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Powerlash & Searing Strike 3.3.3

  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    pieratsos wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    Sure, as long as they can only be used on targets with a special condition, and have a prerequisite attack that itself is dodgeable.

    Fossilize is dodgeable? I haven't kept track of all the changes, was under the impression couldnt block or dodge this attack

    It's not, people just like to omit inconvenient facts that ruin their whole narrative in favour of more hysteria, hyperboles & misinformation.

    Flame lash


    Is dodgeable.

    Thats what you need to land a PL

    You dont need a fossilize to proc PL

    One is the problem, the other the solution - just as it is on Live.


    If you CC with Fossilize on cooldown followed by Flame lash (as any mDK should), you get those 5 seconds of Off Balance every 7 seconds.
    On Live, this means one Power Lash with Off Balance consumed immediately, on PTS it's two Power Lashes and no Off Balance consumed (unless you hit a non-CC immune target & stun with it).

    Some alternatives: Talons->Lash, Immobilize Poison->Lash, Lightning Staff+WoE, Tactician passive, Shattering Rocks morph of Petrify.


    Yet at the end of the day your still wasting more magic to get what you could before with less magic.
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Can we just revert powerlash please.

    If the majority of mdks want it, make it so. 5s soft CD (more with lightning/interrupts) and no permanent off balance, but a rewarding hard hitting attack that can be used efficiently in PvE and pvp.

    It can already be countered multiple ways before proc, (roll/mist/streak/purge/cloak pre flame lash when rooted or use something like FM.) So it should be undodgable.

    If they want to make something dodgeable, make chains a non projectile based GC, and with embers change it should be fine.

    Yes like all of the instant cast abilities in game. Should we make them all undodgeable too?

    The ones with a pre req that incentives it to be dodged, or can be completely shut down before proc, sure. Something like frags/will does not require a resource investment that can completely fail before hand. Will being light attacks, and frags proccing off any mag abilities, hits or no.

    Shall we make it so frags is effectively limited to once every CC proc, because otherwise someone can just roll/FM/mist etc to ignore its actual setup.

    Take backlash for example, it is undodgable because it relies on other attacks which ARE dodgable, lose a counter (dodge) gain a counter (lowering damage from the ability). Or shalk, it can't be blocked or dodged conventially, but it can be strafed. Or wrath pop, it can't be dodged, but requires setup, first hit and getting into exe range)

    This is going to make the sustain problem worse actually, contrary to what DDuke said. Because you now have to dump more resources into making sure it hits. I would happily give up the "extra lashes" or higher exploiter, or the dodgy stun for my ability to land.

    Out of the three, frags is the worst. The ability is a dead skill on ur bar when you dont have a proc. At least flame lash and merciless are good even without their procs. And they are already limited to once every CC because you aint going to do jack [snip] with frags or spectral bow unless you use them in a cc combo. If you throw frags and spectral bow just like that, they will get dodged even easier than power lash.

    They have different proc conditions. Just because skilled players are going to react, it doesnt mean that you should punish them for playing good. This is beyond ridiculous. Just because i know when the frag is coming which will make it very easily counterable it doesnt mean that frags should start ignore defensive mechanics. Same with spectral bow. I remember fighting a magblade some time ago. For over 5 minutes i was dodging his spectral bow combo. I probably dodged 10-20 spectral bows in a row before i got hit by one. And i think he was using them after incap so the combo was as good as it can get. Shall we make spectral bow undodgeable now?

    And there is no such thing as completely shut down before it proc. Can we please stop with that bias? Literally in this thread you guys are complaining how big of a nerf the cooldown is because you are all spamming power lashes on live which would mean that you are setting people off balance every second. Now suddenly its so bad to the point where you cant ever set people off balance? Its either one or the other. It seems like cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed.

    Power lash is a single target instant cast ability. It should be dodgeable like every other ability that belongs to that category. Period. And backlash is completely different. Backlash belongs to the category of dots/effects that you have on ur target. Therefore its undodgeable and unblockable. If you want to change power lash somehow feel free to suggest a change. But there is absolutely no reason for it be undodgeable just because you feel that it has many counters.


