"It will always be items worse than what you can craft" №2

QuebraRegra

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

objectively saying, isn't Crown Store supposed to make one skip time or look better? i don't see the problem

and this is the pay to win point of view

In preparation for the conversion to "FREE TO PLAY" (P2WIN model) with the next chapter

jedtb16_ESO

JKorr wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

All it is going to do is take a little time off.

really? little? LOL

Yes, 2 weeks is not very long at all. And if someone is really dumb enough to drop $50 dollars on each scroll just to achieve the frankly meaningless title of "master crafter" faster (speaking as someone who is a handful of hours away from my final weapon 9th traits), then more power to them.

but, but.......there is no title.

No, there isn't. Not "master crafter", at least. If you manage to research every trait at least once, you'll get the "Trait Master" achievement. Which will win you exactly nothing except the Moonstone White dye.. Doesn't matter how long it takes you to finish the research, so using the scrolls to shorten the time isn't "cheating" or "pay to win". Unless, of course, getting the Moonstone White dye means you win the game. Imo the "Unsurpassed Crafter" and "Librarian" when I finally got them meant more.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Achievements

You can get the "Master Crafter" achievement when you complete your first master writ. Then you can get "Master of Many Crafts" when you complete 25 master writs. Last one is "Unsurpassed Crafter" when you complete 100 master writs.

hey, i have researched every trait. all alchemy done. all enchanting done. know all provisioning recipes bar two. know all crafting motifs bar four militant whatever it is and half a dozen bouyant whatsisname all on one toon.... i have master of many crafts and unsurpassed crafter.....

there is no title for any of it.....

so i'll ask again.....

what did i win?

sweet fa that's what. other than the satisfaction of being able to craft stuff for my many alts.

there is no title for that and no leader board.

now assume i had done the trait research using the crown store scrolls.... what have i won?

nothing, nada, zilch....

there is no p2w here.

Kova

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.

For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.

Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.

The "win" in p2w does not refer and has never reffered to self imposed personal goals. It refers to the win conditions specifically established by developers of the game of which insentive is established or performing better in player opposition If you put stock into collecting non combat pets as your personal end game goal, having exclusive pets on the cash shop does not become pay to win.

Only when you are able to spend money on a statistical advantage that is entriely impossible to aquire via gameplay does a game encroach pay to win territory.

A pretty tautological way of saying "it's subjective" which doesn't invalidate my point in the slightest bit because, and this is important, the "win conditions" were not stated by either you or the developers. Without this information, we pragmatically can refer to such items as pay to win OR admit that if there is no such condition stated then nothing that can and ever will be done is to be considered pay to win.

So unless we have a good source for the win condition, my point still stands that this entire argument is full of ridiculous, aesthetically pleasing platitudes in which the only purpose of is to fill incessant conversation between those with the ability to benifit from the inclusion of cash shops, and those who don't have such ability.

No sorry. P2w literally means when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods.

Earning a victory in a bg match, cyro campaign, or in a pve enounter of any calibur are the established win conditions since player progression and player ability directly effect the outome based entirely around incentives put in place by the devs at this games very core.

I couldnt care less about those with particular feelings on a cash shop. But throwing around p2w inaccurately triggers me. It is fundementally impossible for purely cosmetic items or items that shorten a given grind time to be p2w.

See, I can completely agree with that standpoint. So now, using that same line of logic, I will mention the Warden class. We have clear, empirical data that shows that a player is able to build numerical values that give said player a statistical advantage that no other class can attain. In order to use the Warden class, a player must purchase the Morrowind chapter.

Does this meet the qualifications you've set?

Ronzar

Kova wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.

For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.

Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.

The "win" in p2w does not refer and has never reffered to self imposed personal goals. It refers to the win conditions specifically established by developers of the game of which insentive is established or performing better in player opposition If you put stock into collecting non combat pets as your personal end game goal, having exclusive pets on the cash shop does not become pay to win.

Only when you are able to spend money on a statistical advantage that is entriely impossible to aquire via gameplay does a game encroach pay to win territory.

A pretty tautological way of saying "it's subjective" which doesn't invalidate my point in the slightest bit because, and this is important, the "win conditions" were not stated by either you or the developers. Without this information, we pragmatically can refer to such items as pay to win OR admit that if there is no such condition stated then nothing that can and ever will be done is to be considered pay to win.

So unless we have a good source for the win condition, my point still stands that this entire argument is full of ridiculous, aesthetically pleasing platitudes in which the only purpose of is to fill incessant conversation between those with the ability to benifit from the inclusion of cash shops, and those who don't have such ability.

No sorry. P2w literally means when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods.

