"It will always be items worse than what you can craft" №2

Anotherone773

Narvuntien wrote: »

Don't want them... don't buy them.

In game stores are excellent ways to solve the gamers paradox.

Gamers paradox: When you are young (or unemployed) you have lots of time to play games but no money to buy games... then you get a job and you have plenty of money but no time to play games.

So players with money and no time can subsidises players with lots of time and no money and everyone benefits from having people to play with.

Game time saving products in store are an excellent way to use an in game store... for example having the merchant and banker.

There is a danger of course, pay to win occurs when game time becomes devalued, such that buying things is simply better than bothering to play the game. At which point no one plays (only buys) and the games population collapses.

We have not reached that stage we are fine.

I love Eve Online's solution to this. I can buy a 30 day sub( plex) and sell it in game for in game currency. If i dont have a lot a time to grind for currency( which is heavily needed in Eve since losses are real items and currency and not just "i died, respawn"), i can just buy my currency using this method. So i can spend my time in game doing what i want instead of grinding.

Meanwhile, that person that has a lot of time on their hands and little real money can grind all day in game to get what they need. They can then use some of the currency they made to buy my plex and thus pay for their subscription. It is a great relationship.

I can make $15 far far faster than i can make the value of the $15 in the game but dont have the hours and hours of free time needed to play for free. And they have time to make the amount of currency required to play for free. So it benefits both of us. They get to play without paying a sub and i get to play without having to spend all my time grinding. CCP( the developer of Eve) makes more money, I am a happy customer, and the free player is a happy customer. The system benefits everyone. It also puts a big damper on those shady third party currency sellers.

Vedder3475

This is ***. It's as though they are testing the waters... To see if we notice. If it's profitable. If no and yes... Begging gradual but endless short towards crown crate exclusives integral to in game success. Pay to win.

DieAlteHexe

Vedder3475 wrote: »

This is ***. It's as though they are testing the waters... To see if we notice. If it's profitable. If no and yes... Begging gradual but endless short towards crown crate exclusives integral to in game success. Pay to win.

As much scrutiny as they are held to, I doubt that this is a sneaky "see if they notice" move. Plus it's not even Pay to Win.

It's a crafting passive on steroids.

JKorr

TarrNokk wrote: »

I don't see any need in those scrolls as research is an aspect of the game we PLAY.
If you people don't like to PLAY the game in all aspects then you can't participate in all aspects.
I think it's bad enough that people can buy such things in crown store for real$.
P2W kills the game.

hmm....get item that has a trait I still need to research...go to any appropriate crafting station...E to use it....Mouse over to the icons and click on the "research" one.. click on the item I want to research...click on ok...hit alt to exit.

I played the "research" game. Not really seeing the issue with the scrolls, to be honest. If the player had to do more active things to research, then perhaps, yes, it would be bypassing playing the game. Before you start, I have two 9 trait crafters, both made before any scrolls showed up in the game.

Having a 9 trait crafter doesn't "win" anything. It doesn't even make the rng gremlins like you more. There may be an outside chance someone might actually be willing to pay you to make gear, but I wouldn't count on it. If someone wants to craft for themselves, and want to shorten the time it takes to do all the research, more power to them.

Fleshreaper

I don't support this and will not support this. I think research timers are fine the way they are. I hope ZOS doesn't cave to the give it to me now, crowd. This is a convenience item, plain and simple. In NO way does this give others an advantage over other players. So, what that you can't personally craft 9 trait gear yet. You can have other players make the gear for you. Nine time out of 10, if you provide the mats, someone will make the gear for free for you. If ZoS listens to the give it to me now crowd they will hinder they product because they will get what they want and then move on. You want it now, pay for it. ZoS may lose you as a sub but they got your money from the crown store item. You got your got to have it now and they still get the money when you leave. Win, win.

JKorr

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

objectively saying, isn't Crown Store supposed to make one skip time or look better? i don't see the problem

and this is the pay to win point of view

Until I get a notice that my two 9 trait crafters have been crowned the new emperor, get maelstrom weapons, and monster shoulders/helms automatically I'm going to go with "the scrolls aren't pay to win".

randomkeyhits

Vedder3475 wrote: »

This is ***. It's as though they are testing the waters... To see if we notice. If it's profitable. If no and yes... Begging gradual but endless short towards crown crate exclusives integral to in game success. Pay to win.

Testing the waters was when they added the advance one day all research to the loot boxes for one season only. I guess everyone used them rather than convert to crowns showing them there was a market to be exploited. Took them out of the loot boxes and prepared the crown store versions.

No one has mentioned yet that the writ purchased ones have a 20 hour cool down, these have none so significantly different.

I'm not against it as its still purely cosmetic.

Typical of ZoS though, my main completes her very last research in about five hours time....

srfrogg23

Hrm... $40 or 45 writ vouchers...

SGT_Wolfe101st

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

I didn't go in game to the guy and check, but I thought the writ voucher dude sold something like this?

only 1 day scrolls Rollis Hlaalu have
not 7 or 15 like in Rip-Off Store

Not only that, the WV ones are for 1 day with a 20 hour cool down, these have no such limitation? Mmmm, I wonder why, oh that's right, Crown $tore, don't want anything hindering anyone from forking over cold hard cash.

