Powerlash & Searing Strike 3.3.3

  • usmcjdking
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    I think it's an interesting idea.

    Not particularly balanced - but a good idea. I'd probably slap a cost onto power lash if we're going to increase the methods of proccing it.

    But it would still have a 3 second cooldown.

    That’s perfectly reasonable for having only a small chance to proc unless the opponent is set off-balance.

    It would allow magDK to do better DPS in PvE and have slightly more magicka sustain, while also not making it too strong in PvP.

    There is nothing reasonable about having it be a free cast if the method of proccing it becomes extraordinarily easy. The entire point of it being a free cast is that powerlash will get it's cost elsewhere (talons/petrify). If you remove that then you simply do not have a balanced skill in a game where resource costs matter.

    I think the concept is good, just not fully flushed out.
    0331
    0602
  • FloppyTouch
    FloppyTouch
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    I agree mdk needs a little love if ur going to try and gut them again
  • joaaocaampos
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    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.

    But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.

    It depends what you think is favorable: „Bursty“ sustain or steady sustain. Or in other words: Getting a larger chunk of resource back once in a while or a much smaller amount for a stable time.

    There are situations when “bursty” sustain is better, most notably when you’re on the verge of running dry and the opponent is in execute range. Whether the formula is still a good one after Morrowind changes is up to debate, but in my opinion buffing Battle Roar should only be done in small increments if any. It just takes so little to become OP again.

    Edit for grammar
    Edited by Feanor on January 31, 2018 2:16PM
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.

    But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.

    Can you link me the video?


    My math on the subject:

    Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).

    If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
    125/3=41,666....

    With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
    46*125=5750

    So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
    5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen


    To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
    15% of 1840=276


    So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).

    106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
    4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.

    Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 2:20PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.

    But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.

    Battle roar is screwing itself basically cause it returns every resource. Channeled focus, siphoning etc only return one resource so they are better. Sucks, but it is what it is.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.

    But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.

    Can you link me the video?


    My math on the subject:

    Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).

    If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
    125/3=41,666....

    With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
    46*125=5750

    So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
    5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen


    To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
    15% of 1840=276


    So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).

    106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
    4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.

    Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..

    I would like to point out that Battle Roar has a significant opportunity cost attached to it that isn't and cannot be represented by numbers. You indicate that Battle Roar can net the equivalent of 276 magicka recovery, but that assumes ultimate use on cooldown. In other words, to achieve 276 magicka recovery from Battle Roar, I need to utilize my ultimate the instant it becomes available, regardless of whether it is optimal do to so from a combat perspective. If, on the other hand, I focus my ultimate usage on combat timing (e.g., Leaping a low health target), then the theoretical sustain from Battle Roar can take a significant hit. That is a considerable opportunity cost; I can either maximize my sustain, or I can maximize my combat efficiency. I cannot do both unless I get my ultimate up at precisely the moment I need it. Invariably, the 276 magicka recovery potential from Battle Roar takes a hit (usually, a very significant hit) due to combat timing.

    So really, we can say that Battle Roar provides a ceiling of about 276 magicka recovery, but what it actually provides can often be significantly less.

    Other classes don't really have to face the same opportunity costs, and certainly no other class has to with regard to their ultimate usage. Staying with the mNB comparison, there is no opportunity costs to Refreshing Shadows or Siphoning Attacks. Those both passively restore resources regardless of what I'm doing and do not effect my ultimate usage whatsoever. There's no real ceiling or floor to the sustain these abilities provide--as your math shows, they basically just provide what they provide assuming you're capable of recasting Siphoning Attacks every 20 seconds.

    Now, of course Battle Roar also has a significant strength. It provides tremendous secondary-stat recovery (e.g., stamina sustain) for mDKs (only Accelerated Growth beats it for secondary stat sustain). But for primary stat sustain and health sustain, Battle Roar has undeniably taken too many nerfs.

    One way of increasing the efficiency of Battle Roar is simply to reduce the costs of some of mDKs overpriced skills. As the poster above me points out, skills like Cinder Storm are outrageously overpriced next to comparable class AoEs. In 2014 and 2015 expensive class abilities was the price mDKs had to pay for nearly unlimited and God-like sustain achieved from converting dynamic ultimate generation into resources through Battle Roar, but those days are long gone and Battle Roar is just a shell of its former self. Yet our class abilities remain the most expensive across the board. If ZOS were to go through and look at each mDK ability and adjust its cost, the strain on Battle Roar could be greatly reduced without having to simply up the resource return on Battle Roar.

