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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
"It will always be items worse than what you can craft" №2
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »WakeYourGhost wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »
You win being a 9-trait crafter faster?
But 9 trait sets are horrible. Actually, so are 7 and 8 trait sets for most content. This system seems to follow the "pay to lose" model. It's the new version of the broom and bucket
TBS and Eternal Hunt aren't completely worthless. Though, the latter is kinda niche, and the former now loses out to Hundings or Julianos, but it's still usable, especially if you already ran TBS. At Seven, Clever Alchemist used to be a must have for gank builds, though that has been nerfed significantly, since you can no longer pre-buff out of combat.'
In general, you're right, though. The 7+ trait sets tend to be either underwhelming, or outright bad. There's a few that should have real utility (Pelinal's Aptitude, Armor Master, Spectre's Eye), but just don't deliver for one reason or another.0 -
Kova✭✭✭✭✭These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.
For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.
Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.EP Sorc: Aydinn
AD Stamplar: Verdant`Knight
DC Stamblade: Apple`Punch
EP Stam Sorc: Kós
AD DragonKnight: Transmigrant
EP NIghtblade: Aydinn1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
No it isnt. Circumventing grind / wait times is in no way pay to win, unless we are talking about 09ers who dont understand what the term actually implies and how it came to be.
You dont get to slap it onto anything you dont like regarding cash shop purchases.1 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh dang, that's an extremely good point. As research scroll affect everything from crafting items to cosmetic dyes I think it's important to hold these scrolls to the same standard as other cash shop items and have such a cooldownless 15-day research scroll available through in-game methods.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.
For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.
Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.
The "win" in p2w does not refer and has never reffered to self imposed personal goals. It refers to the win conditions specifically established by developers of the game of which insentive is established or performing better in player opposition. If you put stock into collecting non combat pets as your personal end game goal, having exclusive pets on the cash shop does not become pay to win.
Even if crafted sets were indisputably bis without question, while scummy, these research boosts are not pay to win for the simple fact that said crafted sets are obtainable purely via in game methods, full stop. Expediting a grind time via real money, leaves a sour taste in alot of peoples mouths for sure, but that does not make it pay to win.
Only when you are able to spend money on a statistical advantage that is entriely impossible to aquire via gameplay does a game encroach pay to win territory.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.
So, uh, again, what exactly do I win by having maxed research?
I can craft and transmute everything. Woot?
Just a reminder that without maxed research I can still:- Hire a 9-trait crafter to make me any gear in the game
- Learn a desired trait on an alt in 6 hours so I can transmute items to that trait
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.
So, uh, again, what exactly do I win by having maxed research?
I can craft and transmute everything. Woot?
Just a reminder that without maxed research I can still:- Hire a 9-trait crafter to make me any gear in the game
- Learn a desired trait on an alt in 6 hours so I can transmute items to that trait
It doesn't even really help with transmute as you can selectively research the best ones first and then start Transmutating immediately.
It really only helps people craft sets.
And it doesn't really bother me, I mean the actual buyer base has got to be small. If you haven't done the research it's like SUPER easy to find someone whom can make it for you2 -
Ronzar✭It seems to me most everyone agrees that having these on the crown store, and not in game, is not really an issue. Everyone has their own opinions, and a developer cannot please everyone. They added these to the crown store to fill that nich, and it doesn't hurt those people not using these items. As far as yelling at ZOS to change this, I don't see that many people supporting.1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It seems to me most everyone agrees that having these on the crown store, and not in game, is not really an issue. Everyone has their own opinions, and a developer cannot please everyone. They added these to the crown store to fill that nich, and it doesn't hurt those people not using these items. As far as yelling at ZOS to change this, I don't see that many people supporting.
At this point in the games lifespan it is ultimately inconsequential.0 -
badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Its a catch up mechanic?
Why no gold for crowns?
Why no champion points for crowns?
Why no PVP levels for crowns?
Why no undaunted levela for crowns?
Why no alliance points for crowns?
Why not just sell all gear for crowns?
I have played lots, I have all those things. Selling them for money would not make me lose anything, and the person buying them wouldnt exactly win anything by having them. But I still dont want to see ZOS adding them for cash. Just like I dont like seeing instant research, horse training and xp scrolls for sale. Its just my opinion on microstransactions in videogames. Give us better cosmetics if they need more cashflow...I am very willing to give this game more money for more cosmetics.
If people want to catch up... play more. There is a level cap, catching up is possible.
[DC/NA]1 -
Slick_007✭✭✭✭✭
✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
agreed
it unacceptable move and we need force and strike back
theres only one way you can do that. give me your stuff as you leave1 -
ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
agreed
it unacceptable move and we need force and strike back
theres only one way you can do that. give me your stuff as you leave
but i wont leave
i want ingame version of research scrolls 7 and 15 days1 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »... It doesn't even really help with transmute as you can selectively research the best ones first and then start Transmutating immediately. ...
I did this thing, for a long time, on all of my active characters, where I would research gear as it dropped. Never once did I imagine that I could be better off having made no headway into researching traits than slowly working through them. So, yes, the scrolls give an advantage with transmute.