Earning a victory in a bg match, cyro campaign, or in a pve enounter of any calibur are the established win conditions since player progression and player ability directly effect the outome based entirely around incentives put in place by the devs at this games very core.

I couldnt care less about those with particular feelings on a cash shop. But throwing around p2w inaccurately triggers me. It is fundementally impossible for purely cosmetic items or items that shorten a given grind time to be p2w.

See, I can completely agree with that standpoint. So now, using that same line of logic, I will mention the Warden class. We have clear, empirical data that shows that a player is able to build numerical values that give said player a statistical advantage that no other class can attain. In order to use the Warden class, a player must purchase the Morrowind chapter.

Does this meet the qualifications you've set?

I understand what your saying here, and you are correct, you must buy the Morrowind chapter to play the new class. However, I can still complete the game and "win" without playing as a Warden. If a person's definition of "win" means to have at least one character of every class then yes, I suppose you would need to purchase the chapter. I am not losing anything by not having the Morrowind chapter and can finish all of the content I have paid for. Just because one player has a Warden and another does not, doesn't mean they somehow win.

peacenote

Was thinking about this, and have some more comments.

I believe that part of what is fueling this debate is the fact that I have heard, throughout my years of playing MMOs, "p2w" references used interchangeably with "cosmetic only items." I don't mean in ESO, necessarily, but in general.

"Cosmetic only" options sold via microtransactions better translate to the MMO genre. What that means is players using real money to purchase in-game items will have no game play advantage. I would wager a guess that most people are pretty comfortable with MMOs using cosmetic items to make money that helps deliver content we all enjoy. Some examples:

• Special Mounts
• Special Pets
• Costumes
• Name Changes
• Appearance Changes

If someone wants to pay $40 for a red, white, and blue horse, it hurts no one (except for maybe people who are serious about immersion). As long as the horse doesn't run faster, or can carry more items, or is accessible WAYYYYYY earlier than the in-game method of obtaining a comparable mount... we all win, right?

There are also items that count as "additional functionality" but are (almost) universally accepted as an OK way for MMOs to make additional revenue, even with a subscription:

• Race/Class/Alliance Change
• Additional Account Slots
• Major Additions to the Game (Expansions, Chapters, Etc.)

But **then** we have items that go beyond "cosmetic" and start seeping into the "quality of life" category. Some examples (including ESO specific):

• Banker/Merchant Assistant
• Riding Lessons
• XP Pots/Scrolls
• Research Scrolls
• Additional Storage

Basically, many different ways to bypass time sinks built into the game. NOW we have a debate! Are these items "p2w?"

I think the answer really depends on how litigious you are. MMOs are designed to be a grind. There literally is no winning. It is THE POINT OF THE WHOLE GENRE. You never "win"... there is always more worlds to conquer, and people to save. (Or possibly murder.) And ZOS, with its "play the way you want" slogan, endorsed this idea indirectly even further.

Let's take PvP for a minute. Really, truly, what is winning? Staying alive against another character? Taking a resource? Winning a campaign? Becoming emperor? Becoming emperor and never losing the title? Finishing every single PvP achievement?

Let's take PvE. Do I win if I hit max level (also a consideration for PvP)? What if I finish the main quest story? What if I successfully finish a dungeon? What if I successfully finish ALL the dungeons? What if I do all the achievements possible, but then start another character?

If the currency in an MMO is time, because an MMO is a never-ending staircase of content, and p2w means "when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods" ... doesn't any reduction in grind do this, by that definition? If I have no way to reduce the time it takes me to do something except by a Crown Store purchase.... sorry, but you're paying real money for an in-game advantage.

But I don't want to get into a debate into what p2w means. Let's just keep going for a minute.

If ESO had been released with XP Pots and Scrolls, Riding Lessons, and Additional Storage to purchase, people would have been SOOOO crying p2w! But a funny thing happens with MMOs. The most important thing you need is a community. You need people to play with. Everyone stops playing, and the game is dead. We all lose.

So, at a certain point in the timeline of an MMO, those "quality of life" items suddenly become ways for our new friends to tackle new content with us. It's a way for people to not get overwhelmed by the grind and give up before they get started. There is a subtle line between handing new players things that the veterans "fought for" and helping new players "catch up quickly" so they can help keep the community vibrant.

Therefore, my point is, maybe we need a new term. I don't care what "p2w" really means. If research scrolls aren't technically "p2w" but they kill the game... does it matter? On the other hand, I don't care that new players might get some advantages that I don't so that there are new people in the community to replace the people that quit. I can't run a trial by myself.

"Cosmetic only" is the safest way an MMO can do microtransactions and escape criticism. But, it might not even be best for the game. Really, what we should care about, as a community, is if the items in the Crown Store help or hurt the game overall. Forget about "fair" or "win conditions" or a "statistical advantage." We're all in this together.

