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Powerlash & Searing Strike 3.3.3

  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »
    It is not one sided to mDK. Medium builds have and can win against mDK just as fine as mDKs can kill glass cannon med builds. Well built medium builds are harder to kill than a heavy build due to sheer amount of damage and sustain allowing them to heal virtually untouched unless mDK itself is stacking up damage. But when mDK focuses on damage stacking, it will die sooner or later due to lack of sustain and/or tankiness. Usually damage stacked mDKs tend to die just after dizzying (or whatever spammable they use) -> Dawnbreaker -> Execute. Takes like 2 to 3 seconds. This is why mDKs run s/b most of the times as it is their only real source of mitigation through blocking.

    Even defense focused builds can be bursted in 2-3 seconds in light armor the moment pressure amounts (usually resources are gone through poison and in trying to deal with the pressure). Also, medium armor DoT builds with bleeding that goes through any resistance is very much a killer as well. Cannot heal through that damage pretty much. It is like a defile that makes mDK waste their magicka pool real fast trying to survive. It is not really one sided in mDK's favor.

    Right, except the maximum potential burst you can take in 5/1/1 light armor (no S&B) is 19k, and your Healing Ward (only dmg shield in the game that scales also with spell dmg) outheals/shields entire rotations from your opponent. Not that these builds ever really get to go on offensive (unless they're Xv1'ing, as usual, in which case you shield/fossilize spam until you've got ulti & then kill them all).

    It takes one Fossilize to turn the whole fight around once you've CC break'd their Incap/whatever & Healing Warded.

    I can understand immobile S&B builds having trouble killing (maybe even surviving if there's Defile) medium armor builds if they have Troll King, but not high dmg mDKs.

    It's the most onesided fight in the entire game at the moment, you'd have better chances against mDK as a naked magicka sorcerer.

    Have you never fought an Immovability Troll King Eternal Hunt Dodgeblade?

    Yes, plenty (that's a very popular open world build). They've zero chance of surviving longer than 10-20 seconds thanks to Empowering Chains on my bar & 8m range on Whip, which lets you hit them while you're bypassing mines from the side. I prefer fighting these builds in 1vX, less chance of dying than if I'm being pummeled by multiple high dmg gankers.
    Use a better build on your Nightblade if you seriously have that much trouble against magDKs.

    ...and maybe you should consider a better different build on mDK if you have trouble against medium armor players?
    They are not the counter to medium builds that you seem to think they are, and they certainly can't have BOTH the damage to kill those medium builds AND the bulk to survive their burst, as well as they sustain to spam Healing Ward as you like to advocate.

    Sure you can, I have videos on my channel proving such builds work. I can duel any medium armor person of your choosing to prove that as well (on Live, or on PTS). As it happens, you get both damage and survivability by stacking spell dmg/magicka, since Healing Ward scales with both. And a mDK with Eyes of Mara resto bar can easily sustain spamming Healing Ward.
    Fight some ACTUAL good medium builds and not random pugs you asked to let you smack them with your Flame Lash until they die and call it a "combat test."

    Like whom? Perhaps you'd like to demonstrate? :lol:
    You have posted nothing but negativity and contrarian, edgy word vomit in EVERY magDK thread.

    Cease derailment or cease talking.

    I'm merely getting the facts straight.

    If you have problems vs medium armor builds as a magicka DK, that's entirely a L2P issue, and I'm sure pretty much every good player in this game would agree with that.


    Now shoo, I'm sure you have thread number #13 or #14 to create.
    Edited by DDuke on February 1, 2018 2:19AM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Because it's not even theoretically possible to burst down a mDK with that setup. You have to mess up in a big way to lose to a medium armor scrub.

    I lived through some heavy damage, cast a healing ward as you do when at low HP, and promptly got oneshot through it.

    If that is messing up, then i guess i messed up.

    I just calculated the highest possible Rev Slice you can take (with shield up)

    Gear: 5x Spriggan 5x Alchemist 1x Kena
    Buffs: Major Brutality, Alchemist, Minor Berserk, Incap +20% Dmg, Weapon Damage Enchant, Minor Vulnerability
    Total Damage Modifier: 64%
    Crit Modifier: 72%

    Rev Slice tooltip: 7855x3(maximum scaling)=23 565+8%(Minor Vulnerability)=25 450

    ...and when we add Battle Spirit+defensive CPs (https://jscalc.io/calc/fiasVNPSGsOdmsF6): 9,131.460 dmg (no crit, no mitigation counted as we're talking about dmg shield)

    Assuming you have pretty much zero mitigation (spriggan+major fracture+37 points in piercing), by adding 24% crit modifier (what remains after 48% crit mitigation) we get: 11 322 dmg on armor, 5660 if you're blocking.

    Edit: note that for maximum Rev Slice bonus you'd need to be around 15% I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong here), at 30-50% health you shouldn't be taking nearly that much damage.

    @DDuke

    Are the enemy's CP calculated in there? Wouldn't the opponent have 75 Mighty, 81 Master at Arms, 51 Precise Strikes, and 23 Piercing.

    So: They'd have 14% extra damage, 24% extra direct damage, 19% extra crit, and 2149 more penetration on top of Spriggans.

    Yes, 64 Mighty 73 Master-at-Arms (+36% dmg) 66 Precise Strikes (22% crit dmg) 37 Piercing (3184 pen) <best allocation for burst (zero points in Thauma), all counted in.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • KaiserKnight
    KaiserKnight
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    Let's keep the conversation about dragonknight abilities and passives that may need some attention/adjustments. So far many of you have made some great suggestions. I would like that we all stay on topic so that we can provide good feedback about the class. :)
  • Sharee
    Sharee
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Because it's not even theoretically possible to burst down a mDK with that setup. You have to mess up in a big way to lose to a medium armor scrub.