Also, I've read that the amount of items researched can factor into writs, which is a way to access various items and/or make in-gold currency. So, indirectly, the research scrolls could contribute towards one's ability to buy things in game.... which is, at least a little bit, pay to win? Maybe a stretch, but something to consider.
One finally thought on this, overall. Just because there aren't a lot of vocal objectors in this thread doesn't necessarily mean that "most everyone agrees" that these items being in the Crown Store isn't an issue. Honestly, it's probably just as much that there are only so many ways to say the same thing and express the same opinion. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, right? So at some point, many of us have expressed our feelings, hoped for the best, and either went back to playing or moved on to another game.
I myself have been pretty vocal about both a) being glad that the Crown Store can support the game and b) being disappointed when design decisions have been made that clearly were driven by a desire to bolster Crown Store purchases as a top priority over game design and, most specifically, ensuring that being a crafter continues to add value to the community:- Back in 2015, I posted my opinion on potions in the Crown Store vs. cosmetic items.
- More recently, I posted a long objection in the PTS area about how transmutation was implemented.
- I also posted several objections regarding the implementation of the outfit system, how it needlessly introduces outfit tokens, how there shouldn't be a cost to use core game systems, and how I believe we should use style mats for the outfit system.
It's been a long time so I may be remembering this wrong, but there was a lot of chatter about end-game raiding being ruined by the One Tamriel switch from BOE to BOP gear. However, quietly, it also dealt a big blow to crafting. I remember the moment it hit me that my friend and I had split out the crafts, but now we'd both have to do them if we wanted to gold out our monster helms, because there was no way my blacksmith friend could gold out my heavy helm before it became BOP. And let's not forget the change where your max level characters ALSO had to max out the crafting skill line to consistently get high level nodes, where before my main could go out and gather mats, braving the big, bad world, and pass them to my crafter who preferred the safety of town. P2W? Maybe, maybe not. But at the very least, we are seeing the death of the "crafter" identity. The game's model clearly wants each account to HAVE to go through THE ENTIRE GRIND, once, and then pay for the privilege of speeding it up. To soften the blow, almost everything was made "account-bound," not "character-bound." The immediate grind was reduced to mask that fact that we were all transitioned to a much longer term grind by being "encouraged" to master all content to get where we need to be (instead of working together with others in the community with different interests to trade our way there).
We can object, and object, and object, until we are blue in the face, or we can turn our efforts towards other game issues that are more likely to be addressed. Because this direction was chosen years ago, and, like it or hate it, it's way, way too late to turn back now.
Overall, I thoroughly enjoy playing this game. The developers have brought us lots of great changes over the years. Between BOP gear, the transmutation system, and the outfit system, though, crafters now have very little to offer to the community, and all players are pushed into crafter-like activities for cosmetic or gameplay advantages, and this change I do not like. However, let's not pretend that these research scrolls are the first indication of a major change in direction. They are simply another item in a long list of items and design choices that sacrificed crafting for a per-account revenue stream model. And if that revenue stream delivers to me new map areas, dungeons, trials, quests, and other content to explore and enjoy... I guess I can live with that.
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Ronzar✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
agreed
it unacceptable move and we need force and strike back
theres only one way you can do that. give me your stuff as you leave
but i wont leave
i want ingame version of research scrolls 7 and 15 days
But... Why? All it is going to do is take a little time off. Instead of spending the crazy gold it would take (what I assume it would take) to get those scrolls, why not just pay someone to craft the items you want at those research levels? Would take a lot less gold.1 -
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Ronzar✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
What is the rush? If they added a way to do that in game, that's fine and would make some people happy. I don't think the game is lacking in any real way because they don't. Again my opinion. I think peacenote has it right "...or we can turn our efforts towards other game issues that are more likely to be addressed."0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
Yes, 2 weeks is not very long at all. And if someone is really dumb enough to drop $50 dollars on each scroll just to achieve the frankly meaningless title of "master crafter" faster (speaking as someone who is a handful of hours away from my final weapon 9th traits), then more power to them.0 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭You want to see a pay to win game? Get on your phone, download game of war, play it for a month. Then you will understand the term pay to win.0 -
btw i didnt tell in first post its p2w
but other people think it is
and they are right1 -
badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anotherone773 wrote: »You want to see a pay to win game? Get on your phone, download game of war, play it for a month. Then you will understand the term pay to win.
Is a pickpocket not a criminal because mass murderers exist?[DC/NA]1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »and imagine if they will add 10th trait?
Then the people who want to craft will start the research on the 10th trait. :shrug: Crafting isn't an absolute necessity in the game.ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »btw i didnt tell in first post its p2w
but other people think it is
and they are right
Other people have their own opinions. Opinions are not facts; my opinion is that it is not. Other posters, and apparently you, have the opinion that it is. Neither personal opinion is "right".