This is why my barometer has always been: Does this idea increase community engagement or negatively impact the economy? Will it widen the gap between veterans and newbies, or simply help some people catch up? Does it directly compete with how some players make in game currency? Does its use by others reduce my effectiveness if I can't afford the item? Does the idea fit nicely into the lore and core mechanics of the game, or was it obviously implemented to gouge players without apparent consideration for overall player base experience?

In my opinion, based on this premise, I think non-Crown Store exclusive motifs and research scrolls should go. They de-value crafters. Transmutation should never have been tied to known traits, or it should have been made so crafters can re-trait your gear for you. I also think outfit tokens should go as long as we are charged gold to use motifs we already learned in the outfit system. Finally, I think furniture that can also be crafted should be greatly limited, removed from the Crown Store, or cost way MORE than Crown Store exclusives to encourage people to consider crafting. At this point in the game's timeline, XP scrolls and pots, and clearly inferior food, drink, and poison items, should stay. Riding lessons should stay but an option to pay more to accelerate horse learning for exorbitant amounts of gold should be added.

Other than that, I think ZOS has done a really nice job balancing the Crown Store, ESO+, and in-game-for-gold options. It is only been very recently that some ideas seem to be skirting the line, and veering from consistent design logic. Let's hope that doesn't continue.

Twenty0zTsunami

peacenote wrote: »

Was thinking about this, and have some more comments.

I believe that part of what is fueling this debate is the fact that I have heard, throughout my years of playing MMOs, "p2w" references used interchangeably with "cosmetic only items." I don't mean in ESO, necessarily, but in general.

"Cosmetic only" options sold via microtransactions better translate to the MMO genre. What that means is players using real money to purchase in-game items will have no game play advantage. I would wager a guess that most people are pretty comfortable with MMOs using cosmetic items to make money that helps deliver content we all enjoy. Some examples:

• Special Mounts
• Special Pets
• Costumes
• Name Changes
• Appearance Changes

If someone wants to pay $40 for a red, white, and blue horse, it hurts no one (except for maybe people who are serious about immersion). As long as the horse doesn't run faster, or can carry more items, or is accessible WAYYYYYY earlier than the in-game method of obtaining a comparable mount... we all win, right?

There are also items that count as "additional functionality" but are (almost) universally accepted as an OK way for MMOs to make additional revenue, even with a subscription:

• Race/Class/Alliance Change
• Additional Account Slots
• Major Additions to the Game (Expansions, Chapters, Etc.)

But **then** we have items that go beyond "cosmetic" and start seeping into the "quality of life" category. Some examples (including ESO specific):

• Banker/Merchant Assistant
• Riding Lessons
• XP Pots/Scrolls
• Research Scrolls
• Additional Storage

Basically, many different ways to bypass time sinks built into the game. NOW we have a debate! Are these items "p2w?"

I think the answer really depends on how litigious you are. MMOs are designed to be a grind. There literally is no winning. It is THE POINT OF THE WHOLE GENRE. You never "win"... there is always more worlds to conquer, and people to save. (Or possibly murder.) And ZOS, with its "play the way you want" slogan, endorsed this idea indirectly even further.

Let's take PvP for a minute. Really, truly, what is winning? Staying alive against another character? Taking a resource? Winning a campaign? Becoming emperor? Becoming emperor and never losing the title? Finishing every single PvP achievement?

Let's take PvE. Do I win if I hit max level (also a consideration for PvP)? What if I finish the main quest story? What if I successfully finish a dungeon? What if I successfully finish ALL the dungeons? What if I do all the achievements possible, but then start another character?

If the currency in an MMO is time, because an MMO is a never-ending staircase of content, and p2w means "when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods" ... doesn't any reduction in grind do this, by that definition? If I have no way to reduce the time it takes me to do something except by a Crown Store purchase.... sorry, but you're paying real money for an in-game advantage.

But I don't want to get into a debate into what p2w means. Let's just keep going for a minute.

If ESO had been released with XP Pots and Scrolls, Riding Lessons, and Additional Storage to purchase, people would have been SOOOO crying p2w! But a funny thing happens with MMOs. The most important thing you need is a community. You need people to play with. Everyone stops playing, and the game is dead. We all lose.

So, at a certain point in the timeline of an MMO, those "quality of life" items suddenly become ways for our new friends to tackle new content with us. It's a way for people to not get overwhelmed by the grind and give up before they get started. There is a subtle line between handing new players things that the veterans "fought for" and helping new players "catch up quickly" so they can help keep the community vibrant.