ClockworkCityBugs

Vedder3475 wrote: »

This is ***. It's as though they are testing the waters... To see if we notice. If it's profitable. If no and yes... Begging gradual but endless short towards crown crate exclusives integral to in game success. Pay to win.

agreed
it unacceptable move and we need force and strike back

jedtb16_ESO

Narvuntien wrote: »

Don't want them... don't buy them.

In game stores are excellent ways to solve the gamers paradox.

Gamers paradox: When you are young (or unemployed) you have lots of time to play games but no money to buy games... then you get a job and you have plenty of money but no time to play games.

So players with money and no time can subsidises players with lots of time and no money and everyone benefits from having people to play with.

Game time saving products in store are an excellent way to use an in game store... for example having the merchant and banker.

There is a danger of course, pay to win occurs when game time becomes devalued, such that buying things is simply better than bothering to play the game. At which point no one plays (only buys) and the games population collapses.

We have not reached that stage we are fine.

.... and then you retire and have both time and money..... no paradox anymore.

josiahva

Just don't care, they are far too expensive to actually buy, so it doesn't matter unless you plan on playing the game for less than 6 months

DieAlteHexe

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Narvuntien wrote: »

Don't want them... don't buy them.

In game stores are excellent ways to solve the gamers paradox.

Gamers paradox: When you are young (or unemployed) you have lots of time to play games but no money to buy games... then you get a job and you have plenty of money but no time to play games.

So players with money and no time can subsidises players with lots of time and no money and everyone benefits from having people to play with.

Game time saving products in store are an excellent way to use an in game store... for example having the merchant and banker.

There is a danger of course, pay to win occurs when game time becomes devalued, such that buying things is simply better than bothering to play the game. At which point no one plays (only buys) and the games population collapses.

We have not reached that stage we are fine.

.... and then you retire and have both time and money..... no paradox anymore.

^^^^ That. And it is blissful.

ol_BANK_lo

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

i think community need to gather once more and hit hard and show a flow of pure anger to ZOS again, to solve this issue and force them to act

back in a days we raise a huge cry when they added Grand Crown exp scrolls in game
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/292748/it-will-always-be-items-worse-than-what-you-can-craft-topic/p1

as a result of 15 page thread, less than in a month ZOS added Aetherial Ambrosia with recipes

right now similar situation took place, but i think people just forgot, become lazy and too forgiving?

@ZOS_GinaBruno i must to ask you now, and it will be a huge voice from all community

WHERE is ingame version of this scrolls? I hope you not forgot to add them to Rollis Hlaalu?
Any plans to add them to the game later?




let the mortal combat begin

This is a stupid thread. The cost of the scrolls are asinine, but that's in the eye of the beholder. There are many things I don't like in this game, but I am not flowing anger at ZOS for this one. Pick better fights.

magictucktuck

I agree they should be craftable for an insane amount or perfect roe or something but it’s not like potions or anything in which I think that comment was towards. Since potions and food are combat related. You can’t get a better parse or do better in pvp from speeding up research. You can buy your subpar gear from a friend if need be

badmojo

Its sad how many people are not just okay with paying to win, but they will argue technicalities to try and let ZOS off the hook for it.

Seems like a lack of objectiveness coming from people who already have all the traits researched.

VaranisArano

badmojo wrote: »

Its sad how many people are not just okay with paying to win, but they will argue technicalities to try and let ZOS off the hook for it.

Seems like a lack of objectiveness coming from people who already have all the traits researched.

I'm curious. What did I win when I maxed out research?

srfrogg23

badmojo wrote: »

Its sad how many people are not just okay with paying to win, but they will argue technicalities to try and let ZOS off the hook for it.

Seems like a lack of objectiveness coming from people who already have all the traits researched.

Nobody is ok with P2W, but not everything involving money is automatically “P2W”. Take this thread for example:

What are you winning? Quicker trait research. Then what? You’ll have the same traits as any other crafter that’s been playing for the last 2-3 years.

Not winning - just playing catch-up.

Also, you can do this easily in the game with 45 vouchers. 1 day of research is 3 writ vouchers. Get 15 days of research for 45 vouchers and you just saved yourself $40. Or you can just wait, have patience, and not spend the money or the vouchers (like the rest of us did before any of this was added to the game).

Not P2W. Not even close.

ClockworkCityBugs

imagine if its game launch
and some crafted sets is really good

so, its clearly p2w then
because ppl with ca$h will wear this crafted sets much faster and will win, until other guys will research by regular speed

DieAlteHexe

badmojo wrote: »

Its sad how many people are not just okay with paying to win, but they will argue technicalities to try and let ZOS off the hook for it.

Seems like a lack of objectiveness coming from people who already have all the traits researched.

I don't have them all researched, still have a ways to go to get to that and I think this is not an issue. If it is, why isn't everyone raising hell about the crafting passive that lowers research time?