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jedtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
Yes, 2 weeks is not very long at all. And if someone is really dumb enough to drop $50 dollars on each scroll just to achieve the frankly meaningless title of "master crafter" faster (speaking as someone who is a handful of hours away from my final weapon 9th traits), then more power to them.
but, but.......there is no title.0 -
Inarre✭✭✭✭✭
✭The in game version of all research scrolls is.... Doing your research!
I did it the old fashioned way took me over two years because I took a break from game. You know what I am not worried about it in the least. Eso implemented a quick catch up. In reality most people will craft for you for free in a guild so there's no reason to buy them anyway lol.
I'll start worrying when they start selling perfected asylum staffs in the crown store.1 -
Kova✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.
For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.
Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.
The "win" in p2w does not refer and has never reffered to self imposed personal goals. It refers to the win conditions specifically established by developers of the game of which insentive is established or performing better in player opposition If you put stock into collecting non combat pets as your personal end game goal, having exclusive pets on the cash shop does not become pay to win.
Only when you are able to spend money on a statistical advantage that is entriely impossible to aquire via gameplay does a game encroach pay to win territory.
A pretty tautological way of saying "it's subjective" which doesn't invalidate my point in the slightest bit because, and this is important, the "win conditions" were not stated by either you or the developers. Without this information, we pragmatically can refer to such items as pay to win OR admit that if there is no such condition stated then nothing that can and ever will be done is to be considered pay to win.
So unless we have a good source for the win condition, my point still stands that this entire argument is full of ridiculous, aesthetically pleasing platitudes in which the only purpose of is to fill incessant conversation between those with the ability to benifit from the inclusion of cash shops, and those who don't have such ability.EP Sorc: Aydinn
AD Stamplar: Verdant`Knight
DC Stamblade: Apple`Punch
EP Stam Sorc: Kós
AD DragonKnight: Transmigrant
EP NIghtblade: Aydinn1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »These p2w/cash shop threads never work out. People who want it don't care about the state of a game for the whole, and people who don't want it don't care about the games progression from a business standpoint.
For cash shop defenders, p2w will only be admitted when you can kill people with crowns because, for some reason, you can only win on leaderboards and pvp. If your goal is to be the richest, or best crafter, or best trade guild, then you can pay to win aaaaaalllll yoooouuu want.
Just like every other capital venture, the product is decided by how much and what the market will allow. Just relax and get the dragon mount when it inevitably comes out and watch the game burn with the rest of us.
The "win" in p2w does not refer and has never reffered to self imposed personal goals. It refers to the win conditions specifically established by developers of the game of which insentive is established or performing better in player opposition If you put stock into collecting non combat pets as your personal end game goal, having exclusive pets on the cash shop does not become pay to win.
Only when you are able to spend money on a statistical advantage that is entriely impossible to aquire via gameplay does a game encroach pay to win territory.
A pretty tautological way of saying "it's subjective" which doesn't invalidate my point in the slightest bit because, and this is important, the "win conditions" were not stated by either you or the developers. Without this information, we pragmatically can refer to such items as pay to win OR admit that if there is no such condition stated then nothing that can and ever will be done is to be considered pay to win.
So unless we have a good source for the win condition, my point still stands that this entire argument is full of ridiculous, aesthetically pleasing platitudes in which the only purpose of is to fill incessant conversation between those with the ability to benifit from the inclusion of cash shops, and those who don't have such ability.
No sorry. P2w literally means when a game offers a statistical advantage in player strength or performance via real money that is otherwise not obtainable via in game methods.
Earning a victory in a bg match, cyro campaign, or in a pve enounter of any calibur are the established win conditions since player progression and player ability directly effect the outome based entirely around incentives put in place by the devs at this games very core.
I couldnt care less about those with particular feelings on a cash shop. But throwing around p2w inaccurately triggers me. It is fundementally impossible for purely cosmetic items or items that shorten a given grind time to be p2w.4 -
Ronzar✭exeeter702 wrote: »It is fundementally impossible for purely cosmetic items or items that shorten a given grind time to be p2w.
^ Yes. This is exactly it. I understand if people are upset that there is no way to make these scrolls in game, but it is by no means p2w.2 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭jedtb16_ESO wrote: »ClockworkCityBugs wrote: »
Yes, 2 weeks is not very long at all. And if someone is really dumb enough to drop $50 dollars on each scroll just to achieve the frankly meaningless title of "master crafter" faster (speaking as someone who is a handful of hours away from my final weapon 9th traits), then more power to them.
but, but.......there is no title.
No, there isn't. Not "master crafter", at least. If you manage to research every trait at least once, you'll get the "Trait Master" achievement. Which will win you exactly nothing except the Moonstone White dye.. Doesn't matter how long it takes you to finish the research, so using the scrolls to shorten the time isn't "cheating" or "pay to win". Unless, of course, getting the Moonstone White dye means you win the game. Imo the "Unsurpassed Crafter" and "Librarian" when I finally got them meant more.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Achievements
You can get the "Master Crafter" achievement when you complete your first master writ. Then you can get "Master of Many Crafts" when you complete 25 master writs. Last one is "Unsurpassed Crafter" when you complete 100 master writs.
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