Therefore, my point is, maybe we need a new term. I don't care what "p2w" really means. If research scrolls aren't technically "p2w" but they kill the game... does it matter? On the other hand, I don't care that new players might get some advantages that I don't so that there are new people in the community to replace the people that quit. I can't run a trial by myself.

"Cosmetic only" is the safest way an MMO can do microtransactions and escape criticism. But, it might not even be best for the game. Really, what we should care about, as a community, is if the items in the Crown Store help or hurt the game overall. Forget about "fair" or "win conditions" or a "statistical advantage." We're all in this together.

This is why my barometer has always been: Does this idea increase community engagement or negatively impact the economy? Will it widen the gap between veterans and newbies, or simply help some people catch up? Does it directly compete with how some players make in game currency? Does its use by others reduce my effectiveness if I can't afford the item? Does the idea fit nicely into the lore and core mechanics of the game, or was it obviously implemented to gouge players without apparent consideration for overall player base experience?

In my opinion, based on this premise, I think non-Crown Store exclusive motifs and research scrolls should go. They de-value crafters. Transmutation should never have been tied to known traits, or it should have been made so crafters can re-trait your gear for you. I also think outfit tokens should go as long as we are charged gold to use motifs we already learned in the outfit system. Finally, I think furniture that can also be crafted should be greatly limited, removed from the Crown Store, or cost way MORE than Crown Store exclusives to encourage people to consider crafting. At this point in the game's timeline, XP scrolls and pots, and clearly inferior food, drink, and poison items, should stay. Riding lessons should stay but an option to pay more to accelerate horse learning for exorbitant amounts of gold should be added.

Other than that, I think ZOS has done a really nice job balancing the Crown Store, ESO+, and in-game-for-gold options. It is only been very recently that some ideas seem to be skirting the line, and veering from consistent design logic. Let's hope that doesn't continue.

it's definitely going to continue.

Beardimus

Really not an issue. You can buy 15x1 day vouchers with writs.

If you want to pay a huge £20 premium to cut 15 days to shortcut that well good luck to you. Unsure some will = profit for ZOS = good for game longevity.

ClockworkCityBugs

@Beardimus you know 1 day scroll has a cooldown, dont you?

Beardimus

nope didn't know that as never used them - I just did it the 'proper' way regardless in 15 days then you can advance 30 days right? That's a big shortcut.

And like I say, people want to blow £20 / $25 on doing that as they impatient, well good for ZOS. Wont be huge uptake but there will be some for sure.

Ronzar

peacenote wrote: »

Was thinking about this, and have some more comments.

I believe that part of what is fueling this debate is the fact that I have heard, throughout my years of playing MMOs, "p2w" references used interchangeably with "cosmetic only items." I don't mean in ESO, necessarily, but in general.

"Cosmetic only" options sold via microtransactions better translate to the MMO genre. What that means is players using real money to purchase in-game items will have no game play advantage. I would wager a guess that most people are pretty comfortable with MMOs using cosmetic items to make money that helps deliver content we all enjoy. Some examples:

• Special Mounts
• Special Pets
• Costumes
• Name Changes
• Appearance Changes

If someone wants to pay $40 for a red, white, and blue horse, it hurts no one (except for maybe people who are serious about immersion). As long as the horse doesn't run faster, or can carry more items, or is accessible WAYYYYYY earlier than the in-game method of obtaining a comparable mount... we all win, right?

There are also items that count as "additional functionality" but are (almost) universally accepted as an OK way for MMOs to make additional revenue, even with a subscription:

• Race/Class/Alliance Change
• Additional Account Slots
• Major Additions to the Game (Expansions, Chapters, Etc.)

But **then** we have items that go beyond "cosmetic" and start seeping into the "quality of life" category. Some examples (including ESO specific):

• Banker/Merchant Assistant
• Riding Lessons
• XP Pots/Scrolls
• Research Scrolls
• Additional Storage

Basically, many different ways to bypass time sinks built into the game. NOW we have a debate! Are these items "p2w?"

I think the answer really depends on how litigious you are. MMOs are designed to be a grind. There literally is no winning. It is THE POINT OF THE WHOLE GENRE. You never "win"... there is always more worlds to conquer, and people to save. (Or possibly murder.) And ZOS, with its "play the way you want" slogan, endorsed this idea indirectly even further.

Let's take PvP for a minute. Really, truly, what is winning? Staying alive against another character? Taking a resource? Winning a campaign? Becoming emperor? Becoming emperor and never losing the title? Finishing every single PvP achievement?

Let's take PvE. Do I win if I hit max level (also a consideration for PvP)? What if I finish the main quest story? What if I successfully finish a dungeon? What if I successfully finish ALL the dungeons? What if I do all the achievements possible, but then start another character?