    And mindlessly roll dodging after reacting late to a cc that roots is playing good....


    Playing good was already the counter to powerlash. Now it can be countered by autopilot.



    Yes genius. Rolling has a cost. The counter to root is roll. If you manage ur rolls to stay out of roots without running out of stamina you are playing good.

    If you cant use the ability in combos like every other class in the game then its a problem with you, not with the ability.

    OR you can just block the powerlash. That cost only 2.1k. Thats less than a dodgeroll. Actually 1.7k now with this update.

    If you KNOW the opponent has an undodgable ability ready to use and you roll anyway because your screen flashes IMMOBILIZED, you just went autopilot.

    You can also Cloak the flame lash.

    You can also counter CC, i get feared out of my Powerlashes alot. Seeing as its not always easy to clear that range with a more often than not 50% plus snare on you.(lets be honest if your not running FM your snared as a mag DK. Pop mistform? Cool you will be snared in it and once you get out of it.)

    Oh one more counter for the actually good and reactive players, if the Dk tries to range you with 8m whips you can actually get clear of its range with a dodgeroll.

    Instant cast is Flame lash

    Power lash is “technically” instant cast or

    Instant cast*

    There not the same so quit lumping it in with “instant cast abilities”

    Yes, block is also a counter for prety much everything you know. Not exclusive to power lash.
    And they are the same. Like frags and spectral bow you know. There is really no point having this conversation with you. It seems like you will never be happy unless you can land power lashes on everyone without them being able to do anything.

    You could already dodge Flame Lash, dodge out of roots, use immovable potions to prevent Fossilize or other hard CCs, and prevent yourself from being set Off-Balance in the first place...

    And since Power Lash is now dodgeable, why should it also get a 3 second cooldown?

    There was no apparent reason to tack both of those changes onto Power Lash, especially an arbitrary cooldown.

    As I keep having to repeat over and over, Power Lash had plenty of available counterplay before, and simply making it dodgeable would have been fine.

    But then they added a cooldown, immediately making Off-Balance builds (legitimate builds on Live currently, referred to as "meme builds" by duke, even though it's a way of building for high damage with very little survivability since it uses Lightning staff instead of Restoration staff, but now magDK doesn't even have that option anymore, it's simply erased from being worth using now lol...)



    Power lash has a cooldown because power lash spam would be beyond broken. You would actually know this if you were doing any kind of PVP. So stop with these stupid comments. You cant break PVP because PVE mDKs have issues.

    Power lash became dodgeable and now all of a sudden power lash is very hard to proc with a lot of counters. The irony is that all those counters you mentioned already exist on live. That would mean that you dont proc power lash already. But when the cooldown was announced suddenly all of you are playing power lash spam builds setting people off balance every second, 3 seconds is a big nerf and you are getting mad at people calling them meme builds. You are just cherry picking arguments just to say mDK got nerfed. There is so much bias that is actually tragic.

    You will never be happy unless you can spam undodgeable power lashes on everyone. According to you mDK will only be balanced when you can automatically delete everyone who even gets close to you.

    I don't play a magDK, as I've also mentioned countless times before.

    I know many amazing players who do, and I have fought them many, many times.

    They have to build for activating Off-Balance more often if they want more Power Lashes by using a Lightning staff.

    That build type was just made completely obsolete and pointless, due to the cooldown.

    You have no clue about the things of which you speak other than repeating the same "DK deserves to be nerfed because they keep killing me and that makes me sad :(" drivel you persistently vomit into this thread.

    Im not even sure why i keep trying to talk reason into you. You are so clueless and you made yourself look like an idiot countless times with your lack of knowledge about prety much everything. Its clear that you are a lost cause.

    I know those builds. Learn to read. I said that whenever it suits you everyone plays that build or no one plays that build just so you can say that mDK got nerfed. Yes i know that you dont play mDK at all. Thats why you are incapable of understanding anything regarding mDK. The only clueless person here is you.

