUG should come with the possibility of fracturing during the matchmaking.

    It will always encourage predatation as long as it remains.
    Do you think Muhammed Ali, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rocky Balboa would team up and start random fights in public just because they are able to take on 50 people? surely not.

    when people have that kind of mentality we end up with rampages.
    that amount of honing and training for combat leads them to be victorious, in their respective eras and weights, in fights of 1 v 1.

    everyone looks bad when 4 people get 500 points before either of the other team manage to break two.

    premades are one of the many borrowed aspects in ESO that clearly came from other games. we can improve the system by considering it a vote of confidence that the party qued has in its members. 4 people have confidence in each other, perhaps that confidence should be tested by the matchmaking system.
  • Sy1ph5
    Sy1ph5
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    Ye that would be so lit I grouped up with my friends because I wanted to play against them./s
  • RedTalon
    RedTalon
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    No
    Not been having issues with them, but then don't deathmatch
  • Thogard
    Thogard
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    No
    BP_Sparty wrote: »
    Another day of solo queing on my Magdk, another day of fighting the same 3 man premade 3 games in a row. Thanks zos for such a balanced and well thought out mmr system where I never see 90% of the bg playerbase and only fighting the same people every single game. Getting real tired of it
    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    BP_Sparty wrote: »
    Another day of solo queing on my Magdk, another day of fighting the same 3 man premade 3 games in a row. Thanks zos for such a balanced and well thought out mmr system where I never see 90% of the bg playerbase and only fighting the same people every single game. Getting real tired of it

    +1

    To play devils advocate...

    If there’s anyone who should be matched up against premades, it should be people with as many matches played as you two.
    RedTalon wrote: »
    Not been having issues with them, but then don't deathmatch
    Sy1ph5 wrote: »
    Ye that would be so lit I grouped up with my friends because I wanted to play against them./s

    You can argue with them about who gets the good controller, then accuse them of screenwatching
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Sy1ph5
    Sy1ph5
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    Jokes on my brother all the controllers are bad. I wore them out practicing shorthopping.
  • Mystikkal
    Mystikkal
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    The reality is the majority of the top players duo or solo queue
  • Thogard
    Thogard
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    No
    Mystikkal wrote: »
    The reality is the majority of the top players duo or solo queue

    Which is a shame, imo, because organized 4v4 is more fun :(
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / Madam Clamslam

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • Richard_scottub17_ESO
    No
    So I dont think so cause I have jumped in with all four randoms and over voice chat we figured out what to do and how to run and organized ourselves and we won against at least one premade group maybe two. Bugs is great for premade groups it's what we all wanted I never run with a big group in cyrodill and got spanked for it made me want to give up all together. In conclusion bgs is meant for premade groups
  • heavier
    heavier
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    So I dont think so cause I have jumped in with all four randoms and over voice chat we figured out what to do and how to run and organized ourselves and we won against at least one premade group maybe two. Bugs is great for premade groups it's what we all wanted I never run with a big group in cyrodill and got spanked for it made me want to give up all together. In conclusion bgs is meant for premade groups

    wtf why doesn't PC masterrace have voice channels T_T
  • Oathunbound
    Oathunbound
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    Yes
    I honestly think they can improve bg's substantialy if they simply removed the current MMR system and try to make the group finder pair premades with other premades. Not saying its the magic bullet to make bg's more fun but would be 2 big steps in the right direction imo
  • idk
    idk
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    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    After all, this is an MMO.

    Well on that basis you wouldn't have four man teams in instanced content, which is basically totally opposed to the core idea of an MMORPG - massively multiplayer set in a persistent world.

    This really does not make sense. Especially in the context of what you quoted even with what was edited out.

    It makes perfect sense, clearly this being an MMO does not get in the way of them diverging from that if they think something would be popular / better, which is why you have content like BG, dungeons, etc that are not "massively multiplayer".

    So there is no reason to think this being an MMO would stop them implementing a more restrictive queue system (it hasn't stopped other MMOs or multiplayer PvP games), not that the notion even makes much sense in the first place, pre-made groups are not a requirement of something being massively multiplayer.

    It is easy to say it has not stopped other MMOs but without examples it is empty words. And for this it has to be examples of major MMORPGs Not Mobas or simple multiplayer games as they are irrelevant.
    Really, idk
  • Sylosi
    Sylosi
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    idk wrote: »
    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    After all, this is an MMO.

    Well on that basis you wouldn't have four man teams in instanced content, which is basically totally opposed to the core idea of an MMORPG - massively multiplayer set in a persistent world.

    This really does not make sense. Especially in the context of what you quoted even with what was edited out.

    It makes perfect sense, clearly this being an MMO does not get in the way of them diverging from that if they think something would be popular / better, which is why you have content like BG, dungeons, etc that are not "massively multiplayer".

    So there is no reason to think this being an MMO would stop them implementing a more restrictive queue system (it hasn't stopped other MMOs or multiplayer PvP games), not that the notion even makes much sense in the first place, pre-made groups are not a requirement of something being massively multiplayer.

    It is easy to say it has not stopped other MMOs but without examples it is empty words. And for this it has to be examples of major MMORPGs Not Mobas or simple multiplayer games as they are irrelevant.

    I guess you haven't played many MMORPGs, but anyway GW2 for instance has had various ways to try and deal with pre-mades, currently it is probably the most restrictive it has ever been, where you have a solo/duo queue and pre-mades have a separate thing of automated tournaments.