If the currency in an MMO is time, because an MMO is a never-ending staircase of content, and p2w means "when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods" ... doesn't any reduction in grind do this, by that definition? If I have no way to reduce the time it takes me to do something except by a Crown Store purchase.... sorry, but you're paying real money for an in-game advantage.

But I don't want to get into a debate into what p2w means. Let's just keep going for a minute.

If ESO had been released with XP Pots and Scrolls, Riding Lessons, and Additional Storage to purchase, people would have been SOOOO crying p2w! But a funny thing happens with MMOs. The most important thing you need is a community. You need people to play with. Everyone stops playing, and the game is dead. We all lose.

So, at a certain point in the timeline of an MMO, those "quality of life" items suddenly become ways for our new friends to tackle new content with us. It's a way for people to not get overwhelmed by the grind and give up before they get started. There is a subtle line between handing new players things that the veterans "fought for" and helping new players "catch up quickly" so they can help keep the community vibrant.

Therefore, my point is, maybe we need a new term. I don't care what "p2w" really means. If research scrolls aren't technically "p2w" but they kill the game... does it matter? On the other hand, I don't care that new players might get some advantages that I don't so that there are new people in the community to replace the people that quit. I can't run a trial by myself.

"Cosmetic only" is the safest way an MMO can do microtransactions and escape criticism. But, it might not even be best for the game. Really, what we should care about, as a community, is if the items in the Crown Store help or hurt the game overall. Forget about "fair" or "win conditions" or a "statistical advantage." We're all in this together.

This is why my barometer has always been: Does this idea increase community engagement or negatively impact the economy? Will it widen the gap between veterans and newbies, or simply help some people catch up? Does it directly compete with how some players make in game currency? Does its use by others reduce my effectiveness if I can't afford the item? Does the idea fit nicely into the lore and core mechanics of the game, or was it obviously implemented to gouge players without apparent consideration for overall player base experience?

In my opinion, based on this premise, I think non-Crown Store exclusive motifs and research scrolls should go. They de-value crafters. Transmutation should never have been tied to known traits, or it should have been made so crafters can re-trait your gear for you. I also think outfit tokens should go as long as we are charged gold to use motifs we already learned in the outfit system. Finally, I think furniture that can also be crafted should be greatly limited, removed from the Crown Store, or cost way MORE than Crown Store exclusives to encourage people to consider crafting. At this point in the game's timeline, XP scrolls and pots, and clearly inferior food, drink, and poison items, should stay. Riding lessons should stay but an option to pay more to accelerate horse learning for exorbitant amounts of gold should be added.

Other than that, I think ZOS has done a really nice job balancing the Crown Store, ESO+, and in-game-for-gold options. It is only been very recently that some ideas seem to be skirting the line, and veering from consistent design logic. Let's hope that doesn't continue.

You make some good points. In an MMO there is no win other than what the individual counts as winning. The only way you win is by completing all goals you set for yourself within the game. Milage will vary. To this end ZoS will do what they think is best for them and the players. They, as with any other developer (especially MMO developers), cannot please everyone.

Facefister

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

Ronzar

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

How is skipping research time (etc) winning? I won't feel like I won spending that much real world cash on getting a trait done in a smaller time frame. Again, that is your opinion because that might be what is important to you in the game. But to many other people it doesn't even register on the scale. Every MMO (that I have heard of at least) has systems in place that offers benefits to paid subscribers/ people who spend extra cash on their products. It's the way of games in this genre.

Facefister

Ronzar wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

How is skipping research time (etc) winning? I won't feel like I won spending that much real world cash on getting a trait done in a smaller time frame. Again, that is your opinion because that might be what is important to you in the game. But to many other people it doesn't even register on the scale. Every MMO (that I have heard of at least) has systems in place that offers benefits to paid subscribers/ people who spend extra cash on their products. It's the way of games in this genre.

How is it not? You skip 15 days, which other people have to wait it out. It doesn't matter what the product is, you skip more than two weeks of playtime. Skipping, or buying shortcuts, are p2w. People should stop trying to define p2w with direct confrontration with other players. Besides, only because the "other MMOs" do it doesn't mean that isn't p2w.

Ronzar

Facefister wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

How is skipping research time (etc) winning? I won't feel like I won spending that much real world cash on getting a trait done in a smaller time frame. Again, that is your opinion because that might be what is important to you in the game. But to many other people it doesn't even register on the scale. Every MMO (that I have heard of at least) has systems in place that offers benefits to paid subscribers/ people who spend extra cash on their products. It's the way of games in this genre.

How is it not? You skip 15 days, which other people have to wait it out. It doesn't matter what the product is, you skip more than two weeks of playtime. Skipping, or buying shortcuts, are p2w. People should stop trying to define p2w with direct confrontration with other players. Besides, only because the "other MMOs" do it doesn't mean that isn't p2w.

