PvE, PvP & Nerfs

BohnT

Many PvP/ PvE players make the other playstyle responsible for nerfs or changes in the game.
Both share a good part to why the game is as it is right now. But the PvP side always gets more hate as their complaints are more frequent as they experience the imbalance everyday.

1. PvE imbalances =/= PvP imbalances

In PvE unalanced things are most of the time good for the players as they result in great dps, easy trial clears or generally easier combat.
One example is critical procs even with no rotation, no knowledge etc procs gave anyone good dps and made PvE extremely easy. The majority of the playerbase doesn't see this as a problem as they benefit from the imbalance.

The same procs were a huge problem in pvp however they made pvp unplayable and unfair, either you had luck with your procs and won or you hadn't and lost or you weren't using them and were at a huge disadvantage. This lead of course to a huge outrage on the forums with nerf requests.
However most people seem to forget that most PvP players wanted the sets to be changed in PvP only i.e burst converted to dots or procs unable to proc on players like a reversed Vicious death.

And here comes the problem ZoS saw both imbalances and decided to change it an a crappy way for both parts. They removed crits thus making them useless in pve for the most part but still keeping them too strong in PvP.

This change was a complete failed attempt by the Devs which could have been done better.

The next example sustain changes. These were a mix of the imbalances in both PvE and PvP again.
In PvE no one complained as endless sustain made it possible to run max damage builds and made all PvE content a joke, mechanics could be completely ignored due to insane dps etc.
==> Imbalance in PvE (as seen by Zos)

In PvP the endless sustain ment that fights with good players wouldn't end as no one could kill the other and even bad players had endless sustain with no issues. This lead to a problem where no one ever died which is a kinda bad thing in a game where killing is your best way to achieve a goal.
==> Imbalance seen by players and Zos

The PvP crowd complained on the forum while the PvE part didn't which leads to the misconception that PvP was solely responsible for the Morrowind nerfs.
This is wrong the Devs said multiple times that the sustain in the whole game was too easy and nerfed it (too far as most people think)

2. PvP Balance requests have a higher priority
When nerf posts of PvP player emerge there is always atleast one saying "stop destroying pve because of PvP"
The problem is highly unbalanced things already ruin PvP entirely as the enemies your fight always adapt to the best tactics to win fights. This makes pvp unplayable as you lose every fight against overperfoming things no matter what you do or the fights are decided by RNG which has nothing to do with PvP.

For PvE the equivalent to poisons, proc stacking etc would be that every boss in the game uses its one shots or strong mechanics with no available counterplay as soon as the fight starts.
For Example: Ozara pinning everyone to the floor, mantikora going into enrage and one shotting everyone, domihaus yelling as soon as he finished the last yell and so one.
What i want to say is imagine a PvE where you die as soon as you try do do something because it's broken

I know this post will generate lots of hate and controversy but please before you answer it think about my rant for atleast 5 min.

xbobx

has there been any metrics showing the percentage of players that pvp vs just pve?

I hate the pvp in this game, its so frustrating and unbalanced and i would think casual players would avoid it like the plague.

for me it was, get vigor and caltrops and get the hell out.

TequilaFire

Nvm

DieAlteHexe

TequilaFire wrote: »

On the flip side, PvE end game is so toxic it was get the set items I needed and get the hell out.

That's a first. Usually (aside from the "big raiding" guilds) in an MMO folks at cap are pretty laid back in the PvE "side". Now the raiders...nope. They are very, very serious and tend to be rather abrupt with those who cannot keep up.

technohic

DieAlteHexe wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

On the flip side, PvE end game is so toxic it was get the set items I needed and get the hell out.

That's a first. Usually (aside from the "big raiding" guilds) in an MMO folks at cap are pretty laid back in the PvE "side". Now the raiders...nope. They are very, very serious and tend to be rather abrupt with those who cannot keep up.

I think I pugged a pledge one time and I instantly started getting grief for having a 2 hander and this was for a non-DLC pledge. Luckily the healer commented on my behalf and everyone got through just fine but theres always someone whos going to complain if they see someone with non-optimal stuff in a PUG.

PvP on the other hand. If I join a PUG Group; people are glad to have some more numbers. The grief is not going to be pointed at a single player but rather the zergs it creates. Although I never have agreed with that. A large group of random PUGs strenght is rarely great. Usually it can be defeated by an average organized group of a third to half their size. A really good organized group can do it with less than 1/4th the numbers.

LordSemaj

This all comes down to ZOS being terrible at balancing. They've said before it would be too hard to balance PVE and PVP separately. Many people act like they don't believe them. Except look at the facts... they added CP to replace veteran ranks because veteran ranks would constantly shift stat requirements, forcing them to keep up with boss and mob balance because they couldn't just not give you better stats for harder content. Players wanted to keep getting stronger and that means slightly adjusting the content each time and reflecting that on gear pieces. Yet along comes CP as an alternative to the stat creep. Then One Tamriel normalizes everything. Some people see these as acts of convenience for the playerbase yet ultimately they made ZOS's job easier in terms of balancing content. Every time they bump up CP by 30 they're really only adjusting numbers by 1% at best, and it STILL ends up being a trial and error thing with nerfs every patch to hit the specs they didn't see coming. Which is also why some players avoid revealing their good builds, as soon as everyone knows about it, the thing gets nerfed into dust.