    I lived through some heavy damage, cast a healing ward as you do when at low HP, and promptly got oneshot through it.

    If that is messing up, then i guess i messed up.

    I don't remember ever having my Healing Ward blown up by one rotation from one player, still if I've taken heavy dmg I tend to block cast it just in case.

    Well that's why i originally wondered whether we are playing the same game.
    DDuke wrote: »
    The healing+shield should eaaasily deal with even 2-4 players. Are you sure that person who cast Structured Entropy at you didn't also hit you with something?

    You saw the log yourself. I cleared the names, but except for the entropy, it's all done by the same player. I only included the first line so that it is clear the shield was freshly cast and at full strength when the burst hit me.
    Let's keep the conversation about dragonknight abilities and passives that may need some attention/adjustments. So far many of you have made some great suggestions. I would like that we all stay on topic so that we can provide good feedback about the class. :)

    You are right of course. Sorry for sidetracking. I'll shut up now.
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion), and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through. I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    NOTE: Still a global 3 Second Cooldown on Powerlash

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgable)

    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgable it will be very difficult to land)

    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds.

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    Keep this forum constructive.

    Lets hope DKs get some love before the patch drops!

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert






    This is just my personal opinion but take it how you will.

    I've seen EXTENSIVE post over the past 3-5 years (I forget how long we're going on now) of lots of good potentially great ideas for changes to DK & specifically magdk
    The problem I'm seeing is that I have yet to see any of these post for ANY other class!
    How do you guys expect anyone to not see this as biased if the whole point is to make balance better? I'm not saying zenimax's changes are the best, but you're not giving them any options by only discussing one class rather than going through all the classes & explaining all changes that need to be made & why.

    If Zenimax implemented half of the changes I've seen mentioned over the years magdk would easily be the supreme ruler of cyrodiil without a doubt! If for no other reason than the dk community giving very specific detail for making abilities work perfectly!

    Personally I'm not great at testing, math, etc... but just saying if you want people to take you seriously then tell everyone how each class should be balanced rather than just talking about one specific class. Otherwise other classes are just going to look at these threads thinking you're a bunch of biased dk whiners.
    Member of:
    Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
    Just Chill - Crown's house
    GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
    Small Meme Guild - Mano's house

    Former member of:
    Legend - Siffer fan boy club
    TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
    Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
    Purple - hamNchz is my hero
    Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion), and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through. I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    NOTE: Still a global 3 Second Cooldown on Powerlash

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgable)

    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgable it will be very difficult to land)

    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds.

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    Keep this forum constructive.

    Lets hope DKs get some love before the patch drops!

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert






    This is just my personal opinion but take it how you will.

    I've seen EXTENSIVE post over the past 3-5 years (I forget how long we're going on now) of lots of good potentially great ideas for changes to DK & specifically magdk
    The problem I'm seeing is that I have yet to see any of these post for ANY other class!
    How do you guys expect anyone to not see this as biased if the whole point is to make balance better? I'm not saying zenimax's changes are the best, but you're not giving them any options by only discussing one class rather than going through all the classes & explaining all changes that need to be made & why.

    If Zenimax implemented half of the changes I've seen mentioned over the years magdk would easily be the supreme ruler of cyrodiil without a doubt! If for no other reason than the dk community giving very specific detail for making abilities work perfectly!

    Personally I'm not great at testing, math, etc... but just saying if you want people to take you seriously then tell everyone how each class should be balanced rather than just talking about one specific class. Otherwise other classes are just going to look at these threads thinking you're a bunch of biased dk whiners.

    Please don't derail this thread with your "stop asking for your class to be balanced" rhetoric.

    I'm part of a thread of Templars who are asking for the very same types of fixes except ZOS responded and listened to at least some of our feedback over there. We didn't post over there how other classes should be aided or balanced because that would be tedious and ridiculous.

    MAYBE the reason you see all these magDK threads is because the other classes have NEVER been continuously focused with nerfs and unnecessary changes as often as magDK?

    You have literally no idea what you're talking about it seems, so please move on from this thread and allow us constructive posters the venue for legitimate discussion.

    Cool story bro, tell me more about how magblade has had working cloak & shade for years, we don't even have time to talk about "awesome upgrades" b/c we're too busy getting our "basic skills" to work.

    Magdk has been the direct counter to magblade since inception, not to mention magdk "ruled the roost" for at least the first & maybe 2nd years of the game.
    They've nerfed the heal on funnel & sap, they've changed the way cloak works 15 different times, they've nerfed sustain from siphoning attacks (from what it use to be), they increased the cost of funnel, & the cost of soul harvest ult all because people complained about stam users, they even took agony away.
    Tell me more how idk anything about the nerf wagon & poor magdk is just so helpless & being picked on.

    My bad for talking about another class in this post but my whole point is that these specific threads shouldn't be a thing. There should be another way to talk about balance by creating threads based on mechanics like "the gap closer thread", "the cc thread", etc... something where fair comparisons can be made for more of a "true balance".
    Member of:
    Fantasia - osh kosh b-josh
    Just Chill - Crown's house
    GoldCloaks - Durruthy test server penga
    Small Meme Guild - Mano's house

    Former member of:
    Legend - Siffer fan boy club
    TKO (tamriel knight's order) - free bks
    Deviance - Leonard's senche tiger
    Purple - hamNchz is my hero
    Eight Divines - myrlifax stop playing final fantasy
    WKB (we kill bosses) - turd where you go?
    Arcance Council - Klytz Kommander
    World Boss - Mike & Chewy gone EP
    M12 (majestic twelve) - cult of the loli zerg
  • FlamingBeard
    FlamingBeard
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    kaithuzar wrote: »
    kaithuzar wrote: »
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion), and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through. I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    NOTE: Still a global 3 Second Cooldown on Powerlash

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgable)

    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgable it will be very difficult to land)

    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds.