I'm not looking to get into a fight over this issue, however the way I see it, it is set and forget. You are not skipping playtime, as it happens in the background with no managing. They are not selling "Skip 5 Levels" scrolls or "Skip the Theives Guild Questline" scrolls or "Here is a skill line you can only get here" scrolls, etc. You set a research, or train a mount, and then just wait. All the while enjoying the rest of the games content like everyone else.

I understand we will not agree on the issue, and that's okay I hope you can still enjoying the game despite any flaw it may have. You all have a good day, and keep gaming!

srfrogg23

Facefister wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

How is skipping research time (etc) winning? I won't feel like I won spending that much real world cash on getting a trait done in a smaller time frame. Again, that is your opinion because that might be what is important to you in the game. But to many other people it doesn't even register on the scale. Every MMO (that I have heard of at least) has systems in place that offers benefits to paid subscribers/ people who spend extra cash on their products. It's the way of games in this genre.

How is it not? You skip 15 days, which other people have to wait it out. It doesn't matter what the product is, you skip more than two weeks of playtime. Skipping, or buying shortcuts, are p2w. People should stop trying to define p2w with direct confrontration with other players. Besides, only because the "other MMOs" do it doesn't mean that isn't p2w.

People question it because “p2w” is a hollow, meaningless assertion when it’s used incorrectly. It’s tantamount to The Boy Who Cried Wolf.

If you can’t define what is actually being “won”, then you’re using it incorrectly. If you can’t define how people are getting a competitive advantage that ensures they will win solely because they spent money, then there is no “win” in p2w.

starkerealm

Facefister wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

How is skipping research time (etc) winning? I won't feel like I won spending that much real world cash on getting a trait done in a smaller time frame. Again, that is your opinion because that might be what is important to you in the game. But to many other people it doesn't even register on the scale. Every MMO (that I have heard of at least) has systems in place that offers benefits to paid subscribers/ people who spend extra cash on their products. It's the way of games in this genre.

How is it not? You skip 15 days, which other people have to wait it out. It doesn't matter what the product is, you skip more than two weeks of playtime. Skipping, or buying shortcuts, are p2w. People should stop trying to define p2w with direct confrontration with other players. Besides, only because the "other MMOs" do it doesn't mean that isn't p2w.

Mostly, the research scrolls aren't simply because you can get the resulting gear from other crafters.

That's the big thing here. If the game was new, and 9 trait crafters didn't exist, then this would be a major red flag, but as is, there are a bunch of people who got to that legitimately.

The only real argument I've seen is that it makes master writs easier to clear, which in turn offers up their own perks, but those are almost all cosmetic, or something you can buy and sell. You can make more money (theoretically), but if you've got the resources to clear multiple, high value, master writs, you probably were't hurting for cash in game.

So... I mean, there are P2W arguments to be had, but this is a pretty weak one.

Now, if you want to say the Imperial race is P2W... you might have a case there. Somewhat less so with the Warden, but, still, credible accusations can be made.

Sky_WK

This has nothing to do with pay to win. Simply pay to progress.

The only possible way I see that this could directly affect gameplay in "pay2win" fashion is if you are in need of a transmute for a specific trait (say nirn on a pvp weapon) and you need to wait 15 days for that specific trait to be unlocked, you refuse to buy crowns and end up getting killed by someone who needed the same item as you and bought the crowns and transmuted it.

Here's the kicker.... Make a new toon and research your nirn sword or whatever on him, takes 5 hours and transmutation is possible before the skill line is even unlocked. Costs ya 15k gold (PC NA) which isn't bad at all. Be smarter than the game.

Sidenote - I hate all this progression boosts via microtransactions ***. Hell I hate all forms of everything outside of a regular $60 video game retail price. I think it's an absolute scam, but they have to keep the servers up and support the devs head-in-ass habits somehow, I would rather some *** blow 5k crowns on a scroll to get something 14.6 days slower than me than the servers be shutdown cause $60/sale doesn't go too far anymore.

starkerealm

Sky_WK wrote: »

Here's the kicker.... Make a new toon and research your nirn sword or whatever on him, takes 5 hours and transmutation is possible before the skill line is even unlocked. Costs ya 15k gold (PC NA) which isn't bad at all. Be smarter than the game.

Six hours, but, yeah. Also, fun trivia, back in the day when Nirn first got added to the game, this is exactly what people were doing to start turning out nirn pieces for research quickly. They'd get the drop, research it on an alt, then start crafting and selling those pieces less than a day later, while everyone else was staring down the barrel of a 30 day research timer.

exeeter702

Kova wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.