    I never said DK deserves to be nerfed. I actually said the exact opposite. But you obviously cant see that cause you live in ur own little fantasy world where the whole universe is conspiring against you.

    Im the one that keeps getting killed? You are the one complaining about everything and how ur class that you dont even play anymore is dead for the 100th time in the last few months. Just stop and save urself from further embarrassment. Dunno maybe just go on to ur prolonged suffering magblade combos.

    mDK is clearly not ur thing. They could actually make power lash undodgeable without cooldown and you would suck at it. Lmao.

    [Edited for quote]
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 6, 2018 5:05PM
  • DDuke
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    Power Lash still heals you even if it gets dodged on PTS @CaliMade


    And all this talk of "counters", if there were any medium armor builds wouldn't consistently be dying to first Fossilize rotation on Live.

    The only way to really avoid Power Lash is CC immunity (Immovable pot)+root immunity (Shuffle/Forward Momentum) - having 100% up time on those is not possible (well, with heavy armor you can have 100% uptime with the skill no one uses, Immovable).

    Also, slotting Forward Momentum means you won't have a burst heal, which means you die to the DoT ticks after mDK Leaps you (or just to a Fossilize->LA+Flame Lash).

    "Block"? Well, you'll still take 5k damage through the block from Power Lash alone if fighting a high dmg build, +another 1,5-2k'ish from light attack, DoT ticks etc... you still wind up below 50% of your health pool every 7 seconds after Fossilize combo with multiple DoTs ticking on you & take 3-4k (depending on how many points in Shadow Ward) hit to your stamina pool from blocking multiple attacks.
    @CaliMade wrote:
    And if you wanna be on the same side as @DDuke and say “ throw extra abilities in between just to get it to land” then its most clearly a nerf at that point because you are wasting more resources to get what you could now with less.

    I'd imagine that is exactly the point of these changes (besides fixing a bug), allowing dodge rollers to live a couple seconds longer than they currently do - if they're good and time their dodge rolls well.

    Currently on Live they do not ever live more than 10-20 seconds against even a semi-decent magicka DK - no exceptions.
    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game - does that sound balanced to you?

    I don't know about you, but I'm tired of getting free kills from all medium armor builds, and if they can make the game more balanced by giving them a small chance while also buffing magicka DK against other builds and not harming their 1vX capabilities (you still get the heal from Power Lash even if it's dodged), where's the harm?
    Edited by DDuke on February 6, 2018 1:52PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • pieratsos
    pieratsos
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    CaliMade wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    CaliMade wrote: »

    I just listed like 4 different counters already in effect, how is that not being able to do anything?

    This is why i told you that there is no point having this conversation with you. Cause you actually believe that only power lash has counters. Block, dodge, counter cc, mist form, cloak are counters for prety much everything. If we go at range abilities like frags and spectral bow and any other projectile for that matter then they can also be reflected and absorbed. Frags also have visual cues indicating when the frag is rdy. I just listed abilities with 4-8 different counters. Some of them also help with survivability like swallow soul. According to you all of them should be undodgeable. Why not make them go through block while we are at it. Can you comprehend how ridiculously dumb that sounds? Power lash is not the black ship of the game. Its just another ability. And if we are being honest, it is one of the most overloaded abilities in the game.
    CaliMade wrote: »

    As ive said before , by all means make it dodgeable, just give Dk something to compensate. Like a powerlash that procs of the actual cc not the follow up flame lash.

    I wouldnt be bothered if OW Dk didnt depend on this skill landing, but it does.


    It is not the same as spectral nor frag. as Nbs Doesnt need Spectral bow to survive in open world. And sorcs are just on the other side of the graveyard with thier wet noodle attack we call procced frags. But landing frags in pvp doesnt boost thier surviability outside of the obvious KOBK.

    I want you to test somthing.

    Go into PVP solo and play mag dk with powerlash. For like 2-3 days

    Then go into PVP solo and play mag Dk with molten whip on the exact same build and tell me how that works out for your survivability.