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    Keep this forum constructive.

    Lets hope DKs get some love before the patch drops!

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert






    This is just my personal opinion but take it how you will.

    I've seen EXTENSIVE post over the past 3-5 years (I forget how long we're going on now) of lots of good potentially great ideas for changes to DK & specifically magdk
    The problem I'm seeing is that I have yet to see any of these post for ANY other class!
    How do you guys expect anyone to not see this as biased if the whole point is to make balance better? I'm not saying zenimax's changes are the best, but you're not giving them any options by only discussing one class rather than going through all the classes & explaining all changes that need to be made & why.

    If Zenimax implemented half of the changes I've seen mentioned over the years magdk would easily be the supreme ruler of cyrodiil without a doubt! If for no other reason than the dk community giving very specific detail for making abilities work perfectly!

    Personally I'm not great at testing, math, etc... but just saying if you want people to take you seriously then tell everyone how each class should be balanced rather than just talking about one specific class. Otherwise other classes are just going to look at these threads thinking you're a bunch of biased dk whiners.

    Please don't derail this thread with your "stop asking for your class to be balanced" rhetoric.

    I'm part of a thread of Templars who are asking for the very same types of fixes except ZOS responded and listened to at least some of our feedback over there. We didn't post over there how other classes should be aided or balanced because that would be tedious and ridiculous.

    MAYBE the reason you see all these magDK threads is because the other classes have NEVER been continuously focused with nerfs and unnecessary changes as often as magDK?

    You have literally no idea what you're talking about it seems, so please move on from this thread and allow us constructive posters the venue for legitimate discussion.

    Cool story bro, tell me more about how magblade has had working cloak & shade for years, we don't even have time to talk about "awesome upgrades" b/c we're too busy getting our "basic skills" to work.

    Magdk has been the direct counter to magblade since inception, not to mention magdk "ruled the roost" for at least the first & maybe 2nd years of the game.
    They've nerfed the heal on funnel & sap, they've changed the way cloak works 15 different times, they've nerfed sustain from siphoning attacks (from what it use to be), they increased the cost of funnel, & the cost of soul harvest ult all because people complained about stam users, they even took agony away.
    Tell me more how idk anything about the nerf wagon & poor magdk is just so helpless & being picked on.

    My bad for talking about another class in this post but my whole point is that these specific threads shouldn't be a thing. There should be another way to talk about balance by creating threads based on mechanics like "the gap closer thread", "the cc thread", etc... something where fair comparisons can be made for more of a "true balance".

    ZOS themselves started the trend of Class-Specific PTS patch threads for more in-depth discussions.

    It has been standard procedure for a year now.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.

    Do you want all classes to look like each other? So it's best to end classes.

    One thing is classes looking similar other thing is a class with useless passives like health regen or increased status dmg (which depends on RGN)

    That's not 2018 ESO, not even 2014... that's close to a beta of the game. Why it has come live and stayed the same for so long? IDK...
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.

    I see it the other why around, why would you use Talons if Power lash is dodgeable? More than a telegraph is a direct shot at your feet.

    To proc power lash you need to use talons and the way to run away from talons is dodgeroll, so after you use talons, you flame lash the enemy, he dodge rolls and then your' powerlash hit's the air.

    Then you suggest to use leap before power lash but we are talking about leap, the buggiest ulti.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    @Savos_Saren

    Battle Roar (Passive)
    • When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
    If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.

    Are you trolling kid? What's the point on calling Battle roar to this discusion?

    So, we should increase the cost of all other classes skills that have means to recover stam and magicja using resources since they are way cheaper than ulti = DKs should have a cost reduction.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • BroanBeast1215
    BroanBeast1215
    ✭✭✭
    kaithuzar wrote: »
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion), and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through. I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    NOTE: Still a global 3 Second Cooldown on Powerlash

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgable)

    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgable it will be very difficult to land)

    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds.

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    Keep this forum constructive.

    Lets hope DKs get some love before the patch drops!

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert






    This is just my personal opinion but take it how you will.

    I've seen EXTENSIVE post over the past 3-5 years (I forget how long we're going on now) of lots of good potentially great ideas for changes to DK & specifically magdk
    The problem I'm seeing is that I have yet to see any of these post for ANY other class!
    How do you guys expect anyone to not see this as biased if the whole point is to make balance better? I'm not saying zenimax's changes are the best, but you're not giving them any options by only discussing one class rather than going through all the classes & explaining all changes that need to be made & why.

    If Zenimax implemented half of the changes I've seen mentioned over the years magdk would easily be the supreme ruler of cyrodiil without a doubt! If for no other reason than the dk community giving very specific detail for making abilities work perfectly!

    Personally I'm not great at testing, math, etc... but just saying if you want people to take you seriously then tell everyone how each class should be balanced rather than just talking about one specific class. Otherwise other classes are just going to look at these threads thinking you're a bunch of biased dk whiners.

    Please don't derail this thread with your "stop asking for your class to be balanced" rhetoric.