For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.

Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.

The "win" in p2w does not refer and has never reffered to self imposed personal goals. It refers to the win conditions specifically established by developers of the game of which insentive is established or performing better in player opposition If you put stock into collecting non combat pets as your personal end game goal, having exclusive pets on the cash shop does not become pay to win.

Only when you are able to spend money on a statistical advantage that is entriely impossible to aquire via gameplay does a game encroach pay to win territory.

A pretty tautological way of saying "it's subjective" which doesn't invalidate my point in the slightest bit because, and this is important, the "win conditions" were not stated by either you or the developers. Without this information, we pragmatically can refer to such items as pay to win OR admit that if there is no such condition stated then nothing that can and ever will be done is to be considered pay to win.

So unless we have a good source for the win condition, my point still stands that this entire argument is full of ridiculous, aesthetically pleasing platitudes in which the only purpose of is to fill incessant conversation between those with the ability to benifit from the inclusion of cash shops, and those who don't have such ability.

No sorry. P2w literally means when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods.

Earning a victory in a bg match, cyro campaign, or in a pve enounter of any calibur are the established win conditions since player progression and player ability directly effect the outome based entirely around incentives put in place by the devs at this games very core.

I couldnt care less about those with particular feelings on a cash shop. But throwing around p2w inaccurately triggers me. It is fundementally impossible for purely cosmetic items or items that shorten a given grind time to be p2w.

See, I can completely agree with that standpoint. So now, using that same line of logic, I will mention the Warden class. We have clear, empirical data that shows that a player is able to build numerical values that give said player a statistical advantage that no other class can attain. In order to use the Warden class, a player must purchase the Morrowind chapter.

Does this meet the qualifications you've set?

No because warden on top of everything exclusive to morrowind is not inherently desingned to be tuned higher than what is obtainable elsewhere. This is a terrible attempt at an example if im being honest.

Warden is not objectively, numerically advantaged by developer intention and thus provides no benefit to players spending money vs those that dont. Even id warden came out of the gates as a gross massively overtuned class that rendered other classes obsolete due to shear strength, it still wouldnt be pay to win simply because developer oversight has nothing to do with pay to win practices but then you start creeping into symantics and cynisism which id rather not tread here.

Facefister wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

How is skipping research time (etc) winning? I won't feel like I won spending that much real world cash on getting a trait done in a smaller time frame. Again, that is your opinion because that might be what is important to you in the game. But to many other people it doesn't even register on the scale. Every MMO (that I have heard of at least) has systems in place that offers benefits to paid subscribers/ people who spend extra cash on their products. It's the way of games in this genre.

How is it not? You skip 15 days, which other people have to wait it out. It doesn't matter what the product is, you skip more than two weeks of playtime. Skipping, or buying shortcuts, are p2w. People should stop trying to define p2w with direct confrontration with other players. Besides, only because the "other MMOs" do it doesn't mean that isn't p2w.

Its not because of what p2w literally means rather then what a post league of legends generation of online gamers decided to make of the term what they wanted not knowing anything of the time where free to play games were niche and microtransacrions were not industry standards.

P2w in its proper actual implementation is terrible and to my knowledge i dont know of any existing games that actual do such a thing outside of the asian markets, particualry china and south korea (nc soft was notorious for publishing p2w games in the early 2000s).

P2w used improperly, ie items for shortcutting grind times, purchasing or renting equivalent power upgrades of those obtainable via gameplay are *** practices in their own right, but just because of that negativity, it does not magically make them pay to win.

P2w is about as open to interpretation as the color of the sky or wether or not the sun is in fact hot.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN

Not P2W. Moving on

starkerealm

exeeter702 wrote: »

P2w in its proper actual implementation is terrible and to my knowledge i dont know of any existing games that actual do such a thing outside of the asian markets, particualry china and south korea (nc soft was notorious for publishing p2w games in the early 2000s).

Most EA titles with random loot boxes, that simultaneously provide direct statistical boosts. Battlefront 2 for example. Any MMO from Cryptic in the past 10 years, though that's a bit of an edge case, because they were bought out by Perfect World International, and that is an Asian F2P publisher. Funcom's dipped their feet in the pool a few times.

JKorr

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

Still waiting for someone to explain what you win when you skip research time on a crafting character......

buying ubersuperoneshoteverybossinthegame weapon and ubersupergodmodearmor with real money = p2w

Skipping waiting time researching traits so you can make NOT the bis gear.....not so much, really.