Then there's the fact that each patch ZOS nerfs things people weren't even complaining about. They don't look to the forum to nerf things, they use it to know what to look into. If it was nerfed, it was probably overperforming to begin with. Players by their nature are always trying to min-max, which literally means looking for the sets that overperform and using them. The best forum complaints can do is draw attention to these overperformers. It's no one's fault but ZOS and their incompetence.

Vapirko

xbobx wrote: »

has there been any metrics showing the percentage of players that pvp vs just pve?

I hate the pvp in this game, its so frustrating and unbalanced and i would think casual players would avoid it like the plague.

for me it was, get vigor and caltrops and get the hell out.

The truth is though, it just FEELS unbalanced because the learning curve is so damn steep. Once you start to get better you realize the classes themselves aren’t all that unbalanced, some people are just that much better. At least now this is the case.

To the OP though, thank you for putting this into an official post. You’re 100% right. I play both PvP and PvE. I began with PvE exclusively, and now PvP almost exclusively beyond farming for gear. From my experience balance changes are way more important in PvP and tend to throw things far more out of wack. I gotta say it feels like a lot of PvErs jump on the “PvP ruins all things” bandwagon without actually experiencing both sides too far beyond grabbing caltrops and vigor.

VaranisArano

The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Since PVP players whine louder and since trial/dungeon bosses can't come onto the forums to complain, PVE players tend to get blindsided when a PVE nerf comes out.

Maybe those trial and dungeon bosses should unionize.

OGLezard

LordSemaj wrote: »

This all comes down to ZOS being terrible at balancing. They've said before it would be too hard to balance PVE and PVP separately. Many people act like they don't believe them. Except look at the facts... they added CP to replace veteran ranks because veteran ranks would constantly shift stat requirements, forcing them to keep up with boss and mob balance because they couldn't just not give you better stats for harder content. Players wanted to keep getting stronger and that means slightly adjusting the content each time and reflecting that on gear pieces. Yet along comes CP as an alternative to the stat creep. Then One Tamriel normalizes everything. Some people see these as acts of convenience for the playerbase yet ultimately they made ZOS's job easier in terms of balancing content. Every time they bump up CP by 30 they're really only adjusting numbers by 1% at best, and it STILL ends up being a trial and error thing with nerfs every patch to hit the specs they didn't see coming. Which is also why some players avoid revealing their good builds, as soon as everyone knows about it, the thing gets nerfed into dust.

Then there's the fact that each patch ZOS nerfs things people weren't even complaining about. They don't look to the forum to nerf things, they use it to know what to look into. If it was nerfed, it was probably overperforming to begin with. Players by their nature are always trying to min-max, which literally means looking for the sets that overperform and using them. The best forum complaints can do is draw attention to these overperformers. It's no one's fault but ZOS and their incompetence.

Very well said

VaranisArano

Vapirko wrote: »

xbobx wrote: »

has there been any metrics showing the percentage of players that pvp vs just pve?

I hate the pvp in this game, its so frustrating and unbalanced and i would think casual players would avoid it like the plague.

for me it was, get vigor and caltrops and get the hell out.

The truth is though, it just FEELS unbalanced because the learning curve is so damn steep. Once you start to get better you realize the classes themselves aren’t all that unbalanced, some people are just that much better. At least now this is the case.

I agree with this. Saying that most of PVP balance issues are Learn 2 Play isn't very helpful advice to someone struggling, I realize, but PVP really does have a huge learning curve. Its not like going online, finding a PVE DPS build and practicing a rotation until you hit the desired DPS and then you start practicing with your trials guild. You have to learn your build, and then you have to learn the counters to everyone else' build and then you have to play against actual, unpredictable people of varying skill levels and some of them are going to be out of your league. Not because of gear or skills or class, but simply because they are that good at what they do.

But its a steep learning curve. I've been PVPing on a regular basis for slightly over a year now and I'm very aware that most of the problems I have in PVP are Learn 2 Play issues. When I lose, I'm pretty comfortable with saying it was my lack of skill or my opponent's far better skill.

Viscous119

So let me get this straight..you come on the forums and bash the PvE crowd because PvP is has imbalances? What's new? I have played many MMOs (since 1999) and I can tell you that NONE of them are able to balance PvE and PvP at the same time. The majority of the dollars coming into ESO subscriptions will always be people who mainly play PvE. There are a lot of PvP only MMOs out there that have very few issues on class balancing because the entire game is focused around PvP. The surprising fact is that those PvP MMOs don't do well in the financial area because there is no PvE in the game. If you want balanced PvP then you might want think about playing a PvP only MMO.

A_G_G_R_O

This is the truest post I ever have read. I ran a trials guild before they nerfed proc sets and sustain. Beating vMoL after sustain nerfs was so hard where as before we were drinking beers and beating multiple times a night shy of an hour each run with no wipes or maybe 1 if I messed up the back room. But that’s a problem. PvE hard content shouldn’t be a breeze, but PvE’rs blame pvp when in reality the devs knew the pve was out of alignment.