    I'm part of a thread of Templars who are asking for the very same types of fixes except ZOS responded and listened to at least some of our feedback over there. We didn't post over there how other classes should be aided or balanced because that would be tedious and ridiculous.

    MAYBE the reason you see all these magDK threads is because the other classes have NEVER been continuously focused with nerfs and unnecessary changes as often as magDK?

    You have literally no idea what you're talking about it seems, so please move on from this thread and allow us constructive posters the venue for legitimate discussion.
    you're quite delusional if you think other classes haven't been the focus of constant nerfs in the past.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    brtomkin wrote: »
    beetleklee wrote: »
    I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.

    Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.

    @joaaocaampos

    Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
    Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
    Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
    Scorch (AOE): 3240
    Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590

    I support balance.

    Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.

    Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
    also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.


    EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
    Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
    avg winters revenge = 4-5k
    avg twisting path = 4-5k
    avg ash cloud = 2-3k

    Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.

    Twisting patch gives you major exp and refreshing also heal...
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.

    I see it the other why around, why would you use Talons if Power lash is dodgeable? More than a telegraph is a direct shot at your feet.

    To proc power lash you need to use talons and the way to run away from talons is dodgeroll, so after you use talons, you flame lash the enemy, he dodge rolls and then your' powerlash hit's the air.

    Then you suggest to use leap before power lash but we are talking about leap, the buggiest ulti.

    What compels you to use Power Lash right after that Flame Lash? Patience :smiley:

    In fact, if you've got Talons slotted (I don't) you can still guarantee a Power Lash lands by going Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash.


    There's lots of ways around the changes coming in this update.


    How is leap the buggiest ulti btw? Just curious, it has worked just fine for me so far.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds.

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)


    I don't think wings is too expensive, as its still one of the best and pretty much the only true reflect in the game but i will agree that major expedition as an option for the other morph of wings should be a thing. would be a good option between more return damage and more mobility, the minor resistance the other morph gives isn't enough atm to make it competitive with the increased return damage from dragon fire scales.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.

    I see it the other why around, why would you use Talons if Power lash is dodgeable? More than a telegraph is a direct shot at your feet.

    To proc power lash you need to use talons and the way to run away from talons is dodgeroll, so after you use talons, you flame lash the enemy, he dodge rolls and then your' powerlash hit's the air.

    Then you suggest to use leap before power lash but we are talking about leap, the buggiest ulti.

    What compels you to use Power Lash right after that Flame Lash? Patience :smiley:

    In fact, if you've got Talons slotted (I don't) you can still guarantee a Power Lash lands by going Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash.


    There's lots of ways around the changes coming in this update.


    How is leap the buggiest ulti btw? Just curious, it has worked just fine for me so far.

    Ok, first of all, lash is DK spammable, I'm quite sure you agree with that. Second, as any spammable in an environment full of lag, you must hit not only once, but twice to make work the skill unless you have a great PING. So controlling your lashes becomes harder as long as you get closer to the lag.

    Can you have patience in those conditions? Consider that you are not facing a bot like in PVE but a sentient being, so if any DK comes closer and talons me, I just need to block, then dodgeroll.


    Regarding the Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash suggestion, don't you get CC immunity after dodgerolling from talons?
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.

    I see it the other why around, why would you use Talons if Power lash is dodgeable? More than a telegraph is a direct shot at your feet.

    To proc power lash you need to use talons and the way to run away from talons is dodgeroll, so after you use talons, you flame lash the enemy, he dodge rolls and then your' powerlash hit's the air.

    Then you suggest to use leap before power lash but we are talking about leap, the buggiest ulti.

    What compels you to use Power Lash right after that Flame Lash? Patience :smiley:

    In fact, if you've got Talons slotted (I don't) you can still guarantee a Power Lash lands by going Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash.


    There's lots of ways around the changes coming in this update.


    How is leap the buggiest ulti btw? Just curious, it has worked just fine for me so far.

    Ok, first of all, lash is DK spammable, I'm quite sure you agree with that. Second, as any spammable in an environment full of lag, you must hit not only once, but twice to make work the skill unless you have a great PING. So controlling your lashes becomes harder as long as you get closer to the lag.

    Can you have patience in those conditions? Consider that you are not facing a bot like in PVE but a sentient being, so if any DK comes closer and talons me, I just need to block, then dodgeroll.


    Regarding the Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash suggestion, don't you get CC immunity after dodgerolling from talons?

    You don't get cc immune from dodgerolling, you get root immunity. They are separate so you can hard cc after someone dodgerolls. Also, can't very well balance the game around your ping issues.
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.

    I see it the other why around, why would you use Talons if Power lash is dodgeable? More than a telegraph is a direct shot at your feet.

    To proc power lash you need to use talons and the way to run away from talons is dodgeroll, so after you use talons, you flame lash the enemy, he dodge rolls and then your' powerlash hit's the air.

    Then you suggest to use leap before power lash but we are talking about leap, the buggiest ulti.

    What compels you to use Power Lash right after that Flame Lash? Patience :smiley:

    In fact, if you've got Talons slotted (I don't) you can still guarantee a Power Lash lands by going Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash.


    There's lots of ways around the changes coming in this update.


    How is leap the buggiest ulti btw? Just curious, it has worked just fine for me so far.

    Ok, first of all, lash is DK spammable, I'm quite sure you agree with that. Second, as any spammable in an environment full of lag, you must hit not only once, but twice to make work the skill unless you have a great PING. So controlling your lashes becomes harder as long as you get closer to the lag.