    All that being said, I genuinely prefer the opportunity cost playstyle that DK offers. But ZOS needs to make the playstyle feel more feast or famine rather than just famine all the time.

    True, though it's likely you still get more value from Earthen Heart than from Refreshing Shadows - in the end depends on how many mag regen bonuses you've got from gear & mundus.


    I think skills like Cinder Storm just underperform in general and could use some buffs... but I wouldn't touch Flame Lash for instance - the skill already saves you magicka by becoming free every 3 seconds in PvP and twice (maximum) during Off Balance period in PvE.

    Skills that could use buffs/cost reduction/whatever: Ash Cloud & morphs, Talons & morphs, Molten Weapons & morphs, Stonefist & morphs.

    Molten Whip, Reflective Plate, Hardened Armor, Deep Breath, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks also need big buffs in general.

    And from stamina perspective, Venomous Claw doesn't really compare to Rending Slashes/Blood Craze in damage and usefulness (as detailed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/392774/does-any-stamdk-here-feel-the-heroic-slash-nerf/p2) & Igneous Weapons is trash, so those need buffs as well (atleast ones that benefit PvP but don't affect PvE).


    The rest are just fine I think.
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 3:37PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • jakeedmundson
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    DDuke wrote: »

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Please correct me if i'm wrong here. not trying to be a smart @$$ at all.

    response to above....Except in PVE where a boss can only be set off balance every 15 seconds now. (unless i missed a pts patch change)

    this would 100% directly hurt sustain for mag dks in trials/dungeons. Not only can we not rely on proc'ing our own off balance for whips... we will now need to try and time our rotations to match bosses off balance cool downs.
    How has it seemingly gone unnoticed that mag dks already don't get into to trials as dps? I don't see it getting any better after this change.
    CP690
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    Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
    PS4 - DC
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    My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=1
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Please correct me if i'm wrong here. not trying to be a smart @$$ at all.

    response to above....Except in PVE where a boss can only be set off balance every 15 seconds now. (unless i missed a pts patch change)

    this would 100% directly hurt sustain for mag dks in trials/dungeons. Not only can we not rely on proc'ing our own off balance for whips... we will now need to try and time our rotations to match bosses off balance cool downs.
    How has it seemingly gone unnoticed that mag dks already don't get into to trials as dps? I don't see it getting any better after this change.

    Oh, I was speaking of PvP as that's what the op (speaking of telegraphs, dodging etc) was referring to.

    PvE is a different story and I'm not qualified to talk about that as I mostly play a stamblade (sometimes stam DK) in PvE.


    But from purely theorycrafting perspective, two Power Lashes every Off Balance period saves you 4182 magicka (7 light armor). If these Off Balance periods happen every 15s (not sure if the cooldown timer begins when Off Balance begins or ends), then you're looking at anywhere between 557-836 worth of "magicka regen" in terms of value attained.
    4182/15(Cooldown begins at the end of Off Balance)=278*2=557 "magicka regen"
    4182/10(Cooldown begins at the start of Off Balance)=418*2=836 "magicka regen"



    I don't know how many Power Lashes magicka DKs are currently casting on average, so it's hard to compare for me.


    Keep in mind also that the double resources from heavy attacks on Off Balanced targets should help a lot with resource management.

    You can do: PL->Heavy Attack->PL->Heavy Attack & that should restore 12 756 magicka from the heavy attacks+([your mag regen]*2,5) during that period.
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 3:50PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Kilandros
    Kilandros
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.

    But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.

    Can you link me the video?


    My math on the subject:

    Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).

    If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
    125/3=41,666....

    With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
    46*125=5750

    So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
    5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen


    To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
    15% of 1840=276


    So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).

    106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
    4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.

    Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..

    I would like to point out that Battle Roar has a significant opportunity cost attached to it that isn't and cannot be represented by numbers. You indicate that Battle Roar can net the equivalent of 276 magicka recovery, but that assumes ultimate use on cooldown. In other words, to achieve 276 magicka recovery from Battle Roar, I need to utilize my ultimate the instant it becomes available, regardless of whether it is optimal do to so from a combat perspective. If, on the other hand, I focus my ultimate usage on combat timing (e.g., Leaping a low health target), then the theoretical sustain from Battle Roar can take a significant hit. That is a considerable opportunity cost; I can either maximize my sustain, or I can maximize my combat efficiency. I cannot do both unless I get my ultimate up at precisely the moment I need it. Invariably, the 276 magicka recovery potential from Battle Roar takes a hit (usually, a very significant hit) due to combat timing.