    Sorcs and NBs dont need to land frags or spectrals to stay alive.

    Now you are just going all over the place and started listing class issues to excuse power lash being undodgeable. This is also stupid. For starters, who says that i dont play mDK? You are just assuming that anyone who doesnt simply say "buff DK" is a DK "hater" who doesnt play the class. Also an indicator of ur bias. I dont consider the class perfect and imo it does have issues. That doesnt mean that abilities should start ignoring mechanics. If the class lacks passive healing embers could be reworked into a hot instead of a burst heal. This way if you apply it on multiple people then you have a ton of incoming healing. Wings also need a buff.

    Point is, if a class has issues then by all means suggest buffs/changes to help fixing those issues. But not with abilities ignoring mechanics and basic rulesets that were implemented to have some sort of balance.


    So because the counters I listed were strong counters to pretty much everything that means power lash needs an extra one?

    Stop comparing Power lash to abilities that can be cast every single second.

    It is not the same.

    If i had to first land a swallow soul on a CC’d target then swallow soul once again to access its heal then YES the later procced swallow soul can be undodgeable. Yet even then, the night blade doesnt need that to survive and sustain. So theres an argument here.


    As far as that “game mechanics” argument you lean on. Power lash can be countered as ive listed the counters over and over again. Just because they counter other things to doesnt mean they arent valid counters. Power lash is “technically” instant cast. It cannot be lumped in with other instant cast abilities. Its the “Y” in “ A E I O & U”. It doest fit in the same box as other instant cast abilities so it should have its mechanics ajdjusted to adhere to is uniqueness. One option is to make it undodgeable, another it to have it Instant cast from an actual CC. The latter hurts PVE DK even more. To have it dodgeable after it offers a valid amout of counters will make it like the other abilities in this game with too many counters, not worth the trouble. Not worth the trouble is actually a trend in DK skills

    Dragons blood
    Wings
    Igneous sheild
    Molten whip
    Magma shell

    All abilities that on paper sound solid,
    until you use them.


    And if you wanna be on the same side as @DDuke and say “ throw extra abilities in between just to get it to land” then its most clearly a nerf at that point because you are wasting more resources to get what you could now with less.

    If and ability has multiple ways to be denied already and you need on more, thats a personal problem.

    You went full potato in that bolded part. Power lash doesnt get an extra counter because other abilities have extra counters. Power lash is getting a bug fix because it was ignoring a basic ruleset that was designed for all abilities that function like it (Instant cast single target non channel abilities).

    And yes its instant cast single target non channel like all others. The fact that its not spammable doesnt change the basic functionality of the ability. Its not spammable cause its too strong to be spammable. Just like frags, just like spectral bow. They are all instant cast single target non channel abilities and therefore belong to the category of dodgeable and blockable. Period.

    Seriously dont even say that its not instant cast ever again. You are literally trying to redesign the game based on ur preferences to exclude abilities from basic rulesets and have them ignore mechanics. But of course you do that only for the abilities that you use. This is one of the most outrageous biased comments ive ever heard.

    Again if DKs have other issues its completely irrelevant. Suggest buffs to help with that that doesnt involve ignoring mechanics and basic rulesets of abilities. To have it dodgeable doesnt mean its dead. It just means not guaranteed power lashes on dodge builds. And allow me to indulge you to an actual experienced PVP mDK and his opinion about dodgeable power lash with a 3 second cooldown.
    Passifest wrote: »
    The changes are not the end of the world from a pvp perspective. The average mdk will do better vs non-dodge rollers and worse vs dodge rollers. This 4 second heal thing sounds like a bug so I wouldn't factor that in. Maybe it is a bug fix and the passive was supposed to effect the heal in the first place :D? Pvp wise besides from dodge rollers the only negative impact will be to people using lighting staff builds which I do so I am mad about the changes.