    Can you have patience in those conditions? Consider that you are not facing a bot like in PVE but a sentient being, so if any DK comes closer and talons me, I just need to block, then dodgeroll.


    Regarding the Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash suggestion, don't you get CC immunity after dodgerolling from talons?

    You don't get cc immune from dodgerolling, you get root immunity. They are separate so you can hard cc after someone dodgerolls. Also, can't very well balance the game around your ping issues.

    Ping issue was an example on how some suggestions cannot be applied to all players.

    But you're right, without a ping under 150 I shouldn't be playing this. I hope ZoS is still able to refund me after these 4 years.
    The biggest problem within this game is the lack imagination on its player base and its developers...
    DragonKNIGHT KNIGHT!!!! not Dragonscoundrel, neither Dragonarcher....
    ― Our enemy was bold so we were bolder... our enemy was strong so we were stronger...

    ― Then, why did you lose?

    ― Our enemy was stupid...
    Get rid of poison on DKs...
  • ak_pvp
    ak_pvp
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    This may be biased, but it is my opinion on flame lash's dodgabliltiy. Whilst it was indeed a fixed bug, I would prefer it to be undodgable for the following reasons:

    It is the "defacto execute" of the DK class, being similar in function to beam and fury in its reliable hard finishing hit.

    It has many counters already; Range being a large one for DK as a whole, but more active ones such as shuffle or FM denying the use of roots in the first place, immo pots/immunity stopping hard CC and even if both of those can go through, if you can break free fast enough, roll, or mist, then you can either ignore the offbalance from normal lash, or normal lash itself, meaning that powerlash cannot proc on target. Adding another counter after both others have been setup causes a large waste of resources into a 3s cooldown.

    As balance, it could instead go back to 5s, or consume offbalance even if it doesn't stun.

    Embers should be kept as is though, (dodgable) maybe a possiblity of increasing the range to 8m for QoL. Its hard to use against mobile/far targets, for example in HOF platforms it is very hard to use without falling off, and due to having to move from the AOE it is a high DPS loss.

    Thanks :)
    Edited by ak_pvp on February 1, 2018 7:26PM
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Bakkagami
    Bakkagami
    ✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    Bakkagami wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Was it really necessary to create thread number... 11? 12?

    Why not post in the existing ones rather than flooding the forum with these mDK threads?

    Weren’t you the one complaining that the devs wouldn’t pay attention to the previous threads because they were whiney?

    End of that subject now, please.

    Post constructive feedback to the orginal post.

    Ok.
    It is clear the combat devs want more skills to be dodgeable and blockable. With the recent changes to both of these skills, magicka dragonknights will have a much tougher time landing these skills against other players. A significant drop in sustain/healing will be very noticable against dodgeroll centric builds, passive dodge (shuffle/evasion),

    Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).

    Whether you actually deal damage with it or not has no bearing on sustain, only how much magicka/second you spend does (which will be less, if every 3s you use a free ability).

    Also, on PTS you still get the heal portion even if you miss with the Power Lash (tested). Not sure if this is intended.
    Also the heal duration is 4s rather than 2s (again, not sure if intended).

    Which means healing is better after these changes.

    There is no significant drop in sustain/healing, there is a significant increase.
    and stamina players with trollking who can now dodge damage they could previously heal through.

    Obligatory fact check: Half True. No medium armor build can heal through the damage done by high dmg mDK.
    Many have tried, all have failed. Damage from S&B tank DKs, different story.
    I have listed a few suggestions that could significantly improve a few dragonknight skills while keeping them balanced and stay within the combat devs vision for dodging.

    Powerlash And Searing Strike


    Powerlash:


    Give Flamelash a 50% chance to proc Powerlash by itself, and keep its ability to proc from the offbalance provided from talons and petrify.

    (Reason: A lot of Magicka Dragonknight players have said that talons easily telegraphs your powerlash and is a huge drain on your magicka pool. This change would still keep flamelash at a 3 second cooldown but would not force players to waste magicka on talons and would allow them to perform a combo that is not easily telegraphed by "talons" while still keeping the skill balanced and dodgeable)

    Right. Except Power Lash isn't "telegraphed", it's an instant cast ability. What you probably mean is that an opponent anticipates it, which means you're playing predictably.

    Instead of Talons->Flame Lash->Power Lash, try Talons->Flame Lash->Leap(catch them mid-dodge roll)->Power Lash, or use some time to refresh DoTs/buffs before using the Power Lash.


    There is absolutely no need to buff the ability further, 3s cooldown is already basically nothing (you can cast one or two skills in-between or dodge roll once before next proc is up). What it sounds like is that you want to spam Power Lash, which is exactly what the cooldown was made to prevent.
    Searing Strike:

    Give all morphs of this ability a 8 m range so that it is in line with melee ranged abilities such as flame lash and petrify.

    (Reason: 5 m is shorter than most melee ranged attacks and now that it is dodgeable it will be very difficult to land)

    I can get behind that.
    Other Skills:

    Reflective Scale (Wings)

    Give all morphs of reflective scales major expedition for 10 seconds

    (Reason: It is a very high cost ability compared to shimmering shield that also returns magicka and ulti. Dragonknights need more mobility plain and simple and with a near 4000 magicka cost ability, I think adding major expedition justified)

    I doubt Major Expedition would accomplish much. If it were that simple to "fix DK mobility", people would just run speed potions instead and have a free permanent uptime on it.

    This morph does need buffing though, as it's extremely weak compared to the other one. Perhaps it could reflect snares back at the people who cast them? :lol:

    Explain to me how else you’re suppose to get Power Lashes except the extremely telegraphy way of rooting or CCing someone as you Flame Lash them?