    So really, we can say that Battle Roar provides a ceiling of about 276 magicka recovery, but what it actually provides can often be significantly less.

    Other classes don't really have to face the same opportunity costs, and certainly no other class has to with regard to their ultimate usage. Staying with the mNB comparison, there is no opportunity costs to Refreshing Shadows or Siphoning Attacks. Those both passively restore resources regardless of what I'm doing and do not effect my ultimate usage whatsoever. There's no real ceiling or floor to the sustain these abilities provide--as your math shows, they basically just provide what they provide assuming you're capable of recasting Siphoning Attacks every 20 seconds.

    Now, of course Battle Roar also has a significant strength. It provides tremendous secondary-stat recovery (e.g., stamina sustain) for mDKs (only Accelerated Growth beats it for secondary stat sustain). But for primary stat sustain and health sustain, Battle Roar has undeniably taken too many nerfs.

    One way of increasing the efficiency of Battle Roar is simply to reduce the costs of some of mDKs overpriced skills. As the poster above me points out, skills like Cinder Storm are outrageously overpriced next to comparable class AoEs. In 2014 and 2015 expensive class abilities was the price mDKs had to pay for nearly unlimited and God-like sustain achieved from converting dynamic ultimate generation into resources through Battle Roar, but those days are long gone and Battle Roar is just a shell of its former self. Yet our class abilities remain the most expensive across the board. If ZOS were to go through and look at each mDK ability and adjust its cost, the strain on Battle Roar could be greatly reduced without having to simply up the resource return on Battle Roar.

    All that being said, I genuinely prefer the opportunity cost playstyle that DK offers. But ZOS needs to make the playstyle feel more feast or famine rather than just famine all the time.

    True, though it's likely you still get more value from Earthen Heart than from Refreshing Shadows - in the end depends on how many mag regen bonuses you've got from gear & mundus.


    I think skills like Cinder Storm just underperform in general and could use some buffs... but I wouldn't touch Flame Lash for instance - the skill already saves you magicka by becoming free every 3 seconds in PvP and twice (maximum) during Off Balance period in PvE.

    Skills that could use buffs/cost reduction/whatever: Ash Cloud & morphs, Talons & morphs, Molten Weapons & morphs, Stonefist & morphs.

    Molten Whip, Reflective Plate, Hardened Armor, Deep Breath, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks also need big buffs.

    And from stamina perspective, Venomous Claw doesn't really compare to Rending Slashes/Blood Craze in damage and usefulness (as detailed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/392774/does-any-stamdk-here-feel-the-heroic-slash-nerf/p2) & Igneous Weapons is trash.


    The rest are just fine I think.

    Yeah I would love to see some of those underutilized abilities like Fragmented Shield and Igneous Weapons get buffed. Maybe some day.
    Invictus
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    Deimos - Templar / Grand Warlord
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    Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

    DK IS NOT JUST A TANK CLASS. #PLAYTHEWAYYOUWANT
  • krathos
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    lol people calling for battle roar to be completely removed now? What a joke. It's honestly nothing compared to the sustain mechanics most of the other classes have.

    If you're going to argue against ash cloud having its cost reduced at least make arguments that are somewhat sensible, yeah? Like, oh hey it lasts longer than the other classes similar abilities by a decent amount. Coming here and using it as an excuse to whine that battleroar is still op is insane.

    also, lol at people talking about ele drain in pvp for sustain in a class discussion. any knob on any class can slot a staff and use that. good luck using ele drain except in low number fights.

    as for dk sustain, i'm generally ok. I sustain easier on other classes but it is what it is and yes DK has the second best secondary stat sustain in the game (warden is #1 here). I like the idea another poster made about the current butt cheeks morph of whip being power lash but restoring magicka instead of healing. Or having elder dragon (the worst passive in the game) give 3-5% magicka and stamina recovery per draconic power ability instead of health recov.
    Edited by krathos on January 31, 2018 3:59PM
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • krathos
    krathos
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    Kilandros wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Kilandros wrote: »
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.

    But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.

    Can you link me the video?


    My math on the subject:

    Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).

    If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
    125/3=41,666....

    With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
    46*125=5750

    So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
    5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen


    To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
    15% of 1840=276


    So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).

    106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
    4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.

    Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..