That said, no way I'd pay those prices, I'm not in that big a rip.

jedtb16_ESO

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

imagine if its game launch
and some crafted sets is really good

so, its clearly p2w then
because ppl with ca$h will wear this crafted sets much faster and will win, until other guys will research by regular speed

no..... it isn't game launch, it's nearly four years down the line.

explain how it is pay to win now.

VaranisArano

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

imagine if its game launch
and some crafted sets is really good

so, its clearly p2w then
because ppl with ca$h will wear this crafted sets much faster and will win, until other guys will research by regular speed

Its not game launch. There are tons of 9-trait crafters. Some of them may even be willing to craft for players who will pay them. You can hire a crafter to make you any gear you want available in-game for in-game currency.

Having research maxed lets you craft those sets. It says nothing about whether or not you can wear them. I can wear 9-trait gear on my level 3 character fresh off the Morrowind slave ship if that's what I want to do.

pod88kk

It's pay to win in my opinion, I had to wait 18 months to get a master crafter

DieAlteHexe

pod88kk wrote: »

It's pay to win in my opinion, I had to wait 18 months to get a master crafter

I still don't have it and I'm not grousing about it either. I'll get it in time but that's the thing, I have a lot of time. Others don't. Having an MC isn't "winning", it's just another set of skills that may or may not benefit.

JKorr

badmojo wrote: »

Its sad how many people are not just okay with paying to win, but they will argue technicalities to try and let ZOS off the hook for it.

Seems like a lack of objectiveness coming from people who already have all the traits researched.

I'm still waiting to be emperor with the two 9 trait crafters I have. I'd love the emperor's outfit. Oh, and a maelstrom weapon. Or two. Possibly one of the dropped sets you don't get in pve. I mean, I "won", right? Finished the research twice over?

Or did I just do a lot of clicking on menus, collecting items with traits, and waiting until the timer ran down? Someone else willing to spend the money to buy scrolls to shorten the time it takes doesn't affect me in any way. I don't see how it could be more "objective".

Stopnaggin

Anyone else find the irony here. All those just put it in the crown store people and not in crates, now arent happy about the prices. Its not pay to win, not even close. The game is well established, 9 trait crafters are everywhere. The mount upgrade scrolls are closer to one than these. Yes I did it the long way, not the hard way. Nothing hard about researching, its not even time consuming. You set it and forget it. What's so hard about hitting a few buttons to start researching anyway?

If you want the convenience of getting it faster than you pay the price. There is no win involved here. You aren't able to craft anything new, you want TBS I can craft it for you for the mats. So where's the win? Did I miss some super secret set that can only be crafted if you get all your research done faster? Can they craft super uber weapons? There is no advantage over someone else. Its not p2w.

Kodrac

It's way to catch up since the game's been out a few years now. Not that slippery of a slope.

JKorr

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

imagine if its game launch
and some crafted sets is really good

so, its clearly p2w then
because ppl with ca$h will wear this crafted sets much faster and will win, until other guys will research by regular speed

I'm still waiting to find out how to "win". I craft for myself and my guilds. I've made 9 trait sets like julianos and morkuldin's for level 10s. Besides maybe not dying as fast as they would if they kept the coldharbor jammies on and the default weapon, they don't really "win" anything. They still have to play the game. Level 10 with good gear going to pvp the first time is really, really not going to "win" much of anything. People who want to craft still have to level the skills. Getting the research done faster really doesn't mean much.

Hate to tell you, but you can make a few decent sets with only two traits researched. The first two traits take only a few hours. No one would bother with a scroll for that. Ashen Grip, Death's Wind, Night's Silence.....

Datthaw

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

objectively saying, isn't Crown Store supposed to make one skip time or look better? i don't see the problem

and this is the pay to win point of view

no it isn't.....

what do you win?

there is no title.

You win because you don't have to wait months....literally...months to level up your crafting traits. It's spoon feeding those players who in fact will pay to win. We might as well be able to pay to get lvl 50, and while we're at it you can buy cp points from crown store 1$ a point. Hell let's not stop there, you can buy vma and master weapons for 50$ a piece. Who need to run trials, you can now purchase gear in the crown store.

DieAlteHexe

Datthaw wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

objectively saying, isn't Crown Store supposed to make one skip time or look better? i don't see the problem

and this is the pay to win point of view

no it isn't.....

what do you win?

there is no title.

You win because you don't have to wait months....literally...months to level up your crafting traits. It's spoon feeding those players who in fact will pay to win. We might as well be able to pay to get lvl 50, and while we're at it you can buy cp points from crown store 1$ a point. Hell let's not stop there, you can buy vma and master weapons for 50$ a piece. Who need to run trials, you can now purchase gear in the crown store.

5000 crowns each. How many do you think the average player is going to buy to "win"?

So I don't think there will be any massive speed increase here unless some very, very wealthy souls are in a rip. I see this as something someone might use to get that last, reallllly long research bit done. It's hardly something people are going to buy in mass quantity and even is they do, it's not winning anything. It is speeding it up but that's not a "win". That's impatience and being charged for it.