    I think there's a misunderstanding of the word "telegraph". Telegraph means you know when an ability is going to land (e.g. Selene bear appearing 1s before the hit lands is a "telegraph"). Root/CC isn't a telegraph for anything but Flame Lash (if target isn't Off Balance), and not even for that really because people often Fossilize->Leap too. When you actually spend that Power Lash charge is up to you (if you think opponent is going to dodge, don't).
    KaiserKnight suggested that Power Lash be able to proc outside of off-balance, keeping the 3 second cooldown still.

    Guaranteed Power Lash with off-balance, only a chance to Power Lash without off-balance. If Power Lash occurs under either of these conditions, a shared 3 second cooldown activates. Understand?

    It would help sustain because you wouldn’t be forced to use Talons (extremely costly to use often) every other instant to get burst damage on a target.

    He never said that he wants to spam Power Lash... like at all in the original post, it’s not even implied.

    Aha, gotcha. Still not a fan of that idea though, I feel like it'd dumb down the class and make gameplay less skill oriented.

    It'd be like a stamblade asking Surprise Attack to stun/off balance target even from outside of stealth.


    I for one really enjoy these conditional effects as they add depth to the gameplay.

    I see it the other why around, why would you use Talons if Power lash is dodgeable? More than a telegraph is a direct shot at your feet.

    To proc power lash you need to use talons and the way to run away from talons is dodgeroll, so after you use talons, you flame lash the enemy, he dodge rolls and then your' powerlash hit's the air.

    Then you suggest to use leap before power lash but we are talking about leap, the buggiest ulti.

    What compels you to use Power Lash right after that Flame Lash? Patience :smiley:

    In fact, if you've got Talons slotted (I don't) you can still guarantee a Power Lash lands by going Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash.


    There's lots of ways around the changes coming in this update.


    How is leap the buggiest ulti btw? Just curious, it has worked just fine for me so far.

    Ok, first of all, lash is DK spammable, I'm quite sure you agree with that. Second, as any spammable in an environment full of lag, you must hit not only once, but twice to make work the skill unless you have a great PING. So controlling your lashes becomes harder as long as you get closer to the lag.

    Can you have patience in those conditions? Consider that you are not facing a bot like in PVE but a sentient being, so if any DK comes closer and talons me, I just need to block, then dodgeroll.


    Regarding the Talons->Flame Lash->Fossilize->Power Lash suggestion, don't you get CC immunity after dodgerolling from talons?

    You don't get cc immune from dodgerolling, you get root immunity. They are separate so you can hard cc after someone dodgerolls. Also, can't very well balance the game around your ping issues.

    Ping issue was an example on how some suggestions cannot be applied to all players.

    But you're right, without a ping under 150 I shouldn't be playing this. I hope ZoS is still able to refund me after these 4 years.

    so wait, you payed 60 dollars for a game... played it for 4 yrs... and want a refund? That's beyond laughable.In that case, I want a refund on my PSX.
  • Irylia
    Irylia
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Should help a little, though based on my PTS testing fights vs dodge rollers are still incredibly onesided in favour of the mDK.

    Sometimes it just feels like we are playing a different game:

    9QopxJ.png

    Looks like DoT tick, heavy attack, DoT tick. What is that picture supposed to prove? Besides that whoever you're fighting has extremely low weapon damage (or you were way above execute range). My Flame Lash hits harder than that Rev Slice lol

    He removed a freshly cast 12k healing ward along with a quarter of my hitpoints in 170 milliseconds. And this is a fight incredibly onesided in my favor?

    Yes, because that 6,9k was either Shalks, a heavy attack or POTL going off. That's not spammable damage and the total damage you took (16 688) is easily survivable. Next step: Fossilize->FL->Leap->PL->dead stam build.

    If you were to Healing Ward again after that, the Healing Ward would also be significantly stronger (as it also scales based on missing health).

    Next step: I am already dead. That reverse slice was the killing blow.

    Something you're doing wrong then.

    25k health, 61 Ironclad, 27 Hardy 48% Crit Resistance <unburstable in 1v1

    You're not taking into account that the better stamina builds will have defiles and snares aplenty, which completely negates what little movement magDK has, as well as its poor healing under pressure.

    You keep repeating this magical fantasy scenario where the build you're fighting has 2k weapon damage and 70%+ weapon crit somehow.

    Raw damage is much more powerful than crit in CP PvP and magDK is especially vulnerable to it in light armor.

    No, that's unburstable as in vs 5x Spriggan, 5x Alchemist, 1x Kra'gh & 1x Kena (highest dmg gank setup I could calculate).


    Resto builds don't care about Defile since they've got Healing Ward.


    I get hit by Assassin's Will->Incap followed by Surprise Attack/Killer's Blade, I live, I Healing Ward (or resto ulti if it's a 1vX fight)->Fossilize->FL->PL->fight is already over.


    Haven't lost a single 1v1 against a medium armor build, haven't seen any live over 20-30 seconds either during the 400-500'ish hours I've played PvP this patch.
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Should help a little, though based on my PTS testing fights vs dodge rollers are still incredibly onesided in favour of the mDK.

    Sometimes it just feels like we are playing a different game:

    9QopxJ.png

    Looks like DoT tick, heavy attack, DoT tick. What is that picture supposed to prove? Besides that whoever you're fighting has extremely low weapon damage (or you were way above execute range). My Flame Lash hits harder than that Rev Slice lol

    He removed a freshly cast 12k healing ward along with a quarter of my hitpoints in 170 milliseconds. And this is a fight incredibly onesided in my favor?