    I would like to point out that Battle Roar has a significant opportunity cost attached to it that isn't and cannot be represented by numbers. You indicate that Battle Roar can net the equivalent of 276 magicka recovery, but that assumes ultimate use on cooldown. In other words, to achieve 276 magicka recovery from Battle Roar, I need to utilize my ultimate the instant it becomes available, regardless of whether it is optimal do to so from a combat perspective. If, on the other hand, I focus my ultimate usage on combat timing (e.g., Leaping a low health target), then the theoretical sustain from Battle Roar can take a significant hit. That is a considerable opportunity cost; I can either maximize my sustain, or I can maximize my combat efficiency. I cannot do both unless I get my ultimate up at precisely the moment I need it. Invariably, the 276 magicka recovery potential from Battle Roar takes a hit (usually, a very significant hit) due to combat timing.

    So really, we can say that Battle Roar provides a ceiling of about 276 magicka recovery, but what it actually provides can often be significantly less.

    Other classes don't really have to face the same opportunity costs, and certainly no other class has to with regard to their ultimate usage. Staying with the mNB comparison, there is no opportunity costs to Refreshing Shadows or Siphoning Attacks. Those both passively restore resources regardless of what I'm doing and do not effect my ultimate usage whatsoever. There's no real ceiling or floor to the sustain these abilities provide--as your math shows, they basically just provide what they provide assuming you're capable of recasting Siphoning Attacks every 20 seconds.

    Now, of course Battle Roar also has a significant strength. It provides tremendous secondary-stat recovery (e.g., stamina sustain) for mDKs (only Accelerated Growth beats it for secondary stat sustain). But for primary stat sustain and health sustain, Battle Roar has undeniably taken too many nerfs.

    One way of increasing the efficiency of Battle Roar is simply to reduce the costs of some of mDKs overpriced skills. As the poster above me points out, skills like Cinder Storm are outrageously overpriced next to comparable class AoEs. In 2014 and 2015 expensive class abilities was the price mDKs had to pay for nearly unlimited and God-like sustain achieved from converting dynamic ultimate generation into resources through Battle Roar, but those days are long gone and Battle Roar is just a shell of its former self. Yet our class abilities remain the most expensive across the board. If ZOS were to go through and look at each mDK ability and adjust its cost, the strain on Battle Roar could be greatly reduced without having to simply up the resource return on Battle Roar.

    All that being said, I genuinely prefer the opportunity cost playstyle that DK offers. But ZOS needs to make the playstyle feel more feast or famine rather than just famine all the time.

    True, though it's likely you still get more value from Earthen Heart than from Refreshing Shadows - in the end depends on how many mag regen bonuses you've got from gear & mundus.


    I think skills like Cinder Storm just underperform in general and could use some buffs... but I wouldn't touch Flame Lash for instance - the skill already saves you magicka by becoming free every 3 seconds in PvP and twice (maximum) during Off Balance period in PvE.

    Skills that could use buffs/cost reduction/whatever: Ash Cloud & morphs, Talons & morphs, Molten Weapons & morphs, Stonefist & morphs.

    Molten Whip, Reflective Plate, Hardened Armor, Deep Breath, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks also need big buffs.

    And from stamina perspective, Venomous Claw doesn't really compare to Rending Slashes/Blood Craze in damage and usefulness (as detailed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/392774/does-any-stamdk-here-feel-the-heroic-slash-nerf/p2) & Igneous Weapons is trash.


    The rest are just fine I think.

    Yeah I would love to see some of those underutilized abilities like Fragmented Shield and Igneous Weapons get buffed. Maybe some day.

    Yeah maybe through those changes we can regain some of our lost identity. Wishful thinking.
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • Savos_Saren
    Savos_Saren
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    @joaaocaampos

    Battle Roar only helps if you're using your ultimate consistently every time that it pops up. It also isn't applied when Eruption is cast. If you want to look at passives that make abilities very strong (and therefore should increase the costs of them) let's look at passives that specifically apply to the similar abilities. (since they're all ground based attacks)

    With that logic:

    Lightning Splash: Whenever you deal Shock Damage you have a 6% chance to instantly disintegrate enemies under 15% Health, dealing [y] Shock Damage.

    Spear Shard: When you deal damage with an Aedric Spear ability, you have a 25% chance to deal an additional [x] Physical Damage or [y] Magic Damage, whicever is higher. This effect can occur once every 0.5 seconds.