    So yeah keep believing that power lash and mDK is dead.
    Edited by pieratsos on February 6, 2018 2:14PM
  • ak_pvp
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    Removing the CD altogether would be an awful idea, that being one that was already done in 3.3.0/1, and it proved to be broken as all hell. In PVP you will never set up a PL more than once 5s on live, so 3s is 100% a buff for it, and (@pieratsos I never denied this, but the percentage of PLs hit would go down, overall its probably going to be similar number, amount, Its just less reliable). Maybe switching it to 3s per target would help, being more useful in 1vX with things like AoE interrupt/shattering rocks/lighting wall. (And for vMA.)

    I do get what both sides are saying, yes on live dodge is underpowered as heck, generally due to the way that "skilled" AVA is played with bird spam and AoE trains, and DK is no deadder than prior. However saying that powerlash has "no counters" is so much *** it is funny. I listed them to you, but nope, still not a counter.
    I'd imagine that is exactly the point of these changes (besides fixing a bug), allowing dodge rollers to live a couple seconds longer than they currently do - if they're good and time their dodge rolls well.

    Currently on Live they do not ever live more than 10-20 seconds against even a semi-decent magicka DK - no exceptions.
    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game - does that sound balanced to you?

    Again, I am all for med armour buffs, but this is not the right one. Why not something like LOSing+sneaking allows you to lose aggro faster and go into stealth, and if you have a dot on you and you stealth, it'd still deal damage, but not show up through walls. Something buffing the actual line. You can already time dodge rolls/streaks/cloaks in a talons to avoid the offbalancing lash. This is giving an extra chance to dodge if a mistake is made, not penalizing mistakes as much. Which when its goodvgood, a mistake is pretty much the only way to kill someone.

    The most onesided isn't really true either. The RPS (or gem parchment clippers in ESOs case) is a stupid, but definite part of the game, like how a DK's 5 GCD and resources is countered by a mag templar's single purge, or how a petsorc can abuse melee builds. But I don't ask for nerfs for either.*

    *(Well, I wanted shield nerfs when sorcs were strong, they instead gutted the balanced part of it, go figure.)
    Edited by ak_pvp on February 6, 2018 2:28PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • DDuke
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Removing the CD altogether would be an awful idea, that being one that was already done in 3.3.0/1, and it proved to be broken as all hell. In PVP you will never set up a PL more than once 5s on live, so 3s is 100% a buff for it, and (@pieratsos I never denied this, but the percentage of PLs hit would go down, overall its probably going to be similar number, amount, Its just less reliable). Maybe switching it to 3s per target would help, being more useful in 1vX with things like AoE interrupt/shattering rocks/lighting wall. (And for vMA.)

    I do get what both sides are saying, yes on live dodge is underpowered as heck, generally due to the way that "skilled" AVA is played with bird spam and AoE trains, and DK is no deadder than prior. However saying that powerlash has "no counters" is so much *** it is funny. I listed them to you, but nope, still not a counter.
    I'd imagine that is exactly the point of these changes (besides fixing a bug), allowing dodge rollers to live a couple seconds longer than they currently do - if they're good and time their dodge rolls well.

    Currently on Live they do not ever live more than 10-20 seconds against even a semi-decent magicka DK - no exceptions.
    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game - does that sound balanced to you?

    Again, I am all for med armour buffs, but this is not the right one. Why not something like LOSing+sneaking allows you to lose aggro faster and go into stealth, and if you have a dot on you and you stealth, it'd still deal damage, but not show up through walls. Something buffing the actual line.

    The reason people are complaining about medium armor so much is because the amount of undodgeable damage on Live is just too much, Power Lash being one of the worst offenders. Sure, it has always been undodgeable - but previously you didn't have to care about surviving mDKs on a stamina build, you'd just instagib them with procs (or without procs back in the days before Battle Spirit).

    People have been proposing buffs to the medium armor skill line for multiple patch cycles now - I think it's obvious they've chosen to tone down the most unfair undodgeable skills instead and I'm personally fine with that. Remember that Wardens also lost their undodgeable birds.