    Yes, because that 6,9k was either Shalks, a heavy attack or POTL going off. That's not spammable damage and the total damage you took (16 688) is easily survivable. Next step: Fossilize->FL->Leap->PL->dead stam build.

    If you were to Healing Ward again after that, the Healing Ward would also be significantly stronger (as it also scales based on missing health).

    Next step: I am already dead. That reverse slice was the killing blow.

    Something you're doing wrong then.

    25k health, 61 Ironclad, 27 Hardy 48% Crit Resistance <unburstable in 1v1

    24.5K health, 56 ironclad(so 1% worse than you), 43 hardy(3% better than you), a bit less crit resistance (2757) but most of the damage was against a shield anyway.

    What player was that? I can promise you I can beat that player in less than 20 seconds if he's medium armor (not heavy). I'll give away all my 10 million gold if I don't.

    Because it's not even theoretically possible to burst down a mDK with that setup. You have to mess up in a big way to lose to a medium armor scrub.

    I nominate kiri, pc na’s medium stamplar to duel you.

    Don’t play like a *** spamming heal ward/resto ult either just to live longer than 30 seconds.

    I’ll also line up sloban, dubzug, ephtacy and bill nye.
    Good luck, may your bow Bow blade experience guide you.
    Edited by Irylia on February 1, 2018 7:48PM
    Founder: Animosity (Best Guild NA + EU)

    Youtube - TeAiry

    Alpha Sorc:
    Irylia - DC sorcerer rank 46
    Iraliia - EP sorcerer rank 41

    The two time 3rd place Legend duelist (16k hp all divines btw)
  • Derra
    Derra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I´m really excited now.

    When will we get the high noon exposed videos?
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Irylia wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Should help a little, though based on my PTS testing fights vs dodge rollers are still incredibly onesided in favour of the mDK.

    Sometimes it just feels like we are playing a different game:

    9QopxJ.png

    Looks like DoT tick, heavy attack, DoT tick. What is that picture supposed to prove? Besides that whoever you're fighting has extremely low weapon damage (or you were way above execute range). My Flame Lash hits harder than that Rev Slice lol

    He removed a freshly cast 12k healing ward along with a quarter of my hitpoints in 170 milliseconds. And this is a fight incredibly onesided in my favor?

    Yes, because that 6,9k was either Shalks, a heavy attack or POTL going off. That's not spammable damage and the total damage you took (16 688) is easily survivable. Next step: Fossilize->FL->Leap->PL->dead stam build.

    If you were to Healing Ward again after that, the Healing Ward would also be significantly stronger (as it also scales based on missing health).

    Next step: I am already dead. That reverse slice was the killing blow.

    Something you're doing wrong then.

    25k health, 61 Ironclad, 27 Hardy 48% Crit Resistance <unburstable in 1v1

    You're not taking into account that the better stamina builds will have defiles and snares aplenty, which completely negates what little movement magDK has, as well as its poor healing under pressure.

    You keep repeating this magical fantasy scenario where the build you're fighting has 2k weapon damage and 70%+ weapon crit somehow.

    Raw damage is much more powerful than crit in CP PvP and magDK is especially vulnerable to it in light armor.

    No, that's unburstable as in vs 5x Spriggan, 5x Alchemist, 1x Kra'gh & 1x Kena (highest dmg gank setup I could calculate).


    Resto builds don't care about Defile since they've got Healing Ward.


    I get hit by Assassin's Will->Incap followed by Surprise Attack/Killer's Blade, I live, I Healing Ward (or resto ulti if it's a 1vX fight)->Fossilize->FL->PL->fight is already over.


    Haven't lost a single 1v1 against a medium armor build, haven't seen any live over 20-30 seconds either during the 400-500'ish hours I've played PvP this patch.
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Should help a little, though based on my PTS testing fights vs dodge rollers are still incredibly onesided in favour of the mDK.

    Sometimes it just feels like we are playing a different game:

    9QopxJ.png

    Looks like DoT tick, heavy attack, DoT tick. What is that picture supposed to prove? Besides that whoever you're fighting has extremely low weapon damage (or you were way above execute range). My Flame Lash hits harder than that Rev Slice lol

    He removed a freshly cast 12k healing ward along with a quarter of my hitpoints in 170 milliseconds. And this is a fight incredibly onesided in my favor?

    Yes, because that 6,9k was either Shalks, a heavy attack or POTL going off. That's not spammable damage and the total damage you took (16 688) is easily survivable. Next step: Fossilize->FL->Leap->PL->dead stam build.

    If you were to Healing Ward again after that, the Healing Ward would also be significantly stronger (as it also scales based on missing health).

    Next step: I am already dead. That reverse slice was the killing blow.

    Something you're doing wrong then.

    25k health, 61 Ironclad, 27 Hardy 48% Crit Resistance <unburstable in 1v1

    24.5K health, 56 ironclad(so 1% worse than you), 43 hardy(3% better than you), a bit less crit resistance (2757) but most of the damage was against a shield anyway.

    What player was that? I can promise you I can beat that player in less than 20 seconds if he's medium armor (not heavy). I'll give away all my 10 million gold if I don't.

    Because it's not even theoretically possible to burst down a mDK with that setup. You have to mess up in a big way to lose to a medium armor scrub.

    I nominate kiri, pc na’s medium stamplar to duel you.

    Don’t play like a *** spamming heal ward/resto ult either just to live longer than 30 seconds.

    I’ll also line up sloban, dubzug, ephtacy and bill nye.
    Good luck, may your bow Bow blade experience guide you.