    Path of Darkness: Casting a Shadow ability grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward for 6 seconds, increasing Physical and Spell Resistance by 5280. This duration is increased by 25% for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.

    Scorch: Increase your Magicka Recovery and Stamina Recovery by 12% if an Animal Companion ability is slotted.

    Eruption: When you cast an Earthen Heart Ability, you restore 990 Stamina

    ...obviously, there's more passives that apply to all these abilities- but I was just naming one passive from each tree. The seemingly most powerful passives that apply to any of these abilities are from a Warden (big surprise, right?). But still- I don't see where the justification lies in having Eruption over 1000 resource points higher than any similar ability from other classes.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • brtomkin
    brtomkin
    ✭✭✭
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    PS4 NA: Pickmans__Model, CP 1300+
  • jakeedmundson
    jakeedmundson
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k
    Edited by jakeedmundson on January 31, 2018 5:16PM
    CP690
    Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
    Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
    Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
    Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
    Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
    PS4 - DC
    vSOHM - vAAHM - vHRC - vMA Flawless

    My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=1
  • IZZEFlameLash
    IZZEFlameLash
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    Are you for reals? This passive has been nerfed few times already. What's OP about it? It is not like DKs cast ultimates back to back. What are you even trying to get at? If anything it doesn't really help the sustain especially with Morrowind patch and return nerfs on top. Remove sorc/templar/warden/nightblade sustain passives first. Then we can talk about how OP battleroar is. Even then it is doubtful that DK will have the best sustain because this thing is based off of ults. I feel much better playing full damage specs on other classes and not running out as fast as a DK on sustain setup does. And that should say something about DK sustain.
    Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • jakeedmundson
    jakeedmundson
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    "powerful snare" from ash cloud means nothing in trials. And next to nothing in cyrodil.... ground aoes are simple to avoid or roll through.
    Edited by jakeedmundson on January 31, 2018 5:28PM
    CP690
    Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
    Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
    Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
    Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
    Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
    PS4 - DC
    vSOHM - vAAHM - vHRC - vMA Flawless

    My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=1
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.

    You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.

    They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.

    Still wouldn't slot it on a destro/resto DK, but that'd give tank DKs some oomph if they manage to tank pugs in that.
    Edited by DDuke on January 31, 2018 5:38PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • joaaocaampos
    joaaocaampos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    People simply want all classes to have the same skills, just changing the name. And, believe me, this doesn't just happen in ESO. In the other MMOs, the same thing happens! Anyway, I don't agree that the damage should be increased, unless they reduce the snare. But regardless, the cost is high. Higher than Rushed Ceremony. Like I said, a cost of 4050 or 4320 would be great.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.

    You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.

    They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.

    Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.

    You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.

    They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.

    Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.

    Both are garbage in PvP, LL is better in PvE than Eruption.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.

    You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.

    They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.

    Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.

    Both are garbage in PvP, LL is better in PvE than Eruption.

    Well Duke, that brings us back to the class kit. Should the DK be able to annihilate anything in melee range while being untouchable by ranged? Because that’s what the proposed changes that get thrown around here would boil down to.
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • joaaocaampos
    joaaocaampos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Okay, we got a deal!

    Ash Cloud
    • Summon a scorching cloud of ash at the target location, dealing (20% more than the present value) Flame Damage to nearby enemies every 1 second.
    • Also reduces enemy Movement Speed by 40%.
    • Radius: 8m
    • Cost: 4050 (or 4320, if the damage is increased by more than 20%.)
    Edited by joaaocaampos on January 31, 2018 5:50PM
  • jakeedmundson
    jakeedmundson
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.

    You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.

    They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.

    Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.

    Both are garbage in PvP, LL is better in PvE than Eruption.

    Well Duke, that brings us back to the class kit. Should the DK be able to annihilate anything in melee range while being untouchable by ranged? Because that’s what the proposed changes that get thrown around here would boil down to.

    If they could "annihilate" anything at any distance right now... we wouldn't be having this conversation (or a dozen threads about the fate of mag dk)
    CP690
    Lv 50 Dunmer DragonKnight Tank/Dps
    Lv 50 Altmer Sorcerer Dps
    Lv 50 Breton Templar Healer/Dps
    Lv 50 Altmer Nightblade Dps
    Lv 50 Redguard Sorcerer Dps
    PS4 - DC
    vSOHM - vAAHM - vHRC - vMA Flawless

    My version of a Heavy Attack Sorc build
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/294724/magicka-sorc-heavy-attack-build-homestead-ready/p1?new=1
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