    As for MOBA/Multiplayer games they are completely relevant, if your "argument" is people should group up in an MMO because it is a multiplayer game, then exactly the same applies to normal multiplayers.

    One of the big reasons that shooters, MOBAs, etc are so much more successful at PvP than the joke that is MMORPGs is precisely because they deal with pre-mades/solo/duo players so much better, the matchmaking is far more restrictive in those games and far better (also helped by bigger populations), which results in far better PvP.

    Which is why PvP is such a failure in MMORPGs, if I want decent small team PvP then the absolute basis for that is that the two teams (let's just ignore the idiocy of three teams in BGs) are somewhat similar in ability/experience/set-up, etc to produce a somewhat competitive game, that is the basis of skilled, fun, PvP.

    Which is what for the most part I get in say Overwatch, doesn't matter whether I queue solo or queue with a couple of friends, the majority of the games the two teams are within a reasonable approximation of each other to produce decent PvP.

    In ESO on the other hand, why would I queue solo to end up against a 4-man pre-made or conversely why would I make the effort to form a pre-made knowing much of the time I will end up rolling over solo/duo in a dull match. I mean I guess for trash tier PvE players who don't care about decent PvP that might be "fun", but for most of us it isn't which is why we play our PvP elsewhere and PvP is so "successful" in this game.
    Edited by Sylosi on January 2, 2019 1:25PM
  • jediodyn_ESO
    jediodyn_ESO
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    Yes
    If they don’t do something about this before the Mayhem event this Jan, it’s going to turn even more players off from PvP.

    PvP Population is so bad right now and on any average night 3/4 matches you pug into have a hardcore tank/warden/dedicated healer premade team. Much of the motivation that caused this recently came from the value in farming strategist, to wear or sell.

    BG are really not much fun anymore.
  • s.barker1990b16_ESO
    Yes
    They need 2 separate queues. Solo join, and premade join (for parties of 2+ together)
    battlegrounds are going to die out faster than light if they keep them as 1 single queue...
  • heavier
    heavier
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    They need 2 separate queues. Solo join, and premade join (for parties of 2+ together)
    battlegrounds are going to die out faster than light if they keep them as 1 single queue...

    or the premade needs to get split if there aren't other premades. having a bunch of meanies divided so that maybe 2 are on one team and the other two are sent to the remaining teams separately would be humorous.
  • Weesacs
    Weesacs
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    Yes
    To be fair its not the premades fault as there is only one queue. I extensively play battlegrounds and its patently obvious in 90% of matches a premade will beat a pug, regardless of experience and skill.

    I'm not sure myself why there are not separate queues for both premades and pugs ... I think the general census is that there are not enough premades? However what I can say about this is from speaking to fellow long term players is that if there was some kind team competition or team ranking system then more teams would join, thus increasing the number of teams which inadvertently should allow for a premade v premade and pug v pug queuing system.
    PS4 - EU - DC - Breton Templar
  • MaxJrFTW
    MaxJrFTW
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    Yes
    kaevix wrote: »
    I heard there's a duo on PC NA that's made up of a MagDen and a MagSorc, and the latter is incredibly toxic even though he's very mediocre and gets carried by the MagDen.

    EDIT: Now that I've queued up for a few battlegrounds, I've come to realise that handsome MagSorc devil is me!!!! What a man!!!!!!!!!

    At least you're honest. I've played against you two and you're 100% getting carried, while the other person is getting carried in part by a broken class.
    idk wrote: »
    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    Sylosi wrote: »
    idk wrote: »
    After all, this is an MMO.

    Well on that basis you wouldn't have four man teams in instanced content, which is basically totally opposed to the core idea of an MMORPG - massively multiplayer set in a persistent world.

    This really does not make sense. Especially in the context of what you quoted even with what was edited out.

    It makes perfect sense, clearly this being an MMO does not get in the way of them diverging from that if they think something would be popular / better, which is why you have content like BG, dungeons, etc that are not "massively multiplayer".

    So there is no reason to think this being an MMO would stop them implementing a more restrictive queue system (it hasn't stopped other MMOs or multiplayer PvP games), not that the notion even makes much sense in the first place, pre-made groups are not a requirement of something being massively multiplayer.

    It is easy to say it has not stopped other MMOs but without examples it is empty words. And for this it has to be examples of major MMORPGs Not Mobas or simple multiplayer games as they are irrelevant.

    In World of Warcraft you cannot queue random bgs with a group larger than 5 even though the max group size is 40. Bgs in WoW require 10, 15, and 40 players per team. A 5 man premade does make a difference in the 10 player bgs, but not in the other 2. There's also rated bgs and arenas for people who want to have a fun and challenging experience, instead of beating baby seals like it is in ESO when a premade queues bgs.

    There's this asian 4 man premade in the high mmr ladder, and they queue for hours every single morning on the pc na servers. If you're high mmr in ESO, forget about having fun early in the day because it isn't going to happen.
    Edited by MaxJrFTW on January 14, 2019 3:14PM
  • StarOfElyon
    StarOfElyon
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    Yes
    Yes, they are.
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    Yes
    So I dont think so cause I have jumped in with all four randoms and over voice chat we figured out what to do and how to run and organized ourselves and we won against at least one premade group maybe two. Bugs is great for premade groups it's what we all wanted I never run with a big group in cyrodill and got spanked for it made me want to give up all together. In conclusion bgs is meant for premade groups

    No voice chat on PC.
    @jcm2606 | PC NA | CP 940+ | Stormproof | Boethia's Scythe
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