    All at the same time? They'd stand a good chance.

    Alone, 1v1? No, not vs my mDK. And it's not because I'm some uber player or anything, don't get me wrong - it's just how broken a destro/resto high dmg mDK is against medium armor currently.

    I can play against the top EU duelers, probably lose 90%+ of fights against them when they're in Troll King+Heavy Armor bleed builds etc, but whenever I see these people in Cyrodiil in their rollerblade setups, I'm literally 1vX'ing them.

    That's how broken a high dmg destro/resto mDK is on Live, and having dueled some excellent medium armor players there, I can safely say it's still hugely favoured to win on PTS even with the dodge changes.


    I'll be testing more starting next Monday when they fix the CC issues (hopefully), so anyone who doesn't fully understand the power mDK has over dodge roll builds can find me there.
    Edited by DDuke on February 1, 2018 9:39PM
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • krathos
    krathos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?
    Flapjack Palmdale
    <ANIMOSITY>

    Grand Overlord - Magicka Dragonknight
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    Well, I die less often to the heavy armor bleed builds in PTS thanks to the cooldown reduction on Power Lash (those builds generally don't dodge at all), having those PL heals up almost 24/7 helps immensely in mitigating the bleeds, so you don't drop into kill range so easily.

    That's why I think the changes are excellent in this update: better fights vs dodge rollers, better fights vs heavy armor bleed builds, dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.


    But yeah, I do realize that's just my build I'm talking about and there's plenty of others.

    So what ZOS should do is buff skills used by other builds, if the changes in this update make dodge rollers too hard to kill for tankier builds with less dmg.

    I think it'd be very simple; just significantly buffing Ash Cloud radius & making the damage ramp up the longer someone stays in it (meaning big, bursty ticks if someone stands in it say, 5 seconds) could make the more stationary tank DK very strong against those melee builds, but that skill still wouldn't be slotted by destro/resto DKs who like to move around & stick to people with Chains.

    That's a win-win situation.


    The worst thing they can do is roll back the changes, because then we're back at square one & I do think the Off Balance/Power Lash changes are overall a buff to mDK, even S&B ones.
    Decimus (European Megaserver)
  • Ultimate_Overlord
    Ultimate_Overlord
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »

    Should help a little, though based on my PTS testing fights vs dodge rollers are still incredibly onesided in favour of the mDK.

    Sometimes it just feels like we are playing a different game:

    9QopxJ.png

    Looks like DoT tick, heavy attack, DoT tick. What is that picture supposed to prove? Besides that whoever you're fighting has extremely low weapon damage (or you were way above execute range). My Flame Lash hits harder than that Rev Slice lol

    He removed a freshly cast 12k healing ward along with a quarter of my hitpoints in 170 milliseconds. And this is a fight incredibly onesided in my favor?

    The second is not a dot tick by the way, look at the timestamp, it's the portion of the reverse slice that was still absorbed by the remaining shield.

    So what's the point of this post?

    That is not some magical happenstance that only happens to Mag DKs.

    magDKs are more vulnerable to pressure because they have no self-sufficient mobility, only an iffy gap closer and an ultimate gap closer.

    They have nothing to escape with aside from Elusive Mist which you can still be snared during so it's pretty much the worst mobility skill you can be limited to using.

    Dodgerollers shouldn't have any worse of a time fighting a magDK unless the dodgerollers only build for damage, which a lot of dodgerollers do and then become upset when they die due to their squishy build which has a lot of damage but is vulnerable to revenge kills.

    Tell that to all the 3-4k regen stamblades and brass builds on other classes that make up 99% of open world medium builds that dont sit in sneak the majority of the time.
    Edited by Ultimate_Overlord on February 2, 2018 7:02AM
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    krathos wrote: »
    "duel me bro" ya except nobody is arguing that DK is bad in duels. We're arguing that the open world toolkit has been continuously watered down and could use some attention as DK was designed to work with several systems/mechanics that are no longer viable. You're even saying that these players who are in roll builds beat you 90% of the time if they just switch builds. So why is so terrible that we continue to discuss the weaknesses of both stamina and magicka DK asking for direction from ZOS regarding their vision for the class?

    So not being able to 1vX top players is a DK issue now?
    Main characters:
    Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 41 - Stormproof (PC EU)
    Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)

    Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial Necromancer (lvl 8)
    Fearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)
    Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)
    Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDK
    Valirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBlade
    Turuna - AD Altmer magBlade
    Kheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDK
    Kibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - Stormproof
    Yavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWarden
    Azog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWarden
    Vidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDK
    Marquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - Stormproof
    Rawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWarden
    Tu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar

    All chars 50 @ CP 1000+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on Bahlokdaan PC EU.
  • Derra
    Derra
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    DDuke wrote: »
    dmg shield builds (e.g. pet sorcs etc) - it's just generally more balanced across the board.

    You´re going to have a really bad time against petsorcs probably.
    Attro is getting buffed quite a bit for duels (20% dmg increase in my personal tests)
    Petrecast won´t be interruptable.
    Petsorc is the only sorc spec running with doubledestro + lightning wall on offbar providing them with off-balance + stun on lightning channel.
    And the new stamina monsterset (maim + defile) is absolutely broken for petsorc if you try to kill them.
    Edited by Derra on February 2, 2018 7:23AM
    <Noricum>
    I live. I die. I live again.

    Derra - DC - Sorc - Grand Overlord - Spotless Dro-m'Athra Destroyer pre one Tamriel
    Derrah - EP - Sorc - Grand Overlord
    ... - DC - NB

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