    As to the idea you're suggesting: you can't "LOS+sneak" in middle of combat, especially against a mDK with Chains slotted. Against a good mDK, you can't get 10m away without them closing in immediately.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    You can already time dodge rolls/streaks/cloaks in a talons to avoid the offbalancing lash. This is giving an extra chance to dodge if a mistake is made, not penalizing mistakes as much. Which when its goodvgood, a mistake is pretty much the only way to kill someone.

    Is getting CC'd by Fossilize a "mistake" now? Because I'd like to see how you avoid making such "mistakes" after your Immovable pot (down to 10s duration next patch btw) runs out. I don't run Talons on my mDK at all, too much magicka spent for just a simple root.

    If anything they should buff that skill instead, and things like Ash Cloud etc.
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    The most onesided isn't really true either. The RPS (or gem parchment clippers in ESOs case) is a stupid, but definite part of the game, like how a DK's 5 GCD and resources is countered by a mag templar's single purge, or how a petsorc can abuse melee builds. But I don't ask for nerfs for either.*

    *(Well, I wanted shield nerfs when sorcs were strong, they instead gutted the balanced part of it, go figure.)

    There is no "rock paper scissors". You say mag templar somehow "counters" mDK, it doesn't. You'd have to make a pretty big mistake as mDK to die to a magplar, which have quite likely the lowest burst damage in the game.

    Also with proper gear & CPs, they'll spend all their time spamming ritual, getting rid of your Elemental Drain, Concussion, Burning, BSW Burning, Siphoner passive etc which cost nothing to you as mDK.

    A good magplar can still beat a good mDK after a long sustain fight, but it's never a "free kill" like medium armor dodge rollers are to mDK.

    Same for Heavy Armor Troll King builds & pet sorcs (other builds that can beat a mDK), builds that don't even exist in open world. It's never a "free kill".

    The only builds that really currently get "hardcountered" by other builds are dodge rollers.
    Edited by DDuke on February 6, 2018 3:02PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • pieratsos
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Removing the CD altogether would be an awful idea, that being one that was already done in 3.3.0/1, and it proved to be broken as all hell. In PVP you will never set up a PL more than once 5s on live, so 3s is 100% a buff for it, and (@pieratsos I never denied this, but the percentage of PLs hit would go down, overall its probably going to be similar number, amount, Its just less reliable). Maybe switching it to 3s per target would help, being more useful in 1vX with things like AoE interrupt/shattering rocks/lighting wall. (And for vMA.)

    I do get what both sides are saying, yes on live dodge is underpowered as heck, generally due to the way that "skilled" AVA is played with bird spam and AoE trains, and DK is no deadder than prior. However saying that powerlash has "no counters" is so much *** it is funny. I listed them to you, but nope, still not a counter.

    I never said that power lash has no counters. I said that it should function like all the other abilities. Meaning dodgeable. Just because it has other counters it doesnt mean that it should also ignore mechanics. Rulesets were put in place for a reason. Keep things balanced and promote skilled and fun gameplay for everyone. If abilities overperform or underperform then changes could happen to make them more balanced. Those changes however do not include ignoring the basic rulesets that were designed to keep the abilities balanced and promote skilled gameplay.

    At the end of the day it boils down to one thing. Dodgeable powerlashes with a 3s cd is a buff against everyone except against medium roll builds. In those fights it is a clear nerf but even then, the mDK is still hugely in favor to win that fight. And on top of that power lash also now has a cc which will definitely help in 1vX against everyone and possibly open up even more new viable builds since it helps with one huge issue mDKs always had: limited bar space cause their abilities do not have multiple functions. Do you remember the old times when DKs were using invasion for both gap closer and cc i.e an ability with different functions? This is what a cc attached to power lash may do now.

    So why on gods green earth power lash should also be undodgeable? Give me one valid reason why power lash should be the only instant cast single target ability in game to ignore mechanics just so mDKs are stronger in a matchup that they are already in huge favor to win while you also take into account the buffs it got against everyone else.

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