My two original early release characters with every craft maxed crafters still haven't been declared emperor....No automatic bestowing Maelstrom titles....No finding Maelstrom weapons in the mail.... hmm....maybe if buying research scrolls to shorten research time is pay to win, if I buy them for my new [bought new character slot] character on this account.....Emperor costume on its way!!!!! [/sarcasm]

jedtb16_ESO

JKorr wrote: »

Facefister wrote: »

skipping stuff with real money = p2w

Still waiting for someone to explain what you win when you skip research time on a crafting character......

buying ubersuperoneshoteverybossinthegame weapon and ubersupergodmodearmor with real money = p2w

Skipping waiting time researching traits so you can make NOT the bis gear.....not so much, really.

My two original early release characters with every craft maxed crafters still haven't been declared emperor....No automatic bestowing Maelstrom titles....No finding Maelstrom weapons in the mail.... hmm....maybe if buying research scrolls to shorten research time is pay to win, if I buy them for my new [bought new character slot] character on this account.....Emperor costume on its way!!!!! [/sarcasm]

hey, me too.

asked several times and none of the p2w people have come back with a cogent answer.

why is that?

exeeter702

starkerealm wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

P2w in its proper actual implementation is terrible and to my knowledge i dont know of any existing games that actual do such a thing outside of the asian markets, particualry china and south korea (nc soft was notorious for publishing p2w games in the early 2000s).

Most EA titles with random loot boxes, that simultaneously provide direct statistical boosts. Battlefront 2 for example. Any MMO from Cryptic in the past 10 years, though that's a bit of an edge case, because they were bought out by Perfect World International, and that is an Asian F2P publisher. Funcom's dipped their feet in the pool a few times.

As gross as battlefront 2s practices were, the biggest offender was how long of a grind it was to unlock iconic characters, something around 40 hours ish. As far as the abilities and boosts in the loot boxes go, those bonuses were aquireable via in game, iirc the adverage grind time for a boost was about 4 days to a week. Again this is stepping into semantics as to where the line is drawn in grind times, but adding the random loot boxes (which is an entirely seperate can of worms) on top of how they were pitching micro trans was thr biggest offender. As much as i hate everything that game represents today, it was not p2w by defintion regardless of the fact that a day one money dumper could smash a player who hasnt spent a dime. Again paying to expedite the process of grinding toward a player power is very *** in a game like bf2, but it is not p2w so long as equitable power is ultimately obtainable in game.

Funcom never did it with AoC which at worst sold starter pvp sets, that were obtainable in game which is not p2w. They also never did it with tsw, most of the cash shop there was cosmetics and exp boosters. The aux wepons were never mandatory in there own right for any ens game content and thus the various "issues" were never p2w either. I did not play anarchy online so i cant comment.

My knowledge of cryptic only extends to STO and neverwinter both of which never practiced p2w models as far as im aware.

Jhalin

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

All it is going to do is take a little time off.

really? little? LOL

Yes, 2 weeks is not very long at all. And if someone is really dumb enough to drop $50 dollars on each scroll just to achieve the frankly meaningless title of "master crafter" faster (speaking as someone who is a handful of hours away from my final weapon 9th traits), then more power to them.

but, but.......there is no title.

I would say I wish there was a title, but then I think anyone who used it might end up being accosted by everyone under the sun to ask them to craft things.

ClockworkCityBugs

so, @ZOS_GinaBruno any positive news?

DieAlteHexe

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

so, @ZOS_GinaBruno any positive news?

I'm sure there is.

They positively are not going to change this.

jedtb16_ESO

Jhalin wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Ronzar wrote: »

All it is going to do is take a little time off.

really? little? LOL

Yes, 2 weeks is not very long at all. And if someone is really dumb enough to drop $50 dollars on each scroll just to achieve the frankly meaningless title of "master crafter" faster (speaking as someone who is a handful of hours away from my final weapon 9th traits), then more power to them.

but, but.......there is no title.

I would say I wish there was a title, but then I think anyone who used it might end up being accosted by everyone under the sun to ask them to craft things.

well, if you were sensible about it you just wouldn't show it. but it would be nice to have and it would give the p2w people in this thread something legitimate to complain about.

Dexxadude

Let the pay to progress begin. Didn't take long. Good shout spotting it.
Crafting can take MONTHS, now you can pay your way to finishing it right NOW. Disgusting
The shop will never give an advantage they said, well there it is.

VaranisArano

Dexxadude wrote: »

Let the pay to progress begin. Didn't take long. Good shout spotting it.
Crafting can take MONTHS, now you can pay your way to finishing it right NOW. Disgusting
The shop will never give an advantage they said, well there it is.

What advantage do I get? With maxed research, I can craft and transmute everything.

Just a reminder that without maxed research I can still:

• Hire a 9-trait crafter to make me any gear in the game
• Learn a desired trait on an alt in 6 hours so I can transmute items to that trait